Stompy

I bought a guitar a few months ago, and I've had a 5 string bass for a while.

There's a LOT of stuff that floats around in my head that I'd like to create, but... I know nothing about music hardware.

1. I'm looking for a drum machine that sounds as close to real drums as possible, but also (of course) with various other kits. I haven't really toyed w/ em at Guitar Center because I'm not sure what I'm doin w/ em. How exactly do they work.. can you layer the different drums - do the bass drum track, then snare, cymbals, etc?

2. I need a keyboard that's a bit more than "500 built in sounds". Something I can... make my own sounds with. I'm a big fan of Nine Inch Nails, and I've often wondered how the hell he makes all of those sounds..

3. Sound cards.. pretty much something to get my music into my computer so I can layer/mix it all.

Does anyone have any suggestions to any of these? Any help is greatly appreciated

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Fourtyrulz

1. You could get the physical drum machine, something like a Boss or Alesis drum machine for around 300 bucks. Or you could go with digital drum "machines" like Fruity Loops or Cubasis samplers (which you could just download off bittorrent.) You used to not have very good drum options but at www.toontrack.com they have an AWESOME drum kit sampled by the drummer from Meshuggah. I use Fruity Loops with a drumkit from the Drumkit From Hell from toontrack.com. (it was allllll free ) I could send you some samples of riffs and stuff I've made with it mixed in Cool Edit Pro if you want. My email: fourtyrulz@hotmail.com


2. For what you want to do with the keys a Korg Triton would work perfectly. My friend back in highschool actually recieved one as a gift from the music staff, and it...is...insane! www.musiciansfriend.com has some good info on them, but they are brutally expensive. Ebay probably has them for much cheaper used. I'd even go as far to say that Trent Reznor uses a Korg Triton with some kind of midi controller for special effects.

3. The sound card I've been using lately is simply a Creative Audigy, which works just fine for recording your own stuff, but I've been saving up for a Midiman Audiophile soundcard...arguably the best value for how great it really is. You can find 'em over at www.midiman.net

You might want a mixer if you want to mic up a guitar or other instruments. One band I was with recorded their whole album on a relatively cheap Behringer mixer off of ebay. Given our experience with recording and producing at the time, it sounds pretty damn good! For all the features it comes with it is an awesome deal. You can pick up brand new Behringer mixers at Musiciansfriend for a really nice price. The Eurotrack UB1202 is wonderful, but maybe too much for what you want right now...one with less channels and less features = less $$$.

Good luck!!! Remember: Ebay is your friend!

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the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

Glory's Sun

I've never used a standard drum machine. Everything I do is on Reason. That way I can overlay the patterns and manipulate how I want them to sound. You can also plug a keyboard into the computer and do what you want with it. Reason has some sick drum-kit refills out also.

I guess this didn't really answer your question. You could look at musiciansfriend.com and see what they offer. They are a bit pricey but they may be able to point you in the right direction.

Good luck.

thinktank

If you're going to put money into a REAL drum machine (sorry, but the $300 just aren’t going to do much of anything at all) you’re going to need to look at one of the bigger ones. Just about everything you want to do, you could do with one of the Akai MPCs... the MPC3000 is about as sick as is gets for drum machines, you run into guys like DJ Quik using them, but they will also run you a couple thousand. The old MPC60s aren’t even bad, you might be able to find one used at a decent price. Roland has a decent one if I remember correctly, pretty much a rip-off design of the akai, and I think that one is about a thousand dollars cheaper. I'm the kind of guy who likes live manipulation, so that’s why I use a drum machine... but if you're just doing recorded stuff, you don’t even really need one. Cubase or Protools are the two programs I recommend for music creation/editing.

dX927

I'll back up his claim. Fruity Loops is fantastic, it just takes a little while to get used to all of the functions and to figure out what's what.

thinktank

I hate to step on toes, and i'm really not trying to make this sound as an attack. but if you're actually trying to make professional sounding music, and you want your music to be taken seriously, there is absolutely no way you should be using fruityloops. It's pretty much just a dumbed down version of the rest of that type of program. It's what just about everybody i talk to got their start on. I had a friend shop around a demo he made on fruityloops (and the kid was great with the program, sampled in really clean vocals and synth work even) but he was literally laughed at by some of the guys he had meetings with.

vanblah

It's all about what you are trying to do. What kind of music do you want to make?

