Questions about the Bible and Christianity, and how it relates to other religions - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ganon · 06-18-2003, 08:51 AM

One topic I have not seen addressed at length is questions about the bible, christianity, and how it relates to other religions, from a biblical perspective. This is much different from philosophy, because philosophy is not limited by a particular book (bible) and is a much more expansive field of human thought. I have a whole bunch of education in this area, and will answer any questions anyone might have, learn from the forum, and spark discussion. I WILL NOT be trying to win converts!! If this sounds interesting to you, fire away, if not, I will let it die on the vine, so to speak.

Shokan · 06-18-2003, 09:40 AM

I'm not sure if this is the type of question you are looking for, but have often wondered about it.

What undisputable proof is there that the Word of God, ie The Bible, is the true record of how the universe was created? I guess I'm asking for proof of Creationism.

Sorry if thats not what your asking, but hopefully you can answer it, or direct me to the answers.

platypus · 06-18-2003, 09:54 AM

It's all about faith. And proof denies faith. So proof will never be forthcoming.

I, for one, believe in creationism about as much as I believe in Santa Claus.

God's last message about his creation,
"Well, back to the drawing board."

ganon · 06-18-2003, 10:06 AM

Ok, here goes. This is sort of an answer, but it probably isn't going to satisfy. First off, my take on this thread is to answer bible questions using the bible as the primary source, so in that sense, all I can do is say that there is no undisputable proof that the biblical account of creation exists. There is not, and never will be, any undisputible proof for any theory of the origins of what we see all around us. That is because for something to be considered a scientific fact it has to be observable and repeatable. We are kind of out of luck on both. There are archaelogical finds that coincide with biblical history, but that would not be the proof you seek. But hey, at least I didn't try to B.S. you!! check out www.icr.org for some of the info, but beware, it is a christian based web page.

ganon · 06-18-2003, 10:18 AM

humans have, since recorded time, always tried to make their god fit their image, and also the icons that related to their god. Adam and Eve are huge icons in the biblical pantheon, and thus subject to culturally influenced representations. Most people just figured that they would have belly buttons, so that they would look like us, is my guess. My theory is that because they are the first humans, and the genetic template for us all, they would have the belly buttons so that everyone else would have the genetic "switch" to turn on and give us belly buttons. But there is no biblical proof for that, either.

bubbagumpshrimp · 06-18-2003, 03:27 PM

as platypus said, it's all about faith. Undisputable proof is not something that you're going to find .

Spektr · 06-18-2003, 07:07 PM

I don't know how much I can help, because I'm Jewish, but I think that it is very important to find something you can believe in. Faith, while not altogether logical, does offer people hope, which last I checked was still a good thing. I was an atheist for a long time and after awhile it didn't make any sense. I couldn't go through life despising other people's belief systems. Where I draw the line is when frauds like Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell, and basically any type of religious extremist (be they Muslim, Christian or Sikhist) try to use their faith to belittle others and elevate themselves.

Frowning Budah · 06-18-2003, 07:10 PM

have a lot of trouble reconciling the God in the Old Testament to the God in the New Testament. You know the old Eye for an eye thing verses turn the other cheek.

popo · 06-18-2003, 07:49 PM

Here are a couple things I've wondered about wrt Christianity vs. Judaism:

1) According to the old book, when the Messiah came it would lead to world peace, the end of conflict, food for the hungry, etc. While Jesus may have spoken on these topics, it didn't exactly happen. How does Christianity explain this? Now, I'm not a religious person and I believe that both religions are based on fairytales, but it sure does seem like the whole "Second Coming" bit was made up in order to account for Jesus' dying.

2) Why do we hear so much of "the old testament god" who was vengeful as opposed to the "new testament god" who is kind & forgiving? AFAIK, Christians believe that Jesus is the son of the old guy.

I hope I didn't offend anyone by these questions.

