Acupuncture - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Val_1 · 02-02-2005, 06:28 PM

Anyone ever tried acupuncture? I have a strong desire to try it. Even though I don't really believe in it as a curative process. I pretty much believe that it is a placebo, but I've still got a strong desire to give it a shot. Not sure what is drawing me to it. Over all I don't like needles. But, it seems like it would be relaxing and I have been pretty stressed out lately.

Squishor · 02-02-2005, 08:23 PM

Try it! I've done it a lot, it can be very relaxing.

lurkette · 02-02-2005, 09:28 PM

It depends on what you're having it done for. There are studies that have shown it to be as effective as "conventional" treatments for a number of ailments - I can't think what they were offhand, but the studies were pretty convincing. Whether the mechanism by which it's effective is placebo or something else, the effects (at least in these cases that were studied) were real and lasting.

If you're just going for relaxation, it can't hurt. If you're going for some other reason, to treat a specific ailment, do your research first to see if it's been shown to be effective as a treatment for that ailment.

Good luck - interested to hear how it goes!

munchen · 02-02-2005, 11:29 PM

There is some science behind this. I dont really know excatly how it works but I think it has to do with the different nerve plexus and how they stimulate eachother and the nervous system. I know it does work but probably not to the extent they claim

Val_1 · 02-06-2005, 09:28 AM

I found the number of a good accupuncturist (sp?). She's highly recomended by the folks that've tried it. I'm going to call on Monday for an appointment. I'll let you know what I think.

Ella · 02-06-2005, 12:16 PM

I've only tried it once for an incredibly sore neck that massage nor other therapies would fix. And the effect was almost immediate. I'd do it again in an instant if I had to.

larny · 02-07-2005, 12:21 PM

i want to try it but i dont how it can work, can anybody tell me how it works?

Val_1 · 02-17-2005, 05:09 PM

The theory about how it works is that there the nerves can only transmit a small amount of information because of their limited capacity. When you transmit signals that override your pain (back ache, headache, arthitis, etc), it blocks the signals from reaching your brain. There's othe theories about how it works as well. One I've heard has to do with the bodies electromagnetic fields. Studies have shown that acupuncturists that display a strong sense of "mysticism" have better results than those that have a clinical approach. That does imply a placebo effect.

Halx · 02-17-2005, 05:13 PM

Manuel Hong shall be in here shortly to tell you everything you need to know.

NCB · 02-17-2005, 06:14 PM

I've tried acupuncture 5 years ago for my back. Seemed to help at the time, until a couple of months later the pain starting getting worse. Thus, the surgery helped better.

It turned out that I had a serious stress fracture in my lower lumbars. Like someone else stated previously, it really depends on what you're trying to heal.

izzzzy · 02-21-2005, 08:19 AM

I went to the accupuncturist for tennis elbow .I couldnt hold 5 lb. materielin my right hand.4 treatments@40bucks each. Worth every nickel. First he massages the affected area then they put several pins in and then he attatches little clips with wires connected to a electrical apperatus and you get a very mild current for 1/2 hour, then he takes out the pins then he massages the area again and thats it. depends on what youre going for, but I endorse it. Been pain free for about 4 years now.

ckp · 02-21-2005, 01:21 PM

My wife was working in a library - and on her feet for 10+ hours per day. They were, for various foolish reasons, not allowed to even use a stool behind the desk. Somehow, she got a pinched nerve in her hip. She could not sleep due to the pain, and was in severe pain all day. Since even with insurance, the medical treatment was going to be several thousand dollars out of pocket, we decided to check with a local acupuncturist.

He indicated, after a short exam, that he could take care of her in two sessions, at a total cost of $250. We figured that it was worth a gamble. After the first session, she was significantly improved, and the since the second session, she's only had an occasional twinge from the nerve. This was about two years ago.

I don't think that's a scientific testimonial, but in that case, for that particular problem, acupuncture worked spectacularly well. For another pain-related problem, I would definitely take her back (or me, if I had such a problem).

For what it's worth, this fellow specialized in smoking cessation. Apparently for a rather small fee, he would stick needles in you and you'd no longer crave cigarettes. Word is it worked well, but I can't speak to that particular application.

archpaladin · 02-21-2005, 09:21 PM

There are recorded cases of acupuncture working on dogs. If acupuncture truely was just a placebo effect there couldn't be any improvement possible in animals because you can't get across to the animal that what you're doing is supposed to be helpful.

