Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community  

Go Back   Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community > The Academy > Tilted Life


 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
Old 02-08-2005, 07:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
Tilted
 
Questioning Christianity

My mom as always been the churchy type, always dragging her children there every Sunday. Eventually it got boring so naturally, I wanted to stop. She kept forcing me. Then, last year in an Early World History class, I learned a lot of supported evidence that proves a lot of things wrong in this religion.

1) The tale of noah's ark was a folklore created by an ancient civilization, and the character's name was Gilgamesh. Apparently, this story has been retold in almost every religion possible.

2) Jesus was supposedly able to perform any miracle, yet in history, he did very little of his own work.

3) Christianity is against sorcery. If so then why were bread and fish and wine multiplied at the last supper.

4) During the plagues, why the hell would God kill so many innocent first born children.

I know a lot more but don't feel like taking the time to type them all out.

If you support or oppose my opinion, please explain. I'm in a real pickle, stuck between beliefs. I'm definitely borderlining atheist and christian right now and I'm confused as hell about what to believe.
nohitters is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 08:34 PM   #2 (permalink)
Insane
 
kurtisj's Avatar
 
Location: The Wick
i dont know about you, but religion does not impact my life at all, i could really care less either way, here are some suggestions
1)Agnostic - there is no way to prove or disprove god's existence
2)Pagan - No religion at all...
for the most part i personally am a pagan, but i am slightly agnostic because there is no way to really know, until the moment of truth anyway
__________________
Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.
kurtisj is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 09:46 PM   #3 (permalink)
big damn hero
 
guthmund's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nohitters
1) The tale of noah's ark was a folklore created by an ancient civilization, and the character's name was Gilgamesh. Apparently, this story has been retold in almost every religion possible.
No one knows for sure which one is based on which or if they're even related at all. I mean, some would argue that both were drawn seperately from a common source much, much older than either the Hebrew (Noah) or Sumerian (Gilgamesh) versions. For the record, Gilgamesh isn't the Sumerian version of Noah. Gilgamesh was a Sumerian king, who after the death of his one time enemy and then dearest friend, Enkidu, developed a fear of death and began searching for immortality. He runs into Utnapishtim, who is comparable to the Biblical Noah.

Of course, I'm sure there are others here who are better versed in the Epic of Gilgamesh and the story of Noah's Flood who could elaborate on (and possibly, correct) what I've said.

Quote:
2) Jesus was supposedly able to perform any miracle, yet in history, he did very little of his own work.

3) Christianity is against sorcery. If so then why were bread and fish and wine multiplied at the last supper.
I wasn't aware that Jesus performed any 'miracles' related to food at the last supper. I think you're confusing two stories, Jesus feeding the multitudes and the last supper. Although to be fair, it's been a while since I picked up the Bible.

I would think the standard answer to that would be, 'Jesus is God's son/extension of God on Earth, so he wouldn't have to play by the same rules. By extension, I would imagine as the blessed Son of God, Jesus could delegate what he wanted to when he wanted to do it. It would be his prerogative as he was 'special' and exempt from the rules laid forth.

Quote:
4) During the plagues, why the hell would God kill so many innocent first born children.

I know a lot more but don't feel like taking the time to type them all out.
Well, some would use Psalm 51:5 and John 9:34 to bolster their argument that all are born with sin and that the only way of salvation lies in Baptism. The Egyptians, not exactly a Christian God fearing people, wouldn't have Baptised their kids in the Christian tradition. So following that logic (and it's flawed on so many levels) the Egyptian first born would have been sinful since birth and not really innocent at all. It doesn't take a great leap of logic then to assume that God casting a plague down on the heathen Egyptians wouldn't be the same as God casting down a plague on the Hebrews, who were God's chosen people.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm just playing devil's advocate here as I don't particularly agree with any of the arguments I've delivered. All that being said, there are many such conundrums in the Bible and by extension the Christian faith, but to be fair there are many such conundrums in the vast majority of other religions out there as well. It's all based on personal perception and our views, beliefs and justifications are all warped by that perception. It really just depends on where you're standing theologically.

Which brings us to this...

Quote:
If you support or oppose my opinion, please explain. I'm in a real pickle, stuck between beliefs. I'm definitely borderlining atheist and christian right now and I'm confused as hell about what to believe.
There should be no confusion. The problem is that you've picked a religion and are trying to conform and contort yourself and your beliefs to fit the system. It should really be the other way around. You should find out what it is you believe and then find the religion that fits you.

I choose to keep faith and religion seperate. I believe what I believe (my faith) and if I choose to share that faith with like minded people I pick the appropriate religion to share it with. Develop your faith first and then, if you desire, choose the religion that best fits that faith. If you choose to pick religion without faith, you're nothing more than a drone, repeating ad nauseum catechism and edicts to others that you may not truly believe yourself. You're doing yourself a great disservice and making a mockery of those that truly believe and the religion that you've chosen by doing nothing more than paying lip service to an idea you don't really believe in.
__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.

Last edited by guthmund; 02-08-2005 at 09:51 PM..
guthmund is offline  
Old 02-08-2005, 11:07 PM   #4 (permalink)
whosoever
 
martinguerre's Avatar
 
Location: New England
1. its' not about the literal. i promise. noah being a real person does not prove or disprove the bible.

2. I don't think jesus was Christ becuase he could do miracles. what we need most are day to day things...not dramas. and Jesus knew that. he gave us an example...of community, of equality, and grace.

