Type of Atheist/Agnostic Belief? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

luckynumber · 07-19-2003, 11:15 AM

I usually don't venture to this part of the board (i try to stay away from religious arguments ... they usually lead to some sort of Crusade or Mass Geonocide) But anyways, i have been reading many of the "what is an atheist"/"atheist question" ect. posts. I have never believed that the reason for atheism was solely a non-belief in God, although that may make up a large part of it.

Anyways, for me, the reason I am an atheist is not really because I don't believe in God (ok ok, that is a main part of it) but rather that I don't believe in religion. I disagree with a lot of what happens to people when they become religious. Usually feelings of superiority ensue, arrogance, prejudice, harm towards others, imposing their beliefs upon others. All of this i can do without.

I was wondering If any of the Atheists / Agnostics (or any other type of religion) have a reason alike to mine for why they stay away from Religion?

Jasmar · 07-19-2003, 01:17 PM

Im agnostic just because I've never found a religon that went along with my veiws on life, and in my opinion a god who gave us free will shouldn't damn us to hell for not all thinking alike

CSflim · 07-19-2003, 02:02 PM

No. Not all religious people are like those that you have described. There are definately many people who are like that. But the majority of religious people are perfectly normal. For me, my sole reason for not being religious is that....well I don't believe in any such rubbish.

John Henry · 08-10-2003, 01:41 PM

Emotionally I believe in God. I cannot help fearing his wrath and sometimes talking to him. However, I consider this to be a neurosis caused by my religious upbringing. Rationally it doesn't seem very likely to me that God exists. Also, if you read a lot of the stuff in scripture that isn't what the Godbotherers point you to, it really isn't very nice. Since religion has a large effect on how people live or try to live their lives, I don't follow these. And I can't be bothered to research into other religions because all religions seem a bit silly.

sixate · 08-10-2003, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by luckynumber
I was wondering If any of the Atheists / Agnostics (or any other type of religion) have a reason alike to mine for why they stay away from Religion?

Not me. I have never believed in god ever since I was a kid. There's no chance of that changing either. The thought of an invisible man in the sky who created us is absolutely the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard.

anti fishstick · 08-10-2003, 07:08 PM

*shrugs* i just can't tolerate intolerance.

hobo · 08-10-2003, 07:41 PM

My friend's parents somehow got me to go to their church for a year or so when I was like 5 years old. I guess they worked a bit of Christianity into my head. I don't believe in God or that people need religion. I've always been a fairly logical person, good at the sciences. Maybe that is why I couldn't believe in God, even when I was young. It just seemed wrong from the start. I do feel that religious people do feel a sense of superiority. It usually isn't that big or anything, but how can they not feel superior if they think they are going to heaven and I'm going to hell.

Jasmar has a good point. Why would God give people free will, then punish people for thinking differently?

Memalvada · 08-11-2003, 10:36 AM

Im beginning to dislike my religion, so im somewhat confused right now... There's so much bullshit in religion, which I simply dont agree with. I mean, if God gave us free will, then why cant we live our lives the way we want to? why would be condemned to hell if we want to enjoy our lives? Religion places so many restrictions on one's lives which seems very annoying and senseless to me.

... Im catholic, btw.. or at least thats what i have been brought up to be. (which is one of my other issues - i didnt choose to be catholic, or christian, or whatever... I was brought up as one, and have been forced to accept as truth whatever they tell me, which makes me feel like such a brainless sheep sometimes)

anti fishstick · 08-11-2003, 10:41 AM

i know a many ex-catholic. i'm one myself

Memalvada · 08-11-2003, 11:12 AM

what are u now? atheist?

Alchoholic Hero · 08-12-2003, 09:44 AM

Personally, I've just gone through too much Catholic school to be comfortable with any type of organized religion for a long damn time.

TIO · 08-13-2003, 03:02 AM

Organised religion is responsible for a lot of the bad things that have happened in the world, and it's also responsible for a lot of the good things. Likewise, there have been great and terrible atheists throughout history.
Also, I have many religious friends who are better people because of their religions, and aren't any more self-important about them than I am about my beliefs.

No, it's not organised religion that makes me an atheist. I don't think the ways people have interpreted the bible change its truth (or lack thereof); I think it's possible to believe in God in the absence of the Church. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God.

