Pyramid Schemes - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

almostaugust · 04-04-2005, 07:43 PM

What do you think of these? A guy at work is trying to rope me into this amway related one. He assures me that everyone involved is swimming in money.
What are your experiences with these? Thanks.

spindles · 04-04-2005, 08:18 PM

My brother got sucked into Amway when he was younger. He said there is no surer way of making sure your friends NEVER call you.

In theory, if you get in high enough up the pyramid, you should make tonnes of money, but the average joe in the street doesn't often end up at the top.

Also, you would have to work pretty hard to get people below you signing up more people, so that you benefit...

almostaugust · 04-04-2005, 11:25 PM

Hi spindles,
Thanks for your view. Yeah, i get that kind of vibe from the whole set up. Im sure its good money for the guy at the top of the pyramid. It seems kind of low to try and make all your friends your customers if they arnt willing. I guess they would see them as thier work partners though hey.

nofnway · 04-04-2005, 11:54 PM

I'm not defending or rejecting Amway...You can form your own opinion there but it is not a pyramid scheme...rather multilevel marketing, in that all money (commision...bonuses....whatever) flows from the sale of products not the "Initiation fees" of new recruits. Just like conventional marketing and sales...the more the volume of sales the greater the profits..total dollars earned even on shrinking margins.

Many businesses are marketed this way...Some more ethical than others. MLM however is not an illegitimate form of business. It works well for many people, some of whom I know personally, I however am not right for it.

Here is an interesting link on the subject.

http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm

Randerolf · 04-05-2005, 10:50 PM

I was just reading an article on pyramid schemes . I've know people who got involved in such organizations and lost money.

My father once said, "Ain't nothin' easy" and making money is no exception.

liquidlight · 04-05-2005, 11:00 PM

My dad was involved in every MLM that you can imagine, and not a damned one of them ever worked, and we were broke as hell because of it. . . the theory is wonderful, the reality is far from it.

I usually sum it up with something like, if this program was so great and successful, why is this guy still working a day job?

04-06-2005, 04:37 AM

They are all scams - pure and simple. Even the so-called legitimate ones that use complicated techniques to disguise themselves from the law - all scams.

If you want to make money, get a job, run a business, or start your own pyramid scam, but try not to become somebody else's victim.

Please.

d*d · 04-06-2005, 05:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by almostaugust

He assures me that everyone involved is swimming in money.

of course he does, he's hardly likely to say I'm losing all my money but might make some back if I can rope you in. There is no such thing as a get rich quick scheme, the same way as there is no such thing as no loss gambling method. don't get sucked in to it.

Now what I offer is a simple investment plan, send me £1000 and I will show you how to use internet forums as a way to get people to send you £1000, of course i will be taking a small percentage.........

MoJoPokeyBlue · 04-06-2005, 07:33 AM

Amway has some good products, but I never really like their whole marketing scheme. I remember reading in Money magazine about 5 years ago that less than 1% of the people in Amway make more than $15,000 a year.

MoJo

robot_parade · 04-08-2005, 05:24 PM

Personally, I can kind of see MLM things working for you if:

a) The upfront cost is low.
b) You're selling a product you give a damn about
c) You keep business and pleasure separate!
d) Never invest more than you can afford to lose.

My ex-wife badgered me into attending some amway meetings, and I saw a lot of people expecting to make a lot of money, but not a lot of people making a lot of money. Except for the 'regional director', or whatever. But think of how many chumps attend how many meetings and badger how many of their friends to trickle all that money up the chain to the people nearer the top!

My (current) wife tried Mary Kay, which she lots some money on (you don't *have* to buy from them up front, but it was strongly suggested that doing so was the only way to do it).

Then she tried Party Lite (candles), which worked out a little better - there was a much smaller up-front investment ($100?) that was pretty much paid for by the first party she did, and she made a couple of hundred more. She held the parties with most of her friends, but never got too many 'leads' from there, and it kind of trickled out. Maybe it would've worked out better if she were more willing to call pretty much total strangers and convince them to invite their friends to a 'party'.

