paulskinback

I had to share this to see peoples ideas/beliefs on what happened to me yesterday.

I had to get petrol/gas for my car the night before last, but was tired so decided to get out the house earlier before work. I slept in however, and left at the normal time.

Got to the garage and started pumping, and there was a problem with the pump so it kept clicking as if the tank was full... but it was almost empty. Happened before with a faulty pump, but it took me a few minutes more to fill 'er up.

Got onto the motorway, bearing in mind it was raining heavily, and there were big puddles in the dips that shook the car and sprayed everywhere.

As i got a few more miles down the road, there had been a HUGE crash, cars literally everywhere - in the barriers, obliterated, every lane had been taken out and more people had stopped to help. There was a silver coloured car sideways in the middle of my lane with no wheels on my visible side and I couldn't even make out the model of it. People were still getting out of their cars in the wreckage and running to the side.

Straight away my brain clicked... if the pump had worked properly, or had I filled up the night before, I would have been directly in the crash, or extremely close to it, perhaps crashing from the knock on effect of a pile-up.

I thought about it a lot during the day, and my only conclusion was "you're talking crap" or "if its intervention, why save me?"

The crash was on the news later, I don't know if anyone died but I hope everyone was ok. I was a bit worried about stopping to help because the visibility was so bad, and it was still dark... and I didn't want to be a hero who got killed by a truck that piled into the wreckage. Maybe next time I see something similar I will help though.

Anyone had any similar things happen? What do you think about divine intervention? Destiny? Fate?

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

Jozrael

I think there's something up there that's omniscient and watching over us. Let's call it 'God'. Because that happens to be a label I'm comfy with.

So yea, I think you were being watched out for. If this 'God' thing happens to have a plan, you very well might be included. So look out for any special goings-on in your life...or maybe your influence will go entirely unnoticed by you.

Congrats, though . It's not often that you -know- someone's looking out for you.

Charlatan

If thinking that "someone is watching over you" makes you feel better, more power to you.

I tend to think of this as just another interesting coincidence.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

There is an old belief that looks at every situation without thinking it essentially fortunate or unfortunate. A well-known parable demonstrates this:

One way of looking the situation you described is that there may be a number of survivors of that crash who will re-evaluate their lives as though they've received new leases on them, even though their cars did not live to fulfill their own. Suddenly, life is revealed to be more precious than they may have thought previously. I would say that this is something of a gift.

Personally I don't believe in divine intervention, but rather a universe of cause and effect that is both complex and simple, depending on what you look at. I don't see a mechanical failure or a decision as the Hand of God or the workings of a guardian angel. These are things that simply are... it is up to us to be aware of them and to see them so that we can find ways to use them to enrich our lives.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

paulskinback

Baraka_guru I like the philosophy of cause and effect. It had the effect of me re-evaluating the way I drive and also how I would deal with the incident. The effect of which caused me not to stop to help others, because I had been told not to in the past, in case someone drives into you while helping.

So technically my experience could mean that by someone else telling me that in the past, I didn't die that day whilst helping a victim of that accident.

Infinite possibilites open up when considering the parable you mention...

I do, however, like to believe that I have been chosen by a "higher authority" to have avoided the crash for some reason, but that makes me feel egoistic and perhaps somewhat arrogant...

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

Jozrael

Nah, if you believe in a higher power, and 'evidence' points to the existence of intervention, it's just natural to explain a freaky coincidence with it. Not egotistical at all.

tooth

Such is the nature of life. Every action and decision has the ability to chart the course for the rest of your life. It is mind boggling to think of all the random things that had to happen to get to where we are now.

Jozrael

Anyone else subscribe to the multiverse in that sense? I've heard it claimed that everytime there is a fork in time, a parallel universe splits off and -both- choices are made.

That's mindboggling, trying to imagine the sheer magnitude of the multiverse. My tiny little brain can't comprehend the smallest fraction of it.

Charlatan

I don't know enough about the theories of the multiverse but what little I do understand suggests that these choices only exist at the quantum level and collapse as they get larger due to choice.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Shauk

you can choose to be deep or not deep, but what you are feeling is having enough of a mindset to actually ponder the real "what if" consequences of what you do from day to day. Just be happy you weren't in it.

Jozrael

They do exist at the quantum level, each creating their own universe, but if a billion of them stack together against another billion totally different ones, it's enough for a human being to twitch his pinky finger a different way, and if a billion billion are stacked, it's enough for a human to make a different decision.

It's a little ridiculous.

Lady Sage

My usual answer is "Your Guardian Angel was working overtime. Be sure to tip.

Similar instances saved the lives of many on that fateful day 5 years ago.

