d*d

There are a lot of threads about religous belief, in particular christianity which seems to be the one most people can identify with as the faith that they have most experience with, even if they don't beleive in it themselves. I struggle with the notion of religous faith and, if Im honest, It's because I don't understand it - but I am curious about it since it seems to be such a powerful force in the world today as a motivator for groups of people. My main problem with religion, is the idea that belief in one particular religion automatically negates another- how can you faithfully give yourself to one religion knowing it's the right one usualy just down to the geography of where you've been born, what is it that makes your religion superior (because it would have to be). I am interested in views from those with faith - help me understand.

asaris

First, you say your main problem with religion is "that belief in one particular religion automatically negates another." This isn't actually a function of religion, but a function of logic. Christianity claims that Jesus is God; Islam claims that he is not. One or the other has to be right, but both cannot be. Put another way, the acceptance of a set of beliefs entails the rejection of any belief that is the denial of one of those beliefs.

Second, it's easy to say "Well, you're just a Christian/Muslim/Buddhist because of where you were born." But in at least some cases, this isn't true. Consider first the existence of converts -- the fact that some people change their religious beliefs means that belief cannot be strictly determined by the set of beliefs they grew up with. But even people who grew up in a faith, and have stuck with it, aren't necessarily doing it just out of habit. Many people have critically examined their faith, and stick with it because they believe it is true, not just because they were born with it.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

d*d

It is the logic part that I get hung up on, although not a function of religion it is still an outcome of choosing a faith (don't mean to be pedantic)

of course, I understand that which is why I said "usually based on geographic location" I admit for the purpose of the question I am working with generalizations and am ignoring minroty views, generally where you are born determines your faith

asaris

I'm not sure I understand -- you're saying that you don't like the idea of choosing a faith because it means you're saying "I'm right and you're wrong"? How do you feel about correcting other people's math problems, or arguing politics with someone?

One of the main reasons I like Christianity, as opposed to other religions, is both its belief in the reality of evil and the necessity of grace. Living in the world I live in, I find myself compelled to believe in evil, and so religions that deny the existence of evil (by, for example, calling it illusion) are simply not an option for me. But given this, I don't see any way we can get out of this evil by our own efforts, but only through grace.

Another reason I like Christianity is that it's one of few religions to take philosophy seriously. This is, of course, more applicable to some branches of Christianity than others. But it's certainly more true of these branches than of, say, Judaism (at least, historically) or Islam (at least for the past 500 years).

Is that something like what you're looking for?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

d*d

That's kinda what I'm looking for, I have no problem forming (or voicing) opinions with math (arguments can be proven, at least at my Math level anyway) or politics, but not religion - which suggets that I don't know enough about different religions to find which one suits my outlook on life (this is certainly a possibilty I know little very little any religions except the one I was taught in school). So is religous belief more of a lifestyle choice? you pick one that most tallies with your assumptions about the nature of life, good, evil etc

asaris

Well, the way I look at it, there are different sorts of assumptions. I have many assumptions where I'm ready and willing to be proven wrong. These, in part, do inform my choice of a religion. But my choice of a religion influences these assumptions as well. An easy example would be the resurrection of the dead -- I have no real reason to believe that this happens, other than the fact that I'm a Christian, and it's more or less entailed by that. I'm sure there are examples of a more robust assumption that I've dropped because of Christianity, but I can't come up with one at the moment. But the point is that these sorts of assumptions are variable, and can be rather readily disproven.

But there are other assumptions I have that are very basic, and it's these that *really* influence my choice of religion. These would be things like the existence of evil or the necessity of grace. I don't want to say that these are not open to question, or that I couldn't be convinced I'm wrong. But someone trying to do that would have a long uphill row to hoe.

I should add that many, perhaps most, religious people don't describe it as 'choosing a religion', as if you were at a restaurant trying to decide between the beef or the fish. Most describe it as the religion choosing them. Having grown up Christian, it's probably not entirely accurate for me to describe myself as having chosen the religion. And I certainly can't describe it as Christianity finding me. The closest I can come is my experience in trying to find a church. The last two churches I've attended I've had the experience of feeling like I belonged in that church. Neither was what I thought I was looking for, but both were right for me -- probably better for me than whatever it was I thought I was looking for.

