Questioning the Pentagon strike - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

archer2371 · 09-09-2004, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

All the evidence you'll ever need....

a shot of 395 at 8:38 am on any given Tuesday. How crafty an entity like the government of the United States is may be open for debate, but clever enough to fool every eye in rush hour traffic with a clear shot of the pentagon on that stretch of 395: "Ain't hap'nin bossman"

That pretty much sums it up for me. Plus, I have a friend that works in a building right across from the Pentagon. He was looking right at the plane plough into the home of the DoD. He would not talk for days, and he still will not even discuss the subject of 9/11.

seretogis · 09-09-2004, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Please move this to the parinoia forum. Its silly at best.

Agreed. This belongs more in Paranoia than in Politics.

pedro padilla · 09-09-2004, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phyzix525

It hits the building first, not hittin gthe grass, some say it hits the building between the first and second layers.

Its not the pointly nose but an engine that flew through those walls.

Those videos may have nothing on them.

Did we ever get a good video of it actually hitting? How long will the feul last? a few minutes untill the fire dies down from the original ball of flames? Also the designs of these two buildings are dramatically different. The area that was hit in the pentagon had recently been renforced.

They can turn off the transponders, which is what happend to the other planes that were hijacked.

Yeah it was great luck and the 9/11 commision said that the plane was originally looking to hit the white house but it is small and hard to see and they were not able to find it and circled around to hit something they could see very well.

sort of, there was some debris, but if you look at crash sites similar to this you see the same pattern, most debris would be caught in the building and then disinigrated from the heat. proof of that is in the fact that the water sprinklers in that area of the building also disintigrated.

I don't think there is enough proof to say that something else hit the pentagon. Where did the plane go? it was really hijacked people did die, so where is it? If it were shot down there would be a half mile streach of debris somewhere. I think the most important would be why?

if these videos have nothing on em then why the hell are they classified? why not release em to the public? why do you say there was nothing on em? I saw that on fox tv as well but i didn´t buy it.

a 757 hit the pentagon at 2 feet above the ground and did not even scorch the grass 2 feet in front of impact point?

they couldn´t find the white house so they´re circling around DfuckinC looking for a target? even if that could possibly be true then you still gotta ask what the hell was goin on.

look at the fotos. you can actually see intact desktop monitors 12 inches away the sheared off walls. the heat melted absolutely every trace of this football field sized plane but the computer cables 1 FOOT AWAY are still usable? check out some plane accident documentation. there´s more than a few that smacked some buildings. none of em melted and left no evidence. on the contrary, hundreds of people spend weeks pickin up the pieces. every time.

most important question, why? simply because they could. because they got unlimited carte blanche to do whatever they wanted. because with the help of an incredibly compromised media you are supposed to believe whatever they feed you. because there really are not enough average americans looking for and finding opposing viewpoints. of all your fellow workers or neighbors on your block, how many do you think are even aware of these contradictory facts? yeah facts. sorry but i don´t think for a
second that these guys are worried about you and me. it´s just mind blowing that they´re pulling it off. just cuz i´m paranoid doesn´t mean they´re not out to get me.

seretogis · 09-09-2004, 04:34 PM

host: I noticed you do this in another thread too, but using bold like that is really irritating. If you want to differentiate between what you are saying (or with bold, shouting) and what you are quoting, please use the [ quote ] [ /quote ] tags instead of bolding large stretches of text.

Rekna · 09-09-2004, 05:40 PM

I'm sorry but planes don't just have switches that make them disappear from radar. We may not know exact plane that is making a blip but there is still a blip. Or did the plane fly at ground level the whole way?

Lebell · 09-09-2004, 09:05 PM

I agree this has been beaten to death here.

Moved to Paranoia.

phyzix525 · 09-10-2004, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I'm sorry but planes don't just have switches that make them disappear from radar. We may not know exact plane that is making a blip but there is still a blip. Or did the plane fly at ground level the whole way?

Yeah I am not sure about that, but when I watched the 9/11 report on the history channle the other day they said that the reason the FAA and NORAD had a hard time finding the plane because the transsponder was turned off by the terroritst. Apparently thats how FAA tracks commercial airliners. When it went offline they said they had no idea where it actually was. According to them they looked to hit the whitehouse but was too small a target to see from low flying and the speed at which they were going so they circled around and hit the pentagon. Thats what they reported so I don't know if its for me to argue against it.

Also they said that there was a reporter on the plane that called on the airphone and was saying about how low they were flying, but not exactly how low.

There are enough eye witness to prove that this happened and not a sinlge bit of credible evidence to say it did not except for everyone preconcieved ideas of what the plane wreckage should look like.

ShaniFaye · 09-10-2004, 06:51 AM

This are two interesting sites that one of my friends sent me this morning
this one seems a little more "technical"
http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3

questions about supposed phone call from flight 77
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevese...es911/lies.htm

Moobie · 09-10-2004, 09:11 PM

Wow. Just wow. Here's a simulation of the 757 impacting the Pentagon. A warning, this might be a little disturbing for some. I found it unnerving.
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/s...e1/10sep02.gif

It's from this page:
http://www.cs.purdue.edu/homes/cmh/simulation/phase1/

Which is a link off the resource page from the link ShaniFaye posted. (the technical one) here:
http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3

I'd never thought of it that way since I don't know much about how the Pentagon is constructed. Spoiler: But if you watch that animation, it shows the 757 being sliced into strips. I never thought of that. But the Pentagon is made tough. Most of the support structures remain intact.

Quote:

the bulk of the impact damage is due to the body of fuel in the wing and center tanks. Most of the aircraft structure is light-weight low-mass, and relatively low strength, with the exception of the wheel undercarriage.

Quote:

the number of columns destroyed in the facade of the building does not have to correspond to the wing span. The tips of the wings, having less mass, are cut by the columns rather than the wing cutting the columns.

In the simulation there is little to no wreckage that exists the building. Which is interesting.

I put that part up there in spoiler tags because I didn't want to disturb anyone.

VitaminH · 09-12-2004, 07:38 PM

The mere fact that this was on ebaums is enough evidance to disprove it if you ask me...

fhqwhgads · 09-14-2004, 01:14 AM

I've been lurking this thread for a couple of days, and I suddenly feel the need to contribute. I'll do my best to try to avoid being patronizing.