If I am running late then late I will be and if I have a "gut" feeling about something, I listen.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

florida0214

I believe in Miracles and divine intervention...now. Here is my story and I am excited about seeing how everybody picks it apart.

I have a very good friend who was diagnosed with stage 4 liver cancer. I went to the Dr. with her and heard all the news first hand. SHe definitly had Cancer and it had spread to her stomach and pretty much everywhere else. They said she had 6 months to live without Chemo and about a year with it. She was floored and I was shocked. Never expected that.

I promised her I would do anything I could to help. She soon decided to follow through with Chemo and live longer. In the mean time she was very active in her church, always has been and she stayed faithful. SHe volunteered and there was a group of church elders who would pray over her and annoint her everyday in the morning. well about 6 months later after a few surgeries and the awfulness of chemo we were at the doctors and her doctor comes in and is just smiling. HE siad he has no idea what happened but they cannot find any cancer at all. Not even an abnormal cell. He showed us before and after Xrays some taken as recently as a couple of weeks ago.

He had no explanation but My friend gave all the credit to God. I could not explain it and simply accepted it as a miracle. There simply was no other explaination. I now attend church faithfully and truly believe there is a God. Call me crazy or ignorant but you simply cany deny that something happened and it cannot be explained. Not even with science. Anyway this seemed like a good time to share the story.

__________________
"Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

feelgood

Did the crash look anything like this one?


If so, then I don't think I need to tell you that you're part of the plan...

__________________
Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Jozrael

Florida0214, there's the very simple explanation that the first doctors were wrong.

The human immune system is very strong, and actually there are a very small percentage of people immune to AIDS that they are currently working on seeing if they can 'copy' their immune system to create a vaccine. I'd imagine that there are some people who can handle free radicals or carcinogens and other cancer-causing agents...perhaps your friend was one of these. Also, there are many examples of people making 'miraculous' recoveries from fatal diseases - its not the norm by far, but it definitely happens.

So, no, it's not certain that it was supernatural, but it's a nice possibility if that's your cup of tea. Personally I think it's entirely possible.

paulskinback

Florida0214 - very nice thing to happen to your friend, I hope her cancer does not return... I wouldn't have thought it divine intervention, however, as I'm certain that praying to a god does nothing if you haven't been faithful to that God all your life ie attending church and devotiing yourself to God

but thats just my thought. She certainly has someone looking over her



Feelgood that is SOME picture. The cars were strewn all over the place like the ones behind, i'm sure a van had just flown straight into the back of another car in a similar manner though. scary thought and thats why I didn't stop.

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

Johnny Rotten

paulskinback, your story reminds me of the time I sat in the movie theater and watched the closing credits, which I almost never do. The buddy I went to see the movie with was one of those people who likes to sit and watch all that stuff, while I'm not. About halfway home, we got stuck in traffic on the freeway, almost right in front of a bad car crash, and I've sometimes wondered how differently my life would have gone, had I just walked out of the theater like normal.

So these things happen. Sometimes it's someone who likes movie credits, other times it's a wonky gas pump

__________________
"The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

paulskinback

I just noticed that you're in Canton, Ohio which was about 30 minutes drive away from where I spent a year as an exchange student - Malvern. Small world?

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

rlbond86

How many people get cancer and pray to God sincerely and still die? How many truly faithful people still perish earlier than they deserve? For each person who prays to God to be healed and manages to survive miraculously, 100 people pray with all their hearts and die anyway. This is not God at work, this is what statisticians call selection bias -- the only reports of God are from those who survive. What did your friend do so special to deserve special treatment from God?

Not to downplay your friend's recovery or anything, but any time people don't understand things, it's attributed to divine intervention. God intervened for your friend but didn't stop the Holocaust or the genocides in Rwanda and Darfour? I find that hard to believe.

Master_Shake

Man, I don't even have an opinion.

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

paulskinback

Thanks for your insight!

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation

MuadDib

I think there is divine intervention, but I don't think this is it. I mean by definition DI is objective and it doesn't matter how big or small the event is, all that matters is that G-d did interceded and did it. However, not being able to know the mind of the divine it is impossible to ever be sure DI occurs outside of the impossible occurring. That being said, I would suspect this is nothing more than a coincidence of the same ilk which keeps me out of danger everyday. Even if it was on your route and right before you. Moreover, if you want to contend that DI prevented you from being in that accident you would also have to conclude that the divine willed the others be in that accident.

So regardless, we can never know if it was or not. I would say no and that there is such a thing as luck as well as DI, but I have no more proof than the other side so believe whatever makes you happy.

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Carno

Some call it fate, some call it karma, some call it god..... I just call it a coincidence. There is no evidence that if the pump had worked correctly you would have been in that wreck anyway.

