lurkette: I'm not upset, never was, I'm just making conversation. Heated debate doesn't mean i'm losing my cool- far from it. :)

TiVo is great and has allowed us to at least feel like we're keeping somewhat in touch with the world that exists outside of diapers, pacifiers and sleep training. That said, the only thing that my kid has ever watched on TV is the goddamn Chicago White Sox, despite the fact that my wife and I had an agreement before we were married (approved by the priest that married us, no less) that any children would be babtised Catholic (for her) but raised Cubs fans (for me). I know that the Cubs are godawful this year, but there are worse things than Barney - like Ozzie.

/threadjack

It's a valid question. At the moment, I'm in therapy (and he's not a licensed therapist, more of a 'life coach') dealing with some nagging self-esteem issues that I can't seem to kick. I know I'm not ugly, and yet I relive my feelings of junior high insecurity from time to time. It's not the kind of thing that requires "therapy" - it's just the kind of negative mental feedback that I know is illogical and yet occurs on a very emotional and physical level where logic doesn't help. So I'm doing some work on uncovering the roots of it and "reprogramming" my scripts around my physical self-image.

More answer than you wanted, really, but you asked. I am on medication for depressio but more for maintenance than for active treatment of symptoms - I've been exercising regularly and doing the things I need to do to prepare to step down my dosage and get off the Paxil.

This is not a decision we're going to make in the next 2 months. More like 6 months to a year.

lurkette, my post is in your journal.

Ustwo, thanks a lot. I now have the fruit salad song in my head.

/me doesn't understand why anyone is in a discussion which should involve only two people...

I believe it has something to do with getting a point of view of someone "outside looking in".

Um...cause we asked them to be?

It's not like we're taking a poll and treating the results as binding. Now THAT would be interesting...

We just want a variety of perspectives to help inform our decision-making process. In the end it'll come down to the two of us discussing and choosing, but I'd rather get real-world perspective from people who have been there than go read a book or something.

Not too much of a variety though, I noticed. Those of us who have kids, no matter what age the kids are and no matter what age we became parents, are pretty much in agreement that it's awesome, if a very difficult job. Those who don't have kids don't get the connection, really and, having been there myself, I can relate. I still do in a way since kids I don't know but who make their presence known in a variety of ways, I don't like (seems every day at work at the sound of a whiner or crier, I'm mumbling to 'shut that damn kid up!')
I think that, if I had to do it over again, the only thing I would change is that I'd have been even MORE diligent in my fertility treatments, if that was possible. But I'm a firm believer that things happen to us when they are supposed to and had things truly turned out otherwise, I wouldn't have the ones I have now and I can't imagine my life without them. I knew early on the one thing I would be is a Mom-never even considered being a wife, but having kids was always going to happen.

I have children - it is not nor has it ever been anything resembling "awesome."
I have no interest in writing about this at length.

There are a lot of assumptions being made here. It would be best if we didn't make assumptions about other people's experiences.

What I noted was the 'one-sidedness'as it were of those of us with kids who have responded at length-I'd actually like to hear from parents who wouldn't do it ever again or who regretted becoming parents, etc., but perhaps they feel they shouldn't respond for whatever reason.
Those of us who enjoy the journey tend to go on about it; I can understand the put-offedness about it.

If nothing else, they probably see the way most parents treat those who don't want children, and figure if they said anything they'd get the same (but possibly even worse) abuse. Plus, then they may feel like people see them as bad parents. I know one parent like this personally. I'm practically the only person who knows he doesn't like having kids (he has 2), because back when he ever mentioned it to anyone, he'd be demonized and called a bad parent. So, now he keeps it to himself.

As much as I can understand the validity of your viewpoint, and accept it as worth contemplating, I need to say something Analog:

There are a few instances where ....experience in a subject become a requirement for learned opinion to be used, and in my personal opinion this is one of them. While the descision to reproduce, and take on the many aspects of child rearing (hardcore family life) might seem a mere subject of debate.....for those contemplating the choice, it is not. There is no "Light" version of parenting, You either have been there....or not.
The negativity you project is likely an issue best dealt with elsewhere if only to avoid tarnishing an otherwise useful discussion to the OP.

