Help the lurkbastids decide whether to procreate...or not!
 

So until about 2 weeks ago, ratbastid and I were 99% sure we didn't want kids. So sure that I got an IUD in January. I'm 33, and the IUD lasts 5 years...by the time it's done, I'll pretty much be too old to have kids.

About 2 weeks ago, I was in a meeting watching a presentation on the effects of prenatal experience on the development of the immune system, and there were all these pictures of pregnant women, or mothers breastfeeding, and god help me if I didn't feel the pull! Strongly! It really weirded me out. Since then I've had two very vivid dreams in which I find myself pregnant despite the IUD and rip it out myself. My therapist says I should indulge myself in the fantasy of having a kid for a while, and see if it's just a passing biological urge, or if it's really something I want. So I'm indulging....and I find myself slipping into the "let's do it!" mindset.

ratbastid, meantime, is still pretty certain he doesn't want this. He can see how it could be pretty sweet, but really we like our lives the way they are. He's not so sure about the whole "indulge the fantasy" exercise (in fact, he pretty much HATES and fears the exercise), but would do this if I really wanted it. He thinks I shouldn't be a slave to my biological urges (and I agree) but should weigh all the options and then...choose.

So I posted in my journal
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/journal...wjournal&j=185
some of my thoughts about things - good and bad reasons to have/not have a kid.

A few points that need to be elaborated:
1. Neither of us has a full-time job at the moment. ratbastid owns his own company, and I work a mish-mash of part-time and freelance jobs. We pay the bills and are digging out rapidly from under our credit cards, but our incomes are far from predictable. We would both be willing to get regular jobs, even if we didn't have a kid to support, if our financial situation merited it.

2. I am most likely a carrier for an X-linked recessive disorder called hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia. http://www.webmd.com/hw/health_guide_atoz/nord804.asp My brother had it, and there's a 50-50 chance I'm a carrier. However, I manifest many of the secondary symptoms (baby teeth, sparse hair, dry skin, sensitive lungs, etc.) and I'm pretty sure I'm a carrier. There's a test for the mutation, but a small percentage of affected people have a different mutation, and according to the test my affected cousin had, we're among that small percentage, so there's no telling for sure. Our options for biological and not adopted parenthood would be:
1. pray
2. sex-selection for females (who could be carriers but wouldn't have the disease) and IVF, which I'm not really willing to do
3. selective abortion of affected male fetuses which I'm DEFINITELY not willing to do

So... we'd have to cross that genetics bridge if we decided to have a kid, and I don't know what to do about it. The issue isn't really the testing - I'm sure I'm a carrier; the issue is what to do about it! We've got a 1-in-4 chance of having a son who's affected, and I'm not sure I'm up to the medical challenges involved, or that I'd want to knowingly take the chance that we could pass this on to our kid - it seems unethical.

I guess my biggest fear is regret. I don't want to reach a certain age and wish I had had kids, or deal with being an old parent. I also don't want to wish I'd NOT had kids and resent him/her (I'd only want 1, I think) for ruining my life!

So...parents and especially NON-parents, we'd love to have your advice and input, preferably on how we should make up our minds than on whether we should or shouldn't do it. So: help the lurkbastids make up their minds!

Needless to mention (so I will), that you ought to think about adoption. This would buy you more time for the "old parent" deadline. Also, adopting a non-infant could shorten the time you needed to dedicate your life to raising a child (down from probably about 20 years).

Otherwise I am indifferrent either way, except that it might be fun to watch Ratbastid lose his hair over this.

Children only 'ruin' your life if that's what you believe, if you beleive that they enhance your life, then that's what they do.

Children are a huge amount of responsibility and will change your life and your lifestyle, for the better or for the worse is entirely up to you.
Children are what you make them... and what you raise them to be.

I think most every woman hears their biological clock ticking at some point, the older we get the louder it sometimes ticks... you can snooze it if you want... but you dont want to snooze so often that you've missed your chance.

Only you can answer the question whether or not you want children, or are ready for children... But it's gotta be a decision that's made together.. your journal entry lists a bunch of reasons for and against... and that's fine, but it's a lot of thinking and overthinking... what if's will drive you crazy... don't be afraid of what tomorrow might bring - be like Scarlett - think about tomorrow - tomorrow...

you have to ask yourself... Are you ready to be a mother and father? And do you really want to be a mother and father?

For the moment, I'd like to take adoption off the table. It's certainly an option, but not our first choice. (I just spent the past 7 years working on a study of children raised in orphanages and have heard far too many horror stories about the effects of early experience on later development...having kids is a crap shoot whatever way you slice it, but the dice are loaded against you with adoption.)

Truthfully...I don't know that anyone is ever really ready to be a parent. But, as far as wanting to be a parent...yeah, that's key. This isn't like deciding that you might like to be an SUV owner. This is, for all intents and purposes...permanent. If you don't like the fuel economy, color, performance or if you really wanted a "stick shift"...you can't trade it in. It's still yours. Always. I know I state the blatantly obvious, but there it is.
Y'know...from experience, I'll tell you...there's nothing so euphoric as the pedestal that a child places it's parent upon. Likewise...there's no hurt worse than when that pedestal colapses around 10 years after it was first erected. Such has been parenthood, I suppose, since the Neolithic.
It's a big decision. One that I know that the two of you will make with the utmost responsibility. I can't imagine a more intelligent, and better looking, offspring than a Lurkbastid baby. Well, save my own first and second ammendments, of course.

by ready i mean -
are you ready to sacrafice certain things in order to have a child,
to put the needs of someone else ahead of your own for a while
to be totally responsible for the care and well being of another life.

I like that first paragraph. It will be what you decide it will be.

At this point in time, I'm a firm believer in Babies Kill Dreams. Why? Because right now I have certain goals that if a baby were to come around, it would seriously deter me from achieving those goals and dreams.

I don't think that anyone is every ready to be a parent. They think they are ready, but challenges arise that one never realized or planned.

Really, it's more a choice of willing to take the challenge of being a parent, whatever may happen in that challenge.

I'll second (or third, I'm not really keeping count) the notion that no one is really ever "ready" for a child, especially the first. My wife and I thought that we were ready for our son to arrive, and 4 months later we laugh at the notion.

We spent a long time talking about kids both when we were dating and after we got married. I came into the relationship against the idea given my trials and tribulations with my brother over the last 15 years. After spending time with her neices and nephews, I warmed to the idea, and I'm pretty happy that I did, especially since our son is now getting to be lots of fun.

I do want to say that Ratbastid needs to be 100% on board for this decision. You (lurkette) could do this all by yourself, but that's not really what this is about.

A couple questions for you ...

- WHAT exactly was the sense of tugging? Was it to the birth experience - the carrying/nurturing someone for 9 months, having a bond with someone, etc? Was it the chance of ownership and pride "That's MY kid", ... what?

- What would it take for Ratbastid to be 150% on board? A marriage is between you and Ratbastid, and even with your kids, your marriage needs to be first in order for you two to provide a healthy family environment to your kids. If your marriage would suffer in the presence of kids because there's serious doubt, that should be a HUGE warning sign.

- How long has the urge lasted? You've spent the better part of a decade from what I can see affirming your choice to NOT procreate ... and it is changed on a whim? While I'm not saying that it isn't possible... just be sure that it's not hormone or emotional related .. if the urge lasts 3-4 months, then in my opinion it would be one to pay serious attention to.

- Are you willing to take care of the baby that falls into that 1-4 chance? If you are not ... pull out. NOW. While technology is advancing greatly.... we still cannot control nature in everything. Because of your brother, I know you have a grasp of what type of life and medical issues may result ... would you still feel the urge to be a parent even if your child was not "normal" by today's standards?

I want to be clear on this so I will chose my words carefully: Lurkette and Ratbastid are the kinds of people who should raise a child just so the world can be a better place because of him or her. I've seen so many people who had no business being a parent have kids. You guys would make absolutely great parents. While HED is very serious, people with HED can live very wonderful and happy lives. I was born with a severe heart disorder, but I love life.

The tugging started as the biological "my body wants to be pregnant" thing, and evolved into a "wanting to nurture and share a new life" thing. Just to be damn sure it's not solely biological, we're not making any decisions about this for at least several months. Meantime, the IUD stays firmly in place and does its job.

See above - it hasn't been long, and I'm interested to see if it lasts. If not...problem solved, I guess!

