Stompy

I've been wondering for quite some time exactly what made Metallica change for the worse. Fame, greed, both?

There are probably some Metallica fans who will be offended at this, and no offense intended, but it's probably no surprise that the Metallica of today is nothing even remotely like the Metallica of the olden days.

I've been listening to Master of Puppets and And Justice for All lately, and it's REALLY fucking depressing when compared to what they are now. You have these metal GODS that are full of jaw dropping talent that eventually morph into something that's pretty much considered a joke.. at least compared to what they were.

That could either be a good thing, or a bad thing... good if the music has evolved into a shape that's still energetic, innovative, and just flat out amazing, bad if it's turned into something bland, unoriginal, and really bastardized of what they should be making or what they are capable of making.

I know a lot of people are quick to say "they sold out" or "greed", and that may very well be the case, but how does a band go from Master of Puppets to St. Anger? Or better yet... the heaviness that was the black album (although not as heavy as previous works, it was still good) to Load. That's quite a goddamn difference.

Ok ok, so Cliff Burton died which resulted in a change of the original linup, and inevitably a change of sound. That was a big loss, but even w/ Newsted, And Justice for All and the Black Album weren't all that bad... although you'd probably hear a lot of older fans saying that the Black Album was horrible. I started listening to them when the black album came out (I was 11), so to me, it was pretty good.

Now that I listen back, I'd prefer the Master of Puppets/Justice era over black, but in any case, any of THOSE eras are much better than Load and beyond.

I'm curious as to what drives a band to completely change style and get the balls to say "this is a good idea. Fans might like this change." The people who listened to Metallica (in '91) aren't the kind who will so gladly accept the easy listening that was Load/Reload. Where's the metal? Where's the raw fuckin power that Metallica was known for? Are they just too old? Should they just quit before they make it even worse?

Fast forward to 2003 when they pick up the new bass player... ok, the dude is from Suicidal Tendencies, so things might take to an interesting direction. Anticipation builds up for the new album, then... hits fuckin rock bottom again.

A bit heavier and raw than Load/Reload, St. Anger was still BS. Listen to the lyrics, listen to the flow of the music and how the songs are put together... it's just not there. It's not them. And the age old questions arise: Where are the solos? What's up with the drums? Can they honestly listen to their past work and then listen to their current work and think they're making progress?

Don't they know they're getting like this? Do they even care?

What the hell happened to Metallica?

Has any other band that has been around this long changed in this manner - going from incredibly great to just "...what the FUCK?"

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kiwiman

Two words. Dave Mustaine.

trickyy

yeah, i agree....the black album was the end of their relevance.

the whole Napster thing further eroded their fanbase

as far as what happened to them, they can now be seen in the movie Some Kind of Monster.


i think Aerosmith is pretty gawdawful these days...i know they used to be better (maybe not great). they'll play Walk This Way anytime, anywhere.

SecretMethod70

You know, everyone's entitaled to their opinion of the music and all, but I just don't get people complaining about bands changing styles. IT'S *THEIR* MUSIC, NOT YOURS. Shocking that, over the course of 20 years, as the PEOPLE change, the music they produce may change. When they started, they were angry, cocky, young adults. Now they are people who have experienced tragedy, and also people who have experienced love and are married. That's bound to have an effect on what their creativity produces.

I'm all for choosing to like or dislike a particular group's music. But it really bugs me that any time a band makes a change in style, no matter WHAT the change is, it is perceived as "selling out." People change, and Metallica are people, not just some group of musical servants. Choose to like it, or choose to dislike it, but I don't think it says anything negative about the band itself.

Now, if you wanna talk about something that DOES say something negative about the band, let's look at the whole napster thing

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Speed_Gibson

what concerns me more a band changing their sound is godawful shitty mastering that FUBARs the final product. If Master of Puppets and And Justice for All had the same horrendous mastering as St. Anger then they would be nearly unlistenable for that reason alone despite whatever other differences in sound or style.

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Stompy

I didn't say change was bad! In fact, one of the first things I said was change could either be good OR bad.

For example, look at Nine Inch Nails. Each consecutive album released over the span of the past 10 years has been better than the one before it. In that case, change was for the better.

Metallica seem to have gone backwards. Instead of maturing as artists, the talent meter went from an all time high to... something on par to what any generic metal band out today can produce!