That said, my experience has been one of fear, and painful realization. The children I have are very difficult to raise, and will be the death of me eventually. They are the best thing I have ever done in MY LIFE. Should anyone ever say parenting is easy....they might be somewhat confused, but there is nothing in this life I have found to be as rewarding, and no other veture I can say I will never regret.
The only advice I have is very simple........

Should you decide to have children, be prepared for life to become more difficult on many levels.....some you cannot imagine.

But it is...in my opinion...well worth the effort.

And an effort it must be. When my son was in first grade, a discussion with his teacher led me to this comment: "I'm very lucky". She admonished me, stating luck has nothing to do with the performance and behavior of my son (and his sister), that it was parenting only and for that, I should be congratulated and when done so, say 'thank you'. So, now I do.
We make mistakes and go to bed regretting something we did, but when it comes together, when things go right, every effort, every disparaging moment, they all congeal and we look at the growth of these creatures and realize maybe we're not the fuck-ups we sometimes think we are; that whatever has gone wrong in life, the successful growth of our offspring makes it almost inconsequential.
People regret having kids for a myriad of reasons, from hating the spouse they had them with to blaming their kids for their loss of freedoms. But it was their decision to do so, the kids didn't cause their negative outlooks. In those instances, I feel badly for the kids-nothing in the world can compare to the feeling that you are the cause for regret, despair and unloved simply for existing.

Sure, learned opinion. I never said anyone's opinions were wrong or that they weren't entitled to them. I said using emotion-based opinions as arguments was invalid, because it is. Whether or not personal experience has skewed your perspective on the matter is besides the point of whether or not it is the right choice for someone else to make. The "learned opinions" formed in this case are little more than shifts in perspective, or swift kicks in the gut that forcibly alter your reality.

All the experience and learned opinion in the world don't add up to a valid argument when the topic is whether or not someone should do something they've never wanted to do before. This is most especially true when the experience and knowledge is all emotion-based. There are actual, real, fact-based reasons to NOT have a child. There are no reasons to have a child that aren't based on either selfishness or emotion- and you should not be trying to convince someone of something based on YOUR emotional feelings about it.

As with any pro-con discussion, each side will see positives and negatives based on their own interests. I'm sorry that all you see from an opposing opinion is negativity.

having spent a few days with a 5 year old and a 21 month old, it has been interesting to watch the dynamics of the family.

we also spent a few hours with a 3 week old.

I am going to be glad to be returning home to the rambunctious kittens.

Cute, they really are, but I do not see myself able to make the commitment of 18+ years, where the ramifications of a mistake can be life or death, therapy, or even incarceration. As they say it is one day at a time, but ultimately this is a difference of a lifetime.

Why not?

I don't understand why you think emotional arguments are invalid in the current context.

I also don't understand how you think the choice to not have a child is based on anything other than selfishness or emotion.

I suggest you keep it simple and do what makes you happy. When I "felt" the time was right to have a child, I became pregnant. Although said child is not here yet, I can tell you that there is nothing like the experience that any other person who has not carried a child will ever understand. If you want to be a mother, do. The child that you and RB bring in to this world will be better off then many others out there.....

Well... it's been eons since I posted anything, but this sure got me out of my shell.
I can't tell you about what you should do, but I can give you some facts as I see them.

First off.. Having a kid is a supremely scary task for a guy. We see all the responsibility and the rewards seem to be scarce. As we put it in our investment/returns calculator, it sucks ass. That being said, we're usually wrong. I can tell you that a kid will aggravate the holy hell out of you all day, keep you up all night, have no respect for your possessions or schedule, and generally change the very flavor of everything you do. and it really doesn't matter! You'll give up almost anything for that nuzzle, and to feel the breath on the side of your neck.

Secondly, as a mom Ratbastid is automatically number 2- with a bullet! I miss my wife sometimes, but I'd rather have a great mom that a shitty mom that ignores my kids for me.

Thirdly- You have a helluva a lot less control over your kids than you think you will. I have three- and with each I thought that this would be the one that I was going to rear exactly like I wanted to. Well, parenting is a lot less planning and a lot more surviving! My kids are okay, but not how I was planning for them to turn out.

Logically- you can plan for the fiscal and temporal strain. The relationship and personal strain are different for everyone. I find myself daydreaming for some me time, but I'll be the one who will ask the kids if they want to run with me to do errands.