Women also seem to have more of a hook on this sort of thing - I'm not sure what most guys would sell this way - power tools? Porn?

Wait...just...a...second...

Hrm, I think I need to go write up a business plan! :-)

Anyway, personally I got much less of a 'MLM', sign-people-up feel from partylite than the other two...and there was an actual focus on a product, unlike amway. With amway I always felt that the product was...amway. The other stuff was pretty much incidental. MK was a bit better, but there was still the up-front investment, and the 'sign people up' pressure.

Hrm. Hope that didn't sound like a product endorsement, just my impression of the three that I've had experience with.

d3cemberist · 04-08-2005, 05:41 PM

If I was you, I would stay far far away from it. You will get sucked into it and eventually get fucked.

Cynthetiq · 04-08-2005, 07:27 PM

The only thing that I ever benefited from Amway was the ability to have access to some very good books and business minded people. I accepted being in Amway as a supplement to business building but not as a way of "getting rich". I did not buy any products as if you look at their catalogs you'll be buying out dated equipment at a decent profit margin because you are buying from yourself you get the commission etc. Made my head spin because it wasn't simple.

But it did also help me learn how to work a room and talk to strangers that I have never met before.

At the time there was no Amazon, and I lived in suburban NJ with no car. Someone from the group would pick me up and take me to these events where they'd demo products, sell tapes, etc. I went strictly to meet people and buy books. I did it for about 7 months. I even took a road trip to Ada, MI to see the Amway HQ.

There is lots of pressure to buy into the Standing Order Tapes. Don't do it. It's a cash cow business that makes up most of the profits of the higher ups.

If you can separate the wheat from the chaff, it's like low cost business seminars on how to build small businesses. I think I had to pay $5 for each event that I attended.

The most money I made from it was meeting people who needed computer repair.... ahh... was like taking candy from a baby.

trib767 · 04-09-2005, 01:49 AM

I was approached by an amway person twice. The first person I worked with had invited me to dinner. Instead of desert they brought out Amway products and tried to pitch them. The second time was someone I respected. he called and asked if I'd ever thought of working for myself. He had a good job in a large corporation so I thought I'd go and meet him, not knowing until I got there that it was Amway again.

I ended up trying not to be a cynic on this occasion and went to a meeting. There were 100+ people there and the "guest of honour" was, aparently, Mr Amway who had flown in from the US specially. What a load of bollocks, and what a load of brainwashed people sucking up to it.

Basically, Amway is a cult. People might make money from it but I'd say they are few and far between. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is.

If Amway products are so cool, why can't I buy them in Tesco's ?

gar1976 · 04-09-2005, 05:46 PM

Don't get sucked into it.

I work with clients that throw money away after this shit. Haven't seen one do well at it yet.

spindles · 04-12-2005, 06:32 PM

This just made me think of that Simpsons episode.
"This is not a pyramid scheme - our shape is a trapeziod!"

squirrelyburt · 04-12-2005, 08:09 PM

Basically, run like hell!!! Kind of sounds like you already have that on your mind with calling it a scheme from the start. Can't really lump all these deals into MLM, some are decent, sell good products and you can get out what you put in. Just watch what you are doing. Check your state legal eagles online to see if there are pending cases or investigations against them. good luck!

TrevDigital · 04-30-2005, 11:15 AM

Aren't things like Tupperware and Pampered Chef essentially pyramid schemes?
The more I hear about Tupperware the more I realize that it is one huge, huge pyramid scheme.

So I would agree that not all MLM is evil

Like others, I'd take the "everyone else is swimming in money" as the number one, number two and number three signals that this is a bad idea. One time my neighbor talked me into going to his house for a seminar on some convoluted pyramid scheme or another. The first thing they did was pass around slips of paper and have us all write down what we'd do if we had an extra million dollars laying around after paying all of our bills, etc.Then we went around the room and shared. A fascinating study in the psychology of greed and immature consumerism.