I just want to make sure that I have the theory correct. From what I understand, here's what you guys are saying:

Something obviously damaged the Pentagon, we can all agree on that. The damage doesn't appear to be what someone would assume a large passenger jet crashing into a reinforced structure would look like. Why any of us would claim to know what a passenger jet crashing into a reinforced structure SHOULD look like, I'm not sure. However, since the damage doesn't meet our expectation, we look for an alternative solution as to what happened. Here's what we have come up with:

The government shot down a hijacked passenger jet and killed hundreds of people. Now, instead of blaming the crash on the hijackers (easy scapegoats in my mind) they decide that they need to come up with a cover story about what happened to this jet and the people aboard. Someone comes up with the idea to crash something into the Pentagon to explain the missing plane. So.... the government decides to fly something that is NOT a passenger jet into the Pentagon....and then brainwash people that witnessed the event into believing that they saw a passenger jet and NOT the actual object the government decided to use.

And because I choose not to believe this string of events, I am being "close minded"?

scout · 09-14-2004, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhqwhgads

The government shot down a hijacked passenger jet and killed hundreds of people. Now, instead of blaming the crash on the hijackers (easy scapegoats in my mind) they decide that they need to come up with a cover story about what happened to this jet and the people aboard. Someone comes up with the idea to crash something into the Pentagon to explain the missing plane. So.... the government decides to fly something that is NOT a passenger jet into the Pentagon....and then brainwash people that witnessed the event into believing that they saw a passenger jet and NOT the actual object the government decided to use.

And because I choose not to believe this string of events, I am being "close minded"?

You got it, all because Bush W wanted to attack Afghanistan and spend 60 - 80 billion before he attacked Iraq to finish what his father failed to finish and spend another 100 billion or so.

It's all been one big giant ruse just to make Dick Cheney and Haliburton stockholders wealthy.

hulk · 09-14-2004, 04:59 AM

Just thinking, cruise missiles have wings, right? Maybe they sent one of those =)

fhqwhgads · 09-14-2004, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by scout

You got it, all because Bush W wanted to attack Afghanistan and spend 60 - 80 billion before he attacked Iraq to finish what his father failed to finish and spend another 100 billion or so.

It's all been one big giant ruse just to make Dick Cheney and Haliburton stockholders wealthy.

Ok, I'm not sure if you believe what you just wrote or if you're being sarcastic.

tritium · 09-14-2004, 08:37 AM

I'd think that the trackmarks of other planes hitting the ground were a result of the pilots attempt to set the plane down as gently as possible. Remember, the September 11th hijackers weren't interested in setting anything down gently -- they wanted maximum destruction and death. That they hit the ground at all was a function of "pilot" error. So, if you're questioning the existence or absence of a long drag mark on the ground in Arlington, Virginia, remember that they hijackers weren't aiming for the dirt, but the Pentagon building itself.

Speaking to the whole, "Where is the plane" conspiracy:
Remember that the resulting jet fuel fire was actually the catalyst to the WTC collapse. The intense fire caused by the boiling jetfuel actually melted the building's support steel and aluminum and dropped the buildings to the ground. The same fire would have *easily* caused the plastic and aluminum honey-comb aircraft construction to vaporize. Try tossing an aluminum can in a campfire -- it WILL melt and eventually burn away entirely. So, if a campfire is hot enough to vaporize aluminum, wouldn't a furnace of jet fuel be more capable and efficient?

Campfires will actually melt glass bottles too. Any fired glass from the plane would have been indistinguishable from other glass found around the WTC rubble.

hulk · 09-15-2004, 01:11 AM

What about the turbines that are built to withstand the heat coming out of the back of the jet? I think they'd fare a bit better than most of it. It's still pushing it a bit to say that an entire aircraft and it's contents were completely obliterated with almost no trace left behind.

scout · 09-15-2004, 02:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fhqwhgads

Ok, I'm not sure if you believe what you just wrote or if you're being sarcastic.

Sarcasm. This is election year, you can bet your sweet cheeks that if there was a hint of impropriety somebody somewhere would come out and tell it all to Dan Rather or another one of the liberal news organizations. It would be impossible for the White House to cover up something this huge.

Cynthetiq · 09-15-2004, 06:53 AM

I just found this picture...from this website. Interesting cad animations...

http://www.mikejwilson.com/911/

jimmyjambam · 09-19-2004, 02:30 AM

A friend of mine saw a big freaking plane smash into the pentagon..
its pretty hard to convince me that he imagined it..

Willravel · 09-19-2004, 10:54 AM

Several of my uncles friends died in the explosion. A lot of people saw a lot of things. Your friend had to be pretty close to see the crash (there are only a few spots where you can see the area from that aren't government property). The areas are either on the highway, on a side street, or in one of the taller buildings. If he were in ANY of these spots, all he would have seen was a split second flash of something go by (based on the speed and trajectory given to the press by the government's official press release). He saw something. I wouldn't argue with that. He wasn't imagining things. But did he see a Boeing 757-200 smash into the building? It's pretty hard to imagine that someone suddenly looking at something moving as fast as that plane or whatever it was can give a description so speccific a to give the exact size of the plane.

Manuel Hong · 09-19-2004, 08:33 PM

I just read this thread for the first time and the link originally posted is no longer playing the video. I have searched around and can't seem to find it anywhere....hmmm :hmmm:

Does anyone know where this can be found currently? Anyone? Bueller?

Hard8s · 09-19-2004, 10:12 PM

Try this one.
http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...e/pentagon.php

Manuel Hong · 09-21-2004, 06:31 PM

uh. wow.

hold me.

host · 09-22-2004, 01:05 AM

<td ><hr size=1 >Posted: 2004-09-09 01:28<div class=mboardtxt>

 BECAUSE IT ONLY FEELS LIKE PARANOIA.
 SUNDAY, AUGUST 15, 2004
 The Coincidence Theorist's Guide to 9/11
 By Jeff Wells
 That governments (Re: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1019246,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1019246,00.html</a> ) have permitted terrorist acts (Re: <a href="http://www.redvoltaire.net/article694.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.redvoltaire.net/article694.html</a> ) against their own people (Re: <a href="http://avantgo.thetimes.co.uk/services/avantgo/article/0,,1150429,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://avantgo.thetimes.co.uk/services/avantgo/article/0,,1150429,00.html</a> ) , and have even themselves been perpetrators (Re: <a href="http://english.terror99.ru/explosions/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://english.terror99.ru/explosions/</a> ) in order to find strategic advantage is quite likely true, but this is the United States we're talking about.
 