__________________
http://how-to-spell-ridiculous.com/

Yakk

No mechanism with predictive power has been proposed that could result in Quantum-level superimposition not happening at larger scales.

Observations of the large-scale universe are consistent with Quantum-level superimposition happening at larger scales. Large-scale cross-connected systems can have superimposition, but the large-scale seperate superimposed states rapidly become orthogonal, and cannot communicate with each other.

There is the possibility that some unknown effect causes quantum collapse. I've seen gravity proposed as a cause of quantum collapse, as well as some kind of super special physical effect of "awareness".

Carefully insulated particles (avoiding the cross-connection-with-rest-of-universe problem) have generated quantum superimposition and entanglement effects on macroscopic scales.

Of course, that is just a layman's opinion. Most professional physicists I've talked to simply avoid the question by saying "Q-M cannot be used to predict macroscopic system behaviour, so we don't use Q-M on macroscopic systems".

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Ch'i

Interestingly enough, alot of those quantum theories require some faith.


Personally, I'd like to see the kind of divine intervention where I come home to see God, Buddah, Xenu, Ganeshia and my therapist confront me about my issues.

Jozrael

QFT.

If God lifted you out of that situation, he also dropped every other person into it.

Pretty damn vindictive, if you ask me.

Coinkydink.

EDIT: I know this contradicts my previous post entirely. I'm feeling cynical and this struck a chord with me.

Supple Cow

Yeah, it's just the luck of the draw. There are probably at least a dozen other people talking about their near miss with the same accident. Maybe nothing that unusual was happening to them. Maybe one lady forgot her wallet at home and went back for it. Maybe one guy realized he had to take a big dump just as he was going to leave the house.

(Glad you're alive.)

__________________
"I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. Twenty-six times I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed."
(Michael Jordan)

Ourcrazymodern?

I do not go to worship. My connection to the universe is intact and ongoing. When I have an experience that seems particularly fortunate I just feel thankful and know that (whatever) knows I am. Life beats the alternative, for sure.

Martian

Like Charlatan, I say if it brings you comfort to think that God saved you, more power to us.

We all dodge injury and death on a daily basis. Driving a car, walking down the road, playing sports, even just breathing, everything carries an inherent risk. Granted most of the situations in which we avoid serious harm aren't quite so dramatic; more often, it's avoiding a bad step which might result in a broken bone, or getting out of the street before the traffic comes along and potentially turns you into road kill. Even still, it happens. A few people know it and still manage to go about their daily lives. The rest get by on happy ignorance.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Charlatan

This is exactly what my friend the particle physicist said...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ourcrazymodern?

Happy Ignorance as a blessing and a curse:
I am glad that god has saved me, or I'm Glad that I Have Saved God?

Or the universe doesn't actually care! That would (NOT) be odd! LYA!

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

Nimetic

I've driven past a number of recent accidents. It never dawned on me that this is because god magically delays me.

I guess I must be fairly special to him.

Yakk

They require faith if you have unjustifiable belief in them.

They don't require faith to hold them as theoretical possibilities or models that can be used to form testable predictions or models of the universe.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

little_tippler

why not you, and why them? Do you really think you're above all those others who were caught in the accident? This is all coincidence. Good for you that you weren't involved. I disagree with validating yourself because you escaped it though. It's just life and coincidences.

__________________
Whether we write or speak or do but look
We are ever unapparent. What we are
Cannot be transfused into word or book.
Our soul from us is infinitely far.
However much we give our thoughts the will
To be our soul and gesture it abroad,
Our hearts are incommunicable still.
In what we show ourselves we are ignored.
The abyss from soul to soul cannot be bridged
By any skill of thought or trick of seeming.
Unto our very selves we are abridged
When we would utter to our thought our being.
We are our dreams of ourselves, souls by gleams,
And each to each other dreams of others' dreams.

Fernando Pessoa, 1918

florida0214

Having seen both sides of this arguemtn I am really amused at the stubborness of both sides. I mean there I have never heard of people's cancer just disappearing. I have done a little bit of research in medical journals and simply cannot find it. Maybe I am not looking hard enough. I don't know. I don't see why people cannot blame good things on God. Can you blame bad things on god? Maybe. This is a excert from a book. Some of you may recognize it. I think it may illustrate this point a little. Other maye argue that this only illustrates that God is kind of like a kid with a magnifying glass and we are the Ants. The latter are the people I spoke of earlier. Open your minds hear and opinion and ponder. Don't jump to conclussions. Something that is said might make sense in some strange UNEXPLAINABLE way.

“Anyway Simply thought I would throw this in there. I am not the smartest guy, but I know what I think. If you don't like what I think, I am okay with that. I hope you have a good day and a great life.