Acid/Fruity Loops/Abelton are all associated with techno. Although you can do more with them ...

The MPC3000 is associated with hip-hop and rap, although again, you can do much more with it.

It sounds like you need something general like Sonar (www.cakewalk.com). You can use drum loops (check out www.drumsondemand.com for quality loops). You can also use VSTi and DXi drum machines, synthesizers, samplers etc.

For a VSTi synth (or softsynth) all you need is a cheap controller (http://www.zzounds.com/cat--Keyboard-Controllers--2684) that connects to the computer and triggers the sounds created in the softsynth.

You don't need a "state-of-the-art" studio for what you want to do. It's called a scratch or writing studio. Then when you are ready to go to the next level check out demo studios in your area. You don't even need to think about pro studios right now.

As for sound cards you have to decide whether you need to record more than two tracks at a time. Probably not, but you never know. Check out http://www.zzounds.com/cat--PCI-Audio-Interfaces--2421 for more information.

Doug

PS: How Trent Reznor makes those sounds:

Glory's Sun

I'll back you up on this. Fruity Loops is shit. I'm a Reason junkie but Cubase and Protools are good also.

Stompy

Thanks for the replies.

As for what I'm trying to make... more along the lines of... metal I guess, although stuff I make is pretty odd and experimental, hints of syntheziser here and there as I see fit.

Yeah, I've used Fruity Loops, and ... I don't like it. I need something more... real. Their drums are entirely too fake, although I'm sure there are kits you can download for it.

I'm not tryin to get pro-sounding stuff, but close to it. Something that doesn't sound god-awful to listen to, anyway - cheesy drums, etc. W/ Fruity Loops, you're very limited to what you can do with the whole "4 beats per bar" buttons. Makes the drums sound... very unnatural and non-realistic.

Not to mention it just gives me a headache to use that app.

As for the big stuff that Reznor has in that pic.. I think that's his professional studio - I'm more concerned about the machines used to generate his sounds. I don't think it takes all those to make a grind/bass sound

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vanblah

Those are the machines that he uses to make sounds. None of the stuff you see in the picture has much to do with recording. Those are all custom made synthesizers ... old-school analog.

Once he creates the sounds he probably pre-records most of it and uses samplers for the live performances. He uses cheap keyboard controllers to trigger the sounds in the machines off-stage. That's why he can "destroy" keyboards on stage.

Drums on Demand is really the most affordable "natural-sounding" drum loop cd's I've ever heard. For metal you probably want the Upbeat and Aggressive. You can spend more on even better stuff. Organization is another reason I like Drums on Demand. His CD's are very well-organized ... all the fills/choruses/verses and other stuff are all grouped together under a folder with the BPM and a description of the style.

thinktank

I've done a few digital drum metal projects. I think moving metal into the digital age will be HUGE soon. Look at what our man Scott Hull has been doing with Agoraphobic Nosebleed... outside of the fact that it's physically impossible to match how fast the drums are, they sound realistic. You're riding a wave sir. If you plan on preforming this stuff live too, a drum machine is perfect, a lot of them allow real time manipulation of what you've already got down. I'd say shop around for drum machines, all you really need is the spec sheets. I'd make sure to get one that has space for extra samples, as you obviously dont want to use just what your unit comes with, and one thats going to have a lot of control over the individual sounds. I started with one of these, the V-Edit mode is awesome as far as sound control over samples:
http://www.rolandus.com/products/det...31&ProdID=TD-8

Fourtyrulz

Did any of you guys check out the drumkit from hell from toon track? I've made plenty of awesome drum tracks with those, just email me and I'll send you some. There really is no end to what you can do with Fruity Loops, a good drumkit, and a sound editing program: Make odd measures, drum fills, etc. Yes, the default kits do sound like dog farts but with the DKFH it sounds incredible. I'm not trying to argue, I just don't think you guys are giving enough credit to a pretty easy to use and versatile program if you have the right stuff and know how to do it. Remember when listening to these demos...the drums really are programmed! http://www.toontrack.com/demos.shtml

If you like grind but hate Agoraphobic nosebleed (coughmecough ) check out Fuck...I'm Dead. Their drums are also programmed but sound damn heavy.