Hubby and I originally wanted 2 children. After we had one we decided we did not want any more. We THOROUGHLY enjoy the one that we have. I can see that we would stress more than enjoy a second one.

Any goal can still be met even with kids in the picture. Even for a mother. The joy of nuturing an infant is something that no one can completely comprehend until they have their own.

Adoption is not a complete waste. Hubby and his sister (I realize this was years ago but still) were both given up for adoption at birth and he actually went home with his adoptive parents from the hospital. I can happen and in that case you do not have all those same problems.

With the disease/condition that you carry. I do not understand it completely. It actually sounds like my family to a great degree but we were told we simply had immune problems, asthma and anadontia. My brother has nearly no adult teeth and my Dad has developed a Lupus type of immune disorder. Both of my parents were carriers and though it's given us a few hiccups it's not been bad. The condition sounds like there can be many varying degrees of affliction. What is the likelyhood that it would be extremely life altering for a child? How often does it get bad enough to be a big problem? I think that is the question. So many people nowadays are carriers of things but they still succeed in having healthy children.

Keep thinking about it and don't worry about knowing for sure in even less than 6 mo - a year. When I wanted to get my tubes tied the insurance company made me wait 60 days before they'd approve to be sure I KNEW I wanted to do it. Good Luck.

My wife and I havent got kids, but she feels the 'tugging' every now and then. The reason she doesnt listen to it is that it goes away after a while and only happens when she sees the brighter side of having kids..the content new mum, the son hugging the dad, the kids being quiet while out,she doesnt feel it when she sees other women frazzled and at the end of their rope because the children are being naughty. As she says you have to take the good with the bad, and she couldnt see herself taking the bad so well. So think about the good and the bad and communicate with your partner. Hope it works out.

Agree, 100%.

But this decision needs to come from both of you, after a period of several months. Urges come and go; children don't.

When they are teens they do apparently since that's what my parents griped about... "You treat the house like it's a hotel!"

So our boy Wyatt is almost 11 months right now. He has been a wonderful enhancement to our lives to be sure. That being said, not everyone should have kids. In fact, if it were just me or me with another person, I don't think it would be right for me.

There is a lot of pressure in society to be the same. If someone is healthy enough to even ask themselves the question and SERIOUSLY take inventory of whether they should have kids, they are in the minority. Sure people pay the decision to produce a life lip service. If they do an investigation though - they simply process the data that leads them to the end they already choose and ignore the things that point to the contrary.

Most times, if someone who has kids catches wind of your investigation, they tend to take it as an indictment of their "decision". To them you NEED to have kids - just trust them on this fact. You can possibly know for yourself unless you are in the situation. That does not leave a lot of room for those who should not have kids. The key question that everyone seems to miss is "why".

I am pretty selfish with my time. Taking inventory of this fact means that if I am going to have a kid, I better have a partner that shoulders the considerable emotional load that raising a healthy child requires. Chasey challenges me to give a lot to the boy - more than I knew I was capable of - but no so much that I fail. We discussed these things in very clear terms before going forward and setting realistic expectations has really been the key to our (so far) success.

I looked over your reasons and I think they are well thought out and reasonable. The one thing that was interesting to me though was the point about #1 (the job thing). If you HAVE to change to support the kid and you end up doing something or working with people you don't love, that might be able to generate some unrecognised resentment toward the kid. There are lots of things that might do that. Being forced to change for any reason doesn't work out well. Choosing it with open eyes is always much better. I use that example because I would recommend really examining all aspects that might change (vacations, money, religious issues, extended family issues to name a few).

Like I said, I am really happy to see you taking a methodical logical approach to this and I am confident that you will end up in the right place if you go through this the right way.

A final thought, there is certainly a place for children in our lives and a natural instinct to procreate. Look around for ways to address this in a meaningful and rewarding way so that you can't mistake this hole for a real desire to have a kid. I stress the rewarding part because this is not just some charity work. It could simply be a consistent contact with a family member's kid or a specific area where you interact with them (e.g. you can be the t-ball aunt /uncle or whatever). To address it though - I would guess that the contact would need to be both consistent (every week even without an easy "out") and personal.

Good luck you two.

One thing Mondak and a couple of others touched upon and that is 'job'. I'm of firm belief that whether both work or not, living with kids needs to be something that could be done on one salary if need be. Daycare should not be the place a child is raised, but way too many parents fall into that pit thinking they have to have two incomes.
A study done quite a few years ago took daycare costs of any average couple, added it to commuter costs, work-related incidentals, etc. and found that if all expenses were taken out of one salary, that salary would end up being much less than half of what it would be if one parent stayed home-I think one couple used found the woman was making about $2 an hour!(She quit her job).
Kids need basic food and supplies. They don't need the lastest gadgets, the cutesy clothes(let grandparents and aunts and uncles splurge on those); in fact a naked baby is a good thing-at least right after its diaper change!
As for age, I was 37 1/2 when I had my twins. It took a toll on the body a bit more, but then again there were 2 in there, so that was a factor. There's a lot to be said about being an 'older' parent. We saw everyone around us having kids and made a lot of mental notes about what NOT to do. We had our house and things we enjoyed before the kids came. And they came not as surprises because we forgot a pill or condom, but because we so wanted them in our lives and that reflects heavily on how they're turning out I think.
There IS a lot of thinking to do for you both, but the bottom line is that you really have to want this as a goal and know that there are things that could go horribly wrong as well as wonderfully right. But it's the 'horribly wrong' you need to think about. If you can honestly say "I don't care about that" and be prepared for a fight because you want this child so badly, then you're halfway there.

I see two major warning signs here and they've both been covered, but again for emphasis:

This is not something to compromise on, for one. Ratbastid absolutely has to be behind this idea for himself. It can't be something he does for you; otherwise children will put a strain on your relationship and drive a wedge between the two of you. You say you don't want to resent the child for not really wanting it in the first place. Ratbastid is definitely headed in that direction.

Second, you need to be very careful about the hypohidrotic ectodermal dysplasia. The optimistic side to it is that if a child borne by you has a 25% chance of having it, it means he has a 75% chance of not having it. However, that only applies if you're ready for the 25% chance. You need to be prepared for that possibility and the effect it will have on your and your child's life. If you don't feel like you can handle it, wait on having children until you can. It may result in never having children, but if so that's a more responsible choice to make than ending up with a son who has it and not having the will or stamina to deal with the issue.

I just wanted to say that, though I don't really have much to add here to the decision making process, which has already been discussed better and better advice given than I would have, but I did want to say thank you lurkette and the rest for what you've posted, as it has been helpful in shedding some light on the decision making process Grace and I went through and what we need to be preparing for as we move ahead.

I hate to nitpick, but there's a 25% chance a son would have it. That's a 12.5% chance a child would have it. This doesn't, however, affect the rest of what you had to say, it just reduces the likelihood it would come into play.

Gilda

Even in that situation, it's still important to note the possibility. I have Crohn's Disease and, God willing, I'd like very much to have children with the right woman some day. I know that there's a 10% chance statistically that any child of mine would have Crohn's or Colitis as well; knowing the risk, I can allow myself to continue with the knowledge that there's a 90% chance a child of mine will not have Crohn's Disease and that, should it occur, I have the means and experience necessary from coping with my own illness that I can help another through it if it comes to that eventuality. It's not pleasant to think about, but I really do want children of my own and I think that, given the circumstances and nature of the illness, it's worth the risk.

Such is the nature of being a carrier for an illness. If you know there's a possibility for it, you have to weigh the risk and the potential downfall if the worst should occur. Once you've done that and decided to proceed, it's okay to hold onto that guarded optimism.

No disagreement here. I just wanted to point out that there's a slightly higher probability of the best case scenario than you described. The same cautions do still apply, though, I agree.

Gilda

For whatever it is worth, I do not see a good reason for having children.
There are a few selfish reasons - but they are not good reasons, as far as I'm concerned.

Good point. One thing though - if someone is going to stay home and take the primary child rearing duties, there is a double negative to quitting a job. When you are not occupied by work and unless you are VERY disiplined, that person may find ways to occupy idle time with things that spend money instead. I am amazed by the things we suddenly "need" that we never knew we needed before. Shopping / spending money increases in the time that we are not working. We don't agree with daycare for our kid and it does not fit with the goals we laid our for our child. We also have laid out realistic monatary plans that take into account the lack of a second income and the incresed non-child related spending.