__________________
"Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

macmanmike6100

i seriously doubt that god let's drunk father's rape their daughters to teach our race (or even the father) something. or, for example, let otherwise-innocent somalian's suffer malnutrition from birth while their parents are robbed of international aid by warlords.

at the very least, i would rather not believe in god than believe in an omnipotent god who claims to be benevolent and let's these sorts of things happen. it's all faith, anyway.

MuadDib

I'm sorry, but the analogy from that book is awful. There is a world of difference between a father's power to prevent a child from ever hurting himself and G-d's omnipotence. The father has a limited choice in letting him skateboard and possibly be hurt and restricting him from skateboarding. With omnipotent power he could have him skateboard and never get hurt. However, he simply doesn't have that power. Second, the analogy of skateboard accident to all of human tragedy. Let's just take the car accident in this thread for one example. Typical skateboarding accident results in minor injuries with a slim chance of broken bones and a negligible risk of death, while with a typical car accident you have an almost certainty of minor injuries, a high liklitude of major injuries, and a real possibility of death. So yeah, we can say that there is a silver lining to some human tragedy that an omnipotent and benevolent being would allow because we learn and get better from it, but what about those human tragedies that cause or end in death? You fall and skin your knee, you learn to be more careful. You fall and break your neck,you just die. Finally, that analogy has an ends to means problem. The assumption in the story is that you learn some things from bad experiences and that justifies (possibly encourages) letting people you care about do risky stuff. The embedded assumption there is that thats the only way they can get those experiences (i.e. you can't tell them about it or have them experience it without risk). However, that inherently assumes the actor is not omnipotent because if he was he could simply give them that knowledge.

All in all this doesn't relate all that much to the DI discussion, but the clergyman's answer clearly reflects a poor understanding of the problem the question presents.

__________________
"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Yakk

In a God-centric universe, we are living in the Matrix. Pain and suffering caused by the world are just parts of a large "virtual reality" universe.

When we "die" we go on to eternal life.

Now, by the rules of most Christian faiths, a mortal causing suffering or death to another has committed a sin. Why? Because God says so -- this "virtual reality" is a test bed in which you decide if you want to help and love other people, or if you want to hurt and kill other people. You are given the freedom (of will) to embrace the rules of God, or reject God and all of his works.

Your child dies for no reason? So long as some person didn't cause it, there is no evil there. It sucks because you miss him, but God doesn't have rules against God killing people. And if your son used his free will to accept God, then he will have life eternal in the kingdom of God.

...

In other words, to understand the rules of the Christian universe, you have to realize that God makes up all of the rules, determines what is Good and Evil. Anything that God wants or does is, by definition, Good. When free will is used to go against what God wants or does, that is by definition Evil. So when God creates a universe in which people are born into constant pain and suffering -- that is Good. When you cause someone else to suffer constant pain and suffering -- that is Evil.

What someone would naively think as "the universe, that which is, that which matters" is actually just a large shadow-play run by God for whatever Good reason he has. Your time on Earth, and all the suffering therof, is but a blink of an eye in your entire experience.

If you successfully use your Free Will to love God, then you will have Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

If you use your Free Will to reject God (by disobeying his rules, say), then you will have Eternal Suffering in Hell. (some theologians actually believe that Hell is simply the experience of the absense of God -- ie, God doesn't make you suffer, but rather allows you to reject him. And your eternal-life-after-life experience in the absence of God is worse than you could ever imagine -- hence the descriptions of Hell being as bad as the authors in question could describe).

...

Imgine you are playing counterstrike, but a counterstrike that looks really realistic. This is a game. If you obey the rules of the game, shooting other people in the game is not evil. You could be playing "team vs team", with friendly fire on. The game allows you to shoot team-mates, but under the "rules of the game" you are supposed to try to help your team win. The game might even contain places where you could fall and die. You could get ambushed by other players and not stand a chance. It could start people out with randomly allocated weapons, giving people unfair advantages.

Now imagine that what I described is the universe. Nothing but a game you are supposed to play according to the rules God gave you.

__________________
Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Ourcrazymodern?

I had no idea my universe is a Christian!

That could explain a few things.

__________________
BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

paulskinback

Yakk, some very good descriptions given there.

Some people even believe that bad things happen (in the sense of good) to people who don't believe in God - and that is God's way of showing them "the way"

I don't necessarily "buy into" the general beliefs of Christianity but I do believe in "a God" or a higher force, I suppose thats why I made the original post.

Its been nice to see others' opinions

__________________
'Everything that can be invented has been invented.- - 1899, Charles Duell, U.S. Office of Patents.

'There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.' - Ken Olson, 1977, Digital Equipment Corporation