nohitters

My mom as always been the churchy type, always dragging her children there every Sunday. Eventually it got boring so naturally, I wanted to stop. She kept forcing me. Then, last year in an Early World History class, I learned a lot of supported evidence that proves a lot of things wrong in this religion.

1) The tale of noah's ark was a folklore created by an ancient civilization, and the character's name was Gilgamesh. Apparently, this story has been retold in almost every religion possible.

2) Jesus was supposedly able to perform any miracle, yet in history, he did very little of his own work.

3) Christianity is against sorcery. If so then why were bread and fish and wine multiplied at the last supper.

4) During the plagues, why the hell would God kill so many innocent first born children.

I know a lot more but don't feel like taking the time to type them all out.

If you support or oppose my opinion, please explain. I'm in a real pickle, stuck between beliefs. I'm definitely borderlining atheist and christian right now and I'm confused as hell about what to believe.

kurtisj

i dont know about you, but religion does not impact my life at all, i could really care less either way, here are some suggestions
1)Agnostic - there is no way to prove or disprove god's existence
2)Pagan - No religion at all...
for the most part i personally am a pagan, but i am slightly agnostic because there is no way to really know, until the moment of truth anyway

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Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.

guthmund

No one knows for sure which one is based on which or if they're even related at all. I mean, some would argue that both were drawn seperately from a common source much, much older than either the Hebrew (Noah) or Sumerian (Gilgamesh) versions. For the record, Gilgamesh isn't the Sumerian version of Noah. Gilgamesh was a Sumerian king, who after the death of his one time enemy and then dearest friend, Enkidu, developed a fear of death and began searching for immortality. He runs into Utnapishtim, who is comparable to the Biblical Noah.

Of course, I'm sure there are others here who are better versed in the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah's Flood who could elaborate on (and possibly, correct) what I've said.

I wasn't aware that Jesus performed any 'miracles' related to food at the last supper. I think you're confusing two stories, Jesus feeding the multitudes and the last supper. Although to be fair, it's been a while since I picked up the Bible.

I would think the standard answer to that would be, 'Jesus is God's son/extension of God on Earth, so he wouldn't have to play by the same rules. By extension, I would imagine as the blessed Son of God, Jesus could delegate what he wanted to when he wanted to do it. It would be his prerogative as he was 'special' and exempt from the rules laid forth.

Well, some would use Psalm 51:5 and John 9:34 to bolster their argument that all are born with sin and that the only way of salvation lies in Baptism. The Egyptians, not exactly a Christian God fearing people, wouldn't have Baptised their kids in the Christian tradition. So following that logic (and it's flawed on so many levels) the Egyptian first born would have been sinful since birth and not really innocent at all. It doesn't take a great leap of logic then to assume that God casting a plague down on the heathen Egyptians wouldn't be the same as God casting down a plague on the Hebrews, who were God's chosen people.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I don't particularly agree with any of the arguments I've delivered. All that being said, there are many such conundrums in the Bible and by extension the Christian faith, but to be fair there are many such conundrums in the vast majority of other religions out there as well. It's all based on personal perception and our views, beliefs and justifications are all warped by that perception. It really just depends on where you're standing theologically.

Which brings us to this...

There should be no confusion. The problem is that you've picked a religion and are trying to conform and contort yourself and your beliefs to fit the system. It should really be the other way around. You should find out what it is you believe and then find the religion that fits you.

I choose to keep faith and religion seperate. I believe what I believe (my faith) and if I choose to share that faith with like minded people I pick the appropriate religion to share it with. Develop your faith first and then, if you desire, choose the religion that best fits that faith. If you choose to pick religion without faith, you're nothing more than a drone, repeating ad nauseum catechism and edicts to others that you may not truly believe yourself. You're doing yourself a great disservice and making a mockery of those that truly believe and the religion that you've chosen by doing nothing more than paying lip service to an idea you don't really believe in.

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martinguerre

1. its' not about the literal. i promise. noah being a real person does not prove or disprove the bible.

2. I don't think jesus was Christ becuase he could do miracles. what we need most are day to day things...not dramas. and Jesus knew that. he gave us an example...of community, of equality, and grace.

3. it's not the last supper. but whatever. the point is about God's ability to feed us. the need we so deeply have is met in something outside of us.

4. i don't know what to say. i'll quote someone smarter than me. "that we are all remembered, and remembered with grace is all the afterlife that i ask for."

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For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16

asaris

Somewhat right. Sorcery is forbidden by scripture because it makes use of the powers of the devil (that's why science, which when sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, is okay). But the power by which miracles occur comes from God. One way to distinguish between the two is how they are performed; sorcery makes demands or pacts or whatever, while miracles ask God nicely to do something.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

lurkette

It's possible to question the literal veracity of a lot of the stories in the Bible and still be a Christian. I am more of a new-agey agnostic, myself, but I think there is a lot of wisdom in Jesus' actual teachings.

You might look into taking a comparative religion course, or talking to an open-minded Christian clergy-person or someone well-versed in religion (I'd suggest finding an Episcopalian priest or Unitarian minister; or heck, our own Lebell) and talk to them about some of your questions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with rejecting Christianity, but I'd hate to see you do it just because you have questions that aren't answered to your satisfaction. I had my questions answered and then still rejected it, but that's a different story. But at least I made an educated decision.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Rodney

Christianity is about questioning, really. It was originally a radical religion that looked around at society and said, "You're not doing it right; you're oppressing people and grabbing privilege in the name of God." Guess what: 2000 years later,that's still happening. Jesus, if he were alive, would be as controversial today as 2000 years ago and as dangerous to the power elites as then, they who use Christianity as a control mechanism. We might not crucify him this time around -- we're much more civilized -- but he might have an "accident."

The Bible is not literal truth; it is the spiritual history of a people, and of two religions: what they believed and thought about God, and how they thought God responded to what they did in the world. Is it the literal truth? No. But it doesn't really have to be, to true in spirit.

Don't confuse metaphor with reality. The writers of the New Testament sure didn't. The gospels were articles of faith, not of factual reporting. Are the loaves and fishes factual truth, or was the real truth that the love and example of Christ brought the food out of the crowd itself? We'll never know, but it was the tradition of religious writing of the time to infer the miraculous from the commonplace. In a way, it still is.

You should also question whether everything happens because God has a plan -- or if things just happen, and God is there to help.

I would recommend to you a book written by a rabbi, but very applicable to Christian thought (it is the Judeo-Christian Tradition, after all) called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." Author is named Harold Kushner. Very helpful for all those "If God controls everything, then why..." questions.

guthmund

Thanks. I knew better than that.

I was trying to formulate what I was going to say about the last thing while typing the explanation. I just got ahead of myself and didn't think it through properly.

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