Bible back in Texas schools! - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DEI37 · 04-30-2005, 08:15 AM

Here's the link: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7656551/

Here's the story:

Quote:

DALLAS - Students in a West Texas town will have the opportunity to take a class not offered in most public high schools — Bible studies.

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Tuesday night was not a usual Odessa school board meeting. There was full house, as more than 300 people rallied to voice their support for the proposed Bible class. Outside, the scene was more like a church service than a public meeting as supporters sang and prayed.

All but a few people who showed up at the meeting supported the measure, and in the end the Ector County School Board put its stamp of approval on the idea with a unanimous vote. The decision was met with a standing ovation and cheers.

Support with some debate
There appears to be broad support in the community for putting the Bible into the classroom. More than 6,000 residents signed a petition supporting the proposal, which was first brought to the board last month.

The decision did not come without some debate though. Floy Hinson, an Ector County School Board member, expressed concern the panel was acting too quickly.

“We approve the administration to review curriculums,” said Hinson. “I have no problem with that, but I do want that curriculum opened to the public.” In the end, though, Hinson voted to add the class.

Her thoughts on the speed with which the board acted also concerned Becki Smith, another Odessa resident. Smith was one of the few in the crowd who pushed for the board to approach the topic cautiously.

“I just think this is a very sensitive issue… it’s very divisive,” said Smith. “It could turn into a huge constitutional fight.”

Not unheard of in West Texas
That hasn’t been an issue in another West Texas town. In Big Spring, Texas, about 50 miles from Odessa, the public high school has offered elective Bible studies classes for more than six decades.

“In the 19 years of my employment with Big Spring Independent School District, I don’t remember any resistance or controversy at all with Bible curriculum being taught to our high school students,” said Big Spring High School Principal Mike Ritchey. “I hope Humanities will be offered for another 65 years,” he said referring to the Bible class.

Ritchey explained that the class is funded by a ministerial group made up of countywide ministers, pastors, and business leaders. The non-profit organization raises money to fund the salaries of the instructors teaching in the three schools in Howard County.

The other two high schools in the county that teach the Bible courses are Coahoma High School and Forsan High School. Currently, 90 students are enrolled in the class at Big Spring High School.

Bringing the bible back
The vote in Odessa will actually bring the Bible back into the school. Ector County last offered a class of this type 26 years ago. It will be at least a year before the elective makes its way into Odessa’s two high schools. The projected timeline for the first Bible class is August 2006, at the earliest.

Adela Vasquez, a spokeswoman for the Ector County School District, said that “District Subject Area Coordinators”(teachers and administrators) will be leading the effort in developing a non-devotional curriculum that focuses on academic areas. The Bible class will be taught as a history or literature course elective. The teaching plan will be made available for the public to see before it is put into practice in the classroom.

Vasquez also added that the class is likely to focus on the Bible’s impact on America’s founding fathers. It will also instruct on the influence of the Bible in art and culture. Geography of Middle Eastern countries could also be taught.

School officials in Odessa say the large turnout at the board meeting in support of the proposed class shows that this is something the community wants its young people to have the option of learning.

According to Elizabeth Ridenour with the National Council on Bible Curriculums in Public Schools over 1,100 public high schools in the United States currently use the councils’ developed curriculum for the study of the Bible at the high school level.

Discuss.

Personally, I think that this is great. We've kicked God out of so many areas of our lives that it's sad, really. For those of you that preach separation of church and state...this class is an elective. I think that it's wonderful that we realize that God has a real part of our lives, and should be included in it. Score one for the good guys. I sincerely hope that the rest of the nation follows suit. It'd be the best thing that ever happened to it.

raeanna74 · 04-30-2005, 08:28 AM

I find it interesting too that they aquire the funding for this particular class from Christian groups in the area. No one can say that the state has to pay for this at all. There is such a large Christian population in our country that it's reasonable to ask for such a class. Even for those who don't believe in Christianity it might be useful to take such a class to understand how their beliefs affect politics, business, and other areas in our country.

Strange Famous · 04-30-2005, 08:40 AM

Will they have Qu'ran classes?

TexanAvenger · 04-30-2005, 09:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

I think that it's wonderful that we realize that God has a real part of our lives, and should be included in it. Score one for the good guys. I sincerely hope that the rest of the nation follows suit. It'd be the best thing that ever happened to it.

Are you implying here that those of us who would have religion kept out of public school are the "bad guys?"