Jasmar · 06-18-2003, 07:59 PM

This is probabaly a stupid question but if god made man in image of himself and adam was the original, is he more closely related to god then jesus?

ganon · 06-19-2003, 11:03 AM

Here is a "big" answer for the Old testament/New testament split, and why christians draw differences from them. The testament is a record of a covanant, or agreement. The division of the two is based on an old testament idea that God himself would fulfill his requirements for "holiness", so that man would not have to, because man is not able to in and of himself. God made this promise as soon as adam and eve fell. Then, the old testament becomes a record of Gods agreement with man, first thru adam, and then primarily and most substantially with abraham. The promises made to abraham represented what was to come, when the permanent would replace the temporary, and God would make his home with men. God himself said without the shedding of blood there can be no remission for sin, and so a system of sacrifices were established. The idea behind the sacrifice was that man would take the best that he had, and give it unconditionally, and it would be given to God, as the price for sin. There is a huge amount of biblical law surrounding the complicated relationship God and his people, Israel, had. The history of Israel is given to us all thru the Bible, and it served as both a record, a prophecy of what was to come, and as far as the old testament is concerned, an example of what not to do in relating to God. Then God sent his son, Jesus, who was at once all-God, and truly all-man, to be the perfect sacrifice, that would once and for all satisfy Gods requirement. Jesus is not a created being, but rather part of a Trinity (this is not explainable) that is at once three seperate representations and manifestations of God, and completely God as one, just as Jesus said, I and the father are one. That is the point the muslims get hung up on. That Jesus could even be the messiah is the point the Jews get hung up on. Jesus himself said that he did not come to bring a kingdom that was of this world, but a spiritual kingdom that would be found in the hearts and lives of believers. He also said after his resurrection that he would be coming back, but the next time, it would not be as the savior, but as the judge. Here is the old/new testament thing. Because Jesus, by his death and resurrection fulfilled the law of God completely, once and for all, and conquered death, so that it has no power over him, he is able to justify us before God, if we will simply believe. The old contract, or testament, has been fulfilled, and a new, better contract is inplace. One was law, and the other is grace and love. God didn't change, and his requirements didn't change, he just realized that no man could ever be good enough to be in his incredible, sinless, holy presence, so he went ahead and fulfilled the requirements himself.

ganon · 06-19-2003, 11:12 AM

This one is to finish addressing questions from popo. Actually throughout the old testament the prophecy was for someone who would reconcile us to God, as far as messiah was concerned, and that in the end times (described most thoroughly in the book of Daniel) the Lord would come and rule the nations after certain things took place, but these have always been two seperate events. The book of Isaiah, and psalms are full of prophecy about the coming redeemer. It was the Israelites themselves that set the requirement that the messiah would come and throw off the rule of the Romans, and Jesus even dealt with that issue while he was in his ministry. He basically said that his kingdom was not of this world.

ganon · 06-19-2003, 11:19 AM

This one is for Jasmar. Jesus and God (the father) are one in the same, in essence, but are different representations of each other. The third part is the Holy Spirit. I have heard it broken down into functionality, God is the big, mysterious part, Jesus is the God-man, that was able to live among us and save us from our sin, and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God that inhabits us and dwells with our spirit when we put our faith in Jesus and are born-again. The trinity is the toughest part of the entire bible to explain. As for adam being made in the image of God, I think it refers more to attributes than God essence. Man can be creative, free willed, and desires fellowship. In this way, man is an image of God.

MacGnG · 06-19-2003, 01:21 PM

there's no proof either way, thats why there are so many argument; it's faith.

ganon · 06-19-2003, 01:29 PM

The thing to remember about this thread is that I am not trying to prove anything, I am just trying to answer bible questions from a bible perspective.

geep · 06-19-2003, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
there's no proof either way, thats why there are so many argument; it's faith.

The proof thing is God's way of providing us with something called "Free Will". God will not provide proof of his existence. He wants us to believe in him because we want to, not because we have to. It provides us with the greatest dilemma of all time. Does he exist or doesn't he. You're right when you say that's why they call it "faith".

Jasmar · 06-19-2003, 05:47 PM

So god and jesus were one in the same only jesus was god in human form instead of god in lets say...god form. thanks for answering my question

ganon · 06-20-2003, 06:31 AM

I hope it was somehow sufficient, jasmar.