 That intelligence agencies, financiers, terrorists and narco-criminals have a long history together is well established, but the Nugan Hand Bank (Re: <a href="http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/investigative/case1.asp?MSID=dd49e5d28736448fa7592de0beee7a8a" target="_blank" target="_new">http://sunday.ninemsn.com.au/sunday/investigative/case1.asp?MSID=dd49e5d28736448fa7592de0beee7a8a</a> ), BCCI (Re: <a href="http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/11intel.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.fas.org/irp/congress/1992_rpt/bcci/11intel.htm</a> ), Banco Ambrosiano (Re: <a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/operation_gladio.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/operation_gladio.htm</a> ) , the P2 Lodge (Re: <a href="http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Propaganda_Due" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Propaganda_Due</a> ), the CIA/Mafia (Re: <a href="http://www.jfklancer.com/cuba/castroplots.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.jfklancer.com/cuba/castroplots.html</a> ) anti-Castro/Kennedy alliance, Iran/Contra (Re: <a href="http://www.madcowprod.com/mc5012004.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.madcowprod.com/mc5012004.html</a> ) and the rest were a long time ago, so there’s no need to rehash all that (Re: <a href="http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_money_fountain.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.deepblacklies.co.uk/the_money_fountain.htm</a> ). That was then, this is now! (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP311A.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/KUP311A.html</a> )

 
 That Jonathan Bush’s Riggs Bank (Re:
 http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.pht...Riggs_Bank_N.A. ) has been found guilty of laundering terrorist funds and fined a US-record $25 million must embarrass his nephew George, but it's still no justification for leaping to paranoid conclusions.
 
 That George Bush's brother Marvin sat on the board of the Kuwaiti-owned company which provided electronic security (Re: <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0204-06.htm</a> ) to the World Trade Centre, Dulles Airport and United Airlines means nothing more than you must admit those Bush boys have done alright for themselves.
 
 That George Bush found success as a businessman only after the investment of Osama’s brother Salem and reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mahfouz is just one of those things - one of those crazy (Re: <a href="http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_07_01/Bush___Bin_Laden_-_George_W__B/bush___bin_laden_-_george_w__b.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.americanfreepress.net/10_07_01/Bush___Bin_Laden_-_George_W__B/bush___bin_laden_-_george_w__b.html</a> ) things.
 
 That Osama bin Laden is known to have been an asset of US foreign policy in no way implies he still is. (Re: <a href="http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.apfn.net/messageboard/01-11-04/discussion.cgi.28.html</a> )

 
 That al Qaeda was active in the Balkan conflict, fighting on the same side as the US as recently as 1999, while the US protected (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/VIN204A.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/VIN204A.html</a> ) its cells, is merely one of history's little aberrations. (Re: <a href="http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MNA110A.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MNA110A.html</a> )
 
 The claims of Michael Springman (Re: <a href="http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=104&row=1" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=104&row=1</a> ) , State Department veteran of the Jeddah visa bureau, that the CIA ran the office and issued visas (Re: <a href="http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2002/02/521.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://sandiego.indymedia.org/en/2002/02/521.shtml</a> ) to al Qaeda members so they could receive training in the United States, sound like the sour grapes of someone who was fired for making such wild accusations.

 
 That one of George Bush's first acts as President, in January 2001 (Re: <a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/project.jsp?project=911_project</a> ), was to end the two-year deployment of attack submarines which were positioned within striking distance of al Qaeda's Afghanistan camps, even as the group's guilt for the Cole bombing was established, proves that a transition from one administration to the next is never an easy task.
 
 That so many influential figures (Re: <a href="http://www.newamericancentury.org/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.newamericancentury.org/</a> ) in and close to the Bush White House (Re: <a href="http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm</a> ) had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" (Re: <a href="http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759" target="_blank" target="_new">http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759</a> ) before their militarist ambitions (Re: <a href="http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.newamericancentury.org/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf</a> ) could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place (Re: <a href="http://www.pnac.info/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.pnac.info/</a> ) at the right time.

 
 That the company PTECH (Re: <a href="http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021208-secure01.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalsecurity.org/org/news/2002/021208-secure01.htm</a> ), founded by a Saudi financier placed on America’s Terrorist Watch List in October 2001, had access to the FAA’s entire computer system for two years before the 9/11 attack, means he must not have been such a threat after all.
 
 That whistleblower Indira Singh (Re: <a href="http://www.madcowprod.com/mc4512004.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.madcowprod.com/mc4512004.html</a> ) was told to keep her mouth shut and forget what she learned when she took her concerns about PTECH to her employers and federal authorities, suggests she lacked the big picture. And that the Chief Auditor for JP Morgan Chase told Singh repeatedly, as she answered questions about who supplied her with what information, that "that person should be killed," suggests he should take an anger management seminar.
 
 That on May 8, 2001 (Re: <a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=2001%20-%200:05am%2011%20Sept%202001" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline.jsp?timeline=complete_911_timeline&timeperiod=2001%20-%200:05am%2011%20Sept%202001</a> ) , Dick Cheney took upon himself the job of co-ordinating a response to domestic terror attacks even as he was crafting the administration’s energy policy which bore implications (Re: <a href="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4458.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4458.htm</a> ) for America's military, circumventing the established infrastructure and ignoring the recommendations of the Hart-Rudman report, merely shows the VP to be someone who finds it hard to delegate.

 
 That the standing order which covered the shooting down (Re: <a href="http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/d302515_021897/d302515p.pdf" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/d302515_021897/d302515p.pdf</a> ) of hijacked aircraft was altered on June 1, 2001, taking discretion away from field commanders and placing it solely in the hands of the Secretary of Defense, is simply poor planning and unfortunate timing. Fortunately the error has been corrected, as the order was rescinded shortly after 9/11.
 