Personally, I don't have a problem with this class like this existing as long as it is kept both elective and as a historical document examination. While I do not believe in a god such as the Bible puts forth, I do not have a problem with other people doing so... so long as this class, or others like it in public schools, don't turn into classes teaching that there absolutely is a god. That is a set of lessons that should be reserved for places like Sunday school, not public.

tecoyah · 04-30-2005, 09:03 AM

I see no problem here.....more knowledge is generally a good thing...and I do not have to pay for it. That said, I would have issue if I had to foot the bill.Christianity is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, nor are the Bibles. Just dont let Pat Robertson teach the class.

tecoyah · 04-30-2005, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DEI37

Discuss.

Personally, I think that this is great. We've kicked God out of so many areas of our lives that it's sad, really. For those of you that preach separation of church and state...this class is an elective. I think that it's wonderful that we realize that God has a real part of our lives, and should be included in it. Score one for the good guys. I sincerely hope that the rest of the nation follows suit. It'd be the best thing that ever happened to it.

Oh....and thanx for the insult......

Strange Famous · 04-30-2005, 09:14 AM

I have no problem with school children studying religion, or religious texts. Or the perception of philosophy of the idea of god... but when you favour one version of God over another, and only teach that as if it was universal truth - I see this as an abuse, and as indoctrination.

If these kids are to be taught the beliefs of all major beliefs,,, and encouraged to find their own God their own way... thats fine. if they are taught the perspective of one specific Jewish cult as if it is absolute truth... I see this as deeply problematic.

Then again, I suppose it wouldnt hurt if a some Christian's were more aware of their religions Jewish childhood. If people want to follow a religion, it cannot hurt to be able to understand it a little better than some of the present religious leaders. I would assume it is without logic to teach the bible as a unified text, without looking at the break of Pauline Christianity from Judaism.

Sage · 04-30-2005, 09:47 AM

On the one hand, I want to say that this is a good thing, as long as they keep the Bible a purely historical document. However, since this is Texas, I know that it's not going to be that way. Besides, the students who are taking it will affect how it is taught, and what non-Christian teenager is going to take a Bible history class? But, I do realize that this is a step in the right direction. Perhaps someone will now take up the cause to have the Qu'ran, the Bahgivad-Gita, and other religious texts taught as history classes.

Astrocloud · 04-30-2005, 09:47 AM

I think that what you are suggesting Mr Famous is that a comparative religions class is somehow more favorable than studying ONE religion. I am inclined to agree -except that we are talking about west Texas here.

Any spin on other religions would only be to show that they are wrong.

DukeNukem4ever · 04-30-2005, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I see no problem here.....more knowledge is generally a good thing...and I do not have to pay for it. That said, I would have issue if I had to foot the bill.Christianity is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, nor are the Bibles. Just dont let Pat Robertson teach the class.

I would agree that knowledge RULES... and that there are extremes to both degrees of that knowledge just as "Strange Famous" posted.

Our schools and places of higher education SHOULD be impartial and offer all forms of knowledge... sadly this is not the case.

TexanAvenger · 04-30-2005, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sage

On the one hand, I want to say that this is a good thing, as long as they keep the Bible a purely historical document. However, since this is Texas, I know that it's not going to be that way.

Alright... I feel the need to stand up here on the off-chance that I'm right.

The fact that it's in Texas made me, at first, think, "This thing is doomed as an objective study." But it is entirely possible that the teachers teaching these classes could remain objective in the face of the outward pressure from the groups who would have the class become religious.

After all, not everybody in or from Texas is a Christian fanatic...

raeanna74 · 04-30-2005, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TexanAvenger

Are you implying here that those of us who would have religion kept out of public school are the "bad guys?"

I don't think he intended it as such. There have been a few instances where children praying on their own in class or bringing a Bible with them to school were disciplined because of it. In their cases they were doing "right" by their religion and not pushing it on others so the ones keeping them from it were viewed as "the bad guys". It's not fair in either instance to impose your beliefs on others and that has been the case in schools where Christians were not allowed to open exercise their faith. It's not consistant or across the board but of course people are going to hear about the injustices because of what they are.

TrevDigital · 04-30-2005, 02:37 PM

WHAT is wrong with bibles being in churches and scientific text books being in schools? If the bible is such a compelling, perfect, true work that will enlighten people, why isnt it able to do its job from its place in the church? Why must human beings creep it into the schools?

sailor · 04-30-2005, 02:45 PM

I dont see this as a bad thing. While Im all for the seperation of church and state, and am not religious myself, its an elective and isnt being paid for by taxpayers, so have at it.

arch13 · 04-30-2005, 02:59 PM

I see two problems with this.

First off, depending on the size of the school, there may be little option but to take the class.
We can say "peer pressure" or "social pressure" is not a problem all we want, but if 80% of the parents at a school of say 150 students register their children for the class, let me tell you, there will be pressure excerted between students. Kids are just naturally mean spirtited towards one another.