The lesson here as always - I need to bring in more money. . .

Mondak (slight threadjack here, but kind of applies to the decision-making process): When my kids were toddlers, I worked part time nights, 6pm to about midnight or so. That way, a parent was with them all the time, it brought in some extra money and got me out of the house. I wouldn't recommend it right off since babies are unpredictable-you think they're sleeping all night and then they decide not to, etc. Everything is a life adjustment when kids come into the picture, for sure.

Art: I agree, there IS no 'good' reason to have a child, but there's no good reason for many of the desires we seem to have except the feeling we get when we succeed in getting them-a very selfish reason, to be sure. But aren't they all....
The only reason to go ahead is their desire to do so. I think weighing the pros and cons makes that desire appear fickle or very real as they go through them, depending on their reactions to those pros and cons.

As a very recent non-parent, now parent, hearing from a non-parent about reproduction is like hearing from a virgin about sex. Lots of opinions but no possible away of understanding what its really like. To me it sounds like you are looking for a reason NOT to have kids and there are reasons not to.

Reasons not to..
1 - I never knew how much freedom I had to do things until I didn't have it.
2 - Money.
3 - Worry. I worry about myself, I worry about my wife, but its nothing compared to the worry I have that something bad will happen to my child.

Those are about it. Kids will cost you money and time if you are a good parent, and will cause you endless worry.

Reasons to have a kid.......

Well first a question. Can you explain how good an orgasm feels like to someone who never had one? I know I couldn't. Likewise I can't explain the total joy a child brings into our lives. Its been amazing, its been the 'completing' moment of our already wonderful marriage.

Sometimes I wish we had more local babysitting, but beyond that I could not imaging going back to where we were three years ago.

I agree with everything, except for the fact that me and the lady aren't married.

I know that's what lurkette said, but it's not what she meant. Warning: Science Content Ahead. Warm up your Punnett Squares.

She has one affected X chromosome and one unaffected X chromosome (her mother was a carrier, her father was not). That makes her a carrier too, but since the HED gene is recessive, it's blocked by the healthy, dominant X chromosome. Girls can't have this disease unless both parents are carriers, and the gene ends up on both X chromosomes.

There's a 50% chance she'll supply the affected chromosome. In which case, there's a 50% chance that I'll supply a Y chromosome, which wouldn't have the corresponding healthy gene to block the expression of the X-linked HED gene, resulting in an affected male child. So, 50% of our male offspring would, statistically, have the disease, or 25% of our children overall. By the same logic, there's a 25% chance we'd have a carrier girl (the category lurkette and her mother are in), and a 50% chance we'd have a completely unaffected child of one gender or the other.

What I meant was, out of the 4 possible phenotypes, where small x is the recessive mutation and big X is the "safe" x chromosome: girl-safe XX, boy-safe XY, girl-carrier xX, boy-affected xY, 1 of them manifests the symptoms of the disease. 1 in 4 chance of having an affected son.

My mistake. I didn't read the OP closely enough, and though that lurkette had a 50/50 chance of being a carrier, resulting in a 25% chance of a son manifesting. She does say clearly that she believes she is a carrier, but I didn't catch that on the first reading. Entirely due to my lazy reading.

I apologize for getting pedantic about something you explained clearly originally and being wrong in the process. Thank you for the correctiion.

Gilda

Well worth a repeat.....


But I will say from experience.....No One can adequately explain the beauty and Joy a Child lends you, simply by being a part of your life.

No. Fucking. Way.

The "biological urges" can hit anyone, and often do- but that is absolutely no reason to suddenly go from being long-standing "99% no" to "oh wow maybe I want this".

There is no reason to succumb to the sudden onset of a temporary (and obviously not very severe) urge. That's like being in a store and having a dying urge to buy a new movie or videogame and giving in to it simply because you felt an urge to do so.

This happened only two weeks ago. That's a paltry, pathetic, and utterly dismissable period of time holding onto an urge when it contradicts up to 33 years (your age) of previously-held opinion. I had an intense, undying urge to buy a Nintendo DS Lite for like a month. That doesn't change the fact that rational thought, and the passage of some time, resolved the desires back into relative non-existance. I realized it was a passing interest that I had neither the financial or time resources with which to support such a lifestyle.

Yeah, you're kinda pulling a fairly sudden 180 on him with the baby thing. To be honest, I think most men (good men) in his position would be as supportive as he's being... having absolutely nothing to do with how completely and rigidly opposed they really are internally, and how much they're concerned you might actually want to go through with it. Being ruled by an urge is bad, yes, but allowing a sudden urge to drag down your partner, whose shared your no-kid policy since the start is just... well, very bad. The "indulge the fantasy" exercise is bullshit, by the way. It's designed to increase those urges, not "help you determine" anything. How in the hell is living out a fantasy going to help you objectively weigh anything? It's not.

Hmm, i'm wondering if I should let a girl have sex with me? I know... I'll have her get naked and gyrate/move in front of me to recreate the "fantasy" of the sex act, and then I can make an objective decision on whether or not that's something i'd like. [/sarcasm] I'm sure your therapist is very knowledgable and all that, but this method is very suspect, and psychologists in general have tons of differing opinions on how to treat things. Of course you're slipping into "let's do it", you're hyping yourself up into it!

I have a 6-month rule about tattoos... I won't get anything inked on me for at least 6 months after I finalize the idea for it... but you're thinking of having a kid... being impregnated, birthing, and raising a child for the rest of your life, based on an urge and two dreams over the course of 2 weeks? :) No. No no no. :)

If nothing else, consider the financial aspect. Think to yourself... IF you were to ever want a kid... would you really want to do it without predictable income? I mean, all exacting measurements of financial status aside, unpredictable income can cause any money-status, good or bad, to suddenly deteriorate quickly. There's also the genetics issue of having a child (forbid it) with a serious health issue.

Give it more time. Think about it longer. A lot longer. Give it several months. You will almost definitely come out of this urge and wonder what the hell you were thinking. ;) lol... Or, who knows. The point is, 2 weeks and a couple of dreams should not cause you to ignore your previous, strong, long-standing opinions on having a kid. You had those dreams because you thought about being a mom. It's not a cosmic push or deity-induced "vision" of your life's new mission. Don't give in.

...and for every parent who gives you that "you have no idea what kind of joy you get from a child" and blah blah blah bullshit... ignore it. That's not an argument for having a kid, it's an opinion of their feelings. The opinionated feelings of a parent have no business in making a real, important, permanent decision like this. Someone else liking something is not at all a compelling argument/reason to do it.

Good luck. :)

To the gainsayers that think there is no good reason to have a child...
If adoption is not an option then we need good, healthy, intelligent couples to procreate or the number of stupid people on the planet will overrun the intelligent ones. There's way to many stupid people who have too many stupid kids. Lets produce a FEW smart ones at least. :lol:

You know these days the term "LOL" overused I think. In this case I actually laughed out loud. Great point here. I love hyperbole.

Oh yeah, and ustwo's post made me laugh for a different reason as well but not out loud.

You compare buying a Nintendo and getting a Tatoo as valid arguments against having a child yet those of us who have them give nothing but bullshit arguments? :rolleyes:

What do you think having a child is, some sort of risk/reward argument that you can put on a sheet of pros and cons and come to a conclusion?

When we decided to have a child I was less than enthused, its a big change and change is scary. Once she was pregnant I got even more uncomfortable with the whole idea. Only an ass would just assume they were going to be a good parent or that they were ready for it. I'm glad I didn't take a tally sheet and try to do the math to figure out if having a child was the 'right' thing to do. My only regret is that we didn't do it sooner.

We of course know a number of childless couples, they have done their best to overthink their way out of having children, and I feel sorry for them. One of my best friends is one of these people, and its pathetic and sad seeing his wife treat their dog like a child and not being aware of the substitution.

The biological clock ticking is more than a cliche, its a truth for women, they only get so many years where they can have children, and the longer you wait the bigger the chance of problems.

There are a great number of parents who should not be parents, you can see them on any episode of cops. These people still have children because what makes them bad parents is not thinking of consequences before action. On the other hand the people not having kids ARE the ones thinking about consequences, and ironically they would be the best parents but they talk them self out of it, paralyzed by their own fears.

OK....good points on all sides. Keep 'em coming! This is great food for thought, and I find myself horror-stricken by the fact that Ustwo is making sense to me! ;) But then, so is Analog. You guys are just carrying out externally the argument I'm having with myself.