Tirian · 06-20-2003, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jaelin
Adam and Eve were created by God, they werent born - so why is it that in every depiction of them I have seen they have belly buttons?

Simple - because these are all illustrations and not photographs of Adam and Eve. Likely the models used had bellybuttons.

Edit: this is a bit of humor, and if it is better not posted here - please remove moderator. thks.

ganon · 06-20-2003, 08:12 AM

But if by chance we ever find a body or two without belly buttons, frozen in some glacier somewhere, we will know it's adam and eve!!

Lebell · 06-20-2003, 10:40 AM

Umm, this really is philosophy. Moving...

Jesus Pimp · 06-20-2003, 04:36 PM

If Jesus died for our sins then why is there still sin in the world?

chavos · 06-22-2003, 03:15 AM

Jesus is the offer of reconciliation and forgiveness...we still must choose to accept it. The prodigial son didn't just get taken home, he decided to go back, even if it meant lowering himself to the father he offended, only to find that all that mattered was his return. There is still sin-people choosing to part from God-despite the fact that we are invited to return through Jesus.

Jesus Pimp · 06-22-2003, 08:09 AM

But isn't Jesus "God"? What's the point of offending himself? So if Hitler asked for forgiveness he could get into Heaven for killing millions of jews?

chavos · 06-22-2003, 10:13 AM

Misexplained there....the prodigal sons are us-human kind-and Jesus is the offer of forgiveness that we don't expect. Some will talk about blood atonement dating back to original sin, but i think that its much clearer theologically, and personally to simply realize that Jesus makes an offer of forgiveness even unto his own death.

As for Hilter....I don't know. I don't know how one asks for forgiveness for such a thing, and i don't know how one accepts forgiveness after such a thing. I have no idea if Hitler was even sane enough to know right from wrong, or if he indeed was cold bloodedly rational to the very end. I don't play guessing games with who's on God's good side...and i think any calculus on what's forgiveable and what's not really amounts to a guessing game.

06-18-2003, 08:51 AM	#1 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	Questions about the Bible and Christianity, and how it relates to other religions One topic I have not seen addressed at length is questions about the bible, christianity, and how it relates to other religions, from a biblical perspective. This is much different from philosophy, because philosophy is not limited by a particular book (bible) and is a much more expansive field of human thought. I have a whole bunch of education in this area, and will answer any questions anyone might have, learn from the forum, and spark discussion. I WILL NOT be trying to win converts!! If this sounds interesting to you, fire away, if not, I will let it die on the vine, so to speak. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-18-2003, 09:40 AM	#2 (permalink)
Shokan Addict Location: Canada	I'm not sure if this is the type of question you are looking for, but have often wondered about it. What undisputable proof is there that the Word of God, ie The Bible, is the true record of how the universe was created? I guess I'm asking for proof of Creationism. Sorry if thats not what your asking, but hopefully you can answer it, or direct me to the answers. __________________ Legalize it.

06-18-2003, 09:54 AM	#3 (permalink)
platypus Essen meine kurze Hosen Location: NY Burbs	It's all about faith. And proof denies faith. So proof will never be forthcoming. I, for one, believe in creationism about as much as I believe in Santa Claus. God's last message about his creation, "Well, back to the drawing board." __________________ Out the 10Base-T, through the router, down the T1, over the leased line, off the bridge, past the firewall...nothing but Net.