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

roachboy

metal?
i am not sure that a drum machine is a good idea, given that the drumming is usually such a big part of the sound....over the past few months, i have been (for better or worse) listening to alot of black metal, which was made almost exclusively on shitty recording equipment with simple multitracking...on the other hand, i can see how it could be interesting--maybe a spillover from drum-and-bass into metal, yes?---i would probably try to rethink how the drums are to be placed in the mix if you are thinking about heading in this direction.


trent reznor's rig looks like an old fairlight synth....is it? anyone know?
i would recommend thinking in terms of an analog synth, actually--an old school one (the guy who does electronics in my group uses an old electrocomp and an arp 2500)--the advantages are--the sound---most synths are not instruments that require much keyboard dexterity--the keys are mostly triggers--total control over the sound parameters--no presets to tempt you away from building your own sounds...

at the limit, a buchla would be optimal, but they are super expensive, when they come available. buchla synths were not built with the idea that a synth should imitate other instruments, and were designed by a musician, so the logic is quite different from what you find on the moog and post-moog designs.

have fun with this...post the results when you think they are ready to be shown to folk.

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it make you sick.

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Fourtyrulz

It actually sounds pretty good with some bands. Fuck...I'm Dead being a pretty good example. I think maybe even Anaal Nakrakth (spelling??) uses a drum machine. If your goal is speed, why not use digital drums?

__________________
the·o·ry - a working hypothesis that is considered probable based on experimental evidence or factual or conceptual analysis and is accepted as a basis for experimentation.
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.
- Merriam-Webster's dictionary

thinktank

There just aren’t enough sounds you can make with an instrument anymore. Classicists may argue, but I think the drums/bass/guitar/instrument ideology is dying. I welcome the change, digital is the new frontier.

projectself

in reply to the previous post - yeah.. theres nothing much <i>new</i> you can do with instruments - but there's something about the talent, the history and the passion behind the playing of a musical instrument. and just because the majority of 3/4 piece bands arent doing much of anything that hasn't been done before, doesn't mean that they can't create really fucking awesome music. and it doesn't mean they need digital devices to enhace the quality. i welcome the age of digital too, but never would i welcome the idea of pushing aside instruments to make place for it. i think if anything, both used in conjunction would be the ideal set.

vanblah

I agree. In fact most bands and artists are doing just that. Digitally enhancing an organic/acoustic instrument.

I love some of the completely digital music that's available. I really enjoy playing with sounds and synthesizers etc. But I'll never get over sitting at a grand piano and just ... playing. I also like to take recordings of things that I've done on the piano and turning them into other things.

I also just bought Kantos (http://www.antarestech.com/products/kantos.html) ... so far it's pretty cool. In a nutshell it allows you to sing a line and convert it to a synth sound. Like a vocoder on steroids.

But that's a topic for another thread.

roachboy

i think you might hvae misunderstood something of the post above: i have no problem with digital music in general--i wonder a bit about using a laptop on stage, however, becaseu i think that everything you might be doing on other instruments/set-ups that the audience does not expect ot hear from the sources gets attributed to the laptop----maybe this will bug me less with time, but at the moment, it is curious.

what i was responding to was the idea of using a drum machine in a metal context--this mostly because there is something important it seems to me in the physicality of the drumming in that context---usually, what impresses me in the metal i listen to is the drumming in any event. so what i meant was to maybe consider using the drums differently in the construction of the mix rather than using a machine to duplicate a live drummer and pretend in this mix that you are not doing it.

as for the question of speed in relation to the "new frontier" of digital production: people have been using mechanical means to generate music that would otherwise be impossible to play for a long time--colin narcarrow's insane piano rolls for example--there is nothing in itself interesting about it, and that you can do it on a laptop does not change anything about the matter.

most of what i do with the piano happens in real time--i never treat the piano pieces ex post--i figure it is more disorienting to hear it without giving a listener the postproduction to think about it through.

the point is obvious: there is nothing about the fact of working in a digital medium that makes anything you produce new or interesting. in this, the medium is like any other instrument--it has skills that you have to develop, ways of hearing that you learn/work out along the way, modes of placing sound--allof which you get to by interacting with the medium. no way around it. chances are that when you are starting out, your stuff will be copies of what you know from other areas....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite