macmanmike6100

This website, <a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project">Cooperative Research</a>, is the most comprehensive location for publicly available information pointing to alternative motivations for 9/11. Money, of course, seems to be (according to the facts, reported by dozens of respected papers and collated on this site) the key.

An interesting read, at least.

Jinn

Tilted Paranoia, maybe?

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Hardknock

No, because this isn't paranoia. Our own government is behind 9/11. They trained the terrorists. They gave them a reason to attack us. They instilled the hate that they have for us. So while the government indirectly caused 9/11, nevertheless, they still had a hand n it.

Jinn

par·a·noi·a Pronunciation Key (pr-noi)
n.

1. A psychotic disorder characterized by delusions of persecution with or without grandeur, often strenuously defended with apparent logic and reason.
2. Extreme, irrational distrust of others.


I meant only to say that this is hardly finance, more fitting for a section of TFP such as "Tilted Paranoia." My apologies.

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Lebell

Moved to "Tilted Paranoia".

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Willravel

Extreme? Maybe. Irrational? That's a matter of opinion, isn't it? Many of the things found on that site are based entirely on good research.

Is there any way we can vote on things that are in danger of being immediatally moved to paranoia?

macmanmike6100

I agree (and thank you, will): it's ridiculously extreme...but not so ridiculous that the views on the website weren't supported by dozens of news organizations. To be fair to myself, I'm a very rational engineer and wouldn't post something like this if I really thought it *was* simply paranoid.

Obviously, I don't think that this belongs in Paranoia, either, but I don't think that a voting process will be implemented any time soon.

Cynthetiq

i tried to look at said site... but it loads way too slow for my interests...

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samcol

I love how these things just get swept over to Paranoia. How is our distrust of the governement extreme or irrational? Look how many times we've caught them lieing (WMDs anyone). This is a great site that is very well documented with news reports and offical government documents.

The offical report is undefendable so instead of rationally discussing the topic, it's just called conspiracy. I think this is best summed up by Host's sig:

"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win." - Ghandi
-- Mahatma Gandhi

Willravel

Paranoia 6 months ago was saying there were no WMDs in Iraq. A year ago it was no al-Qaeda/Sadam links. Now those are right in the thick of Politics. I see this as being just as rational and relevent as those. Perhapse we should let a thread be explored first (i.e. several well thought out posts addressing the content, not simply saying it belongs in Paranoia without any explaination) before carting it off to Paranoia. Posts moved to Paranoia obviously lose most credibility.

Astrocloud

I don't know could someone post some of the money links to 911 -rather than merely saying to go to another website...

Jinn

Without placing any blind faith in the government, I find it hard to believe that 9-11 was a mass conspiracy by the government to defraud Americans.

I asked that it be moved because I believe you'd agree that this is more:

Tilted Paranoia
"Conspiracies, ghost stories, oddities." than it is

Tilted Finance
"How about a Dollars Making Sense pun? Anyone? Anyone?"

Especially considering http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=67071 is in Tilted Paranoia.

[EDIT]: Original was a bit harsh.

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Willravel

The "Depleted Uranium" thread never left Paranoia. The "No WMDs in Iraq" thread stayed. The "No al-Qaeda/Sadam link" thread stuck around. Check out post 230 in "The Mystery of the Disapearing 757" thread . That post might actually carry some weight as a thread in politics. Don't discount something because it doesn't seem likely on the surface. A conspiracy is simply an agreement to perform together an illegal, wrongful, or subversive act. It semantically has nothing to do with paranoia. Yes, this is about a possible (probable) conspiracy. So what? Does that make us all basement dwelling, country hating, paranoid schizophrenics? Absolutely not. "Paranoia" and "conspiracy theories" are not fundamentally linked in reality. There are conspiracy theories that are born of paranoia, and there are conspiracy theories born of investigation and curiosity. This is the latter.

Just becuase this is a conspiracy theory does not mean it stems from paranoia.

pan6467

Perhaps a Tilted Conspiracy subforum then. Personally, I think many equate (right or wrong) conspiracy and paranoia as the same.

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Willravel

That might be a good idea. Things tend to be taken lightly when they are in Paranoia (espically if they are moved here). The problem that I see is that it wouldn't enjoy the use of the other subforums, so it's not likely to be made. I'd like to see them tested in Politics before being shifted to Paranoia. Some conspiracy theories actually do belong here. When you start getting into how the Rothschilds are satan worshipers and are preparing for the end of days, then you are bounding through the medows of paranoia. This isn't anwhere near that.

samcol

Exactly what point does something become Paranoia anyway? Saying Martians used UFOs to bomb the WTC sounds like Paranoia to me since there is little or no evidence supporting this. However if I were to quote documents in the national security archives that talk about hijacking our own aircraft to blame in on our enemy and correlate that to 9/11, I think that's resonable discussion.

What would it take to get a discussion about 9/11 in the Politics forum that doesn't assume the official governments view of 9/11?

Jinn

Just for reference this was in Titled FINANCE, not Politics.

And I apologize for the digression, but someone brought up a good question:

And quite a question indeed.. where does rational thought end and paranoia begin? I think its precedent.

Since all rational thought is based on induction (not deduction) if we see something often enough it becomes more and more likely it if is possible.

I drop a ball once, and it falls.
I drop a ball twice, and it falls.
I drop a ball thrice and it falls.

Logic at the first step might tell us that it is paranoia to believe that it will fall again. Logic at the third step becomes less and less paranoid and more and more rational.

There's a reason there's another post about "What happened on 911" in Tilted Paranoia. Everyone has their grievances with the government, but what precedent has been set that I should believe the government was massively coordinating a strike on the WTC? It could ALL be true for all I know, but I've not lost that much faith in my government yet.

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Lebell

In all honesty, comparing this thread to WMD's is kind of silly, IMO.

At least with that, there were fairly credible people on both sides of the aisle arguing.

With 9/11, that is not the case.

When I see this being seriously debated in the mainstream, then I'll gladly move it back to "Politics".

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blahblah454

I feel that you people look to negatively at the "Paranoia Board". I look at it as a great place for political discussions that are not mainstream. I understand that this particular board doesnt get alot of traffic but most people don't want to face some of lifes harsh realities... so off to paranoia they go. It would be nice if the average TFPer or even your average citizen would pop by for some of these discussions to help them understand that not all is as it seems, but I'm not sure how this is going to happen since most people turn away as soon as 9/11 is mentioned.

Elphaba

I'm new to this forum, but it would seem that there has been an invitation to restart this thread in Politics if credible sources can be cited?

Lebell

I think I specifically said that it would need to be a mainstream discussion.

I grant that this is more or less subjective (what isn't in politics), but just polling all the mods I don't think any of them, left or right or nothing would think this is a mainstream issue.

So one or two articles in a mainstream paper probably wouldn't qualify for me, but if it was an expose on 60 minutes that was then investigated by the NY Times and then several senators started saying the same thing...well, that's the sort of thing that would make me pause about placing it here instead of in "Politics".

Hope that helps you understand my mental process on this even if you don't agree with it.

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