06-18-2003, 10:06 AM	#4 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	Ok, here goes. This is sort of an answer, but it probably isn't going to satisfy. First off, my take on this thread is to answer bible questions using the bible as the primary source, so in that sense, all I can do is say that there is no undisputable proof that the biblical account of creation exists. There is not, and never will be, any undisputible proof for any theory of the origins of what we see all around us. That is because for something to be considered a scientific fact it has to be observable and repeatable. We are kind of out of luck on both. There are archaelogical finds that coincide with biblical history, but that would not be the proof you seek. But hey, at least I didn't try to B.S. you!! check out www.icr.org for some of the info, but beware, it is a christian based web page. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-18-2003, 10:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	humans have, since recorded time, always tried to make their god fit their image, and also the icons that related to their god. Adam and Eve are huge icons in the biblical pantheon, and thus subject to culturally influenced representations. Most people just figured that they would have belly buttons, so that they would look like us, is my guess. My theory is that because they are the first humans, and the genetic template for us all, they would have the belly buttons so that everyone else would have the genetic "switch" to turn on and give us belly buttons. But there is no biblical proof for that, either. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-18-2003, 03:27 PM	#6 (permalink)
bubbagumpshrimp Crazy	as platypus said, it's all about faith. Undisputable proof is not something that you're going to find .

06-18-2003, 07:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
Spektr Copacetic Location: Nati	I don't know how much I can help, because I'm Jewish, but I think that it is very important to find something you can believe in. Faith, while not altogether logical, does offer people hope, which last I checked was still a good thing. I was an atheist for a long time and after awhile it didn't make any sense. I couldn't go through life despising other people's belief systems. Where I draw the line is when frauds like Pat Robertson and Jerry Fallwell, and basically any type of religious extremist (be they Muslim, Christian or Sikhist) try to use their faith to belittle others and elevate themselves.

06-18-2003, 07:10 PM	#8 (permalink)
Frowning Budah Slave of Fear	have a lot of trouble reconciling the God in the Old Testament to the God in the New Testament. You know the old Eye for an eye thing verses turn the other cheek.

06-18-2003, 07:49 PM	#9 (permalink)
popo Psycho	Here are a couple things I've wondered about wrt Christianity vs. Judaism: 1) According to the old book, when the Messiah came it would lead to world peace, the end of conflict, food for the hungry, etc. While Jesus may have spoken on these topics, it didn't exactly happen. How does Christianity explain this? Now, I'm not a religious person and I believe that both religions are based on fairytales, but it sure does seem like the whole "Second Coming" bit was made up in order to account for Jesus' dying. 2) Why do we hear so much of "the old testament god" who was vengeful as opposed to the "new testament god" who is kind & forgiving? AFAIK, Christians believe that Jesus is the son of the old guy. I hope I didn't offend anyone by these questions.

06-18-2003, 07:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Jasmar Crazy	This is probabaly a stupid question but if god made man in image of himself and adam was the original, is he more closely related to god then jesus?