Second, there is no elective studying other religions. I find this humourus becuase if a well known Koran scholar stepped in in say, Chicago which has a fairly good sized muslim population, and offered to pay for an elective teaching the Koran in school...

...Well, lets not lie to ourseles. It's the same people who pushed for this that would scream bloody murder.
I see no inherant problem with the class, and have no problem with religion.

So I guess my issue here is simple. There isn't going to be another class focusing on another religion, and I have little hope that this class will in any way analyze christianity criticaly.

snowy · 04-30-2005, 03:56 PM

I would prefer a comparative religions class but I do support the Bible being taught in school as a work of literature or a historical document. It's really frustrating to me as an English major to have to explain allusions made to the Bible to my atheist friends or others who have never taken the time to even familiarize themselves with it. So many references in Western culture come back to the Bible and everyone should at least have the opportunity to familiarize themselves with it.

Having taken classes in which the Bible was presented as literature, I can honestly say that it is completely possible to leave the topic of religion out of it. However, I wish them luck in Odessa.

Charlatan · 04-30-2005, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

I would prefer a comparative religions class but I do support the Bible being taught in school as a work of literature or a historical document. It's really frustrating to me as an English major to have to explain allusions made to the Bible to my atheist friends or others who have never taken the time to even familiarize themselves with it. So many references in Western culture come back to the Bible and everyone should at least have the opportunity to familiarize themselves with it.

Having taken classes in which the Bible was presented as literature, I can honestly say that it is completely possible to leave the topic of religion out of it. However, I wish them luck in Odessa.

I just don't think this is the way it will play out... I just don't see why a public school should have a class like this... Comparitive religion or philosophy would be a good thing but I feel this is just an excuse to bring creationism and prayer into the public school system...

Using the analogy put forth by DEI37... that is a win for the bad guys.

Glava · 05-01-2005, 01:13 AM

I don't understand how an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being could be kept out of anything.

A comparative religions class, like Charlatan suggested, would be good. A Bible class is just a way for the Bible to sneak into public schools.

Quote:

Originally Posted by tecoyah

I see no problem here.....more knowledge is generally a good thing...and I do not have to pay for it. That said, I would have issue if I had to foot the bill.Christianity is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, nor are the Bibles. Just dont let Pat Robertson teach the class.

If you pay federal taxes in the United States, you are probably partially paying for it. The federal government allocates a good part of its budget to transfer to individual states (more so to the poorer southern states, like Texas) and education is probably the main use of these transfers.

raeanna74 · 05-01-2005, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glava

If you pay federal taxes in the United States, you are probably partially paying for it. The federal government allocates a good part of its budget to transfer to individual states (more so to the poorer southern states, like Texas) and education is probably the main use of these transfers.

A they said in the article "the class is funded by a ministerial group made up of countywide ministers, pastors, and business leaders. The non-profit organization raises money to fund the salaries of the instructors teaching in the three schools in Howard County."

Mbwuto · 05-01-2005, 11:03 AM

I happen to live in Midland, fifteen miles from Odessa. Midland is also entertaining the exact same idea.

First, off here's a local article.

http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/news...d=475621&rfi=6

Second, Odessa has two high schools with about two thousand students each.

Third. World religion classes have been offered here in Midland before, which is actually a bit more conservative than Odessa. I imagine they've had the same. Also had philosophy classes in both schools. Also there was a student drivin initiative to have a bible class several years ago when I was still in school.

Glava · 05-01-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

A they said in the article "the class is funded by a ministerial group made up of countywide ministers, pastors, and business leaders. The non-profit organization raises money to fund the salaries of the instructors teaching in the three schools in Howard County."

I suppose I should RTFA more attentively. However, the facilities are still publically-funded, so my argument applies.

Mbwuto · 05-01-2005, 12:38 PM

A bit more ground-zero style information

http://www.oaoa.com/news/nw041705d.htm

For those not into reading here are the prime sections.

" “These people want to teach the Bible’s influence on literature, which means they are not considering the Bible as literature,” Newman said. “It’s the way the course is designed that would lead me to think it is an advocacy course.”
Elizabeth Ridenour of North Carolina, NCBCPS founder and president, said the coursework is in no way indoctrinating.

“Teachers are not to give any denominational viewpoints,” Ridenour said. “We have not had a complaint.”