The 'gate theory', which states that acupuncture works because stimulation of one section of the nervous system inhibits the effect of another part of the nervous system, is plausible but I don't think it's very likely. Locations where needles are inserted do not always correspond to the locations of major nerves.

The theory behind acupuncture that I believe is correct involves the human body's bioelectrical fields. Needles are inserted at places where the body has a high electrical conductance, and this alters the conductance just slightly in this area, making it more receptive. Since the electrical fields in different parts of the body are subtly interconnected, a slight change in one area can produce a noticable change in another area. This in turn can promote healing and restoration.

That's about the $0.02 explanation. I could go on if people really wanted but I suggest that those who are interested in the theory should find an acupuncturist and ask questions face to face.

portereight · 03-01-2005, 07:01 AM

My sister is a physiotherapist. She received training for acupuncture as part of her degree. Recently she treated my wife who had a chronic headache/neck problem. She really pulled back the curtain on how this stuff works.
For most acupuncture the points are actually related to muscles more than nerves. The needle stimulates the muscle in a similar way to a massage, but at a much deeper more localized level. When beginning treatment the needle often causes an increase in symptomatic pain, which is an indication of it being in the right spot. As the needle does it's magic that pain/tension will decrease and the acupuncturist will probably insert the needle a little further until the symptom returns. Subsequent treatments are usually come with more relief. For most muscle/tension/headache/overuse type of treatments the needles are just left in for 15 minutes and the treatment is repeated 3-4 times a week.
Now having said this my sister said that the woman who taught them was a doctor of Chinese medicine and they have a different understanding of what is going on than western medicine. She was taught that she was controlling the flow of "chi" or energy, and that symptom is trapped or impeded chi. The pain caused my the initial needle is good chi, and so on. Chinese medicine can use acupuncture effectively to treat things that western medicine wouldn't. An example is that a Chinese practitioner uses meridians or points that relate to the internal organs that western practitioners of acupuncture don't usually recognize.
If you do seek treatment, a good practitioner will guide you through the reference points and "map" they use to find the points, and show you how to find them yourself. They should also show you some simple exercises to help with the same muscle structures (or chi flow if that is their training). Once at home you can either find these points yourself and stimulate them with finger pressure or better yet have your partner do it while you relax.

Some people also have an electrical currant applied to the needles. This is essentially the same thing as the needle itself, but "turned up to 11" the current causes the muscle to contract slightly. The current may either be continuous or applied in a rhythmic pattern. Kinda like an internal massage thrown in for good measure.

Manuel Hong · 03-03-2005, 01:35 PM

OOps, I'm late! Sorry, I just found this thread.

While I'm not an acupuncturist, I do have a Chinese medical practice. There are two pillars of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): herbal medicine and acupuncture.

Both traditions are 3,000 years old and have been continuing to develop in that time, much longer than conventional allopathic medicine which is about 150 years old at best. TCM uses techniques to bring the body back into a state of balance. The substances in the body are Blood, Qi (pronounced chee, it's your body's energy), Jing (sort of like hormones, but different), and Shen (like spirit). Acupuncture is a method of inserting needles on points along meridians (energy pathways) in the body. The needles serve to move obstruction (often manifesting as pain or other types of stagnation), enhace Qi to an area, and balance the internal organs.

More from my brochure:

TCM is a system of diagnosing and healing that is over two thousand years old. The theory developed from the most basic concepts of Eastern thought: Yin/Yang and the concept of Qi (chee). Qi is the Essence of energy that all things in our universe draw upon in every moment. Yin/Yang is a familiar symbol [ that represents forces that are equal and opposite. These forces create or destroy balance and harmony in the body. The tools used to treat disorders, such as herbs and energy manipulation, are used to achieve a balancing effect on each person in their individuality.

In TCM the practitioner will observe the client’s facial tone and color, the condition of their nails and flesh, their ease of movement, the brightness of their eyes as well as listen to the tone of their voice, what they say and how they say it. A practitioner of TCM will note any unusual odors and ask many questions surrounding not only the nature of the problem, but also regarding routine functions of the body such as diet, rest, exercise, menses, elimination and more. Essential to the diagnosis is the methods of pulse taking and the examination of the tongue. Both are ancient techniques that give an abundance of valuable information to the practitioner regarding the conditions of the vital organs, the blood, the Qi and other key pieces of information necessary for a complete and accurate picture of the client’s state of health. The goal of the treatment is to bring the body to a state of balance.

