tiberry

I am...

I am all that there is.

Through me - as me, so shall you know forever.

For-you-are-ever...

There is not which is not me and all that you are, I am.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

Baraka_Guru

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

tiberry

Actually quite the opposite!

The statement "I think, therefore I am." alludes to the perception that you (or whomever invokes the statement) is separate and distinct from me. If I am all there is, then you cannot be separate from me, regardless of your thoughts/perceptions to the contrary.

Hence, the root of my thoughts on this thread. We tend to fear death and feel sad for those that have died - believing that they are somehow "gone" or forever lost from our world, grasp, perception.

I find comfort in my belief that we're all mistakenly (or necessarily) perceiving ourselves as somehow separate and distinct from "all there is".

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

Baraka_Guru

So this is more about Jung's collective unconscious?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

well, no. descartes may have been wrong about alot of stuff, but in the context of the proof in the meditations on first philosophy, that thinking precedes the subject that thinks is not one of them.
the "i" is a process, the result of praxis, not its precondition.
the more problematic move is the separation of thinking from embodiment.
this follows more from the axiom that there is this thing called a soul than anything remotely resembling a coherent account of cognition or cognitive processes.

that as an aside.

death is what happens when movement stops.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

tiberry

Or more aptly stated from my perspective: "Thinking is the separation from the embodiment."

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.

Baraka_Guru

This is moving into the territory of Buddhism and nirvana.

"Thinking" implying an eventual enlightenment, in the Buddhist sense.

The body is impermanence. The mind is eternal.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

how does that follow from a statement that thinking---an embodied process---precedes the "i" (in any particular configuration, any particular situation) ---that "the mind is eternal"?

i mean outside of a superimposing of a buddhist frame onto another?

i ask because it just as easily points to a range of processes that underpin cognition--which you might think of as the pushing of sense-data through the grid of language structures. so a statement like "i see x..." is a result, not a description of the actions implied by it (see what i mean? i can try to be clearer when i have a minute, which i don't now...)

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

*Nikki*

I am very confused about what happens when we die. I am a person who likes a definite answer to things.

roachboy

well, from a certain viewpoint, nothing happens.
i don't know about other possible viewpoints: i'm thinking of going to see the new ricky gervais film in order to check em out.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

LoganSnake

I don't think about it. It is the only certainty in life and I know I will die. I don't care beyond that. My only wish is to die without suffering.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

curiousbear

i hardly understand the sentences here by tiberry & baraka_guru! Partly because of english and may be due to the high levels of abstraction.

I beleive in life and death. Some times I feel that I should suffer to the innermost core in death. For instance I liked the death of William Wallace in the movie Brave Heart. I kind of think a death like that is a strong death. I dont know why I feel like that. But I want my death to be of no trouble or nuisance to people around me. Another desire of my death is such that no one gets to see my body not even remains. Like completely burnt or eaten by animals or fishes.

Now *Nikki* since I am not knowledgeable in this subject, I can only offer my own explanation about death, which I tell my friends and some times very young people.

And I dont think Mind exist after body perish. This is assuming Soul and Mind are not same. I always associate Soul to Life itself.

Baraka_Guru

curiousbear, I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on something. Feel free to ask directed questions about what I've written. Was there anything you did understand, or was it all unclear?

Welcome to the club. I doubt anyone has a definite answer to this. Perhaps what I have to say below will help explain that.

I don't think "I" can precede embodiment. It is our very molecular existence which gives us the perspective of "I."

It's difficult for me to think about this outside of the Buddhist framework, as this is how I've formulated my thoughts on this. In Buddhist thought, "I" is an illusion. We trick ourselves into thinking that "I" is a concrete thing, all the while we are transient beings. How can there be "I" when "I" is in a constant state of flux? We cling to this idea as though we are separate entities from the universe. Buddhists don't believe this is possible; they believe we are all "inter-are."

"I" is an illusion because you cannot isolate "I" and place it in a box; what we think of is "I" is actually a composite. Clinging to this idea of "I," then, can only lead us to delusion and misery, as we begin to fret over and fear such things as sickness, pain, and death. If we understood that we are actually inter-are, we would not fear death; we would accept it.

"i see x..." is a formula with an open variable and is therefore a poor example of how this works. We'd need to take this on an case-by-case basis. If I were to say, "I see the words I am now typing on the screen," it would different from my stating the example, "I see a horse..." (when, in fact, I don't). The thing about Buddhism is that observation and empirical truth is paramount to the path to enlightenment. When you bring language into the picture, I think Buddhists would be preoccupied with the signified rather than the signifier or the sign as a whole, as they may see the latter elements as misleading or filled with preconceptions or misconceptions.