 That in the weeks before 9/11, FBI agent Colleen Rowley (Re: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020603/memo.html</a> ) found her investigation of Zacarias Moussaoui so perversely thwarted (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MOO208B.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MOO208B.html</a> ) that her colleagues joked that bin Laden had a mole at the FBI, proves the stress-relieving virtue of humour in the workplace.
 
 That Dave Frasca (Re: <a href="http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/43525.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2003/02/43525.shtml</a> ) of the FBI’s Radical Fundamentalist Unit received a promotion after quashing multiple, urgent requests for investigations into al Qaeda assets training at flight schools in the summer of 2001 does appear on the surface odd, but undoubtedly there's a good reason for it, quite possibly classified.

 
 That FBI informant Randy Glass (Re: <a href="http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-07-02/glass.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://innworldreport.net/video/2004-07-02/glass.html</a> ), working an undercover sting, was told by Pakistani intelligence operatives that the World Trade Center towers were coming down, and that his repeated warnings (Re: <a href="http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/randyglass.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/timeline/main/randyglass.html</a> ) which continued until weeks before the attacks, including the mention of planes used as weapons, were ignored by federal authorities, is simply one of the many "What Ifs" of that tragic day.
 
 That over the summer of 2001 Washington received many urgent, senior-level warnings (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1375723" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1375723</a> ) from foreign intelligence agencies and governments - including those of Germany, France, Great Britain, Russia, Egypt, Israel, Morocco, Afghanistan and others - of impending terror attacks using hijacked aircraft and did nothing, demonstrates the pressing need for a new Intelligence Czar.
 
 That John Ashcroft stopped flying commercial aircraft (Re: <a href="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/07/26/national/main303601.shtml</a> ) in July 2001 on account of security considerations had nothing to do with warnings regarding September 11, because he said so to the 9/11 Commission.

 
 That former lead counsel for the House David Schippers (Re: <a href="http://infowars.com/transcript_schippers.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://infowars.com/transcript_schippers.html</a> ) says he’d taken to John Ashcroft’s office specific warnings he’d learned from FBI agents in New York of an impending attack – even naming the proposed dates, names of the hijackers and the targets – and that the investigations had been stymied and the agents threatened, proves nothing but David Schipper’s pathetic need for attention.
 
 That Garth Nicolson (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=670727528" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.org/view_article.php?aid=670727528</a> ) received two warnings from contacts in the intelligence community and one from a North African head of state, which included specific site, date and source of the attacks, and passed the information to the Defense Department and the National Security Council to evidently no effect, clearly amounts to nothing, since virtually nobody has ever heard of him.
 
 That in the months prior to September 11, self-described US intelligence operative Delmart Vreeland (Re: <a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index-vreeland.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/index-vreeland.html</a> ) sought, from a Toronto jail cell, to get US and Canadian authorities to heed his warning of his accidental discovery of impending catastrophic attacks is worthless, since Vreeland was a dubious character (Re: <a href="http://www.guerrillanews.com/wildcard/vreeland_one" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.guerrillanews.com/wildcard/vreeland_one</a> ), notwithstanding the fact that many of his claims have since been proven true.

 
 That FBI Special Investigator Robert Wright (Re: <a href="http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_2469.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.judicialwatch.org/printer_2469.shtml</a> ) claims that agents assigned to intelligence operations actually protect terrorists from investigation and prosecution, that the FBI shut down his probe into terrorist training camps, and that he was removed from a money-laundering case that had a direct link to terrorism, sounds like yet more sour grapes (Re: <a href="http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/37/news-crogan.php" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.laweekly.com/ink/02/37/news-crogan.php</a> ) from a disgruntled employee.
 
 That George Bush had plans to invade Afghanistan on his desk before 9/11 (Re: <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-23-war-analysis_x.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2004-03-23-war-analysis_x.htm</a> ) demonstrates only the value of being prepared. Re: <a href="http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n20.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.wsws.org/articles/2001/nov2001/afgh-n20.shtml</a> )
 

 The suggestion that securing a pipeline (Re: <a href="http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/oilwar1.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/oilwar1.html</a> ) across Afghanistan figured into the White House’s calculations is as ludicrous as the assertion that oil played a part in determining war in Iraq.
 
 That Afghanistan is once again the world’s principal heroin producer (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MCS306A.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/MCS306A.html</a> ) is an unfortunate reality, but to claim the CIA is still actively involved (Re: <a href="http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKALLIANCE/ciaheron.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.lycaeum.org/drugwar/DARKALLIANCE/ciaheron.html</a> ) in the narcotics trade is to presume bad faith (Re: <a href="http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO404A.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO404A.html</a> ) on the part of the agency.
 
 Mahmood Ahmed (Re: <a href="http://www.billstclair.com/911timeline/main/mahmoodahmed.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.billstclair.com/911timeline/main/mahmoodahmed.html</a> ), chief of Pakistan’s ISI, must not have authorized an al Qaeda payment of $100,000 to Mohammed Atta (Re: <a href="http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?catkey=-2128936835&art_id=1454238160&sType=1" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www1.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cms.dll/articleshow?catkey=-2128936835&art_id=1454238160&sType=1</a> ) days before the attacks, and was not meeting with senior Washington officials over the week of 9/11, because I didn’t read anything about him in the official report.

 
 That Porter Goss met with Ahmed (Re: <a href="http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/76366.php" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.melbourne.indymedia.org/news/2004/08/76366.php</a> ) the morning of September 11 in his capacity as Chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence has no bearing whatsoever upon his recent selection by the White House to head the Central Intelligence Agency.
 
 That Goss's congressional seat encompasses the 9/11 hijackers' Florida base (Re: <a href="http://portergoss.house.gov/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://portergoss.house.gov/</a> ) of operation, including their flight schools, is precisely the kind of meaningless factoid a conspiracy theorist would bring up.
 
 It's true that George HW Bush and Dick Cheney spent the evening of September 10 alone in the Oval Office, but what's wrong with old colleagues catching up? And it's true that George HW Bush and Shafig bin Laden, Osama's brother, spent the morning of September 11 together (Re: <a href="http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://observer.guardian.co.uk/magazine/story/0,11913,738196,00.html</a> ) at a board meeting of the Carlyle Group, but the bin Ladens are a big family.
 