I don't want to make this too long or give a basic lesson on how TCM works or why as there is loads of info available on the net. Suffice to say, I'm very successful in my practice treating a wide range of problems that conventional medicine can't help. I've been blessed by brilliant mentors and teachers as well as extended study in Beijing. The docs over there are doing some amazing things!!!!! IMO, this form of medicine is far superior to anything modern med has to offer, and there are no side effects. As with regular doctors, you need to trust your practitioner and know that they received proper training and have put in many clinical hours. There are some MD's that practice acupuncture, but have only received minimal training and have no concept of the theories underlying the treatment protocol.

Did I miss anything? I hope I answered your questions...if not let me know what else you'd like to know.

DDDDave · 03-03-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by izzzzy

I went to the accupuncturist for tennis elbow .I couldnt hold 5 lb. materielin my right hand.4 treatments@40bucks each. Worth every nickel. First he massages the affected area then they put several pins in and then he attatches little clips with wires connected to a electrical apperatus and you get a very mild current for 1/2 hour, then he takes out the pins then he massages the area again and thats it. depends on what youre going for, but I endorse it. Been pain free for about 4 years now.

My wife had a very similar pain in her arm that she just couldn't shake. Went to massage, regualr doc., pain pills. Finally tried acupuncture. 3 treatments @ $25. cured and never came back. She would go again in a minute.

Coppertop · 03-25-2005, 01:12 PM

Anyone have experience with acupuncture being used to treat allergies? I have the most severe allergies of anyone that I or my friends know of. Pets, pollen, dust - you name it and it starts me to sneezing something fierce. My friend recently told me that he knows of two people who used acupuncture for allergies and both were successful. One was a new age type of girl and the other was extremely skeptical. So they went into acupuncture in as different mindsets as are possible. Anyone here have first hand information about this?

2sheds · 03-25-2005, 01:50 PM

there's clinical evidence to support it's benefit in pain management. my insurance actually covers it.

as for stopping smoking, losing weight, or alergies - i'm not aware of any literature, but i have my doubts.

lordkos · 04-01-2005, 10:58 PM

I get it done everytime i go to the chiropractor(i hate spelling)
Ill get it doen with a needle and other times they have this little machine that they put a qtip on the end and its just like the needle...but sometimes it shocks you and it hurts haha

ShaniFaye · 04-20-2006, 10:14 AM

I was going to start a thread on this, but I found this one first so Im dredging it up.

Two guys here at work have been having this done and they swear by it. One of them has the exact same type of lower back pain that I do, caused by walking on floors like at home depot or walmart or grocery stores, or standing for even 10 minutes at a time. These activities can put us down for days at a time. He had a sucession of 10 visits (last one in feburary) and it appears to have worked for him, he has had no reoccurence at all.

I've got a call into her to get an appt to see if it works for me!!

snowy · 04-20-2006, 10:45 AM

My dad had major back problems and decided to go with acupuncture for pain management in the months leading up to his major back surgery. He found it quite helpful. Now, my dad is the biggest skeptic in the world and totally not into anything he might think is "New Age-y", so if it worked for him I can only assume it would work for others.

Sultana · 04-20-2006, 11:15 AM

I'd *love* to know if this helps allergies.

Ustwo · 04-20-2006, 11:59 AM

Time to piss in the cornflakes....with lots of words, I'll highlight in yellow

Quote:

Acupuncture, Qigong, and "Chinese Medicine"

Stephen Barrett, M.D.

"Chinese medicine," often called "Oriental medicine" or "traditional Chinese medicine (TCM)," encompasses a vast array of folk medical practices based on mysticism. It holds that the body's vital energy (chi or qi) circulates through channels, called meridians, that have branches connected to bodily organs and functions. Illness is attributed to imbalance or interruption of chi.. Ancient practices such as acupuncture, Qigong, and the use of various herbs are claimed to restore balance.