Cynthetiq · 04-30-2005, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TrevDigital

Aren't things like Tupperware and Pampered Chef essentially pyramid schemes?
The more I hear about Tupperware the more I realize that it is one huge, huge pyramid scheme.

So I would agree that not all MLM is evil

Like others, I'd take the "everyone else is swimming in money" as the number one, number two and number three signals that this is a bad idea. One time my neighbor talked me into going to his house for a seminar on some convoluted pyramid scheme or another. The first thing they did was pass around slips of paper and have us all write down what we'd do if we had an extra million dollars laying around after paying all of our bills, etc.Then we went around the room and shared. A fascinating study in the psychology of greed and immature consumerism.

Yes, Tupperware, Pampered Chef, Avon, Mary Kay are all good examples of good MLM companies.

SirLance · 05-09-2005, 04:08 PM

I had some good friends who got involved. A married couple. It struck me that they were spending shitloads of money on tapes, books and rallies. They tried to get me involved, but would not answer direct questions about thier revenue and profits. I did some research and found this:

http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/

I would avoid it.

almostaugust · 05-09-2005, 09:50 PM

Thanks for all the advice TFPers. I ended up getting roped into going over to the guy's house for a meeting where he tried to get me to eat and drink the products we are supposed to sell. It was about 8 seconds later that i left.
Cheers.

merkerguitars · 05-25-2005, 09:36 PM

Yeah I know a few people into that, and the only ones that it works for are the ones that are really good salespeople, and I mean people that can utter complete bullshit.

Mobo123 · 05-26-2005, 10:19 PM

The only ones who made money off pyramid schemes, eg the airplane scam, are those very few at the top when the money comes pouring in. Way too soon, the pyramid collapses and the police/vice bust in.

My wife's cousin made $48 grand in the first couple days before that pyramid collapsed.

Stay far, far away.

04-04-2005, 07:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	Pyramid Schemes What do you think of these? A guy at work is trying to rope me into this amway related one. He assures me that everyone involved is swimming in money. What are your experiences with these? Thanks. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

04-04-2005, 08:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	My brother got sucked into Amway when he was younger. He said there is no surer way of making sure your friends NEVER call you. In theory, if you get in high enough up the pyramid, you should make tonnes of money, but the average joe in the street doesn't often end up at the top. Also, you would have to work pretty hard to get people below you signing up more people, so that you benefit... __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

04-04-2005, 11:25 PM	#3 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	Hi spindles, Thanks for your view. Yeah, i get that kind of vibe from the whole set up. Im sure its good money for the guy at the top of the pyramid. It seems kind of low to try and make all your friends your customers if they arnt willing. I guess they would see them as thier work partners though hey. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

04-04-2005, 11:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
nofnway Insane Location: under the freeway bridge	I'm not defending or rejecting Amway...You can form your own opinion there but it is not a pyramid scheme...rather multilevel marketing, in that all money (commision...bonuses....whatever) flows from the sale of products not the "Initiation fees" of new recruits. Just like conventional marketing and sales...the more the volume of sales the greater the profits..total dollars earned even on shrinking margins. Many businesses are marketed this way...Some more ethical than others. MLM however is not an illegitimate form of business. It works well for many people, some of whom I know personally, I however am not right for it. Here is an interesting link on the subject. http://www.ftc.gov/speeches/other/dvimf16.htm __________________ "Iron rusts with disuse, stagnant water loses its purity and in cold water freezes. Even so does inaction sap the vigor of the mind" Leonardo Da Vinci

04-05-2005, 11:00 PM	#6 (permalink)
liquidlight AHH! Custom Title!! Location: The twisted warpings of my brain.	My dad was involved in every MLM that you can imagine, and not a damned one of them ever worked, and we were broke as hell because of it. . . the theory is wonderful, the reality is far from it. I usually sum it up with something like, if this program was so great and successful, why is this guy still working a day job? __________________ Halfway to hell and picking up speed.