The big question is: What is RB saying about all this? What's his rationale for being childless?
Successive questions are: You do realize that even the best of children act as a strain on your relationship, right?
You do realize that while the financial burdens for one child tend to be overstated, a child with special needs (or multiple births) are generally understated in their costs in both time and money.


I don't know if that helps- but at least you got me posting. And if you guys decide to have a baby... prepare for your heart to dwell permanantly outside your body.;)

Love and Luck,
Marc

There have been good times & bad.

I certainly never expected to end up a single mom...every parent should have a plan for raising the children alone, we never know what life can bring. There's always a chance you will be left holding the bag all alone.
It's been a hard road, and truthfully, I wouldn't do it again if I knew then what I know now. But I was 18 & thought I was bulletproof.

I would leave the parenting to those who have more to offer than a mom who spent most of their childhood just trying to keep them in milk & shoes.

On the other hand, I have learned so much from my kids & they've kept me going through very very dark times. If not for them, I know I would not still be walking the earth.

I think one can do good by the world's children other than raising one.

Lurkette, I truly believe that our "urges" and plans for our lives change as we're exposed to different things that we're not used to. I applaud you for putting this out there. And for clarifying that you were asking for other people's thoughts and not planning on making a snap decision, but wanting to change the things/thoughts you're exposed to.

That being said, I always thought I wanted a full house. I've worked with kids since I was a 10-year-old babysitter. My friends have kids, I had 95 cousins in 2000 then I stopped counting. As I grew into my life and into different directions, I met people that I wanted to smack in the head for procreating. I watched, listened, and was reluctantly involved in parenting one of my female friend's daughters because she was an alcoholic with no parenting skills. I met my ex 2 years ago. I fell in love with his daughter immediately. She was brilliant, beautiful, loving... and three. I was with him during the most devastating of times where this innocent little girl became a weapon his ex-wife wielded on a daily basis. Long story short, "daddy" was replaced by his first name, she moved to the other side of the country, and they terminated his rights to her because he could not afford the $9k a month she wanted in "back-child-support". I had never met anyone who truly regretted having a child before I met him. She is the only child I would have participated in parenting. Ever. Our styles are complementary, there was a connection between the three of us, and he was an incredible father. Unfortunately, he does not believe that I no longer want children and it ended the relationship because of fear of possibilities. My reasons for wanting to remain child-free?

--I'm selfish. I like to pick up and go when I feel like it.
--I like to give them back when they are screaming.
--I work with children who are living with a life-threatening illness. What child of mine could ever live their life quasi-normally with a mother who works 50 hours a week and has seen what an immunization or cold can do in the extreme worst-case scenario? I'd be a basket-case. And so would the kid.
--I have fibromyalgia, which could be passed on. I'm a third-generation, first-born-female with it. We also have cardiac disease, glaucoma, diabetes, arthritis, severe allergies and asthma in my family. I choose not to take the chance.
--I will not ever be put in a situation where my potential child could be used as a weapon.
--I know I could not do it on my own. And I would never want someone to stay in a relationship with me because of a child. Nor would I be able to force a child to split their attentions between two households or give up custody of a kid.
--I don't make a lot of money. It's my chosen profession and sometimes I can't afford the canned catfood, so he just gets the dry stuff, because I hate ramen noodles.

The only reasons that I have not had a tubal yet are because I came to this conclusion about 14 months ago and want to make sure I still feel that way. And some health issues I'm dealing with. But again, this is my choice and I'm responding to your questions about why other people have come to their own conclusions about procreation. I wish you and Ratbastid time, healthy conversations, and the best of luck in making your choices.

Lurkette, I'm going to have to second this.... wouldn't that be nice?

I'm going through the exact same thing that you are, except that my husband is 100% not on board with having any children or adopting... so it is a bigger choice for my own personal circumstances if I feel this is something that's really important to me.

I'm going to have to say that I didn't want children for some years, or rather, I was unsure, but in the past two-three years, It's becoming clear to me it's something I am truly interested in as a life choice ... it's emotion based and an urge I have, and my husband does not understand my urge since he does not have any similar urges.

I was a nanny for some time and I think that's where my thinking changed.... tucking a child in for a nap, helping them learn to read, giving them a hug when they fall down, doing your best to cheer them up when they are grumpy and had a bad day at kindergarden.... it's work and it's not always easy, but i found the experience very rewarding....