While we're at it, add these to the list of thoughts I'm spewing:

Another (good? bad?) reason not to have a kid:

- overpopulation and environmental destruction. We don't need more people on the planet, its resources are taxed enough as is, and another American kid is just going to add to the rampant consumption of resources.

Another (good? bad?) reason to have a kid:

- The thought of NOT doing it, of missing that particular opportunity to grow and to have that sweet experience, makes me very sad.

Thoughts? Particularly on the ethics of having a child in an already overpopulated world.

Childless implies that one cannot have children, one is "barren" or "poor swimmers." There are some like my wife and I who have made a conscious decision to be childfree. A decision to not have children because it doesn't fit our lifestyle choices.

While we treat our cats child like sometimes, we cannot however do what we do with the cats to children, such as leave them completely unsupervised for 8+ hours M-F.

We cannot leave them from 3 weeks and have someone just come over and add food and water to the bowl and clean the litter.

If we could then maybe we could be parents...

but that's the consequences of decisions... learning to live the with the fact you made a decision. Sure, I'm sad that I didn't get to see Dances With Wolves on the big screen, supposedly it is so much more moving. Focusing on the negative well, then you forsake the positives which you should go all in for gratitude.

Childfree wiki re: overpopulation...I'd counter that someone needs to be brought up with the idea that there needs to be some conservation of resourses. If you don't procreate and pass on your thoughts, then the thought just dies out with you.

I have read and re-read this thread and I just don't have anything to say about it other than this:

Everything that everyone has said here is bunk (as far as you should be concerned). In the end there are no pros and cons. In the end, all of these arguments fall away and you are left you and Ratbastid.

It is a hard decision, it is an easy decision... but it is one you have to ultimately make together and based only on who you are and what you want from life.

I need to add to my earlier points that you should think about not only where you are now but where you want to be 10 and 20 and 30 years from now. Do you see yourselves being in the twilight of life and being unhappy with no children? Do you see yourselves being happy that you are free to travel? It's a tough exercise but a necessary one. When I tried looking in my own crystal ball, I found it hard to imagine myself NOT being a little league or soccer coach or teaching someone to shave. But that's me and should in no way reflect on anyone else.

Ok I was waiting for this but hoping it wouldn't come up. Not to be a dick but its one of the most silly arguments I've ever heard and its come up long before this. Its silly on evolutionary and political level, and the ironic thing is more people who buy into this the more you will see the opposite effect in the long run.

Evolutionarily what you are saying is 'my genes are not worthy of being passed on so I'll let someone elses take over while I die childless.' People are going to breed no matter what, but while you worry about the carbon foot print of your potential child they already have theirs. You are encouraging a long term shift in the population dynamics.

Politically its even more clear. When you are gone, you are gone, the planet will be run by the children of those who decided to have children. To make an exaggerated example, if everyone who thought there were too many people and they would justify not having children in some altruistic sacrifice of genetic fitness, the next generation is going to be Mormons, mexicans and southern republicans. This type of effect is already believed to have happened due to abortion in the US.

The population of the Western world is DECLINING, less and less of us of European stock are being born, there is no overpopulation where we live and all you are saying is 'let others have it' your sacrifice will do nothing but ensure others who do not share your world view are in charge later on.

If you don't want to have a kid, don't have a kid, but for the flying spaghetti monsters sake, don't even dream of falling for the overpopulation poppycock.

While I do overall agree that this is a huge, life-changing turn, and that no one should abandon one's previous life-long commitment over a two-week old urge...People change. It's the nature of life. I can't imagine being so rigid that one shouldn't even entertain the notion that a decision that was right for a person when they were 21 is exactly the same choice that holds true 10-15 years down the road.

For the record, I am child-free, and intend to remain that way for the rest of my life. I'm not a kid-hater, though, LOL!

I would personally suggest going a year, and noting every thing that happens as if you already had a child, and alternatively, a child with the disability that you mentioned. Every holiday (it could be the mast amazing, most fun thing ever, or the kid could spend the entire time throwing up, causing you to have to cancel your pre-paid, no refund vacation plans...), every *first* (snow, swim, pickle, emergency room visit). Kinda like the "Life" game on a large scale, I suppose.

Come ON. They're asking for input here, and the feelings of folks who have done this already is part of that input. If someone were to ask me if they should go to Europe or Egypt, I'd say, "Yeah, go for it!" because *I* went, and enjoyed it. Had good *feelings* about it, and those incalcuable intangibles are what motivates us a human beings. There were times in Egypt especially where I was sick as a dog, hotter than heck, and in great pain--yet it all came together for an unforgettable, life changing experience that I would encourage everyone to live for themselves. (Quite a promotional tourist statement for Egypt, eh?)

As Mal and later Cyn said, "It will be what you decide it will be," regardless of the externals. Heck, read my sig!

Its rather hard to imagine something like the feeling you get when they first learn to walk, first time they say 'Daddy' (and mean it).

Anyone who knows me, knows that I will beat you down for any opinion based on emotionalism. If someone lets there emotions get into a political or environmental debate I'll make them hate me by tearing apart their illogical argument and rubbing their noses in it. In some topics, mostly those topics where the lives of millions of people are effected, emotionalism has no part.

The idea of having children is the one topic where logic has very little place. It IS all about emotions. Love isn't based on logic and having a child is about love. It is something you are NOT capable of understanding until you have one. I could rationalize having a child before I had one, but I couldn't understand it. I thought I understood, but I was wrong. I recall a friend of mine who was out of town for business saying he couldn't wait to get back to see his wife and child and it struck me as a bit odd. His kid was pretty young, he was only gone a few days, I would think he was glad to be free of his kid for a few days. Now I understand that feeling. Hell I'm going out of town for a week soon and I already know I'm going to miss my son.

I can probably say unequivocably that no one here worked harder or went through more crap to have a child. Towit: 10 years of fertility treatments, 3 surgeries, including exploratory, one that had to reconstruct my lower abdominal organs and the final one, which, as a procedure called GIFT, produced the twins(out of 15 eggs and 5 implanted). We were in contact with two separate adoption agencies, one in Manhattan that finally turned us down as it was during the '88 Olympics in Seoul and Korea suspended all out-of-country adoptions during that time. The second agency kept us on, even after the GIFT because, as they so eloquently put it, we may still want more children and there are so many waiting in so many countries. Which brings me to this:
I understand the 'gut-pulling' instinct to want to experience the entire process. What I did not expect, and I don't think anyone really does until it happens to them, are the dangers, the mishaps, the absolute terror that comes over you. I almost lost my son twice, I was on total bedrest the entire second trimester and again half the last. Wanting to be pregnant is truly selfish and anyone who says it isn't is lying. It's not really a bad selfish, but selfish nevertheless. Adoption solves many of the issues you face in this decision. You become a parent; you WILL get a baby, albeit possibly 4-6 months old, but a baby. It will be healthy, unless you specify otherwise. It will be part of a loving home, made more so because it is TRULY wanted. Adoption doesn't add to population woes, it's a tiny salvation from them. As the aunt to two adopted boys and having friends who have adopted from Korea and Colombia, I can honestly tell you, they ARE parents in every sense of the word and moreso because they fought and desired so hard to make that dream a reality. And you can even nurse your adopted baby! Takes some dedicated work, but it can be done.

Is the long winded way of saying...

If you two had one child, and one child only...then wouldn't that decrease the Lurkbastid population by a full 50% when your time was up?
Look...in the end, Charlatan was absolutely correct when he said that "everything that everyone has said here is bunk (as far as you should be concerned). In the end there are no pros and cons. In the end, all of these arguments fall away and you are left you and Ratbastid".
One thing that I will add...if you two do decide to have a child...given his parentage...that kid is destined for greatness. At the very least...that's gonna be one lucky kid...the cards are already stacked in his/her favor.


Yeah!! Ain't that some scary assed shit?!? I hate when that happens. I'll frequently look outside to make sure that the sky is still blue.

Oh, I know, I know. But it doesn't hurt to try, right? What other kind of advice can a childless woman offer, anyways? Suggest to help out with other people's kids? Even I know that doesn't offer a clear view of a parent's life, but it's not a bad attempt to comprehend the non-comprehendable before one's irrevocably commited long-term, eh?