06-19-2003, 11:03 AM	#11 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	Here is a "big" answer for the Old testament/New testament split, and why christians draw differences from them. The testament is a record of a covanant, or agreement. The division of the two is based on an old testament idea that God himself would fulfill his requirements for "holiness", so that man would not have to, because man is not able to in and of himself. God made this promise as soon as adam and eve fell. Then, the old testament becomes a record of Gods agreement with man, first thru adam, and then primarily and most substantially with abraham. The promises made to abraham represented what was to come, when the permanent would replace the temporary, and God would make his home with men. God himself said without the shedding of blood there can be no remission for sin, and so a system of sacrifices were established. The idea behind the sacrifice was that man would take the best that he had, and give it unconditionally, and it would be given to God, as the price for sin. There is a huge amount of biblical law surrounding the complicated relationship God and his people, Israel, had. The history of Israel is given to us all thru the Bible, and it served as both a record, a prophecy of what was to come, and as far as the old testament is concerned, an example of what not to do in relating to God. Then God sent his son, Jesus, who was at once all-God, and truly all-man, to be the perfect sacrifice, that would once and for all satisfy Gods requirement. Jesus is not a created being, but rather part of a Trinity (this is not explainable) that is at once three seperate representations and manifestations of God, and completely God as one, just as Jesus said, I and the father are one. That is the point the muslims get hung up on. That Jesus could even be the messiah is the point the Jews get hung up on. Jesus himself said that he did not come to bring a kingdom that was of this world, but a spiritual kingdom that would be found in the hearts and lives of believers. He also said after his resurrection that he would be coming back, but the next time, it would not be as the savior, but as the judge. Here is the old/new testament thing. Because Jesus, by his death and resurrection fulfilled the law of God completely, once and for all, and conquered death, so that it has no power over him, he is able to justify us before God, if we will simply believe. The old contract, or testament, has been fulfilled, and a new, better contract is inplace. One was law, and the other is grace and love. God didn't change, and his requirements didn't change, he just realized that no man could ever be good enough to be in his incredible, sinless, holy presence, so he went ahead and fulfilled the requirements himself. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-19-2003, 11:12 AM	#12 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	This one is to finish addressing questions from popo. Actually throughout the old testament the prophecy was for someone who would reconcile us to God, as far as messiah was concerned, and that in the end times (described most thoroughly in the book of Daniel) the Lord would come and rule the nations after certain things took place, but these have always been two seperate events. The book of Isaiah, and psalms are full of prophecy about the coming redeemer. It was the Israelites themselves that set the requirement that the messiah would come and throw off the rule of the Romans, and Jesus even dealt with that issue while he was in his ministry. He basically said that his kingdom was not of this world. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-19-2003, 11:19 AM	#13 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	This one is for Jasmar. Jesus and God (the father) are one in the same, in essence, but are different representations of each other. The third part is the Holy Spirit. I have heard it broken down into functionality, God is the big, mysterious part, Jesus is the God-man, that was able to live among us and save us from our sin, and the Holy Spirit is the presence of God that inhabits us and dwells with our spirit when we put our faith in Jesus and are born-again. The trinity is the toughest part of the entire bible to explain. As for adam being made in the image of God, I think it refers more to attributes than God essence. Man can be creative, free willed, and desires fellowship. In this way, man is an image of God. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-19-2003, 01:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	there's no proof either way, thats why there are so many argument; it's faith.

06-19-2003, 01:29 PM	#15 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	The thing to remember about this thread is that I am not trying to prove anything, I am just trying to answer bible questions from a bible perspective. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-19-2003, 05:47 PM	#17 (permalink)
Jasmar Crazy	So god and jesus were one in the same only jesus was god in human form instead of god in lets say...god form. thanks for answering my question

06-20-2003, 06:31 AM	#18 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	I hope it was somehow sufficient, jasmar. __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-20-2003, 08:12 AM	#20 (permalink)
ganon Insane Location: in my head	But if by chance we ever find a body or two without belly buttons, frozen in some glacier somewhere, we will know it's adam and eve!! __________________ "My give up, my give up." - Jar Jar Binks

06-20-2003, 10:40 AM	#21 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Umm, this really is philosophy. Moving... __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

06-20-2003, 04:36 PM	#22 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	If Jesus died for our sins then why is there still sin in the world? __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

06-22-2003, 03:15 AM	#23 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Jesus is the offer of reconciliation and forgiveness...we still must choose to accept it. The prodigial son didn't just get taken home, he decided to go back, even if it meant lowering himself to the father he offended, only to find that all that mattered was his return. There is still sin-people choosing to part from God-despite the fact that we are invited to return through Jesus.

06-22-2003, 08:09 AM	#24 (permalink)
Jesus Pimp The Original JizzSmacka	But isn't Jesus "God"? What's the point of offending himself? So if Hitler asked for forgiveness he could get into Heaven for killing millions of jews? __________________ Never date anyone who doesn't make your dick hard.

06-22-2003, 10:13 AM	#25 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	Misexplained there....the prodigal sons are us-human kind-and Jesus is the offer of forgiveness that we don't expect. Some will talk about blood atonement dating back to original sin, but i think that its much clearer theologically, and personally to simply realize that Jesus makes an offer of forgiveness even unto his own death. As for Hilter....I don't know. I don't know how one asks for forgiveness for such a thing, and i don't know how one accepts forgiveness after such a thing. I have no idea if Hitler was even sane enough to know right from wrong, or if he indeed was cold bloodedly rational to the very end. I don't play guessing games with who's on God's good side...and i think any calculus on what's forgiveable and what's not really amounts to a guessing game.