I would like to thank you and everyone who has shared their thoughts so candidly....


sweetpea

I have read through this entire thread with as much care as I can. If I missed something or repeat something that someone else has said just add it to the statistics.

Preface the words "In my opinion" in front of every sentence please:

Having children is one of those things that if you have to ask other people about then you probably shouldn't. If you have to make a chart of "pros and cons" then you probably shouldn't be having children. If you have to consult a Magic 8 ball then you probably shouldn't have kids.

Why?

Your mindset has not changed if you are still having these kinds of doubts. You still don't really want children. You're just dealing with the biological urge that you spoke about. That's all.

All of the people you meet who say that having a child is the sweetest experience in the world are actually correct. However, that's certainly not a reason to have kids. Kids are not toys or dolls that you tuck in at night and sigh and whisper to your SO that life is beautiful. Sure, that can happen sometimes; but counter that with all of the not so beautiful things about kids (puke, poop, tantrums, midnight ER visits, etc.).

A child will not make you suddenly feel complete if you don't already have that. At most it will distract you from certain feelings for a while; but eventually you become "yourself" again.

Two things stuck out at me most that I'd like to address here:

As far as kids being "dream-killers" (can't remember who said that), in MY EXPERIENCE the exact opposite is true. I got involved in music with renewed energy after my daughter was born. I didn't have much drive before. I just listed from band to band and project to project like nothing really mattered. Now I have some real concrete goals that I am on the road to achieving.

On the subject of daycare; the studies are not conclusive. Certain daycares are nothing more than holding centers for children of parents who are also otherwise neglected. We chose a daycare that met some very specific needs that we wanted for our child. I wanted her to learn a second language as early as possible. I don't speak a second language; at least not well enough to teach it. We were lucky enough to have a foreign language speaking daycare in the city. In addition to learning the second language, neither my wife nor I felt that we could teach our daughter anything beyond simple ABC's and numbers effectively (that's our own shortcoming, I agree). But, I am a firm believer in the Maria Montessori principle … kids seem to learn best from other kids.

Having children was something I never really thought about. It's not something that you can ever be "ready" for. Some people do and some people don't want to have kids. Sometimes you don't have a choice and that goes both ways.

Good luck with any decision you make.

Doug

I have to agree with vanblah. Maybe I'll change that opinion later, but for now it resonates with me. I think that if you really wanted to have children, you wouldn't need to ask the TFP. But that's just me, and I'm not in your shoes, lurkette.

I also like what vanblah said about daycares. :) Yay for Maria Montessori! I was a Montessori kid for a few years and I LOVED it. I still believe it affected my learning style for the rest of my life (a good thing). Daycare, or anything about having kids, is all about what you want to do... in the end, it comes down to what you want, and what kind of life you want to make for your family (with a little bit of randomness thrown in, of course). It comes down to whether or not you can financially and emotionally (and relationally) afford the risk of having children, I guess. It's a gamble... one that I'm certainly unqualified to make, right now. But I wish you the best in this decision, and I am learning a lot from everyone's posts.

Update -

Still mulling.

Genetics are no longer an issue - we have discussed things and decided that if we did decide to have a kid, we would be okay with having a kid with HED. My genes are actually pretty kick-ass, and I'm done resenting them. The challenges of caring for a kid who can't regulate his temperature would be significant, but not insurmountable.

Still on the fence.

Thanks for all the comments!

I sit in the category of having had kids (second one only a few weeks ago), but was quite ambivalent about us having them at all. My wife was very keen, and I was OK if it happened by also fine if it didn't.

I agree with all who have said RB needs to be on board fully - otherwise this could be a relationship killer.

There are lots of tests offered to parents to check "in utero" whether a child has a high probability of down syndrome and other abnormalities, but having fallen pregnant both my wife and I were not interested in these - we had decided to play the cards that were dealt and wouldn't have considered aborting based on the possibility of birth defects.

I also want to defend Analog - at the very least he was willing to say what he believed. I think there are pros and cons to be looked at - just some of the items in the list are less tangible than others. Still, it comes down to you guys feeling comfortable with your decision.