By the way, I am really enjoying reading people's input here, particularly the fathers. I can't even imagine what it would ever have been like to have a loving father, so it's cool to know they truely do exist, and to have an inside view of their minds. It's like talking to a unicorn, heh.

On the overpopulation thing: It is mine (and my family's) firm belief that it just makes sense to reproduce twice. Then your effect is net zero, you are replacing yourselves and yourselves only. :) Mom didn't mean to have me too!

You and the RB will have to figure this part out yourselves. But if you'd like a reality check, take some nephews or something for a week - one whole week - and see what it's like. That still won't be a real feeling, because real parents do it gradually and the kids will be on overdrive from excitement, but it'll be a hint of that other reality.

Other than that? I can't tell you. I'm still deciding for myself! Mostly, I find I want to someday... because I want to teach and grow and share with a little sponge. Besides, what I really want to do is direct! (Meaning, I have so many ideas on how to raise a kid... I ought to just do it myself and stop mentally chastising my friends and relatives. :lol: )

And don't decide this summer. Maybe next summer. :*

You are scared not because you agree with me on this issue but because you fear I may be right on all the other issues as well.

Verily you will come to my way of thinking, counteraction is ineffectual.

See I wrote words in complete sentences so that people could read and understand them, not skim and surmise their own version. I was using them as examples of having temporary urges, which I talked on with great detail and you managed to completely ignore anyway, and to not give in immediately to an urge that directly contradicts long-standing personal choices.

I also, thanks again for skimming and not actually reading, didn't say people gave nothing but bullshit arguments. I said the argument of "you don't know the joy" is an emotional argument, and therefore total nonsense. You cannot make a valid argument based on an emotional opinion. Period. THAT is what I said, quite clearly.

Yeah, actually, it is. People make pro/con lists all the time for having a child. I think it's very important and smart for people to have realistic conversations that detail the issues they may face as parents. Are you suggesting no one should ever consider the negatives of having a child? The decision to have a child is hardly a decision that should be made hastily or without consideration.

You've gotta be fucking kidding me. You talk down to childfree couples like they're ignorant and pathetic? I feel sorry for you that having children has permanently fucked up your mental processes into thinking you're better than everyone because you've managed to pull off the banal, uneventful, and completely mindless task of procreation. Congratulations on accomplishing what people in caves and all mammals in existence for all time figured out how to do without any brainpower whatsoever. Yeah. Wow. That's special. How unique. Thumbs up. Gold star. Maybe I should hand out trophies because you eventually figured out which hole it goes in.

So now the conscious decision to not have kids makes us cowards? Is this another one of those emotional opinions that counts as a valid argument again? Because I need to keep tabs on which emotional opinions used as arguments by parents slip by the universal rule of "emotional opinions don't make valid arguments".

And yet somehow having a child suddenly doesn't apply to this.

Parents actively disregard the fact that their opinions are based, built, and structured on emotions. Look at the argument here. You'll destroy an argument based on emotions- but oh no! Here comes an argument about children based on emotions. Oh, that's ok. Because it's about children. Forget that nonsense. There are a million and nine issues for which a person would have nothing but emotionaly-based opinions. The issue of "children" doesn't get a free pass from the same judgment just because they're fucking children.

Methinks ustwo struck a nerve.

For what it is worth Analog, I wondered the same thing about ustwo's argument. When it comes down to it, I suspect it would be best to simply discard what he said since there is really nothing there. I mean:

1. There are people in this world (who are not on "Cops", stupid, cowards, pathetic, etc.) who should not have children.

2. Making the argument based on something like "You just have to trust me, it is the greatest thing ever, but you could never understand the evidence for it unless you are already a part of it" does not leave a lot of room for people in group #1 to make a healthy decision.

I named my kid "Wyatt" for this very reason. His name is a contraction of my favorite question which is "Why is that?". I figure that if I don't do a perfect job raising him, but the one thing he knows is never to trust people on blind faith (ustwo's argument is a great example) and instead to gather his own measurable evidence, the kid will be just fine.

As I said in my first post, I find most of the time people who are following something on blind faith (e.g. having kids is right, therefore I no longer need to question and also I never needed to question) react badly to those who are questioning whether this is the right thing for them or not. They take it as an indictment of their own decision rather than allowing it to be simply for those who are trying to make the choice.

I don't think I could say anything here that would define my opinion and my experience in regards to parenthood, better than what i said here: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=102295

Be brutally honest - does anyone here think that having children was a mistake? Do you know people who have had kids and wish they hadn't?

On the flip side, do you know people who have chosen not to have kids who regret it? Not like "wish I'd gone to Fiji instead of Cancun" sort of regret, but deep "my soul will never be complete now" regret?

Please don't try to lecture me on reading comprehension after you post this, obviously you did a bit of skimming there youself. I did no such thing, I said people who subsitute pets for children are sad and its pathetic. If you haven't seen it then you will some day.

Sorry you are mad at me, but you dont' have a clue about children. From what I recall you are in your 20's, still in school, without a serioius relationship yet you are here to give advice on having children? What makes you think you are in any way qualified to even begin to give advice to a married couple wondering if children are right for them? You have been very 'anti' child in several posts in the past, I have to wonder why.

lurkette, yes

my ex-wife...see the link in my previous post in this thread for the explanation.

While I know several people who regret their marriage I don't know any that regret their children, at least not openly.

As for the childless couples we know, after a couple has been married for several years without children, its a topic no one ever brings up first. I've never heard anyone voice regret but these couples at at their oldest in their early 40's.

I know I'm not qualifed to answer either of these questions as I don't regret my child and we are planning on when to have our second, but you know what works for other people only counts for them. I'm sure you can find a couple that regrets having children and I'm sure you can find a couple suffering from great regret over not having any.

For our lifestyle I want to have only two kids, but there are times I would like to have 12. We are big enough hedonists that I'm sure we will stop at two, but even then I fear we may regret it later.

Lurkette, I've had a recurring thought in my life... My parents had me first, and pretty much got what people think they're going to get. A healthy, relatively intelligent child who grows up well and does more good than harm (at least so far). So then they had my little sister, probably banking that number 2 would be like number 1.

She's had nothing but health problems, starting with a birth defect, continuing with cancer in infancy, more with complications including learning disabilities, hearing impairments and emotional development issues. Today they find themselves parenting a 22 year old who lives at home and produces all of the strains and stresses that a 14 year old would. And there's no real end in sight to this.

I truly believe that my parents love my sister and are glad she was born... But I think that you have to at least consider that you may be getting into something that you're not imagining. How many people actually think that they'll end up with a perpetual adolescent in their homes - even until they are trying to retire?

*edit* Ustwo is making lots of good sense to me. Thanks for posting.

I have some good friends, my age, who are childless by circumstance, not choice and have simply accepted their fate and moved on. They have a fantastic relationship, do well-can afford vacations, food, etc. ;) I don't know if they lament not trying harder, though. They have never let on about it.
I don't know of anyone who regretted having their kids, although I'm pretty sure my sister-in-law should never have had kids (she has two boys); she's just not Mom material, although she loves her kids to death, she can be very cruel and biting toward them if they piss her off and would smack them on the head many times-something that just made my skin crawl. The boys are one year and 3 weeks apart, which hints at how much thinking she's done.
My ridiculous(to some) quest to have kids was that 'my soul will never be complete' feeling. I didn't follow protocols set in place by the fertility clinic; they said 7 treatments, I'd be back for the 8th, 9th, 10th. And I think that's the crux of the pursuit.
Like Charlatan said, everything here as reasons for and against is bunk. We base our suggestions on how we are responding to our own lifestyles. Ultimately, it must be your true desire that answers all your questions, whatever that desire is.

Then what's my reason?

I don't know, I didn't claim to have great mindreading powers. Not all childless couples replace a child with a pet they treat like a child, but I feel sorry for those that do, they are obviously missing something in their lives.

Perhaps that you and your spouse did make the conscious decision together(and not as 20 year-olds still making their way early on) , for whatever reason instead of simply dismissing any who decide otherwise as merely being emotional? Just a guess....
Which brings me to this pondering: Why is the decision to not have kids logical but the decision TO have them called emotional? I could take a few guesses, but I think it all boils down to where our own selfishnesses(new word) lie.