So if you can rid yourself of this idea of "I" (or "you" or the personal pronoun "them"), you take on a profound perspective on the process of life and death and you see it as a natural process. When materialism or fear creep into the picture, Buddhists would claim it's because you have taken on delusive views. Moreover, they believe that this is a common thing for humans to do. Our natural base state is misery (which is related to all of this), and we have this problem of karma, but that would bring us into a whole other topic of conversation.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

curiousbear

Where are this sentences from? I ask because this is pretty close to what Krishna told Arjuna, in battle field, when Arjuna was confused and about to give up fighting against his own kith and kin.

In Hinduism there are two faiths. You are not different from God rather part of him or preferebly IT. The other faith is that you are what you are, and you reach God through devotion, karma, or etc. Since I dont beleive in God, I dont fall in to either of them. But I am so well connected and clearly part of the grand universe or even the consiousness that had created it.

Some times i feel like a freak for thinking like this. Some times i feel good that I could think like it.

But I had not read anything on these, may be should. You folks could suggest books.

1. You disintegrate and decompose. The mass of your body goes back to the elements
2. You had safely left your revised form (gene) with your offspring - so you live for ever
3. You had passed some of your DEEEEEEEP memories to a dedicated part in your offspring's dormant memory (still a theory)
4. And you are gone. You are nowhere. No hell no heaven. Your mind doesnt exist with out your body.

Well I will appreciate if tiberry and baraka_guru comment on this answer

anti fishstick

well, I don't believe in an afterlife because I don't believe in things I can't see or prove. I just think once we die, we become the stuff of the earth, and in that sense, we are recycled and one with nature, back to the origin of life. And still a part of the universe. New agey I know. :P But whatever. I think the Kansas song "Dust in the Wind" says it best.

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

noodle

I go 'round and 'round with this all the time due to my line of work and the numerous religions, faiths and beliefs that we all come into contact with on a daily basis. My Chaplain and I have very different belief systems and frequently have to agree to disagree.

Working with kids who are chronically ill and sometimes at the end of life/dying, I've been asked a million times if they're going to heaven, if I believe in heaven, what is going to happen after they die.
The easiest way for me to put it is, "I believe, kiddo, that whatever you believe is going to happen after you die is what is going to happen to you."
I'm not allowed to bring religion into the workplace (supposedly) unless the patient brings it.
However, the staunch Christians that I work with will often bring in God and Heaven before a child does, which frustrates me.
I don't believe in a heaven, personally, so I'm not going there.
But I have no idea if someone's faith is strong enough to make heaven or their chosen view of the afterlife exist.
I just can't ever tell a child that their thought process about an afterlife is wrong, regardless of what I believe. They're going to die, with or without my involvement in their lives. My job is to make the process easier. Therefore, I'll back them up.

Now, personally, I figure I'm going to get cremated and that will be the end of it.
I'd like to believe in reincarnation, minus the whole Kafka-Cockroach punishment aspect of it, but I have no idea if it truly exists. Nice thought, though.
I, too, kinda have trouble figuring out how the mind continues without the power of the body fueling it.

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demtriapage

My mother just died. She had lung cancer, never smoked and was only 66 years old. Death sucks. I was struggling with how to explain it to my kids (6 and 3). They handled it pretty well. My 6 y/o son said to my 3 y/o daughter, "If you are born, you will die. It is a circle. Mom, is someone being born right now?" The simplicity and beauty of his statement is what I keep coming back to when I start to get angry.

hunnychile

From the mouth of babes..../beautitful!!!

It is All part of the Circle of Life. Trying to add definitions or reason just clouds the mind and pushes us farther from the Truth. There is no reason to fear death, as it's just another part of life.

The day I realized that Death is nothing to fear was a very intense and beautiful part of my awareness & growth - that life is also death and there is no reason to fear either. Fear is wasted energy.

Most people live life in fear (for whatever dumb reasons they grab on to and obsess over) and tend to waste a hell of a lot of energy! Concentrate on "Being in the Now" and that one mantra/idea/ vibe will help you find more clarity. Faith in Life after Death is a real plus, too. It's the cherry on the cake!

Just sharing.

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"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

Manic_Skafe

Death is when the intronaut gives up the search.

__________________
"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

curiousbear

Mind cant exist without the body. at least that is what I strongly beleive in. Now yes we can leave brain waves in the atmosphere, memories in others mind, through which the echo of our mind lives. Dont know how long and how far! But Mind cant exist with out body.

Yes it is. Since we are creative, imaginative and psychic we cant stop reasoning. Reasoning is beauty as one of the possibility suddenly ends up to be great facts (truths).

Yeah according to me fearing death is like inhibiting an orgasm

Mantra.

I don't believe "I" continues to exist when I die, so I don't believe death is anything, since "I" is what makes up everything

tiberry

While sitting with my wife and discussing the passing of her father, these words just "came to me" (no, I don't believe that they were divinely or otherwise inspired) and I grabbed a scrap of paper, wrote them down and gave them to her.

They pretty much sum up my religious (if that's even an appropriate term) beliefs on who I am, who you are, what life is, etc.

__________________
My life's work is to bridge the gap between that which is perceived by the mind and that which is quantifiable by words and numbers.