3. it's not the last supper. but whatever. the point is about God's ability to feed us. the need we so deeply have is met in something outside of us.

4. i don't know what to say. i'll quote someone smarter than me. "that we are all remembered, and remembered with grace is all the afterlife that i ask for."
__________________
For God so loved creation, that God sent God's only Son that whosoever believed should not perish, but have everlasting life.

-John 3:16
martinguerre is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 06:49 AM   #5 (permalink)
Mad Philosopher
 
asaris's Avatar
 
Location: Washington, DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by guthmund
I would think the standard answer to that would be, 'Jesus is God's son/extension of God on Earth, so he wouldn't have to play by the same rules. By extension, I would imagine as the blessed Son of God, Jesus could delegate what he wanted to when he wanted to do it. It would be his prerogative as he was 'special' and exempt from the rules laid forth.
Somewhat right. Sorcery is forbidden by scripture because it makes use of the powers of the devil (that's why science, which when sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, is okay). But the power by which miracles occur comes from God. One way to distinguish between the two is how they are performed; sorcery makes demands or pacts or whatever, while miracles ask God nicely to do something.
__________________
"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche
asaris is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 07:18 AM   #6 (permalink)
My future is coming on
 
lurkette's Avatar
 
Moderator Emeritus
Location: east of the sun and west of the moon
It's possible to question the literal veracity of a lot of the stories in the Bible and still be a Christian. I am more of a new-agey agnostic, myself, but I think there is a lot of wisdom in Jesus' actual teachings.

You might look into taking a comparative religion course, or talking to an open-minded Christian clergy-person or someone well-versed in religion (I'd suggest finding an Episcopalian priest or Unitarian minister; or heck, our own Lebell) and talk to them about some of your questions. There's absolutely nothing wrong with rejecting Christianity, but I'd hate to see you do it just because you have questions that aren't answered to your satisfaction. I had my questions answered and then still rejected it, but that's a different story. But at least I made an educated decision.
__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France
lurkette is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 11:09 AM   #7 (permalink)
Observant Ruminant
 
Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town
Christianity is about questioning, really. It was originally a radical religion that looked around at society and said, "You're not doing it right; you're oppressing people and grabbing privilege in the name of God." Guess what: 2000 years later,that's still happening. Jesus, if he were alive, would be as controversial today as 2000 years ago and as dangerous to the power elites as then, they who use Christianity as a control mechanism. We might not crucify him this time around -- we're much more civilized -- but he might have an "accident."

The Bible is not literal truth; it is the spiritual history of a people, and of two religions: what they believed and thought about God, and how they thought God responded to what they did in the world. Is it the literal truth? No. But it doesn't really have to be, to true in spirit.

Don't confuse metaphor with reality. The writers of the New Testament sure didn't. The gospels were articles of faith, not of factual reporting. Are the loaves and fishes factual truth, or was the real truth that the love and example of Christ brought the food out of the crowd itself? We'll never know, but it was the tradition of religious writing of the time to infer the miraculous from the commonplace. In a way, it still is.

You should also question whether everything happens because God has a plan -- or if things just happen, and God is there to help.

I would recommend to you a book written by a rabbi, but very applicable to Christian thought (it is the Judeo-Christian Tradition, after all) called "When Bad Things Happen to Good People." Author is named Harold Kushner. Very helpful for all those "If God controls everything, then why..." questions.
Rodney is offline  
Old 02-09-2005, 01:00 PM   #8 (permalink)
big damn hero
 
guthmund's Avatar
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asaris
Somewhat right. Sorcery is forbidden by scripture because it makes use of the powers of the devil (that's why science, which when sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic, is okay). But the power by which miracles occur comes from God. One way to distinguish between the two is how they are performed; sorcery makes demands or pacts or whatever, while miracles ask God nicely to do something.
Thanks. I knew better than that.

I was trying to formulate what I was going to say about the last thing while typing the explanation. I just got ahead of myself and didn't think it through properly.
__________________
No signature. None. Seriously.
guthmund is offline  
 

Tags
christianity, questioning

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 01:06 AM.

Tilted Forum Project

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
© 2002-2012 Tilted Forum Project

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 63 64 65 66 67 68 69 70 71 72 73 74 75 76 77 78 79 80 81 82 83 84 85 86 87 88 89 90 91 92 93 94 95 96 97 98 99 100 101 102 103 104 105 106 107 108 109 110 111 112 113 114 115 116 117 118 119 120 121 122 123 124 125 126 127 128 129 130 131 132 133 134 135 136 137 138 139 140 141 142 143 144 145 146 147 148 149 150 151 152 153 154 155 156 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 184 185 186 187 188 189 190 191 192 193 194 195 196 197 198 199 200 201 202 203 204 205 206 207 208 209 210 211 212 213 214 215 216 217 218 219 220 221 222 223 224 225 226 227 228 229 230 231 232 233 234 235 236 237 238 239 240 241 242 243 244 245 246 247 248 249 250 251 252 253 254 255 256 257 258 259 260 261 262 263 264 265 266 267 268 269 270 271 272 273 274 275 276 277 278 279 280 281 282 283 284 285 286 287 288 289 290 291 292 293 294 295 296 297 298 299 300 301 302 303 304 305 306 307 308 309 310 311 312 313 314 315 316 317 318 319 320 321 322 323 324 325 326 327 328 329 330 331 332 333 334 335 336 337 338 339 340 341 342 343 344 345 346 347 348 349 350 351 352 353 354 355 356 357 358 359 360