Macheath · 08-13-2003, 07:19 AM

I never had any kind of religious upbringing and I am atheist because I strongly oppose the political element of organised religion, the tendency to societial control.

I think my own natural kind of spirituality may emerge in its own good time and if I need it; but I don't need any church dictating terms.

Beltruckus · 08-13-2003, 10:46 AM

I believe in God but not religion, Why should I have to go to some church where people tell you what to do and how to do it.

"Love one another unless they believe something different than you, then you BURN THEM!!!!"

Basically stopped believing in religion when i read in the newspaper in the opinion secition someone wrote how they weren't Mormons and her son was playing with a mormon boy, and his mother found out that her son wasn't mormon and would not let them play together anymore. Such bullshit it made me sick.

Moonduck · 08-14-2003, 07:02 PM

If you believe in God, you are not an atheist. If you believe in anything non-material, you are not an atheist. If you believe that your spirituality might emerge, you are not an atheist. An atheist believes in nothing that cannot be empirically shown or proven.

A person that believes in a higher power or supreme being but follows no religion is a Deist.

sixate · 08-14-2003, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonduck
If you believe in God, you are not an atheist. If you believe in anything non-material, you are not an atheist. If you believe that your spirituality might emerge, you are not an atheist. An atheist believes in nothing that cannot be empirically shown or proven.

Exactly. Many people say they are atheist, but they believe there is something out there. There's no doubt I'm atheist.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 08-14-2003, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Moonduck
An atheist believes in nothing that cannot be empirically shown or proven.

That's interesting because when i looked up the word atheist it plainly said "One who disbelieves or denies the existence of God or gods."

I'm very curious as to where your definition of an atheist comes from.

Moonduck · 08-14-2003, 08:38 PM

My definition comes from commonly available works of scholarships on atheism, by atheists, etc. Take a trip to www.atheism.org (though it is a redirect to the more provocatively named www.infidels.org) find info on their goal "to defend a nontheistic worldview which holds that the natural world is all that there is, a closed system in no need of supernatural explanation and sufficient unto itself". I don't offer this as an explanation of atheism's existence, but more a very easily obtainable example of prevalent trends in atheist thought. To be frank, I decided to look around and 'www.atheism.org' was the first thing that I thought of as a good starting point.

Looking up through the comments, sixate, an outspoken atheist in many other posts on this boards, seems to concur. I would say that your definition errs on the side of simplicity and bows to space constraints in normal published media. Most online dictionaries are simply electronic versions of actual print dictionaries and thus must keep definitions terse.

I would hope that you do not render a fairly popular and well thought out system of thought such as atheism down to one line. I would certainly feel remiss to describe Christianity, Liberalism, or any other religion or belief/non-belief structure in such an oversimplified way.

Are you simply rebutting to rebutt, or are you an atheist that believes in spooks and the fae?

Mr. Spacemonkey · 08-14-2003, 08:53 PM

First of all i feel as though i should point out that you incorrectly spelled the word rebut (just off the topic).

But anyway, i just feel as though you are making the word atheist out to be way more complicated than it really is. Me, i simply looked it up in websters dictionary. And since it is a dictionary and a dictionary tells me the meaning of a word, i trusted it. Please don't think i'm being a complete ass or anything but i just don't like it when people feel the need to make something more complicated than it really is.

BTW, i'll be honest, i was just rebutting to rebut but does that really matter.

brer lapin · 08-15-2003, 05:35 AM

Atheism does not necessarily require the outright rejection of the existence of god, it simply requires a non-belief. While it seems like the same thing, it really isn't. I consider myself an atheist, because I don't believe in any god or gods. However, I am not prepared to simply dismiss every faith on the planet as being wrong. This does not mean that I am likely to become a religous person, nor does it mean that I am going to change my life style "just in case god is watching." I can acknowledge the possibility of a god without believing in one.

Moonduck · 08-15-2003, 06:26 AM

At least you're being honest. In the spirit of friendliness that such an admission produces, I'll fail to provide tit for tat and ignore any grammar or capitalisation errors in your post.