 That FEMA arrived (Re: <a href="http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004/07/fema-in-big-apple.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2004/07/fema-in-big-apple.html</a> ) in New York on Sept 10 to prepare for a scheduled biowarfare drill, and had a triage centre ready to go that was larger and better equipped than the one that was lost in the collapse of WTC 7, was a lucky twist of fate.

 
 Newsweek’s report (Re: <a href="http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id2672/pg1/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/article/id2672/pg1/</a> ) that senior Pentagon officials cancelled flights on Sept 10 for the following day on account of security concerns is only newsworthy because of what happened the following morning.
 
 That George Bush's telephone logs (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1819543" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1819543</a> ) for September 11 do not exist should surprise no one, given the confusion of the day.
 
 That Mohamed Atta attended (Re: <a href="http://www.911independentcommission.org/airports31804.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.911independentcommission.org/airports31804.html</a> ) the International Officer's School at Maxwell Air Force Base, that Abdulaziz Alomari attended Brooks Air Force Base Aerospace Medical School, that Saeed Alghamdi attended the Defense Language Institute in Monterey merely shows it is a small world (Re: <a href="http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/offi-j21.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jun2002/offi-j21.shtml</a> ), after all.

 
 That Lt Col Steve Butler, Vice Chancellor for student affairs of the Defense Language Institute during Alghamdi's terms, was disciplined (Re: <a href="http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/06.06E.butler.bush.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.truthout.org/docs_02/06.06E.butler.bush.htm</a> ) , removed from his post and threatened with court martial when he wrote "Bush knew of the impending attacks on America. He did nothing to warn the American people because he needed this war on terrorism. What is...contemptible is the President of the United States not telling the American people what he knows for political gain," is the least that should have happened for such disrespect shown his Commander in Chief.
 
 That Mohammed Atta (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886</a> ) dressed like a Mafioso, had a stripper girlfriend, smuggled drugs, was already a licensed pilot when he entered the US, enjoyed pork chops, drank to excess and did cocaine, was closer to Europeans than Arabs in Florida, and included the names of defence contractors on his email list, proves how dangerous the radical fundamentalist Muslim can be.
 
 That 43 lbs of heroin was found on board the Lear Jet owned by Wally Hilliard (Re: <a href="http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/questions/flightschool/hilliard-bankrolled-911-flight-school-and-rudi-dekkers.txt" target="_blank" target="_new">http://newsmine.org/archive/9-11/questions/flightschool/hilliard-bankrolled-911-flight-school-and-rudi-dekkers.txt</a> ), the owner of Atta’s flight school, just three weeks after Atta enrolled – the biggest seizure ever in Central Florida – was just bad luck (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1294206" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1294206</a> ). That Hilliard was not charged shows how specious the claims for conspiracy truly are.

 
 That Hilliard’s plane (Re: <a href="http://www.madcowprod.com/books.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.madcowprod.com/books.html</a> ) had made 30-round trips to Venezuela with the same passengers who always paid cash, that the plane had been supplied by a pair of drug smugglers who had also outfitted CIA drug runner Barry Seal (Re: <a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/W_plane.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ciadrugs/W_plane.html</a> ), and that 9/11 commissioner Richard ben-Veniste had been Seal’s attorney (Re: <a href="http://sanderhicks.com/benveniste.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://sanderhicks.com/benveniste.html</a> ) before Seal’s murder (Re: <a href="http://www.wethepeople.la/seal2.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.wethepeople.la/seal2.htm</a> ), shows nothing but the lengths to which conspiracists will go to draw sinister conclusions. Re: <a href="http://www.voxfux.com/features/bush_crime_family.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.voxfux.com/features/bush_crime_family.html</a> 

 Reports (Re: <a href="http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34910,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,34910,00.html</a> ) of insider trading (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x509119" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x509119</a> ) on 9/11 are false, because the SEC (Re: <a href="http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2004-98.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.sec.gov/news/press/2004-98.htm</a> ) investigated and found only respectable investors who will remain nameless involved, and no terrorists, so the windfall profit-taking (Re: <a href="http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/12_06_01_death_profits_pt1.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/12_06_01_death_profits_pt1.html</a> ) was merely, as ever, coincidental.
 
 That heightened security for the World Trade Centre was lifted immediately prior (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x10267#10267" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=125x10267#10267</a> ) to the attacks illustrates that it always happens when you least expect it.

 
 That Hani Hanjour, the pilot of Flight 77, was so incompetent (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=976740&mesg_id=976740" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=104&topic_id=976740&mesg_id=976740</a> ) he could not fly a Cessna in August, but in September managed to fly a 767 at excessive speed into a spiraling, 270-degree descent and a level impact of the first floor of the Pentagon, on the only side that was virtually empty and had been hardened to withstand a terrorist attack, merely demonstrates that people can do almost anything once they set their minds to it.
 
 That none (Re: <a href="http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flightdata.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evidence/flightdata.html</a> ) of the flight data recorders were said to be recoverable even though they were located in the tail sections, and that until 9/11, no solid-state recorder in a catastrophic crash had been unrecoverable, shows how there's a first time for everything.
 
 That Mohammed Atta left a uniform, a will, a Koran, his driver's license and a "how to fly planes" (Re: <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN010912.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/WTC_MAIN010912.html</a> ) video in his rental car at the airport means he had other things on his mind.

 
 The mention of Israelis with links to military-intelligence having been arrested (Re: <a href="http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://abcnews.go.com/sections/2020/DailyNews/2020_whitevan_020621.html</a> ) on Sept 11 videotaping and celebrating the attacks, of an Israeli espionage ring surveiling DEA and defense installations and trailing (Re: <a href="http://iraq-info.1accesshost.com/schrom.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://iraq-info.1accesshost.com/schrom.html</a> ) the hijackers, and of a warning of impending attacks delivered to the Israeli company Odigo two hours before the first plane hit, does not deserve a response. That the stories also appeared in publications such as Ha'aretz (Re: <a href="http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.haaretzdaily.com/hasen/pages/ShArt.jhtml?itemNo=77744&contrassID=/has%5C</a> )and Forward (Re: <a href="http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.03.15/news2.html</a> ) is a sad display of self-hatred among certain elements of the Israeli media.
 