04-05-2005, 10:50 PM	#5 (permalink)
Randerolf Fireball Location: ~	I was just reading an article on pyramid schemes . I've know people who got involved in such organizations and lost money. My father once said, "Ain't nothin' easy" and making money is no exception.

04-06-2005, 04:37 AM	#7 (permalink)
zen_tom Guest	They are all scams - pure and simple. Even the so-called legitimate ones that use complicated techniques to disguise themselves from the law - all scams. If you want to make money, get a job, run a business, or start your own pyramid scam, but try not to become somebody else's victim. Please.

04-06-2005, 07:33 AM	#9 (permalink)
MoJoPokeyBlue Upright	Amway has some good products, but I never really like their whole marketing scheme. I remember reading in Money magazine about 5 years ago that less than 1% of the people in Amway make more than $15,000 a year. MoJo

04-08-2005, 05:24 PM	#10 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	Personally, I can kind of see MLM things working for you if: a) The upfront cost is low. b) You're selling a product you give a damn about c) You keep business and pleasure separate! d) Never invest more than you can afford to lose. My ex-wife badgered me into attending some amway meetings, and I saw a lot of people expecting to make a lot of money, but not a lot of people making a lot of money. Except for the 'regional director', or whatever. But think of how many chumps attend how many meetings and badger how many of their friends to trickle all that money up the chain to the people nearer the top! My (current) wife tried Mary Kay, which she lots some money on (you don't have to buy from them up front, but it was strongly suggested that doing so was the only way to do it). Then she tried Party Lite (candles), which worked out a little better - there was a much smaller up-front investment ($100?) that was pretty much paid for by the first party she did, and she made a couple of hundred more. She held the parties with most of her friends, but never got too many 'leads' from there, and it kind of trickled out. Maybe it would've worked out better if she were more willing to call pretty much total strangers and convince them to invite their friends to a 'party'. Women also seem to have more of a hook on this sort of thing - I'm not sure what most guys would sell this way - power tools? Porn? Wait...just...a...second... Hrm, I think I need to go write up a business plan! :-) Anyway, personally I got much less of a 'MLM', sign-people-up feel from partylite than the other two...and there was an actual focus on a product, unlike amway. With amway I always felt that the product was...amway. The other stuff was pretty much incidental. MK was a bit better, but there was still the up-front investment, and the 'sign people up' pressure. Hrm. Hope that didn't sound like a product endorsement, just my impression of the three that I've had experience with.

04-08-2005, 05:41 PM	#11 (permalink)
d3cemberist Crazy	If I was you, I would stay far far away from it. You will get sucked into it and eventually get fucked.

04-08-2005, 07:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	The only thing that I ever benefited from Amway was the ability to have access to some very good books and business minded people. I accepted being in Amway as a supplement to business building but not as a way of "getting rich". I did not buy any products as if you look at their catalogs you'll be buying out dated equipment at a decent profit margin because you are buying from yourself you get the commission etc. Made my head spin because it wasn't simple. But it did also help me learn how to work a room and talk to strangers that I have never met before. At the time there was no Amazon, and I lived in suburban NJ with no car. Someone from the group would pick me up and take me to these events where they'd demo products, sell tapes, etc. I went strictly to meet people and buy books. I did it for about 7 months. I even took a road trip to Ada, MI to see the Amway HQ. There is lots of pressure to buy into the Standing Order Tapes. Don't do it. It's a cash cow business that makes up most of the profits of the higher ups. If you can separate the wheat from the chaff, it's like low cost business seminars on how to build small businesses. I think I had to pay $5 for each event that I attended. The most money I made from it was meeting people who needed computer repair.... ahh... was like taking candy from a baby. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