Pathetic, sad, and basically calling the person stupid for not seeing what they're doing. Yeah, you did look down on this childfree couple and pass judgment, and you did call them pathetic and sad. I didn't say you called ALL childfree couples pathetic and sad, now did I? But I'd bet a shiny silver dollar that they are hardly the only couple on whom you've made that judgment, so don't cry at me like you made an innocent comment and are being berated for no reason.

I'm not mad, I'm just really disappointed.

25. Not still in school, back in school. I decided to pursue a life of medicine, starting with saving lives as a Paramedic. I've had a few serious relationships, and those women didn't want kids any more than I did. And no, i'm not at all giving advice on having children- I'm not sure where you got that impression. I'm giving advice on NOT having children.

I'm giving advice from the perspective of a person who is happily child-free. I try and help as best I can, though I don't have the luxury of being able to justify condescending to anyone I feel like, simply because one of my sperm once fertilized an egg- a thoroughly pedestrian feat. I just have to deal with the platitudinous remarks, dubiously offered up as actual arguments, of haughty breeders.

Lurkette can make up her mind as to how my opinions weigh in her mind. My qualifications are simply that I don't want children, and that is one side of her dilemna, just like your qualifications in this matter are that you're a breeder, her other consideration. So far, the only argument FOR CHILDREN has been that all us childfree people are too stupid and unenlightened to see it your way. Well, arguments don't work that way. That's just an opinion. Either way, opinions do not require qualifications. Just like posting in threads doesn't necessarily require a person to have a point...

And you've been very 'pro' child in your posts in the past, where's your fucking point? You've given me no reason to believe you have a point, but I have to assume maybe there is one anyway, though I can't see it.

One of the points, if I may steal Ustwo's mike as he gets a cold glass of whatever....is that someone not 'settled down' with that one special SO, etc., may not be considered the best authority on the decision to not 'breed'. Hell, I know I certainly wanted nothing to do with kids as a single, although I had assumed at some point I'd probably be a single mom, not a married one. And I still don't like kids I don't know. Hearing a whining kid at work or in public anywhere makes me cringe, no matter what their age.
I don't really care for babies much either(don't ask me if it's cute, please) and seeing adults get gushy and hearing their voices go up 3 octaves while they try to get a kid's attention makes me want to gag. (I never did that with my kids-it's assinine to me). The only time I even pay attention at all is if I see twins. And don't even get me started on kids allowed to run rampant as mommy or daddy say sweetly, "honey, could we not do that, please?" BLEH!
Being a parent is ALL emotion. It's love, it's stress, it's all-consuming. Some really suck at it. Some don't.
As for the pet substitution, I have friends that do that and it's really embarrassing to watch them babytalk to their dogs or cats, insist on treating them like children and then adding the insult of comparing those animals to my kids. I know you love'em, folks, I loved my dog too, but they're PETS.

Nope. Two wrongs don't make a right. The thing is that creating a life and being responsible for it is a decision that you should take seriously. Either way, a real hard look at one's emotional health as well as ability to give yourself to your child without resentment or expectation of "thanks" should really happen. Chasey and I like to think that we came to the conclusion to our decision to have a child logically. It is funny to us to watch people's reactions when they find out we are only having one. Same sort of idea here.

People work themselves into a healthy lather when they find out that you don't want to have a kid or want to have a different amount of children than they decided (or "decided") to have. When they can't give reasons that make sense, sometimes they react by striking out at those who may have spent some time thinking about it instead of looking into themselves for the root of their contradictions.

I think it was John Galt who said, "there is no such thing as a contradiction, only a problem with your premises".

I didn't want to have a kid at the time, wasn't planning on having a kid at the time, was not set up financially to support a kid in the long run. I have a kid. I love the shit out of her and i love the shit out of having a kid. If all goes according to plan i will be set up financially in the near future. Being a parent isn't the easiest thing in the world and certainly requires a complete overhaul of the way one lives one's life, but i do believe that it's a worthwhile thing to do. There are many things that are intangibly great about having a kid that can't be described, only experienced. There are many things that can really suck about having a kid. As far as i'm concerned the positives far outweigh the negatives. For me.

I don't know you guys well enough to tell you whether you should have a kid or not. I just know that it can be pretty fucking amazing.

Ah, but why was that choice made? Whether someone decides to have 0,1 or 6, it is a selfish decision. No one can say without a doubt that their decision is ONLY for the good of the world or for mankind, or anything else. No one can say without a doubt that ONLY the child they have is going to do great things.
To go another way, same result though: I wanted more kids. Why? There was no reason on earth to have any. Spouse said no way. So, we have the two. The 'reasons' not to have more certainly were logical: expense, no room in the house, the toll it'd take on me physically and the age I'd be.
Being illogical in a decision to have one would be, inarguably, no home, no income, no support, etc. But logical reasons to have any don't exist. Logical timing does.
You knew the time was right, you knew you wanted this or maybe some other reason. But in the great scheme of things, we bring children into this world for a myriad of reasons, some totally illogical and a few downright ridiculous, but the final reason is the desire to do so at a time in our lives that is right. For us.

...that assumes that we view being selfish as bad. Let me tell you now, we had the kid for selfish reasons. We had the kid to enrich OUR lives. We didn't do it for the world or directly, even for him. It just so happens that we are rather comfortable in the concept of being selfish and doing things for ourselves. That does not mean being selfish has to hurt others in the process either.

So the "why" question that makes the most sense to me is: will YOUR life be better after kid(s)?

My previous advice was to go through everything that the choice will affect (which is pretty much everything there is...) and see where that puts you. Sometimes kids can put some distance between a couple temporarily as your emotional focus has to shift. Can everyone handle that? What activities do you like? If the answer is that your favorite thing to do is watch Barney on TV, then that might be a check in the right direction.

Is it possible to get away with being a parent and not watching Barney? Pleeeeease?

I have grand visions of being one of those granola crunchy parents taking their kid to the park and the museum and outdoor concerts and reading Baby Shakespeare and stuff, and not having to listen to insipid kid's music and watch Bob the Builder or Dora the Explorer. Is it possible to get away with that, or do you have a kid and you'll do anything to entertain them, even if it means caving to mass culture? Having worked with developmental scientists, I know that a normal environment with pots and pans and some bright colors will pretty much do the trick, developmentally. But culturally, is it hard (impossible) to be a parent and avoid all the kiddietainment?

YES!! ABSOLUTELY! I have yet to watch, or allow my offspring to watch, a single episode of the purple abomination. I have however resigned myself to Bob the Builder, The Wiggles, Thomas the Tankengine, etc etc. Draw your own limits. Hell...no TV at all is an option. Not a fun one...but an option, nonetheless.

As a former full-time nanny...I second this. I never once subjected the children in my care (or myself for that matter) to Barney. However, I did enjoy Thomas the Tank Engine, Theodore Tugboat, and Jay-Jay the Jet Plane. Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers are also classic favorites, and personally, that's about all I watched growing up.

So you had a kid because all the affects were good and you liked watching Barney?

By that logic no one should have kids ever.

There are almost NO logical reasons for having kids. Unless you think in terms of species and genetics there is no 'reason' for children that has a direct logical tie.

I don't like changing diapers, I don't like being stuck home on a Friday night, I don't like the watching 'The Wiggles', I don't like spending money on tiny clothes, I don't like picking food off the floor, I don't like little hands trying to hit my keyboard while I type, I don't like being woken up at night because of a bad dream, and I don't like waiting for the kid to fall asleep to get laid.

Oddly its all worth it, and doesn't seem to be much of a bother.

I also wanted to weigh in on the analog/Ustwo debate...