I'm not calling em sellouts, either. I just don't know wtf is going through their heads. If I had a band that was as big as Metallica, before anything, I'd write music and ask myself "Would fans enjoy this change?" Nothin wrong with pleasing your fans while writing great music. The problems arise when you get cocky and the ego inflated to the point where you think that no matter what's released, people will still like it.

Sure, it's their music, but imagine if Led Zeppelin carried on without John Bonham and went completely glam rock, creating a total mockery of the band's place in music. They'd be a joke! Because they stopped when they did, they held onto their legendary status.

Yeah, the music is theirs, but people are fans of them for a reason.

Fans of Metallica wanted raw metal songs that went somewhere, songs where the music itself was just WOW, not album after album of generic metal filler songs.

They're obviously capable of so much more, I just don't know why they aren't doing anything with it.

Perhaps it's sobriety. Usually things turn to shit once people decide to get sober.

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Redlemon

To get some of the old spirit back, try Beatallica .

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JohnnyRock

.Well, that is the total opposite of selling out, so you are on point there.

I've been a fan since I saw Metallica in a club in 1984. Has there music changed...yes. Is it as some people claim bad or weak or awful, etc. I don't think so and neither do the millions of CD buyers and concert goers.

It has changed and is a reflection of them now as guys in their late-30s and early 40s as opposed to a bunch of angry teenagers [BTW, find me any teenagers today with half the talent those guys had back in the day!]

As for the production of St. Anger that people keep bringing up...I and many non-tech guys who jus twant good, aggressive music don't care about how they do it...just that they keep doing it.

And as long as they do, I'll keep buying it [not downloading it--I agree with them on that point as I wouldn't want people using my talent for free] and going to see them.

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ForwardtoDeath

You make a good point Johnny Rock and to each their own, but the production value on St. Anger is so bad, that it is unlistenable to me, not from a tech standpoint but from a musical standpoint. Its as if Lars went up to the production engineer and told him, I want my drums to sound as shitty as possible, like im banging on trash cans.

Also, St. Anger's lyrics are incredibly bad and the music has gone from something that people are in awe of to a "nu-metal" sound similar to all the other bands that are out there today.

World's King

Lack of Booze.

Napster.

MTV.

Lars.

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Stompy

I could honestly care less about how good production on St. Anger was. Record it in a garage for all I care... look at Justice.. you can hardly hear the bass on that album, but it was damn good.

I'm concered with the quality and structure of songs. They'll take this melody that's... mediocre and should be a 3 minute song (or better yet, morphed into something that would no longer be mediocre), and transform it into a wannabe epic 7 minute thing just repeating the same 2 lines over and over. When they used to make long songs, they'd be ALL over the place. It would change tempo, melodies would change and the song would morph into something wild (like the song Master of Puppets, or most songs on Justice).

If you take the music for what it is, it's not HORRIBLE, but when you sit back and say "Ok, this is Metallica".. then something doesn't click right.

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roachboy

my suspicion is that they got trapped by their own commodity-self.

it happens to alot of bands--their earlier stuff tends to be better because they had more time to work on it, in conditions that are not determined by having a particular demographic they are playing to. a smart band has lots of backstock before they get a deal---they can then mix stuff from before they were big with newer things, so the pressure is less in producing what would appear to be a new album for the public. consistent sound is simple--remix the older tracks.

fact is that when you buy an album, you have no idea when or in what sequences the pieces were written.

problems start to arise for many bands when they run out of this backstock of material and have to produce new things for each record from scratch. particularly if there are contractual obligations that need to be met. and if livelihoods of alot of people are at stake in meeting them.

also i think that doing shows that require you to copy your records for long enough will suck the life out of almost anyone.
i do not understand why audiences go to shows to hear what they already know.
it reduces the musicians to copies of themselves.
i do not understand why seeing that is interesting.
particularly if the form is a rigid as that which metallica has worked for years.
what do you do in that case?
what do you do if you made metal and get tired of the form?
stop altogether?
go through a period of slow decline?

what would you do?

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Bobaphat

My guess would be 20 years of existance is what changed Metallica. I don't think any band has not evolved who have been around for the amount of time they have.

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ForwardtoDeath

Most bands evolve, but to use the term evolve with metallica would be indicative of a progression in their music. After ajfa and the black album they changed their sound, thats fine. While I wasnt a big fan of load and reload, they were not bad records. However, with St. Anger it seems like their music has regressed into being just really bad.