 That multiple military wargames and simulations were underway the morning of 9/11 – one simulating the crash of a plane (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1298401" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1298401</a> ) into a building; another, a live-fly simulation of multiple hijackings (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1694495" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1694495</a> ) – and took many interceptors away from the eastern seaboard and confused field commanders as to which was a real hijacked aircraft and which was a hoax, was a bizarre coincidence, but no less a coincidence.

 
 That the National Military Command Center ops director asked a rookie substitute (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x631352" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x631352</a> )to stand his watch at 8:30 am on Sept. 11 is nothing more than bad timing.
 
 That a recording (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=535331&mesg_id=535331" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=535331&mesg_id=535331</a> )made Sept 11 of air traffic controllers’ describing what they had witnessed, was destroyed by an FAA official who crushed it in his hand, cut the tape into little pieces and dropped them in different trash cans around the building, is something no doubt that overzealous official wishes he could undo.
 
 That the FBI knew precisely which (Re: <a href="http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=7816" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.observer.com/pages/story.asp?ID=7816</a> ) Florida flight schools to descend upon hours after the attacks should make every American feel safer knowing their federal agents are on the ball.

 
 That a former flight school executive (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1433886</a> ) believes the hijackers were "double agents," and says about Atta and associates, "Early on I gleaned that these guys had government protection. They were let into this country for a specific purpose," and was visited by the FBI just four hours after the attacks to intimidate him into silence, proves he's an unreliable witness, for the simple reason there is no conspiracy.
 
 That Jeb Bush was on board (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1328855" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1328855</a> ) an aircraft that removed flight school records to Washington in the middle of the night on Sept 12th demonstrates how seriously the governor takes the issue of national security.
 
 To insinuate evil motive from the mercy flights (Re: <a href="http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=September_11%2C_2001:_Evacuation_of_Saudi_Nationals" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=September_11%2C_2001:_Evacuation_of_Saudi_Nationals</a> ) of bin Laden family members and Saudi royals after 9/11 shows the sickness of the conspiratorial mindset.

 
 Le Figaro’s report (Re: <a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.guardian.co.uk/waronterror/story/0,1361,584444,00.html</a> ) in October 2001, known to have originated with French intelligence, that the CIA met Osama bin Laden in a Dubai hospital in July 2001, proves again the perfidy of the French.
 
 That the tape in which bin Laden claims responsibility for the attacks was released by the State Department after having been found providentially by US forces in Afghanistan, and depicts a fattened Osama with a broader face and a flatter nose, proves Osama, and Osama alone, masterminded 9/11.
 
 That at the battle of Tora Bora, where bin Laden was surrounded on three sides, Special Forces received no order to advance and capture him and were forced to stand and watch as two Russian-made helicopters (Re: <a href="http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story-archive.php?Template=terrorism&Story=37935" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.fayettevillenc.com/story-archive.php?Template=terrorism&Story=37935</a> ) flew into the area where bin Laden was believed hiding, loaded up passengers and returned to Pakistan, demonstrates how confusing the modern battlefield can be.
 
 That upon returning to Fort Bragg from Tora Bora, the same Special Operations troops who had been stood down from capturing bin Laden, suffered a unusual spree of murder/suicides (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1536576#1536694" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=1536576#1536694</a> ), is nothing more than a series of senseless tragedies.

 
 Reports that bin Laden is currently receiving periodic dialysis treatment (Re: <a href="http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-789042,curpg-1.cms" target="_blank" target="_new">http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/msid-789042,curpg-1.cms</a> ) in a Pakistani medical hospital are simply too incredible to be true.
 
 That the White House went on Cipro September 11 (Re: <a href="http://www.judicialwatch.org/2953.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.judicialwatch.org/2953.shtml</a> ) shows the foresightedness of America’s emergency response.
 
 That the anthrax was mailed to perceived liberal media and the Democratic leadership (Re: <a href="http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/anth-j23.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.wsws.org/articles/2002/jan2002/anth-j23.shtml</a> ) demonstrates only the perversity of the terrorist psyche.
 
 That the anthrax attacks (Re: <a href="http://www.oilempire.us/anthrax.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.oilempire.us/anthrax.html</a> )appeared to silence opponents of the Patriot Act (Re: <a href="http://www.freefromterror.net/other_articles/gov_anthrax.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.freefromterror.net/other_articles/gov_anthrax.html</a> ) shows only that appearances can be deceiving.

 
 That the Ames-strain anthrax was found to have originated at Fort Detrick (Re: <a href="http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03202002.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.glennbeck.com/news/03202002.shtml</a> ) , and was beyond the capability of all but a few labs to refine, underscores the importance of allowing the investigation to continue without the distraction of absurd conspiracy theories (Re: <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org/madsenanthrax.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.counterpunch.org/madsenanthrax.html</a> ).
 
 That Republican guru Grover Norquist has been found to have aided financiers (Re: <a href="http://www.citizensoldier.org/norquist.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.citizensoldier.org/norquist.html</a> ) and supporters of Islamic terror to gain access to the Bush White House, and is a founder of the Islamic Institute, which the Treasury Department believes to be a source of funding for al Qaeda, suggests Norquist is at worst, naive, and at best, needs a wider circle of friends.
 
 That the Department of Justice consistently chooses to see accused 9/11 plotters go free rather than permit the courtroom testimony of al Qaeda leaders (Re: <a href="http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0206-04.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0206-04.htm</a> )in American custody looks bad, but only because we don't have all the facts.

 
 That the White House balked (Re: <a href="http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/" target="_blank" target="_new">http://edition.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/01/29/inv.terror.probe/</a> ) at any inquiry into the events of 9/11, then starved it of funds (Re: <a href="http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,437267,00.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,437267,00.html</a> ) and stonewalled (Re: <a href="http://home.earthlink.net/~imfalse/9-11_commission_says.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://home.earthlink.net/~imfalse/9-11_commission_says.html</a> ) it, was unfortunate, but since the commission didn't find for conspiracy it's all a non issue anyway.
 
 That the 9/11 commission's executive director and "gatekeeper," Philip Zelikow, was so closely involved in the events under investigation that he testified(Re: <a href="http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040115-024012-7011r" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040115-024012-7011r</a> ) before the the commission as part of the inquiry, shows only an apparent conflict of interest.
 