RE the TV/DVD - I'm with Ustwo on this - occassional doses of Bob The Builder and the Wiggles (my 2yo favourites) is a sanity saver. My wife and I are in charge of the remote, though, otherwise it would be on all day ;)

A couple of years ago, I had no idea. I wasn't willing to rule it out, but it seemed pretty unlikely, and I had no real urges to do the kid thing. These days, I see it as a pretty good possibility, but not now, and I'd probably be okay if not ever. However... I am starting to feel like that's a part of life I want to experience. Later.

Just listen to yourself, and be honest with yourself. Do some more daydreaming, see what parts you tend to focus on... what parts are the most interesting to you? If you just want to mentor a kid, you can do the Big Brothers Big Sisters program (which I highly recommend). If you want to nurture one, well, then maybe kids are a good idea.

I know you're talking to RB (you're no dummy) about this... and I have to say, talking to Q lately has been rather illuminating. And helpful in keeping our opinions on kids aligned. How would we want to raise them? Discipline? How would we handle childcare with us working? When would we want to do this? Q was a lot more nervous about the idea a couple years ago. With time, age, and more discussions, we've come to a general agreement about what we'd be okay with, and when.

And I'm glad you've taken genes out of the equation - everyone has something that sucks (like my family's huge possibility for colon cancer). Gotta roll with those punches. :*

I just read this and was thinking of this thread....

Now I can't verifiy the numbers of course, but EVERY childless couple I know who is getting beyond the normal childbearing years is a liberal couple. I enjoyed the part I highlighted in red as I've heard it before, its grossly untrue being most populations where one can find liberals (US/Europe) are falling, and I think its not due to being selfless as in 'I won't have a child for the good of the planet' but due to selfishness 'I won't have a child due to it will cut into my lifestyle'. The planet is a justification, a nobel cause but lets get real here. Now before someone gets bee's in their bonnets, having children is selfish too, you have them because you want to have them. It just reflects the diffrent priorities of the conservative vrs liberal mind set.

My son, age 21, is a pleasure to be around now. Although he still hits me up for money (he's in college, DUH!), I enjoy his company on an adult level now. Face it, there are far too few people in your life that really give a damn about you. I'm glad he's one of the ones who do.

It's also a certainty that I'll be doing all of the dumbass stuff you mentioned above, and ENJOYING it, when I have grandchildren.

Update:

I'm still utterly on the fence about this. I have been having more (very emotional) dreams about reproducing, and it still has its appeal.

However, I saw a kid at the library yesterday, about 8-9 years old. He was black, and he clearly had the same disorder my brother did (HED). There's just a look about HED kids, you can just tell. He was standing in a corner by himself, just kind of watching other kids, and he looked so frail and tiny. It just broke my heart, partly because of my brother, but partly because it just sucks to be a kid and be different and not fit in. And I just can't imagine if that was my kid - how the fuck would I be able to live knowing that he was miserable all the time? I just don't think I could manage that level of constant sorrow and pain for someone I love so much. There's something to be said for helping someone overcome that, but I don't know that I want to go through that, or put someone else through that.

Sigh. Soon I'll be old and it'll be a moot point.

Lurkette,

In my experience happiness is primarily about three things....Being loved, having someone to love, and realized potential as everyone's potential is different.

If you're so inclined search this sub-forum for a little insight into my family's trials and tribulations. Our little one still doesn't eat, and has several other congenital physical and mental aliments, but she's doing just fine in the happiness department because she is realizing her potential, loves her family and the extended members of her support team, and gosh darn it, is just loved to death by all of us.

I think your fears about happiness and the concerns for "issues" are common the world over. You're not alone and trust me, things get put into a sort of perspective in the grand scheme that only a parent can comprehend. Essentially it just doesn't matter.

I've learned over the last few years that the nature vs. nurture debate is effectively settled! Nurture is by far the most important determining factor.

Go for it! Or not, only you can decide....either way you should practice alot.

I think you've got the nurture in you, regardless of what nature brings into this world.

-bear

^^^ YES. That's it.
That's the right answer.
Do, or do not... but whatever you decide, love your people. :*

Well...while I understand your hesitancy...I can only say that any child, that calls you and ratbastid; Mommy and Daddy, is one lucky child indeed. I mean that sincerely.

I have dreams about having children too. In all my dreams, I neglect the kid to the point of death. And then I'm upset because I'm in trouble, and will probably lose my job.

I don't put much stock in dreams, but I think I will remain childfree, heh.