Ridenour said the NCBCPS course has been adopted in 296 school districts in the United States, including some in Texas, like the Brady school district.
Tracy Kiesling of Brady, taught the NCBCPS course at Brady High School for a couple of years, but now works to promote the Bible course.
“We’re not about teaching religion — it’s not a place to proselytize,” Kiesling said. “Our focus is to make children aware of how the Bible is a part of our history. How it played in the founding of our nation.”
Kiesling said that 96 percent of U.S. documents are based indirectly (in principle) or directly on Scripture."

"Ridenour said she faces criticism from organizations like the People For the American Way and the American Civil Liberties Union because they don’t want the mention of God in any public forum.
Harvey Madison, with the ACLU in Lubbock, said he is keeping an eye on ECISD’s situation.
“Our experience is that while theoretically a Bible class is possible, it’s almost impossible to pull off,” Madison said.
He said the NCBCPS is using deceptive terms to make it sound as if the ACLU dislikes religion."

"Meagan Matthews, a senior and member of a non-denominational church in Big Spring, said Welsh doesn’t talk about religion. “I’ve even had friends that are not Christians that take this class, and they don’t feel imposed upon,” Matthews said.
Welsh has taught the class for six years. His salary is paid in part by the Howard County Bible Board, a nonprofit group that funds the Bible classes taught in Big Spring, Forsan and Coahoma. Welsh teaches three Bible classes a day in Big Spring."

"Forsan schools dropped the class after one teacher got a little preachy with students, Janca said.
Only recently, the class has been reinstated.

And, at one time the Bible class was administered by the Howard County Ministerial Alliance, however, many ministers didn’t want to be involved in it anymore, he said."

chickentribs · 05-02-2005, 11:40 PM

The class is in a public school, funded by public money. Just because a church pays for the bibles and someone to interpret their particular sect's ideas does not remove the church/state issue. My tax dollars are being spent to teach that Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and scientists will burn in hell. Gay students are sinners. Birth control is a sin and God doesn't believe in evolution.

You are essentially building a Christian church in the school. Does a "C" land you in purgatory?

TroutKind · 05-05-2005, 08:41 PM

Don't mess with Texas!

Master_Shake · 05-06-2005, 06:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DukeNukem4ever

I would agree that knowledge RULES...

Except that religion doesn't impart knowledge, it imparts faith or belief or some other such nonsense.

How about spending time improving math and science scores instead of learning about invisible men and the philosophy of hippies 2000 years ago? Knowing all about religion isn't going to restore this country's technological base. How the hell will learning about myth help somebody get a job if they can't add or operate a computer? Let's set some priorities.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...rnalid=related

Lebell · 05-06-2005, 07:14 AM

Interesting development, but I cannot support it.

I am all for informing children about religion in order to increase their knowledge, but I think it is properly done by a comparative religion class as opposed to one devoted to ANY one religion.

And the public will indeed pay for at least some of the class since it will be held on school property and during school operating hours.

buckruss · 05-06-2005, 08:51 AM

Personaly I believe this a great elective to offer at a public school. After doing some research on what the course is about and how it is supposed to be taught I feel comfortable allowing the students to make the choice. The student will have the option of taken a similar course in college, which most are also govt funded.

It is nice to start seeing the wants of the many to start outweighing the complaints of the few.

If other religions wanted to support a similar class, they have the same options open to them. Nobody is saying this is a religious class, but a historical one. It just contains the dreaded words 'Bible and God' in this over PC world we live in now.

So for those of your argueing about a small part of the funds coming from the public, what are your views on school vouchers? With parent being able to pull their child from the public school and placing them in a religious school at your expense.

hrandani · 05-06-2005, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glava

If you pay federal taxes in the United States, you are probably partially paying for it. The federal government allocates a good part of its budget to transfer to individual states (more so to the poorer southern states, like Texas) and education is probably the main use of these transfers.

Nobody in Odessa is going to take a world religion course on the Koran or any other religious texts.

Moreover, nobody could teach it well. I don't have a problem with some Christians teaching other Christians Bible if they want to.

That's the problem with schools, the teachers.

Personally, I'm a Nader liberal and a Texas native, and what you said about Texas being a poor southern state is ridiculously off the mark. Sure, in some areas the inhabitants might be, but the state itself is not poor.

Gilda · 05-08-2005, 12:24 AM

Why does this need to be in a public school at all?

Where I live, bible study courses are offered for free at dozens of places all around the city.

What really disturbs me about this is that it's a study course specific to one particular religion, and it's the religion that is predominant in that area. An understanding of Christianity is essential for understand our country and it's place in the world, but so is an understanding of the other world major religions.

My social studies class includes a review of the major religions of the world, giving each of them equal weight. A specific course dedicated to studying religions is an excellent idea. I can't see how a course dedicated to one religion, promoted and funded by members of that religion, and attended primarily by practitioners of that religion isn't at least implicitly promoting that religion.