 That commission chair Thomas Kean is, like George Bush, a Texas oil executive who had business dealings with reputed al Qaeda financier Khalid bin Mafouz (Re: <a href="http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Thomas_H._Kean" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Thomas_H._Kean</a> ), suggests Texas is smaller than they say it is.
 
 That co-chair Lee Hamilton has a history as a Bush family "fixer," including clearing Bush Sr of the claims arising from the 1980 "October Surprise" (Re: <a href="http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/hamiltonoctsurprise.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/hamiltonoctsurprise.htm</a> ), is of no concern, since only conspiracists believe there was such a thing (Re: <a href="http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.consortiumnews.com/archive/xfile.html</a> )as an October Surprise.
 
 That FBI whistleblower Sibel Edmonds accuses the agency of intentionally fudging specific pre-9/11 warnings and harboring a foreign espionage ring in its translation department, and claims she witnessed evidence of the semi-official infrastructure of money-laundering (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x655980" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x655980</a> ) and narcotics trade behind the attacks, is of no account, since John Ashcroft has gagged her with the rare invocation of "State Secrets Privilege," and retroactively classified her public testimony. For the sake of national security, let us speak no more of her.

 
 That, when commenting on Edmond's case, Daniel Ellsberg (Re: <a href="http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds1.htm" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.breakfornews.com/Sibel-Edmonds1.htm</a> )remarked that Ashcroft could go to prison for his part in a cover-up, suggests Ellsberg is giving comfort to the terrorists, and could, if he doesn't wise up, find himself declared an enemy combatant (Re: <a href="http://www.claremont.org/projects/jurisprudence/hamdi_ussc.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.claremont.org/projects/jurisprudence/hamdi_ussc.html</a> ).
 
 I could go on. And on and on. But I trust you get the point. Which is simply this: there are no secrets, an American government would never accept civilian casualties for geostrategic gain, and conspiracies are for the weak-minded and gullible.
 
 Jeff Wells (describes himself as a)
 Cautiously pessimistic Canadian author and satirist. My first novel, Anxious Gravity, is published by Dundurn Press.
 
 I posted an earlier version of this last week at Democratic Underground (Re: <a href="http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?</a> 

 Re: <a href="http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html" target="_blank" target="_new">http://rigorousintuition.blogspot.com/2004/08/coincidence-theorists-guide-to-911.html</a> 
 (In accordance with Title 17 U.S.C. Section 107, the material on this site is distributed without profit to those who have expressed a prior interest in receiving the included information for research and educational purposes. For more information go to: <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml" target="_blank" target="_new">http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.shtml</a> )</div>

Willravel · 09-22-2004, 08:31 AM

"That so many influential figures (Re: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ ) in and close to the Bush White House (Re: http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm ) had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" (Re: http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759 ) before their militarist ambitions (Re: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf ) could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place (Re: http://www.pnac.info/ ) at the right time."

http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm was pretty much what I'd been looking for. This general knowledge is a perfect exaple of the 'why' question posed by this board; why would the government carry out or allow this to happen? Impatience from the PNAC and it's various members led to the eventual plan to help or knowinlgy allow the terrible happenings on September 11, 2001.
I have to say that was a pretty amazing post. Host, you are taking steps to do some real good in our country. I respect you for that.

feelgood · 09-23-2004, 02:20 PM

Here's an excellent physics analysis of the "plane" crash into the pentagon

http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3

I've read all of the post and I wasn't really convinced. Some post convinced me that it was a terrorist attack, some convinced me that it wasn't.

But after reading that article above, I'm really convinced that there was no 757.

ShaniFaye · 09-23-2004, 02:25 PM

geee...did you ignore that I posted that link several posts up hehehehe

I thought that was the best link of them all

feelgood · 09-23-2004, 02:41 PM

Oops, such a large list, I'm sure that everybody would read it.

It all comes down to this, most American or Citizen of this world, don't even surf the internet. Much less, even look for information relating to 9/11. Even more less, specifically theories surrounding 9/11.

The biggest problem is lack of information among general population. I'm sure you'll walk downtown of any major city and poll the people about what they thought about the pentagon. Ask them if they have any doubt regarding it and then present all of the above information and ask them if they now have any doubts. I didn't have doubt following 9/11, but I got a link regarding the pentagon attack in the form of flash. I started to have doubt, so I researched and now, I'm convinced that it wasn't the terrorist.

09-09-2004, 04:34 PM	#44 (permalink)
seretogis Huggles, sir? Location: Seattle	host: I noticed you do this in another thread too, but using bold like that is really irritating. If you want to differentiate between what you are saying (or with bold, shouting) and what you are quoting, please use the [ quote ] [ /quote ] tags instead of bolding large stretches of text. __________________ seretogis - sieg heil perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

09-09-2004, 09:05 PM	#46 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	I agree this has been beaten to death here. Moved to Paranoia. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

09-10-2004, 06:51 AM	#48 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	This are two interesting sites that one of my friends sent me this morning this one seems a little more "technical" http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3 questions about supposed phone call from flight 77 http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevese...es911/lies.htm __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-12-2004, 07:38 PM	#50 (permalink)
VitaminH An embarrassment to myself and those around me... Location: Pants	The mere fact that this was on ebaums is enough evidance to disprove it if you ask me... __________________ "Glory is fleeting, but obscurity is forever." - Napoleon Bonaparte

09-14-2004, 04:59 AM	#53 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	Just thinking, cruise missiles have wings, right? Maybe they sent one of those =) __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

09-09-2004, 05:40 PM	#45 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I'm sorry but planes don't just have switches that make them disappear from radar. We may not know exact plane that is making a blip but there is still a blip. Or did the plane fly at ground level the whole way?