I can appreciate the drive to simplify, but I prefer to give concepts their due. I'd rather not write something off as easily put into a one sentence pigeonhole. Then again I have a deep and abiding respect for religion in general, and atheism deserves similar treatement to any other religion/philosophy. (Might see some atheists get their knickers in a wad because I've grouped atheism as a religion/philosophy again, oh well)

mjollnir · 08-15-2003, 06:36 AM

I am a Agnostic that leans towards deist, I think we have no way of knowing for sure the nature of God or Gods so that has really led me to be, which is not a religon as much as a philosophy, a Taoist. being a taoist does not go againt any religion you can be a taoist and a christian if you want. This may sound stupid, but when I was in college I had a friend who got me to read the "Tao of Pooh". Read it. it is a good read.

sixate · 08-15-2003, 07:44 PM

This is kinda about what you guys were talking about. There are actually different types of atheists. To me there's only one kind of atheist, and that person believes that there's no god in any way shape or form. PERIOD. Otherwise, you're agnostic. I just think many people don't like to say that they're atheist because many people think negatively about it. I've told people what I was and they would say, "So you worship the devil?!" Then I respond, "No fucking way dumbass. You'll be a devil worshiper before me because you actually believe he exists. I don't believe in any god so why the fuck would I believe in your devil?" Idiots!

LINKY

Quote:

<center>Positive, negative or agnostic?</center>

Atheists do not always assert that God does not exist. There are two broad categories of atheism -

"Positive" (or "strong" or "hard") atheism and "Negative" (or "weak" or "soft") atheism.

A "Positive atheist" will say "God X does not exist", whereas a "Negative atheist" will say "I do not believe God X exists" - there is a subtle but important difference.

Some (if not all) agnostics may also be considered "negative atheists", as they are not theists (there is an overlap between agnosticism and weak atheism). Agnostics (it means "without knowledge") consider the question of God to be unanswerable - there may be a God, or there may not, but we have no way of ever determining the truth of the matter. Occasionally atheists will refer to themselves as agnostics - the term is often more socially acceptable in a strongly religious region, as some theists have an extremely negative view of atheism and automatically assume that all atheists are "positive" atheists.

Depending on the definition of the God in question, the atheist may be either "positive", "negative" or agnostic. Many theists will also have the same reaction towards the deities of other religions. For example, if you give a self-contradictory definition of your God, I will say that it certainly does not exist (like a square circle), but if some group on the other side of the world has a God that I have never even heard of, I am still atheistic towards it as I simply have no belief in it. In that sense, many Christians are also atheists - they just believe in one more God than I do.

Mr. Spacemonkey · 08-15-2003, 07:58 PM

Well, I'll tell you the truth, I've never heard of positive and negative atheism before.

With that said, I'm going to say, soley based on reading this, that it seems to me that the only real difference between positive and negative atheists is that positive atheists are a lot more stubbern than negative atheists.

It seems to me that positive atheists are being a bit ignorant about the whole situation by completely dismissing any possibility whatsoever.

I should say that I don't mean to outright judge them like this, it just seems that way to me after reading it.

07-19-2003, 11:15 AM	#1 (permalink)
luckynumber Banned Location: Dallas	Type of Atheist/Agnostic Belief? I usually don't venture to this part of the board (i try to stay away from religious arguments ... they usually lead to some sort of Crusade or Mass Geonocide) But anyways, i have been reading many of the "what is an atheist"/"atheist question" ect. posts. I have never believed that the reason for atheism was solely a non-belief in God, although that may make up a large part of it. Anyways, for me, the reason I am an atheist is not really because I don't believe in God (ok ok, that is a main part of it) but rather that I don't believe in religion. I disagree with a lot of what happens to people when they become religious. Usually feelings of superiority ensue, arrogance, prejudice, harm towards others, imposing their beliefs upon others. All of this i can do without. I was wondering If any of the Atheists / Agnostics (or any other type of religion) have a reason alike to mine for why they stay away from Religion?