Derwood

Two words:

Bob Rock

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sixate

Funny, I was gonna say something along those lines, but in many more words. You summed it up very well.

I miss the angry alcoholics who hate the world and anything popular. Metallica's music up to ...And Justice for All is my favorite music of all time. Everything after that is all complete horsefucking shit, and I can't stand listening to it. The Wack album was the beginning of the end for Metallica.

GuttersnipeXL

Metallica is crusty now. When you get crusty, you tend to rock out much less. That's why you end up with something like St. Anger.

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Polyphobic

Crusty?

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kutulu

I still like the band but the music isn't as good as it used to be. I think they just got tired of playing thrash. If you listen to what they said around the Black Album, they grew tired of that style so they switched to a more compact style.

clavus

None of you have addressed the most obvious aspect of their change. They now look like male prostitutes. Their obsession with making hard-driving, excellent music was replaced by their need to purchase "fabulous" pants and wear "simply savage" hairstyles.

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Derwood

Well, not quite. St. Anger isn't exactly Michael Bolton. Much of the music on it may not be great, but you have to admit that it's the "hardest" sounding stuff they've done since "Justice"

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rev_skarekroe

They got older.

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Hat

They ran out of talent. Their creative pool has been exhausted. It happened to The Rolling Stones too. But like the Rolling Stones, I think people will eventually push the latter day releases under the rug and forget about them.

pan6467

Metallica's problem is, was and always will be that asshole jerk-off Lars Ulrich.

I'm sorry but I always got the feeling after the Black Album that James, Kirk and Jason were still trying to be relevant and true to their fans but Lars saw dollar signs in everything and ruined them (much the same way Gene Simmons ruined KISS).

When you see Lars with the Backstreet Kids, and he is always the most vocal about money and what not, you get the idea he calls the shots. If I were James and the band, and saw pictures of Lars with Boy band members, I'd fire him for ruining the band's image. If I were James and heard Lars talking about how the old music was relevant at the time but the band needs to reach more people and tone down a bit, I'd fire his ass. Because as with any band your original die hard fans are the ones you need most, because when you fall from the top, they are the ones still loyal. YOU DON'T SHIT ON YOUR FANS, and Lars loves to do just that.

It's easy to take control of a band when everyone else is trashed and out there. Ask Jagger, Axl or Simmons, how they took control and treated the other founding members as hired hands.

It's common in R&R, and every time it happens the band is ruined.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Cool music, great sound. Thanks for sharing, but now I have to go see them in Cleveland Aug. 7th. Have me interested in seeing what they are like live..

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Chingal0

That sir, is fucking funny. I couldn't agree more.

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WarriorBuddha

I just ignore them now and remember what great musicians they were back in the "Justice" days.

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cockmonger

If i ever created a band like metallica i would make a hit record, and secretly record two records that sound just like it...then as time goes on lets say ten years and people say "you suck" and "bring back the solos," and "for christ sake James, stop ruining the song by trying to sing" I drop those two classic albums you never knew about and call them brand new metallica. THEN call it quits. Just a thought.

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billys

I havent liked them since a long time ago, I guess the black albumn was the last thing of theirs I really loved...

But just today, a friend just played me this (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/...600818-3916420) to me today...

Made me see them in a whole new light

cockmonger

As far as the TRAGEDY goes...cliff burton died after Ride the lighting...they made two incredible (thier best) after that.

best albums in Metallica history
1. And Justice
2. Master
3. Ride
4. Kill 'em
5. Black
6. First 6 songs on Load skipping 2x4
The other cds arn't worth mentioning. sorry Altallica fans.

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ShaniFaye

I agree with #1 and 2 on cockmongers list....add garage days revisited and thats pretty much where it stops for me. I remember when I first heard them in 1987 I thought to myself...this is something so totally different, so totally IT....I loved that they didnt want to be MTV material (back when MTV actually played videos) I loved going to see their shows and coming home with a neck so sore from trying to keep up with "head banging" that I couldnt move my head for days. I loved their total essance of difference.

Then they started getting played on main stream radio and mtv and it all died for me

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KWSN

I just don't understand why metallica seem entirely incapable of even showing an inkling of their old style. parts of Master of Puppets bordered on neo-classical with the complexity of their structure, like what Stompy said. Now it's just.... shit. The entire song Frantic is written around a hook that should be scrapped. I don't understand how a band with talent like that can just simply, seemingly, forget how their songs were once written.