09-14-2004, 01:14 AM	#51 (permalink)
fhqwhgads Junkie	I've been lurking this thread for a couple of days, and I suddenly feel the need to contribute. I'll do my best to try to avoid being patronizing. I just want to make sure that I have the theory correct. From what I understand, here's what you guys are saying: Something obviously damaged the Pentagon, we can all agree on that. The damage doesn't appear to be what someone would assume a large passenger jet crashing into a reinforced structure would look like. Why any of us would claim to know what a passenger jet crashing into a reinforced structure SHOULD look like, I'm not sure. However, since the damage doesn't meet our expectation, we look for an alternative solution as to what happened. Here's what we have come up with: The government shot down a hijacked passenger jet and killed hundreds of people. Now, instead of blaming the crash on the hijackers (easy scapegoats in my mind) they decide that they need to come up with a cover story about what happened to this jet and the people aboard. Someone comes up with the idea to crash something into the Pentagon to explain the missing plane. So.... the government decides to fly something that is NOT a passenger jet into the Pentagon....and then brainwash people that witnessed the event into believing that they saw a passenger jet and NOT the actual object the government decided to use. And because I choose not to believe this string of events, I am being "close minded"?

09-14-2004, 08:37 AM	#55 (permalink)
tritium Professor of Drinkology	I'd think that the trackmarks of other planes hitting the ground were a result of the pilots attempt to set the plane down as gently as possible. Remember, the September 11th hijackers weren't interested in setting anything down gently -- they wanted maximum destruction and death. That they hit the ground at all was a function of "pilot" error. So, if you're questioning the existence or absence of a long drag mark on the ground in Arlington, Virginia, remember that they hijackers weren't aiming for the dirt, but the Pentagon building itself. Speaking to the whole, "Where is the plane" conspiracy: Remember that the resulting jet fuel fire was actually the catalyst to the WTC collapse. The intense fire caused by the boiling jetfuel actually melted the building's support steel and aluminum and dropped the buildings to the ground. The same fire would have easily caused the plastic and aluminum honey-comb aircraft construction to vaporize. Try tossing an aluminum can in a campfire -- it WILL melt and eventually burn away entirely. So, if a campfire is hot enough to vaporize aluminum, wouldn't a furnace of jet fuel be more capable and efficient? Campfires will actually melt glass bottles too. Any fired glass from the plane would have been indistinguishable from other glass found around the WTC rubble. __________________ Blah. Last edited by tritium; 09-14-2004 at 08:40 AM..

09-15-2004, 01:11 AM	#56 (permalink)
hulk C'mon, just blow it. Location: Perth, Australia	What about the turbines that are built to withstand the heat coming out of the back of the jet? I think they'd fare a bit better than most of it. It's still pushing it a bit to say that an entire aircraft and it's contents were completely obliterated with almost no trace left behind. __________________ "'There's a tendency among the press to attribute the creation of a game to a single person,' says Warren Spector, creator of Thief and Deus Ex." -- From an IGN game review.

09-15-2004, 06:53 AM	#58 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I just found this picture...from this website. Interesting cad animations... http://www.mikejwilson.com/911/

09-19-2004, 02:30 AM	#59 (permalink)
jimmyjambam Upright	A friend of mine saw a big freaking plane smash into the pentagon.. its pretty hard to convince me that he imagined it..

09-19-2004, 10:54 AM	#60 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Several of my uncles friends died in the explosion. A lot of people saw a lot of things. Your friend had to be pretty close to see the crash (there are only a few spots where you can see the area from that aren't government property). The areas are either on the highway, on a side street, or in one of the taller buildings. If he were in ANY of these spots, all he would have seen was a split second flash of something go by (based on the speed and trajectory given to the press by the government's official press release). He saw something. I wouldn't argue with that. He wasn't imagining things. But did he see a Boeing 757-200 smash into the building? It's pretty hard to imagine that someone suddenly looking at something moving as fast as that plane or whatever it was can give a description so speccific a to give the exact size of the plane.

09-19-2004, 08:33 PM	#61 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	I just read this thread for the first time and the link originally posted is no longer playing the video. I have searched around and can't seem to find it anywhere....hmmm :hmmm: Does anyone know where this can be found currently? Anyone? Bueller? __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

09-19-2004, 10:12 PM	#62 (permalink)
Hard8s Addict Location: Wherever I am!	Try this one. http://www.freedomunderground.org/me...e/pentagon.php __________________ If ignorance is bliss, then wipe this smile off my face!

09-21-2004, 06:31 PM	#63 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	uh. wow. hold me. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha)

09-22-2004, 08:31 AM	#65 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	"That so many influential figures (Re: http://www.newamericancentury.org/ ) in and close to the Bush White House (Re: http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm ) had expressed, just a year before the attacks, the need for a "new Pearl Harbor" (Re: http://pilger.carlton.com/print/124759 ) before their militarist ambitions (Re: http://www.newamericancentury.org/Re...asDefenses.pdf ) could be fulfilled, demonstrates nothing more than the accidental virtue of being in the right place (Re: http://www.pnac.info/ ) at the right time." http://www.crisispapers.org/Editorials/PNAC-Primer.htm was pretty much what I'd been looking for. This general knowledge is a perfect exaple of the 'why' question posed by this board; why would the government carry out or allow this to happen? Impatience from the PNAC and it's various members led to the eventual plan to help or knowinlgy allow the terrible happenings on September 11, 2001. I have to say that was a pretty amazing post. Host, you are taking steps to do some real good in our country. I respect you for that.

09-23-2004, 02:20 PM	#66 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	Here's an excellent physics analysis of the "plane" crash into the pentagon http://physics911.org/net/modules/ne....php?storyid=3 I've read all of the post and I wasn't really convinced. Some post convinced me that it was a terrorist attack, some convinced me that it wasn't. But after reading that article above, I'm really convinced that there was no 757. __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

09-23-2004, 02:25 PM	#67 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	geee...did you ignore that I posted that link several posts up hehehehe I thought that was the best link of them all __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

09-23-2004, 02:41 PM	#68 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	Oops, such a large list, I'm sure that everybody would read it. It all comes down to this, most American or Citizen of this world, don't even surf the internet. Much less, even look for information relating to 9/11. Even more less, specifically theories surrounding 9/11. The biggest problem is lack of information among general population. I'm sure you'll walk downtown of any major city and poll the people about what they thought about the pentagon. Ask them if they have any doubt regarding it and then present all of the above information and ask them if they now have any doubts. I didn't have doubt following 9/11, but I got a link regarding the pentagon attack in the form of flash. I started to have doubt, so I researched and now, I'm convinced that it wasn't the terrorist. __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war