I guess that the point is, while I wouldn't want to ignore the intellectual component involved in the choice of a comprehensive world view, there's also an emotional component involved as well. Since we're both intellectual and emotional creatures, we shouldn't ignore the emotional side of our being.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Ourcrazymodern?

It's a wilderness of misunderstandings we've created as a species. I think we should just agree to accept each other as individuals, except we CAN'T.
I don't believe we can't. I think "can't" usually means "don't want to" or "don't know how to", either of which can be remedied.
Wishful thinking goes far towards making wishes come true.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Ch'i

Nice.



In my opinion, it would be impossible for a mass, religious reconcilliation. Here's why:

When someone makes an argument they sometimes believe that they're point of view is the correct notion, even if it is not. In most cases it takes a great deal of evidence to pursuade that person to see any fallacies they've made. When an argument, or debate, can only be won by either individuals' preferences (i.e. incomplete or circumstantial proof), both parties declare themselves correct. In other words, it becomes a stalemate. Makes sense.

Now consider this situation applied to religion. Both parties believe themselves absolutely, 100% correct. No evident evidence or facts which would lead to a victor, or clear sign of why either would be wrong. This gap grows into a no-man's-land in which both sides entrench themselves. The grey areas are wrong because if they weren't they'd be black or white. Even the slightest tint or hue withdraws them from the reality of the debate such as a name, or a date. Some become a philosophy, many become a doctrine. Thus more people see why they are right while the other is wrong. Right and wrong. Now the debate has morhped from "correct or wrong" to "morally justified or wrong." For those people who are indoctrinated by these doctrines, it becomes a matter of location, how loud the preacher is, and heritage.


As for my faith, I apply my philosophy of "adapt what it useful to oneself; disregard what is not" to my beliefs. I strongly believe that beliefs of a religious nature should, as in the case of most other things, be determined and discovered by oneself. My religion is practiced as a philosophy and it falls somewhere between Taoism, Agnosticism, and Buddhism; three religions and philosophies which are not prevailent in the areas I've lived and grown up in by the way (not to mention my father was a Lutheran pastor). In a nutshell, it is my belief that there is probably something out there which we cannot comprehend. This thing could be called God. There are most definately aspects of our reality which we do not understand and are ever so slighly aware of. I do not trust anyone to tell me what my religion should be; be it the Bible, Koran, Zoroastrian Archives, Tao Te Ching, Torah, or any other holy written word. I believe we are connected to everything around us and that the connection is either deeper or seems more obvious the more we understand it. I believe that if there is a God, and it initiated the "Big Bang", there are too many possibilities on what it is, and believing it to have a human sense of compassion and logic seems naive. I think science is a tool which is not contrary to philosophy, or religious beliefs. I prefer philosophy to religion; for me, one is a way of life, the latter is a shackle. These are some of the main points in my philodophy.

Religion provides hope, community, and something visceral to express and defend. With these as its anchor, it's influence cannot be understated. These provisions also make it a powerful tool for manipulation, which only increases my believe that people must reach their own conclusions. Ironically, those who are most in need of that retrospect are the least likely to listen to themselves.

Anyhoo, I can't tell if I went off on a rant or helped answer some of your questions. My intention was the latter.

MSD

I grew up assuming that my mom couldn't be wrong (I was brainwashed about religion, not just educated,) and questioning the infallibility of my religion led me to ask whether I really believed or just accepted what I was told. I asked myself exactly what you asked, and concluded that I would have believed anything I was told if it were taught in the same way that I was. I ended up with the opinion that if thousands of different groups all claim to be the absolute truth, the most likely answer is that none of them are.

I now hold a basic constructionist view that belief is what you make of it and what is taught to you by society, and nothing more. The strong religious upbringing led me to reject religion entirely.

Mistress Kali

For me the central tenets of my denomination of Christianity is what is important. The exclusionary nature, the judgment of other faiths as being lesser, is more a function of the humans who recorded the history of Christianity than it reflects the wisdom of Christ. As for faith, it cannot be quantified, it can only be experienced. Think of the person in your life you believe in, who is always there for you and that will give you a sense of how those who embrace religious faith feel about their deity of choice. Best of luck in your journey.

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