First...analog, hon, take a deep breath and quit taking everything so personally. I asked for advice and opinions and that's what Ustwo is providing. I see people treat their dogs like kids and it drives me nuts, too! And I do feel sorry for them, and condescending toward them, and I'm not even a breeder! It's not that they chose not to have children that makes them pathetic, it's that they chose to sublimate what's obviously a nurturing, child-having urge and are taking it out on some poor canine. That doesn't strike me as particularly healthy, nor fulfilling human potential. Having been on your side of the fence for most of my adut life, I know how often the "childfree" are subjected to criticism, ridicule, condescension, and that patronizing "you'll change your mind" crap. So I know it's easy to be very sensitive and see that everywhere, and go off on it. But I find that it's a lot easier to just let it roll off your back and instead of digging in your toes and pushing back, just "tai chi" the comments and say, "y'know what, you could be right! I might change my mind. But right now, this is where I am. And I'm comfy here." And right now where I am is comfortably uncertain. I'm exploring, and trying to see all the sides of things, and that includes the possibility that if I think for too long and think myself out of having kids, I might very well regret it. But I can regret it and still have a full and wonderful life. The whole "logic/emotion" debate is a red herring for the real issue, which is that there is no one right choice, and everyone makes up their own minds based on completely idiosyncratic and uniquely idiotic/selfish/emotional/logical/mysterious reasons. I think Ustwo's just saying "yes, having kids is great, and you can't know how great till you do it. Don't be one of those people who wants it, and thinks themselves out of having it, and then goes batshit buying doggie sweaters to make up for it." He's entitled to think we should do this, and you're entitled to think we should not. I don't feel condescended to, and in the event that we choose not to have kids, Ustwo will probably think we've made a mistake. And he might be right. But it'll be OUR mistake, and our lives to make the best of with what we have. In the end, unfortunately, all of your (y'all's) reasons are just grist for the mill and we'll have to make up our minds ourselves. I wish I had a great big magic 8 ball that would tell me what to do :)

While my child will NEVER watch Barney, and we avoided all TV for the first year, you very quickly realize who childrens programing is for, and its the parents. Imagine a little dynamo of limitless energy who is able to do all sorts of fun things like try to turn on the stove burners, climb stairs, empty the pots and pans drawers, which all are as fun as any toy. Now imagine if you wanted to concentrate on some other task besides watching this dynamo without wondering if the house will explode or you will need to make a trip to the emergency room. The Wiggles on DVD helps out a lot here.

I don't think they are 'bad' in any way, he learns a lot while watching, and its only a small portion of the day for him, but when you need that break its really nice to have.

'fruit salad, yummy yummy, fruit salad, yummy yummy.'

Here you go.
"Reply is hazy. Try again". :rolleyes:

I don't think I have any good advice on how the two of you should decide whether or not to have children. It sounds to me like you're already taking a sound approach, and I certainly think that you can't repress these feelings; much better to acknowledge them. Just remember you can't really make a wrong decision in this circumstance; regardless of which way y'all decide to go, you can choose to regret not taking the other path, or you can choose to embrace the one you're on. It does sound to me like there's a lot going on right now that might reasonably be acerbating the situation; biological clock and similar psychological factors, close friends having children, and so forth. I think the best thing you can do is what you're already doing; be aware of it, take time and let it marinate, and let the decision come to you.

As for a logical reason to have children, which is not specifically tied to a consider of genetics and preservation of an appropriately stocked gene pool; some have argued that giving birth is one of the primary ways in which humans can achieve a state of quasi-immortality. Make of it what you will, but I think its an interesting concept.

*gets ready to get yelled at for insensitivity*

May I ask what you are in therapy for? I mean, if it for something serious, and you need time to get your head right, then making a decision about having kids should probably be delayed, regardless of any tic-toc sounds or whatever anyone here thinks.

Also, I agree with ustwo - if you don't have kids, you can't know what it is like. Neither a pet, nor a baby brother, nor working in childcare, nothing compares.

That was a truely professional way to interpret that. The nations news organizations would be proud of the way you completly ignored the point of what was being said and choose to use something totally out of context.

Thanks for helping me find a person whose opinions I should ignore.

Alright everyone, I think we can all agree that most people tend to have strong opinions on the subject of having kids. Let's not let those opinions affect the way we act and react in this discussion. It doesn't do anything to help lurkette in her search for thoughts on the matter.

/mod

Allow me to go by this point by point.

Meaningless statement every decision you make in life is selfish. We make our choices in what gives us the most pleasure or the least pain. A saint is a saint because that is what makes them the most happy, likewise so dose the villain. As such there is nothing to see here.

Meaningless as it will be impossible to answer until you have done it. You can not 'imagine' being a parent and have the same feelings you have as one. This has been described by many in this thread. To use my first example its like explaining what an orgasm feels like to a virgin.

Which is where my post comes in. Going through a list of tangibles to decide the value of an intangible is fruitless. Unless you understand what having a child is really like, you can't put up a balance sheet.

And as you can see here my post was an obvious rebuttal of this. If you were trying to be sarcastic with the Barney line, you need to know that sarcasm doesn't work in text form. If you were serious then you musta liked Barney to have a kid based on your logic. As I rather doubt you like Barney, and yet you had a child, I'd have to ask why you even bothered putting something so ridiculous in your post.

So in conclusion, I don't care all that much what you think of me here. I'm concerned for Lurkette who I feel something of a bond with due to our past conversations. She seems to understand my posts, and thats what is important to me here here, not your opinion.

I would say don't do it, since you were 99% sure you didn't want kids up until just recently. It could just be the hormones of the IUD speaking.

My 2 cents: get a TiVo. You can select what is available to your child. I'm a huge fan of "Peep in the Big Wide World". You didn't mention music: check out this Salon article about "Kindie Rock".

lurkette: I'm not upset, never was, I'm just making conversation. Heated debate doesn't mean i'm losing my cool- far from it. :)

TiVo is great and has allowed us to at least feel like we're keeping somewhat in touch with the world that exists outside of diapers, pacifiers and sleep training. That said, the only thing that my kid has ever watched on TV is the goddamn Chicago White Sox, despite the fact that my wife and I had an agreement before we were married (approved by the priest that married us, no less) that any children would be babtised Catholic (for her) but raised Cubs fans (for me). I know that the Cubs are godawful this year, but there are worse things than Barney - like Ozzie.

/threadjack

It's a valid question. At the moment, I'm in therapy (and he's not a licensed therapist, more of a 'life coach') dealing with some nagging self-esteem issues that I can't seem to kick. I know I'm not ugly, and yet I relive my feelings of junior high insecurity from time to time. It's not the kind of thing that requires "therapy" - it's just the kind of negative mental feedback that I know is illogical and yet occurs on a very emotional and physical level where logic doesn't help. So I'm doing some work on uncovering the roots of it and "reprogramming" my scripts around my physical self-image.

More answer than you wanted, really, but you asked. I am on medication for depressio but more for maintenance than for active treatment of symptoms - I've been exercising regularly and doing the things I need to do to prepare to step down my dosage and get off the Paxil.

This is not a decision we're going to make in the next 2 months. More like 6 months to a year.

lurkette, my post is in your journal.

Ustwo, thanks a lot. I now have the fruit salad song in my head.

/me doesn't understand why anyone is in a discussion which should involve only two people...

I believe it has something to do with getting a point of view of someone "outside looking in".

Um...cause we asked them to be?

It's not like we're taking a poll and treating the results as binding. Now THAT would be interesting...

We just want a variety of perspectives to help inform our decision-making process. In the end it'll come down to the two of us discussing and choosing, but I'd rather get real-world perspective from people who have been there than go read a book or something.

Not too much of a variety though, I noticed. Those of us who have kids, no matter what age the kids are and no matter what age we became parents, are pretty much in agreement that it's awesome, if a very difficult job. Those who don't have kids don't get the connection, really and, having been there myself, I can relate. I still do in a way since kids I don't know but who make their presence known in a variety of ways, I don't like (seems every day at work at the sound of a whiner or crier, I'm mumbling to 'shut that damn kid up!')
I think that, if I had to do it over again, the only thing I would change is that I'd have been even MORE diligent in my fertility treatments, if that was possible. But I'm a firm believer that things happen to us when they are supposed to and had things truly turned out otherwise, I wouldn't have the ones I have now and I can't imagine my life without them. I knew early on the one thing I would be is a Mom-never even considered being a wife, but having kids was always going to happen.

I have children - it is not nor has it ever been anything resembling "awesome."
I have no interest in writing about this at length.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here. It would be best if we didn't make assumptions about other people's experiences.

What I noted was the 'one-sidedness'as it were of those of us with kids who have responded at length-I'd actually like to hear from parents who wouldn't do it ever again or who regretted becoming parents, etc., but perhaps they feel they shouldn't respond for whatever reason.
Those of us who enjoy the journey tend to go on about it; I can understand the put-offedness about it.

If nothing else, they probably see the way most parents treat those who don't want children, and figure if they said anything they'd get the same (but possibly even worse) abuse. Plus, then they may feel like people see them as bad parents. I know one parent like this personally. I'm practically the only person who knows he doesn't like having kids (he has 2), because back when he ever mentioned it to anyone, he'd be demonized and called a bad parent. So, now he keeps it to himself.