Traditional acupuncture, as now practiced, involves the insertion of stainless steel needles into various body areas. A low-frequency current may be applied to the needles to produce greater stimulation. Other procedures used separately or together with acupuncture include: moxibustion (burning of floss or herbs applied to the skin); injection of sterile water, procaine, morphine, vitamins, or homeopathic solutions through the inserted needles; applications of laser beams (laserpuncture); placement of needles in the external ear (auriculotherapy); and acupressure (use of manual pressure). Treatment is applied to "acupuncture points," which are said to be located throughout the body. Originally there were 365 such points, corresponding to the days of the year, but the number identified by proponents during the past 2,000 years has increased gradually to about 2,000 [1]. Some practitioners place needles at or near the site of disease, whereas others select points on the basis of symptoms. In traditional acupuncture, a combination of points is usually used.

Qigong is also claimed to influence the flow of "vital energy." Internal Qigong involves deep breathing, concentration, and relaxation techniques used by individuals for themselves. External Qigong is performed by "Qigong masters" who claim to cure a wide variety of diseases with energy released from their fingertips. However, scientific investigators of Qigong masters in China have found no evidence of paranormal powers and some evidence of deception. They found, for example, that a patient lying on a table about eight feet from a Qigong master moved rhythmically or thrashed about as the master moved his hands. But when she was placed so that she could no longer see him, her movements were unrelated to his [2]. Falun gong, which China recently banned, is a Qigong varient claimed to be "a powerful mechanism for healing, stress relief and health improvements."

Most acupuncturists espouse the traditional Chinese view of health and disease and consider acupuncture, herbal medicine, and related practices to be valid approaches to the full gamut of disease. Others reject the traditional approach and merely claim that acupuncture offers a simple way to achieve pain relief. The diagnostic process used by TCM practitioners may include questioning (medical history, lifestyle), observations (skin, tongue, color), listening (breathing sounds), and pulse-taking. Six pulse aspects said to correlate with body organs or functions are checked on each wrist to determine which meridians are "deficient" in chi. (Medical science recognizes only one pulse, corresponding to the heartbeat, which can be felt in the wrist, neck, feet, and various other places.) Some acupuncturists state that the electrical properties of the body may become imbalanced weeks or even months before symptoms occur. These practitioners claim that acupuncture can be used to treat conditions when the patient just "doesn't feel right," even though no disease is apparent.

TCM (as well as the folk medical practices of various other Asian countries) is a threat to certain animal species. For example, black bears -- valued for their gall bladders -- have been hunted nearly to extinction in Asia, and poaching of black bears is a growing problem in North America.

Dubious Claims

The conditions claimed to respond to acupuncture include chronic pain (neck and back pain, migraine headaches), acute injury-related pain (strains, muscle and ligament tears), gastrointestinal problems (indigestion, ulcers, constipation, diarrhea), cardiovascular conditions (high and low blood pressure), genitourinary problems (menstrual irregularity, frigidity, impotence), muscle and nerve conditions (paralysis, deafness), and behavioral problems (overeating, drug dependence, smoking). However, the evidence supporting these claims consists mostly of practitioners' observations and poorly designed studies. A controlled study found that electroacupuncture of the ear was no more effective than placebo stimulation (light touching) against chronic pain [3]. In 1990, three Dutch epidemiologists analyzed 51 controlled studies of acupuncture for chronic pain and concluded that "the quality of even the better studies proved to be mediocre. . . . The efficacy of acupuncture in the treatment of chronic pain remains doubtful." [4] They also examined reports of acupuncture used to treat addictions to cigarettes, heroin, and alcohol, and concluded that claims that acupuncture is effective as a therapy for these conditions are not supported by sound clinical research [5].

Acupuncture anesthesia is not used for surgery in the Orient to the extent that its proponents suggest. In China physicians screen out patients who appear to be unsuitable. Acupuncture is not used for emergency surgery and often is accompanied by local anesthesia or narcotic medication [6].

How acupuncture may relieve pain is unclear. One theory suggests that pain impulses are blocked from reaching the spinal cord or brain at various "gates" to these areas. Another theory suggests that acupuncture stimulates the body to produce narcotic-like substances called endorphins, which reduce pain. Other theories suggest that the placebo effect, external suggestion (hypnosis), and cultural conditioning are important factors. Melzack and Wall note that pain relief produced by acupuncture can also be produced by many other types of sensory hyperstimulation, such as electricity and heat at acupuncture points and elsewhere in the body. They conclude that "the effectiveness of all of these forms of stimulation indicates that acupuncture is not a magical procedure but only one of many ways to produce analgesia [pain relief] by an intense sensory input." In 1981, the American Medical Association Council on Scientific Affairs noted that pain relief does not occur consistently or reproducibly in most people and does not operate at all in some people [7].

