Higgis

Can anyone explain/Does anyone know how much is paid when a song is played on the radio ?

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vanblah

That is a very complicated system. It's based on how many times the song is played (ie. how popular the song is) and how much the radio station is worth. The song also has to be in "regular rotation" as opposed to a special slot such as "Locals Only."

To get your song in regular rotation is a nightmare of marketing, PR and MONEY. Payola isn't dead ... it's just called "Promotional Payment" now. But that's an entirely different topic.

Also, radio stations don't actually pay the artists. Artists (the musicians who played the songs) get paid through record sales (mechanicals).

But, radio stations DO pay the composers of those songs by way of a licensing organization (ASCAP, BMI etc.). A composer of a song may or may not be the musicans who played on the record. You have to be a member of one of the licensing orgs to get paid. It's also very important to maintain the publishing rights on your music. If you lose those rights then you don't get royalties on your music. A "slick" producer will come in and help you re-write your songs "to make them stronger" ... then s/he will take most of your publishing rights since they "helped write the song." Guard your publishing rights well.

It gives me a headache just thinking about it. It shouldn't be this complicated.

EDIT: One caveat, I'm NOT a lawyer. If you are at the point that you are going to collect royalties on music you have written then you ABSOLUTELY SHOULD GET A LAWYER.

Higgis

Thanks for that. Its about as clear as mud! Do they make it that complicated so that they get to keep most of the money from the artists?!

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Martian

No, they keep more money by making the artist pay for everything. If you're an artist, any cost the label has to cover (including the million dollars in that oh-so-sought-after 'million dollar contract') is essentially a loan to the artist. If you don't pay that money back, it comes out of your royalties. On top of that, you don't actually hold copyright to your songs. Until very recently, copyright reverted back to the songwriter after 35 years, but a change in the law means that the label will now hold the copyright forever. Fun, innit?

Something like 80% of artists never even make back their advance; the superhits get the rock star lifestyle and everyone else spends their lives in debt.

I've ranted on this subject before, but Alan Cross actually did a show on it and is much more articulate on the subject than I'm capable of being. The transcript is here, at the bottome of the list (Why Performers Hate Their Labels.)

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aberkok

Suddenly making a record out of your own pocket and having to do all the promo and marketing yourself doesn't seem so bad!

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vanblah

That's what I've done ... but the PR and marketing only goes so far. It costs several million dollars to break an artist in the top 10. Just to make it to the top 100 takes thousands of dollars.

Of course, I'd rather be a cult band than a Billboard top # artist.

In my opinion I've got a phenomenal CD but do you think very many people will ever hear it? The reviews of it have been stellar; both local and non-local. We're in regular rotation on local radio. The few industry people who have heard it are impressed and the first thing they ask is "are they touring?" The answer to that is "as much as possible."

Grassroots ...

As far as not owning the copyright on your music: that's just really bad contract negotiations. There are two copyrights that you have to be concerned with. The actual recording (this is form SR which is and should be owned by the studio since they did the recording) and the songs themselves ... which you should NEVER relenquish if possible (this is form PA). Form PA covers the music and lyrics; form SR covers the particular version of the CD. In other words, you can always go re-record the song yourself and then file another form SR. Of course, most studios have a clause that say that they get a percent if you do that.

READ YOUR CONTRACT AND HAVE A LAWYER LOOK AT IT!!!!

Fly

okay........what if.........


you are in control of your own studio?

all our stuff is done at our own studio.........of course we'll need a "final mix" as done by a "producer".....where does the artist stand in that respect?

should we avoid the producer and just mix it ourselves........do we save money that way?

would that be the way to go?

fuck the man.

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vanblah

Well, you can only fuck the man so far before he fucks you back.

If you control your own studio then you can submit the form SR. But again, this is not where the money is.

The money is in publishing ... form PA (basically). You'll need to set up a LEGITIMATE business called a Publishing House. It can be as simple as a DBA using your SSN. Register with a royalty house (ASCAP, BMI) as both a WRITER and a PUBLISHER. The royalty houses will only pay legitimate businesses and it makes it easier for them if you are registered as a publisher.

As far as getting your stuff on radio in REGULAR rotation ... you need PR and lots of it. You will have to PAY for this kind of PR ... usually. Sometimes, a band can achieve cult status and sort of achieve a name for themselves with little help from an agency. Ani DiFranco comes to mind ... but even she has a PR and marketing firm now.

Here's the deal: if you sell somewhere between 10,000 and 30,000 CDs (depending on the style of music you do) on your own then people will take notice. The labels will come knocking. But if you can sell 30,000 CDs on your own why do you need a label? 30,000 CDs at $10/per is $300,000 minus the cost to print them (and record). I could live happily ever after on that. With iTunes you don't even need the CDs.

If you can sell 30,000 CDs before getting in regular rotation why do you need radio play? Royalties paid by radio are shit. If you're selling that many CDs television and movie people will be knocking on your door. THAT'S where the real money comes in. Licensing to TV and Film. That's why you need to have your publishing in order.

If you sell 10,000 or more CDs you will need a lawyer. You will need someone to handle your PR rather than generate PR. You don't need the huge PR firms or the big-time lawyer at first. There are affordable people out there in EVERY city. You just have to find them. Most industry people are more approachable than you think. Just don't be a cheese-dick when you talk to them. You have to make them feel like you are really interested in THEM rather than just handing them a CD and saying "sign me." And by "make them feel" I mean really be genuine with it.

Another secret to all this is longevity. You have to be PAAAAAAATIENT. Remember Uncle Tupelo and then Wilco? Jeff Tweedy wasn't really all that popular until the last three or four years but he's been at it since 89. And remember this: when you make a fan they will usually buy your BACK CATALOG too. So if you have five CDs (from the last couple of years) and you make 2 new fans at a bar one night and they just absolutely LOVE what you do then you could potentially sell 10 CDs right there. That's the reason for recording so much ... but again, the real MONEy is in licensing deals not CD sales.

Do what you love doing which is MAKING MUSIC. Forget about everything else and just produce, produce, produce. Don't look for "angles" or get-rich-quick schemes. Think about how long it took for you just to be able to play an instrument or write a song; think about how much dedication you have given it. Don't lose site of why you play music in the first place.

But I'm rambling.

EDIT: I don't mean produce,produce,produce in the sense of being a producer. I mean create music ... I should have said "create, create, create."

Glory's Sun

IIRC, this is how O.A.R. got their start. I think they sold several hundred thousand cd's by themselves and then.. voila they went and signed with a major label.

Yeah, you're right, the producers make all the money. End of story.

Fly

right on vanblah........thank you very much for the insight.

i'll pass this on to my partners.


cheers man.

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SterlingStudios