As much as I can understand the validity of your viewpoint, and accept it as worth contemplating, I need to say something Analog:

There are a few instances where ....experience in a subject become a requirement for learned opinion to be used, and in my personal opinion this is one of them. While the descision to reproduce, and take on the many aspects of child rearing (hardcore family life) might seem a mere subject of debate.....for those contemplating the choice, it is not. There is no "Light" version of parenting, You either have been there....or not.
The negativity you project is likely an issue best dealt with elsewhere if only to avoid tarnishing an otherwise useful discussion to the OP.

That said, my experience has been one of fear, and painful realization. The children I have are very difficult to raise, and will be the death of me eventually. They are the best thing I have ever done in MY LIFE. Should anyone ever say parenting is easy....they might be somewhat confused, but there is nothing in this life I have found to be as rewarding, and no other veture I can say I will never regret.
The only advice I have is very simple........

Should you decide to have children, be prepared for life to become more difficult on many levels.....some you cannot imagine.

But it is...in my opinion...well worth the effort.

And an effort it must be. When my son was in first grade, a discussion with his teacher led me to this comment: "I'm very lucky". She admonished me, stating luck has nothing to do with the performance and behavior of my son (and his sister), that it was parenting only and for that, I should be congratulated and when done so, say 'thank you'. So, now I do.
We make mistakes and go to bed regretting something we did, but when it comes together, when things go right, every effort, every disparaging moment, they all congeal and we look at the growth of these creatures and realize maybe we're not the fuck-ups we sometimes think we are; that whatever has gone wrong in life, the successful growth of our offspring makes it almost inconsequential.
People regret having kids for a myriad of reasons, from hating the spouse they had them with to blaming their kids for their loss of freedoms. But it was their decision to do so, the kids didn't cause their negative outlooks. In those instances, I feel badly for the kids-nothing in the world can compare to the feeling that you are the cause for regret, despair and unloved simply for existing.

Sure, learned opinion. I never said anyone's opinions were wrong or that they weren't entitled to them. I said using emotion-based opinions as arguments was invalid, because it is. Whether or not personal experience has skewed your perspective on the matter is besides the point of whether or not it is the right choice for someone else to make. The "learned opinions" formed in this case are little more than shifts in perspective, or swift kicks in the gut that forcibly alter your reality.

All the experience and learned opinion in the world don't add up to a valid argument when the topic is whether or not someone should do something they've never wanted to do before. This is most especially true when the experience and knowledge is all emotion-based. There are actual, real, fact-based reasons to NOT have a child. There are no reasons to have a child that aren't based on either selfishness or emotion- and you should not be trying to convince someone of something based on YOUR emotional feelings about it.

As with any pro-con discussion, each side will see positives and negatives based on their own interests. I'm sorry that all you see from an opposing opinion is negativity.

having spent a few days with a 5 year old and a 21 month old, it has been interesting to watch the dynamics of the family.

we also spent a few hours with a 3 week old.

I am going to be glad to be returning home to the rambunctious kittens.

Cute, they really are, but I do not see myself able to make the commitment of 18+ years, where the ramifications of a mistake can be life or death, therapy, or even incarceration. As they say it is one day at a time, but ultimately this is a difference of a lifetime.

Why not?

I don't understand why you think emotional arguments are invalid in the current context.

I also don't understand how you think the choice to not have a child is based on anything other than selfishness or emotion.

I suggest you keep it simple and do what makes you happy. When I "felt" the time was right to have a child, I became pregnant. Although said child is not here yet, I can tell you that there is nothing like the experience that any other person who has not carried a child will ever understand. If you want to be a mother, do. The child that you and RB bring in to this world will be better off then many others out there.....

Well... it's been eons since I posted anything, but this sure got me out of my shell.
I can't tell you about what you should do, but I can give you some facts as I see them.

First off.. Having a kid is a supremely scary task for a guy. We see all the responsibility and the rewards seem to be scarce. As we put it in our investment/returns calculator, it sucks ass. That being said, we're usually wrong. I can tell you that a kid will aggravate the holy hell out of you all day, keep you up all night, have no respect for your possessions or schedule, and generally change the very flavor of everything you do. and it really doesn't matter! You'll give up almost anything for that nuzzle, and to feel the breath on the side of your neck.

Secondly, as a mom Ratbastid is automatically number 2- with a bullet! I miss my wife sometimes, but I'd rather have a great mom that a shitty mom that ignores my kids for me.

Thirdly- You have a helluva a lot less control over your kids than you think you will. I have three- and with each I thought that this would be the one that I was going to rear exactly like I wanted to. Well, parenting is a lot less planning and a lot more surviving! My kids are okay, but not how I was planning for them to turn out.

Logically- you can plan for the fiscal and temporal strain. The relationship and personal strain are different for everyone. I find myself daydreaming for some me time, but I'll be the one who will ask the kids if they want to run with me to do errands.

The big question is: What is RB saying about all this? What's his rationale for being childless?
Successive questions are: You do realize that even the best of children act as a strain on your relationship, right?
You do realize that while the financial burdens for one child tend to be overstated, a child with special needs (or multiple births) are generally understated in their costs in both time and money.


I don't know if that helps- but at least you got me posting. And if you guys decide to have a baby... prepare for your heart to dwell permanantly outside your body.;)

Love and Luck,
Marc

There have been good times & bad.

I certainly never expected to end up a single mom...every parent should have a plan for raising the children alone, we never know what life can bring. There's always a chance you will be left holding the bag all alone.
It's been a hard road, and truthfully, I wouldn't do it again if I knew then what I know now. But I was 18 & thought I was bulletproof.

I would leave the parenting to those who have more to offer than a mom who spent most of their childhood just trying to keep them in milk & shoes.

On the other hand, I have learned so much from my kids & they've kept me going through very very dark times. If not for them, I know I would not still be walking the earth.

I think one can do good by the world's children other than raising one.

Lurkette, I truly believe that our "urges" and plans for our lives change as we're exposed to different things that we're not used to. I applaud you for putting this out there. And for clarifying that you were asking for other people's thoughts and not planning on making a snap decision, but wanting to change the things/thoughts you're exposed to.

That being said, I always thought I wanted a full house. I've worked with kids since I was a 10-year-old babysitter. My friends have kids, I had 95 cousins in 2000 then I stopped counting. As I grew into my life and into different directions, I met people that I wanted to smack in the head for procreating. I watched, listened, and was reluctantly involved in parenting one of my female friend's daughters because she was an alcoholic with no parenting skills. I met my ex 2 years ago. I fell in love with his daughter immediately. She was brilliant, beautiful, loving... and three. I was with him during the most devastating of times where this innocent little girl became a weapon his ex-wife wielded on a daily basis. Long story short, "daddy" was replaced by his first name, she moved to the other side of the country, and they terminated his rights to her because he could not afford the $9k a month she wanted in "back-child-support". I had never met anyone who truly regretted having a child before I met him. She is the only child I would have participated in parenting. Ever. Our styles are complementary, there was a connection between the three of us, and he was an incredible father. Unfortunately, he does not believe that I no longer want children and it ended the relationship because of fear of possibilities. My reasons for wanting to remain child-free?

--I'm selfish. I like to pick up and go when I feel like it.
--I like to give them back when they are screaming.
--I work with children who are living with a life-threatening illness. What child of mine could ever live their life quasi-normally with a mother who works 50 hours a week and has seen what an immunization or cold can do in the extreme worst-case scenario? I'd be a basket-case. And so would the kid.
--I have fibromyalgia, which could be passed on. I'm a third-generation, first-born-female with it. We also have cardiac disease, glaucoma, diabetes, arthritis, severe allergies and asthma in my family. I choose not to take the chance.
--I will not ever be put in a situation where my potential child could be used as a weapon.
--I know I could not do it on my own. And I would never want someone to stay in a relationship with me because of a child. Nor would I be able to force a child to split their attentions between two households or give up custody of a kid.
--I don't make a lot of money. It's my chosen profession and sometimes I can't afford the canned catfood, so he just gets the dry stuff, because I hate ramen noodles.

The only reasons that I have not had a tubal yet are because I came to this conclusion about 14 months ago and want to make sure I still feel that way. And some health issues I'm dealing with. But again, this is my choice and I'm responding to your questions about why other people have come to their own conclusions about procreation. I wish you and Ratbastid time, healthy conversations, and the best of luck in making your choices.