Also, the class occurs on school property, tax dollars are supporting it. If it's going to be funded, and the teachers supplied by, Christian organizations, why not have the classes off site, at, say, churches, the way they are now?

Include the bible or at least bible stories as part of a literature or history class or comparative religion class, sure I'm in favor of that. We should learn about ourselves and about others. This class seems insular to me, which is a bad thing.

MSD · 05-08-2005, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glava

I don't understand how an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent being could be kept out of anything.

It's very easy if you are undecided about, or flat out don't believe in, the existance of this being. A theist's "truth" is an atheist's lie, and an atheist's "truth" is a theist's heresy. Meanwhile the agnostics look on and shake their heads at both sides for being so closed-minded (although they're usually the most vocal and stubborn of all.)

spincycle0 · 05-08-2005, 09:18 PM

Constitutionally, if they provide equal access to classrooms for other privately funded religious studies, then this will stand. However, if the muslims kids (assuming there are any in the shithole that is odessa) want to pay for and start a class, and the school wont give them a room to do it in, then the school is violating the establishment clause, as well as probable equal protection concerns.

captanhero · 05-09-2005, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

It's very easy if you are undecided about, or flat out don't believe in, the existance of this being. A theist's "truth" is an atheist's lie, and an atheist's "truth" is a theist's heresy. Meanwhile the agnostics look on and shake their heads at both sides for being so closed-minded (although they're usually the most vocal and stubborn of all.)

I think, and I may be wrong, that the point being made is that it is difficult to distinguish analysis from advocacy of a religion based fundamentally on an all-powerful entity. I can see a situation where the teacher tells the class, "You don't have to follow this religion, but those who do, believe that a righteous life will get you into heaven, and sinning will land you in firey damnation for all eternity." However, I do think that teaching this class in a public school environment at least offers the possibility for an objective analysis to be presented to the students, as opposed to the same class in a church setting, which would be devoid of objectivity.

spindles · 05-09-2005, 11:14 PM

I really don't see how you could do this objectively, without it ending up a "preachfest".

I also think this would be a difficult class (going on what I perceive to be the course outline) to assess - what is worth an "A" in this class? In most essay subjects, if you can argue your point of view based on the assigned text, then you get goos marks - there would be a real need to section yourself (as a teacher) away from the religion part of this to be able to mark this kind of work accordingly.

Val_1 · 05-10-2005, 05:09 PM

I don't see a problem with this class as long as it's an elective and is taught objectively (in a manner that a believe or non-believer could do well in the class). It would be great if they also offered classes in other religions. A little more understanding can always be a benefit.

robbdn · 05-10-2005, 05:23 PM

I find it interesting that this is sparking so much interest, simply because it's nothing new. Public schools have been offering courses in Mormon doctrine for as long as I remember, and while the teachers are provided by the LDS church and they are done outside of normal school hours, they have been using school facilities for this purpose (studying bible, book of mormon, from an "academic" perspective). If one wishes to get into BYU or other LDS universities, these classes are a requirement. It has been this way for years.

chickentribs · 05-11-2005, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robbdn

and while the teachers are provided by the LDS church and they are done outside of normal school hours, they have been using school facilities for this purpose (studying bible, book of mormon, from an "academic" perspective). If one wishes to get into BYU or other LDS universities, these classes are a requirement. It has been this way for years.

But I think the school hours and teachers are exactly the big issue, robbdn. My school's facilities were rented out and available to a number of different organizations after hours also. Boy Scouts, AA, church groups, etc. - but it was just a facility for rent. The local Bowling League did not have the option of setting up shop and teaching students how to throw strikes, regardless of how important that may be to them.

What happens in that school affects all of the children, and undermining the value system of Muslim, Hindu, Agnostic, Aetheist, Gay, Jewish, etc. children by having a state supported religion is selfish and seperatist.

If the "devout" are so wrapped up in religion as the cornerstone of their morality, why are they in such a hurry to push the responsibility for your children's souls to the government? Public schools can't teach our kids to read past a 7th grade level at this point, but we should expect they could effectively handle teaching the complicated ideas of right and wrong? Sin vs. salvation?? Frankly, the idea of somebody treating my family's spirituality like it was Social Studies 102 would offend me. Work on teaching the friggin' basics to my kids and let me handle the questions about Jesus and wars. Those people must have a lot trust in their school principal!