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Stompy

Hm, if I'm not mistaken, Master of Puppets was written with Burton, and he died afterward (before Justice). He's in all the song credits.

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Chingal0

If a band were to do that, then they would have had to known that they were going to turn to shit in the future. If that were the case, why even bother continuing the band?

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cockmonger

well every band knows that somewhere along the line they will lose fans and gain new ones...i guess my statement was to realease the album for the fans that got you off your ass in the beginning, that way you go out in a non-traditional way...whereas..."albums arn't selling, lets not make em anymore."

This whole thread inspired me to pick up my collection (which i havn't listened to in years (and put it on my iPOD). I still get goosebumps by the end part of To Live is to die...you know the part right before the violins when the slow part kicks in...and through the violins right past James' spoken word....it makes me want to shed a tear sometimes.

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Unright

*cough**cough* AC/DC *cough*

flamingpeach

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Lasereth

Thanks!

I absolutely love Metallica. They are my favorite band. They have a hundred songs that I am obsessed with. No other band even comes close if you ask me. One thing that really pisses me off is when people say Metallica "sold out" because they changed their sound. Give me a damn break, if Metallica DIDN'T change their sound the same damn people would complain about Metallica being mediocre. IGN's fanletter and response sums it up well:


Don't think I'm a new-age fanboy that likes S&M, Load, Reload, etc. only. My favorite Metallica albums are Master of Puppets, Ride the Lightning, and....ST. ANGER. Yes, I have to say that St. Anger is on my favorites list. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not, the fans kept bitching and moaning about Metallica not sounding hardcore enough since their Master of Puppets days, yet when St. Anger was released, everyone complained that it was TOO hardcore and too rough. Metallica didn't abandon their fans...their fans abandoned them. If a majority of the St. Anger haters would listen to the album through a few times I know they'd enjoy the music. Battery, Master of Puppets, Disposable Heroes, For Whom the Bell Tolls, Fade to Black, Frantic, Some Kind of Monster, St. Anger, Dirty Window, The Unnamed Feeling, and Purify are my all-time favorite Metallica songs. Notice something about them? They're all hardcore metal Metallica.

Exactly, and now people are complaining. Just give the album a damn listen! I hated St. Anger with a passion the first time I heard it. Now it's my favorite album containing my favorite Metallica songs ever. I play it whenever I can, even at work (I work at a YMCA Camp). Metallica hasn't lost their touch. They haven't sold-out. They aren't too old, and they haven't lost talent. They've returned to their hard as fuck metal rythms that made them famous and now their own fans are pissed. Maybe today's age is a bit too new for hardcore metal fans?

I personally love St. Anger. I consider it Metallica's best album, even better than my previous favorites (Master of Puppets and Ride the Lightning). I don't care if people single me out, because a bunch of my friends are beginning to agree with me. St. Anger isn't the type of album you can listen to once and love like the rest...but when you listen to it enough to pick out each part of each song and know exactly the feeling you're about to get, you remember precisely why Metallica is the greatest band in the world. Their music evokes emotions that none other can raise. Metallica is my favorite band and always will be. Rock on!

-Lasereth

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sixate

I was gonna make a long drawn out response until I read this part. Because anyone who thinks those songs are harder than Hit the lights, Whiplash, No Remorse, Seek And Destroy, Metal Militia, Am I Evil, Fight Fire With Fire, Trapped Under Ice, Creeping Death, Master of Puppets, Disposable Heroes, Leper Messiah, Damage Inc, Blackened, Shortest Straw, Harvester of Sorrow, or Dyers Eve is not worth arguing with because as far as I'm concerned they aren't a real Metallica fan who understands what they were about.

One last thing. The only reason St. Anger is their hardest stuff since Justice is because all the fucking pussy shit between isn't even harder than Godsmack.

Derwood

I guess that people have different opinions on what "hard" is, because I would agree that "Frantic" is a "harder" sounding song than "Leper Messiah". I didn't say better, however.

I consider St. Anger to be a pallette cleanser (at least I hope so) that gets Metallica back in the kick ass mood and sets them towards writing better music again. I still feel like they're doomed as long as they stick with Bob Rock, and that relationship isn't ending anytime soon (they consider him the 5th band member).

Anyone think Cliff Burton's influence was a bit underrated as far as the song writing went?

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