04-09-2005, 01:49 AM	#13 (permalink)
trib767 Crazy Location: London, UK	I was approached by an amway person twice. The first person I worked with had invited me to dinner. Instead of desert they brought out Amway products and tried to pitch them. The second time was someone I respected. he called and asked if I'd ever thought of working for myself. He had a good job in a large corporation so I thought I'd go and meet him, not knowing until I got there that it was Amway again. I ended up trying not to be a cynic on this occasion and went to a meeting. There were 100+ people there and the "guest of honour" was, aparently, Mr Amway who had flown in from the US specially. What a load of bollocks, and what a load of brainwashed people sucking up to it. Basically, Amway is a cult. People might make money from it but I'd say they are few and far between. If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is. If Amway products are so cool, why can't I buy them in Tesco's ?

04-09-2005, 05:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
gar1976 Custom User Title Location: Lurking. Under the desk.	Don't get sucked into it. I work with clients that throw money away after this shit. Haven't seen one do well at it yet. __________________ Blistex, in regards to crappy games - They made pong look like a story driven RPG with a dynamic campaign.

04-12-2005, 06:32 PM	#15 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	This just made me think of that Simpsons episode. "This is not a pyramid scheme - our shape is a trapeziod!" __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

04-12-2005, 08:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
squirrelyburt Crazy Location: Central Wisconsin	Basically, run like hell!!! Kind of sounds like you already have that on your mind with calling it a scheme from the start. Can't really lump all these deals into MLM, some are decent, sell good products and you can get out what you put in. Just watch what you are doing. Check your state legal eagles online to see if there are pending cases or investigations against them. good luck! __________________ If you've ever felt there was a reason to be afraid of the dark, you were right.

04-30-2005, 11:15 AM	#17 (permalink)
TrevDigital Upright	Aren't things like Tupperware and Pampered Chef essentially pyramid schemes? The more I hear about Tupperware the more I realize that it is one huge, huge pyramid scheme. So I would agree that not all MLM is evil Like others, I'd take the "everyone else is swimming in money" as the number one, number two and number three signals that this is a bad idea. One time my neighbor talked me into going to his house for a seminar on some convoluted pyramid scheme or another. The first thing they did was pass around slips of paper and have us all write down what we'd do if we had an extra million dollars laying around after paying all of our bills, etc.Then we went around the room and shared. A fascinating study in the psychology of greed and immature consumerism.

05-09-2005, 04:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
SirLance Junkie Location: In the middle of the desert.	I had some good friends who got involved. A married couple. It struck me that they were spending shitloads of money on tapes, books and rallies. They tried to get me involved, but would not answer direct questions about thier revenue and profits. I did some research and found this: http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Amway/AUS/ I would avoid it. __________________ DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

05-09-2005, 09:50 PM	#20 (permalink)
almostaugust Junkie Location: Oz	Thanks for all the advice TFPers. I ended up getting roped into going over to the guy's house for a meeting where he tried to get me to eat and drink the products we are supposed to sell. It was about 8 seconds later that i left. Cheers. __________________ 'And it's been a long December and there's reason to believe Maybe this year will be better than the last I can't remember all the times I tried to tell my myself To hold on to these moments as they pass'

05-25-2005, 09:36 PM	#21 (permalink)
merkerguitars Buffering......... Location: Wisconsin...	Yeah I know a few people into that, and the only ones that it works for are the ones that are really good salespeople, and I mean people that can utter complete bullshit. __________________ Donate now! Ask me How! Please use the search function it is your friend. Look at my mustang please feel free to comment! http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=26985

05-26-2005, 10:19 PM	#22 (permalink)
Mobo123 Insane	The only ones who made money off pyramid schemes, eg the airplane scam, are those very few at the top when the money comes pouring in. Way too soon, the pyramid collapses and the police/vice bust in. My wife's cousin made $48 grand in the first couple days before that pyramid collapsed. Stay far, far away.