Hardknock · 05-15-2005, 12:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by raeanna74

I find it interesting too that they aquire the funding for this particular class from Christian groups in the area. No one can say that the state has to pay for this at all. There is such a large Christian population in our country that it's reasonable to ask for such a class. Even for those who don't believe in Christianity it might be useful to take such a class to understand how their beliefs affect politics, business, and other areas in our country.

Why should they be forced to take such a class? I don't how large the population is, separation of church and state exists for a reason. How would you teach such a class without alienating anyone who doesn't happen to be a christian?

DukeNukem4ever · 05-27-2005, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Master_Shake

Except that religion doesn't impart knowledge, it imparts faith or belief or some other such nonsense.

How about spending time improving math and science scores instead of learning about invisible men and the philosophy of hippies 2000 years ago? Knowing all about religion isn't going to restore this country's technological base. How the hell will learning about myth help somebody get a job if they can't add or operate a computer? Let's set some priorities.

http://www.time.com/time/archive/pre...rnalid=related

"Master_Shake"

The link you posted was of no supprise to me as the public school system is broken.
If they were to test as you call them "religious schools" or even private schools they would find a very different result as everyting I've read would suggest the scores would drastically higher... if not better then those in the comparison study.

Seriously, you should try develop your obvious anger into something a little more constructive.

Cheers,

clavus · 05-27-2005, 03:16 PM

...and this post is in Tilted Living instead of Politics or General Discussion why?

04-30-2005, 08:28 AM	#2 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I find it interesting too that they aquire the funding for this particular class from Christian groups in the area. No one can say that the state has to pay for this at all. There is such a large Christian population in our country that it's reasonable to ask for such a class. Even for those who don't believe in Christianity it might be useful to take such a class to understand how their beliefs affect politics, business, and other areas in our country. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

04-30-2005, 08:40 AM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Will they have Qu'ran classes? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-30-2005, 09:03 AM	#5 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I see no problem here.....more knowledge is generally a good thing...and I do not have to pay for it. That said, I would have issue if I had to foot the bill.Christianity is not, in and of itself, a bad thing, nor are the Bibles. Just dont let Pat Robertson teach the class. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

04-30-2005, 09:14 AM	#7 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I have no problem with school children studying religion, or religious texts. Or the perception of philosophy of the idea of god... but when you favour one version of God over another, and only teach that as if it was universal truth - I see this as an abuse, and as indoctrination. If these kids are to be taught the beliefs of all major beliefs,,, and encouraged to find their own God their own way... thats fine. if they are taught the perspective of one specific Jewish cult as if it is absolute truth... I see this as deeply problematic. Then again, I suppose it wouldnt hurt if a some Christian's were more aware of their religions Jewish childhood. If people want to follow a religion, it cannot hurt to be able to understand it a little better than some of the present religious leaders. I would assume it is without logic to teach the bible as a unified text, without looking at the break of Pauline Christianity from Judaism. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

04-30-2005, 09:47 AM	#8 (permalink)
Sage hoarding all the big girl panties since 2005 Location: North side	On the one hand, I want to say that this is a good thing, as long as they keep the Bible a purely historical document. However, since this is Texas, I know that it's not going to be that way. Besides, the students who are taking it will affect how it is taught, and what non-Christian teenager is going to take a Bible history class? But, I do realize that this is a step in the right direction. Perhaps someone will now take up the cause to have the Qu'ran, the Bahgivad-Gita, and other religious texts taught as history classes. __________________ Sage knows our mythic history, King Arthur's and Sir Caradoc's She answers hard acrostics, has a pretty taste for paradox She quotes in elegiacs all the crimes of Heliogabalus In conics she can floor peculiarities parabolous -C'hi

04-30-2005, 09:47 AM	#9 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	I think that what you are suggesting Mr Famous is that a comparative religions class is somehow more favorable than studying ONE religion. I am inclined to agree -except that we are talking about west Texas here. Any spin on other religions would only be to show that they are wrong.

04-30-2005, 02:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
TrevDigital Upright	WHAT is wrong with bibles being in churches and scientific text books being in schools? If the bible is such a compelling, perfect, true work that will enlighten people, why isnt it able to do its job from its place in the church? Why must human beings creep it into the schools?

04-30-2005, 02:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
sailor beauty in the breakdown Location: Chapel Hill, NC	I dont see this as a bad thing. While Im all for the seperation of church and state, and am not religious myself, its an elective and isnt being paid for by taxpayers, so have at it. __________________ "Good people do not need laws to tell them to act responsibly, while bad people will find a way around the laws." --Plato

04-30-2005, 02:59 PM	#15 (permalink)
arch13 Loves my girl in thongs Location: North of Mexico, South of Canada	I see two problems with this. First off, depending on the size of the school, there may be little option but to take the class. We can say "peer pressure" or "social pressure" is not a problem all we want, but if 80% of the parents at a school of say 150 students register their children for the class, let me tell you, there will be pressure excerted between students. Kids are just naturally mean spirtited towards one another. Second, there is no elective studying other religions. I find this humourus becuase if a well known Koran scholar stepped in in say, Chicago which has a fairly good sized muslim population, and offered to pay for an elective teaching the Koran in school... ...Well, lets not lie to ourseles. It's the same people who pushed for this that would scream bloody murder. I see no inherant problem with the class, and have no problem with religion. So I guess my issue here is simple. There isn't going to be another class focusing on another religion, and I have little hope that this class will in any way analyze christianity criticaly. __________________ Seen on an employer evaluation: "The wheel is turning but the hamsters dead" ____________________________ Is arch13 really a porn diety ? find out after the film at 11. -Nanofever

04-30-2005, 03:56 PM	#16 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I would prefer a comparative religions class but I do support the Bible being taught in school as a work of literature or a historical document. It's really frustrating to me as an English major to have to explain allusions made to the Bible to my atheist friends or others who have never taken the time to even familiarize themselves with it. So many references in Western culture come back to the Bible and everyone should at least have the opportunity to familiarize themselves with it. Having taken classes in which the Bible was presented as literature, I can honestly say that it is completely possible to leave the topic of religion out of it. However, I wish them luck in Odessa. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

05-01-2005, 11:03 AM	#20 (permalink)
Mbwuto Crazy	I happen to live in Midland, fifteen miles from Odessa. Midland is also entertaining the exact same idea. First, off here's a local article. http://www.mywesttexas.com/site/news...d=475621&rfi=6 Second, Odessa has two high schools with about two thousand students each. Third. World religion classes have been offered here in Midland before, which is actually a bit more conservative than Odessa. I imagine they've had the same. Also had philosophy classes in both schools. Also there was a student drivin initiative to have a bible class several years ago when I was still in school. __________________ - people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent. George Orwell

05-01-2005, 12:38 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mbwuto Crazy	A bit more ground-zero style information http://www.oaoa.com/news/nw041705d.htm For those not into reading here are the prime sections. " “These people want to teach the Bible’s influence on literature, which means they are not considering the Bible as literature,” Newman said. “It’s the way the course is designed that would lead me to think it is an advocacy course.” Elizabeth Ridenour of North Carolina, NCBCPS founder and president, said the coursework is in no way indoctrinating. “Teachers are not to give any denominational viewpoints,” Ridenour said. “We have not had a complaint.” Ridenour said the NCBCPS course has been adopted in 296 school districts in the United States, including some in Texas, like the Brady school district. Tracy Kiesling of Brady, taught the NCBCPS course at Brady High School for a couple of years, but now works to promote the Bible course. “We’re not about teaching religion — it’s not a place to proselytize,” Kiesling said. “Our focus is to make children aware of how the Bible is a part of our history. How it played in the founding of our nation.” Kiesling said that 96 percent of U.S. documents are based indirectly (in principle) or directly on Scripture." "Ridenour said she faces criticism from organizations like the People For the American Way and the American Civil Liberties Union because they don’t want the mention of God in any public forum. Harvey Madison, with the ACLU in Lubbock, said he is keeping an eye on ECISD’s situation. “Our experience is that while theoretically a Bible class is possible, it’s almost impossible to pull off,” Madison said. He said the NCBCPS is using deceptive terms to make it sound as if the ACLU dislikes religion." "Meagan Matthews, a senior and member of a non-denominational church in Big Spring, said Welsh doesn’t talk about religion. “I’ve even had friends that are not Christians that take this class, and they don’t feel imposed upon,” Matthews said. Welsh has taught the class for six years. His salary is paid in part by the Howard County Bible Board, a nonprofit group that funds the Bible classes taught in Big Spring, Forsan and Coahoma. Welsh teaches three Bible classes a day in Big Spring." "Forsan schools dropped the class after one teacher got a little preachy with students, Janca said. Only recently, the class has been reinstated. And, at one time the Bible class was administered by the Howard County Ministerial Alliance, however, many ministers didn’t want to be involved in it anymore, he said." __________________ - people who have fallen into solitary, half-mad grooves of life and given up trying to be normal or decent. George Orwell Last edited by Mbwuto; 05-01-2005 at 12:41 PM..