Good luck with your decision, you guys.

I'd just like to ask where kids are (still) raised in orphanages in the states. I was adopted at age 5 and lived with my biological mother and in foster homes before then. Adoption can be a bit of a pandora's box for the parents - but I don't think it's quite what you infer here. I suspect it saved my life - either literally or metaphorically.

Random tid-bit of information from my sociology class on family. A lot of countries have negative population growth. The only reason why the U.S. doesn't is because of immigration.

The work lurkette was referring to was about orphanages in Romania. Really sad stuff.

Ah hah. Okay, then that makes a little more sense. I guess that leaves me curious about the blanket assumptions about all adoptions then. :paranoid:

Domestic adoption is too scary because of the legal ramifications...I don't want some judge deciding 3 years down the road that it's better off for a kid to be with its biological parents. It's great that you can have the child basically from birth, and in some cases can even be involved with the mother before birth, but it's still too shaky for my tastes.

International adoption is frightening because you don't really know the conditions in which the child is raised before you adopt them. If it's a good orphanage with consistent, low-ratio caregiving, or if the child was raised in a family setting for most of its life before you adopt, fine. But I've known too many people who've adopted internationally only to be surprised down the road by problems that have cropped up that, had they known about the precursors, could have been treated or intervened with. But since the precursors (early sensory/language deprivation, attachment issues, parental substance abuse, etc.) happened before the adoption and weren't documented, there was no real way for them to do anything about it until it was too late.

Either way, I hope your decision leaves you deliriously happy, whether it's child-free or child-enhanced. :)

Given that we have 5 friends about to give birth between now and September (5! did they put something in the water in NC? Was there a blackout I missed? Did I accidentally spike the Christmas punch with Clomid?) I'm about to get a bunch of second-hand experience watching how my friends' lives change as a result of having kids. I hope that'll provide some clarity.

I babysat stellaluna's nephew with her a few weeks ago, and paying attention to someone else constantly is a real PITA. Particularly when the consequences of not paying attention are that the kid could die. (I'd probably be one of those lax parents by default...I'd figure "how much trouble could the kid get into while I fix myself a sandwich?" and then find them choking on a sock or something.) Is it horribly naive to think that you can just let them hang out and get into mischief (how much is it really going to hurt them if they chew on the dog's toys?) and not have them die or have social services take them away? Do you HAVE to watch them like hawks 24/7? Is it just that parents are so worried about the unthinkable consequences of unlikely mishaps that they hover constantly?

Is it possible to be a sorta slacker parent ("sure, kid, crawl around the house for a bit while I fold the clothes...I've picked everything up that you could eat, the cabinets are all locked, knock yerself out!") and still have a very good chance that the kid will survive to adulthood, or at least to school age, is what I'm asking. Or are you sentenced to stare at this fascinating bundle of "let me stick my finger in that and see what happens" until they're old enough to know better?

Lurkette, my wife and I have a conversation very similar to your concerns about once a week. Basically it starts out with something along the lines of "remember when we could just put Max down somewhere and he'd be there when we got back?"

Infants are much different than toddlers who are much different than "kids" (for lack of a better term). For the first 8 months or so, we could put Max on a blanket in front of the window and go make ourselves a sandwich or whatever. When he was 6 weeks old, my wife would put him in a bouncy chair facing away from the TV so she could watch the NCAA basketball tournament.

First he learned to crawl, then pull himself up and now he's running (we do very little walking in our house). My point is that the changes are gradual. Honestly, we were never worried about mobility so much as sleep, but even that's gotten much better than before. You also learn to cope however you need to. If my wife (since she's the one who stays home with him) needs to make herself a sandwich (or go to the bathroom), she'll usually just waits until he occupied with something for 5 minutes or just gives him something to play with so that she stays in his line of site.

All kids are going to do stupid, dangerous things. When I was 3, my passion was riding my Big Wheel down the driveway, which was about 150m long and a steep hill and into an intersection. Coincidentally, one of my friends posted a blog entry about something he used to do as well today:

http://jackalope_ranch.blogspot.com/

I guess my underlying point here in sharing these stories is that if this is the kind of stuff you're worried about, I think you're overthinking it. While it's obviously one of the biggest decisions you'll ever make and will change your life, the small stuff isn't really important. What's important is whether or not you have the love to spare to raise a child.