07-19-2003, 02:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	No. Not all religious people are like those that you have described. There are definately many people who are like that. But the majority of religious people are perfectly normal. For me, my sole reason for not being religious is that....well I don't believe in any such rubbish. __________________

08-10-2003, 01:41 PM	#4 (permalink)
John Henry Addict Location: Grey Britain	Emotionally I believe in God. I cannot help fearing his wrath and sometimes talking to him. However, I consider this to be a neurosis caused by my religious upbringing. Rationally it doesn't seem very likely to me that God exists. Also, if you read a lot of the stuff in scripture that isn't what the Godbotherers point you to, it really isn't very nice. Since religion has a large effect on how people live or try to live their lives, I don't follow these. And I can't be bothered to research into other religions because all religions seem a bit silly. __________________ "No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

08-10-2003, 07:08 PM	#6 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	shrugs i just can't tolerate intolerance. __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

08-11-2003, 10:36 AM	#8 (permalink)
Memalvada Psycho Location: South of the border	Im beginning to dislike my religion, so im somewhat confused right now... There's so much bullshit in religion, which I simply dont agree with. I mean, if God gave us free will, then why cant we live our lives the way we want to? why would be condemned to hell if we want to enjoy our lives? Religion places so many restrictions on one's lives which seems very annoying and senseless to me. ... Im catholic, btw.. or at least thats what i have been brought up to be. (which is one of my other issues - i didnt choose to be catholic, or christian, or whatever... I was brought up as one, and have been forced to accept as truth whatever they tell me, which makes me feel like such a brainless sheep sometimes) __________________ "The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK) Last edited by Memalvada; 08-11-2003 at 10:38 AM..

07-19-2003, 01:17 PM	#2 (permalink)
Jasmar Crazy	Im agnostic just because I've never found a religon that went along with my veiws on life, and in my opinion a god who gave us free will shouldn't damn us to hell for not all thinking alike

08-10-2003, 07:41 PM	#7 (permalink)
hobo Archangel of Change	My friend's parents somehow got me to go to their church for a year or so when I was like 5 years old. I guess they worked a bit of Christianity into my head. I don't believe in God or that people need religion. I've always been a fairly logical person, good at the sciences. Maybe that is why I couldn't believe in God, even when I was young. It just seemed wrong from the start. I do feel that religious people do feel a sense of superiority. It usually isn't that big or anything, but how can they not feel superior if they think they are going to heaven and I'm going to hell. Jasmar has a good point. Why would God give people free will, then punish people for thinking differently?

08-11-2003, 10:41 AM	#9 (permalink)
anti fishstick Post-modernism meets Individualism AKA the Clash Location: oregon	i know a many ex-catholic. i'm one myself __________________ And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom. ~Anais Nin

08-11-2003, 11:12 AM	#10 (permalink)
Memalvada Psycho Location: South of the border	what are u now? atheist? __________________ "The weak are food for the strong, so die and let me feast!" - Makoto Shishio (RK)

08-12-2003, 09:44 AM	#11 (permalink)
Alchoholic Hero Upright Location: Providence, RI	Personally, I've just gone through too much Catholic school to be comfortable with any type of organized religion for a long damn time. __________________ Suicide killed many... Drink, and the Devil, did the rest. -Hemmingway.

08-13-2003, 03:02 AM	#12 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	Organised religion is responsible for a lot of the bad things that have happened in the world, and it's also responsible for a lot of the good things. Likewise, there have been great and terrible atheists throughout history. Also, I have many religious friends who are better people because of their religions, and aren't any more self-important about them than I am about my beliefs. No, it's not organised religion that makes me an atheist. I don't think the ways people have interpreted the bible change its truth (or lack thereof); I think it's possible to believe in God in the absence of the Church. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in God. __________________ Strewth

08-13-2003, 07:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I never had any kind of religious upbringing and I am atheist because I strongly oppose the political element of organised religion, the tendency to societial control. I think my own natural kind of spirituality may emerge in its own good time and if I need it; but I don't need any church dictating terms.

08-13-2003, 10:46 AM	#14 (permalink)
Beltruckus Psycho Location: Salt Lake City	I believe in God but not religion, Why should I have to go to some church where people tell you what to do and how to do it. "Love one another unless they believe something different than you, then you BURN THEM!!!!" Basically stopped believing in religion when i read in the newspaper in the opinion secition someone wrote how they weren't Mormons and her son was playing with a mormon boy, and his mother found out that her son wasn't mormon and would not let them play together anymore. Such bullshit it made me sick. __________________ The most important things are the hardest things to say. They are the things you get ashamed of because words diminish your feelings. Words shrink things that seem timeless when they are in your head to no more than living size when they are brought out. -Stephen King

08-14-2003, 07:02 PM	#15 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	If you believe in God, you are not an atheist. If you believe in anything non-material, you are not an atheist. If you believe that your spirituality might emerge, you are not an atheist. An atheist believes in nothing that cannot be empirically shown or proven. A person that believes in a higher power or supreme being but follows no religion is a Deist.