05-02-2005, 11:40 PM	#23 (permalink)
chickentribs Addict Location: Mansion by day/Secret Lair by night	The class is in a public school, funded by public money. Just because a church pays for the bibles and someone to interpret their particular sect's ideas does not remove the church/state issue. My tax dollars are being spent to teach that Hindus, Muslims, Jews, and scientists will burn in hell. Gay students are sinners. Birth control is a sin and God doesn't believe in evolution. You are essentially building a Christian church in the school. Does a "C" land you in purgatory? __________________ Oft expectation fails... and most oft there Where most it promises - Shakespeare, W.

05-05-2005, 08:41 PM	#24 (permalink)
TroutKind Tilted Location: Washington	Don't mess with Texas!

05-06-2005, 07:14 AM	#26 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Interesting development, but I cannot support it. I am all for informing children about religion in order to increase their knowledge, but I think it is properly done by a comparative religion class as opposed to one devoted to ANY one religion. And the public will indeed pay for at least some of the class since it will be held on school property and during school operating hours. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

05-06-2005, 08:51 AM	#27 (permalink)
buckruss Upright	Personaly I believe this a great elective to offer at a public school. After doing some research on what the course is about and how it is supposed to be taught I feel comfortable allowing the students to make the choice. The student will have the option of taken a similar course in college, which most are also govt funded. It is nice to start seeing the wants of the many to start outweighing the complaints of the few. If other religions wanted to support a similar class, they have the same options open to them. Nobody is saying this is a religious class, but a historical one. It just contains the dreaded words 'Bible and God' in this over PC world we live in now. So for those of your argueing about a small part of the funds coming from the public, what are your views on school vouchers? With parent being able to pull their child from the public school and placing them in a religious school at your expense.

05-08-2005, 12:24 AM	#29 (permalink)
Gilda 32 flavors and then some Location: Out on a wire.	Why does this need to be in a public school at all? Where I live, bible study courses are offered for free at dozens of places all around the city. What really disturbs me about this is that it's a study course specific to one particular religion, and it's the religion that is predominant in that area. An understanding of Christianity is essential for understand our country and it's place in the world, but so is an understanding of the other world major religions. My social studies class includes a review of the major religions of the world, giving each of them equal weight. A specific course dedicated to studying religions is an excellent idea. I can't see how a course dedicated to one religion, promoted and funded by members of that religion, and attended primarily by practitioners of that religion isn't at least implicitly promoting that religion. Also, the class occurs on school property, tax dollars are supporting it. If it's going to be funded, and the teachers supplied by, Christian organizations, why not have the classes off site, at, say, churches, the way they are now? Include the bible or at least bible stories as part of a literature or history class or comparative religion class, sure I'm in favor of that. We should learn about ourselves and about others. This class seems insular to me, which is a bad thing. __________________ I'm against ending blackness. I believe that everyone has a right to be black, it's a choice, and I support that. ~Steven Colbert Last edited by Gilda; 05-08-2005 at 01:04 AM.. Reason: Rudundancy fixed, repaired, edited, and deleted.

05-08-2005, 09:18 PM	#31 (permalink)
spincycle0 Upright	Constitutionally, if they provide equal access to classrooms for other privately funded religious studies, then this will stand. However, if the muslims kids (assuming there are any in the shithole that is odessa) want to pay for and start a class, and the school wont give them a room to do it in, then the school is violating the establishment clause, as well as probable equal protection concerns.

05-09-2005, 11:14 PM	#33 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	I really don't see how you could do this objectively, without it ending up a "preachfest". I also think this would be a difficult class (going on what I perceive to be the course outline) to assess - what is worth an "A" in this class? In most essay subjects, if you can argue your point of view based on the assigned text, then you get goos marks - there would be a real need to section yourself (as a teacher) away from the religion part of this to be able to mark this kind of work accordingly. __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

05-10-2005, 05:09 PM	#34 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	I don't see a problem with this class as long as it's an elective and is taught objectively (in a manner that a believe or non-believer could do well in the class). It would be great if they also offered classes in other religions. A little more understanding can always be a benefit. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

05-10-2005, 05:23 PM	#35 (permalink)
robbdn Crazy	I find it interesting that this is sparking so much interest, simply because it's nothing new. Public schools have been offering courses in Mormon doctrine for as long as I remember, and while the teachers are provided by the LDS church and they are done outside of normal school hours, they have been using school facilities for this purpose (studying bible, book of mormon, from an "academic" perspective). If one wishes to get into BYU or other LDS universities, these classes are a requirement. It has been this way for years. __________________ I'm swimming in the digital residue of a media-drenched world. It's too cold.

05-27-2005, 03:16 PM	#39 (permalink)
clavus pow! Location: NorCal	...and this post is in Tilted Living instead of Politics or General Discussion why? __________________ Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.