08-14-2003, 08:38 PM	#18 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	My definition comes from commonly available works of scholarships on atheism, by atheists, etc. Take a trip to www.atheism.org (though it is a redirect to the more provocatively named www.infidels.org) find info on their goal "to defend a nontheistic worldview which holds that the natural world is all that there is, a closed system in no need of supernatural explanation and sufficient unto itself". I don't offer this as an explanation of atheism's existence, but more a very easily obtainable example of prevalent trends in atheist thought. To be frank, I decided to look around and 'www.atheism.org' was the first thing that I thought of as a good starting point. Looking up through the comments, sixate, an outspoken atheist in many other posts on this boards, seems to concur. I would say that your definition errs on the side of simplicity and bows to space constraints in normal published media. Most online dictionaries are simply electronic versions of actual print dictionaries and thus must keep definitions terse. I would hope that you do not render a fairly popular and well thought out system of thought such as atheism down to one line. I would certainly feel remiss to describe Christianity, Liberalism, or any other religion or belief/non-belief structure in such an oversimplified way. Are you simply rebutting to rebutt, or are you an atheist that believes in spooks and the fae?

08-14-2003, 08:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	First of all i feel as though i should point out that you incorrectly spelled the word rebut (just off the topic). But anyway, i just feel as though you are making the word atheist out to be way more complicated than it really is. Me, i simply looked it up in websters dictionary. And since it is a dictionary and a dictionary tells me the meaning of a word, i trusted it. Please don't think i'm being a complete ass or anything but i just don't like it when people feel the need to make something more complicated than it really is. BTW, i'll be honest, i was just rebutting to rebut but does that really matter. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko Last edited by Mr. Spacemonkey; 08-14-2003 at 09:14 PM..

08-15-2003, 05:35 AM	#20 (permalink)
brer lapin Upright	Atheism does not necessarily require the outright rejection of the existence of god, it simply requires a non-belief. While it seems like the same thing, it really isn't. I consider myself an atheist, because I don't believe in any god or gods. However, I am not prepared to simply dismiss every faith on the planet as being wrong. This does not mean that I am likely to become a religous person, nor does it mean that I am going to change my life style "just in case god is watching." I can acknowledge the possibility of a god without believing in one.

08-15-2003, 06:26 AM	#21 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	At least you're being honest. In the spirit of friendliness that such an admission produces, I'll fail to provide tit for tat and ignore any grammar or capitalisation errors in your post. I can appreciate the drive to simplify, but I prefer to give concepts their due. I'd rather not write something off as easily put into a one sentence pigeonhole. Then again I have a deep and abiding respect for religion in general, and atheism deserves similar treatement to any other religion/philosophy. (Might see some atheists get their knickers in a wad because I've grouped atheism as a religion/philosophy again, oh well)

08-15-2003, 06:36 AM	#22 (permalink)
mjollnir Tilted Location: Near Gainesville, FL	I am a Agnostic that leans towards deist, I think we have no way of knowing for sure the nature of God or Gods so that has really led me to be, which is not a religon as much as a philosophy, a Taoist. being a taoist does not go againt any religion you can be a taoist and a christian if you want. This may sound stupid, but when I was in college I had a friend who got me to read the "Tao of Pooh". Read it. it is a good read. __________________ Yes I am a Pirate 200 years too late, Cannons don't thunder theres nuthin to plunder I'm an over 30 victim of fate...

08-15-2003, 07:58 PM	#24 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	Well, I'll tell you the truth, I've never heard of positive and negative atheism before. With that said, I'm going to say, soley based on reading this, that it seems to me that the only real difference between positive and negative atheists is that positive atheists are a lot more stubbern than negative atheists. It seems to me that positive atheists are being a bit ignorant about the whole situation by completely dismissing any possibility whatsoever. I should say that I don't mean to outright judge them like this, it just seems that way to me after reading it. __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko Last edited by Mr. Spacemonkey; 08-15-2003 at 08:00 PM..