In 1995, George A. Ulett, M.D., Ph.D., Clinical Professor of Psychiatry, University of Missouri School of Medicine, stated that "devoid of metaphysical thinking, acupuncture becomes a rather simple technique that can be useful as a nondrug method of pain control." He believes that the traditional Chinese variety is primarily a placebo treatment, but electrical stimulation of about 80 acupuncture points has been proven useful for pain control [8].

The quality of TCM research in China has been extremely poor. A recent analysis of 2,938 reports of clinical trials reported in Chinese medical journals concluded that that no conclusions could be drawn from the vast majority of them. The researchers stated:

In most of the trials, disease was defined and diagnosed according to conventional medicine; trial outcomes were assessed with objective or subjective (or both) methods of conventional medicine, often complemented by traditional Chinese methods. Over 90% of the trials in non-specialist journals evaluated herbal treatments that were mostly proprietary Chinese medicines. . . .

Although methodological quality has been improving over the years, many problems remain. The method of randomisation was often inappropriately described. Blinding was used in only 15% of trials. Only a few studies had sample sizes of 300 subjects or more. Many trials used as a control another Chinese medicine treatment whose effectiveness had often not been evaluated by randomised controlled trials. Most trials focused on short term or intermediate rather than long term outcomes. Most trials did not report data on compliance and completeness of follow up. Effectiveness was rarely quantitatively expressed and reported. Intention to treat analysis was never mentioned. Over half did not report data on baseline characteristics or on side effects. Many trials were published as short reports. Most trials claimed that the tested treatments were effective, indicating that publication bias may be common; a funnel plot of the 49 trials of acupuncture in the treatment of stroke confirmed selective publication of positive trials in the area, suggesting that acupuncture may not be more effective than the control treatments. [9]

Two scientists at the University of Heidelberg have developed a "fake needle" that may enable acupuncture researchers to perform better-designed controlled studies. The device is a needle with a blunt tip that moves freely within a copper handle. When the tip touches the skin, the patient feels a sensation similar to that of an acupuncture needle. At the same time, the visible part of the needle moves inside the handle so it appears to shorten as though penetrating the skin. When the device was tested on volunteers, none suspected that it had not penetrated the skin [10].

In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their "sham acupuncture" technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at the acupuncture point "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized [11]. A subgroup analysis found that vomiting was "significantly reduced" among the acupuncture patients, but the authors correctly noted that this finding might be due to studying multiple outcomes. (As the number of different outcome measures increases, so do the odds that a "statistically significant" finding will be spurious.) This study is important because PONV reduction is one of the few alleged benefits of acupuncture supported by reports in scientific journals. However, the other positive studies were not as tightly controlled..
Risks Exist

Improperly performed acupuncture can cause fainting, local hematoma (due to bleeding from a punctured blood vessel), pneumothorax (punctured lung), convulsions, local infections, hepatitis B (from unsterile needles), bacterial endocarditis, contact dermatitis, and nerve damage. The herbs used by acupuncture practitioners are not regulated for safety, potency, or effectiveness. There is also risk that an acupuncturist whose approach to diagnosis is not based on scientific concepts will fail to diagnose a dangerous condition.

The adverse effects of acupuncture are probably related to the nature of the practitioner's training. A survey of 1,135 Norwegian physicians revealed 66 cases of infection, 25 cases of punctured lung, 31 cases of increased pain, and 80 other cases with complications. A parallel survey of 197 acupuncturists, who are more apt to see immediate complications, yielded 132 cases of fainting, 26 cases of increased pain, 8 cases of pneumothorax, and 45 other adverse results [12]. However, a 5-year study involving 76 acupuncturists at a Japanese medical facility tabulated only 64 adverse event reports (including 16 forgotten needles and 13 cases of transient low blood pressure) associated with 55,591 acupuncture treatments. No serious complications were reported. The researchers concluded that serious adverse reactions are uncommon among acupuncturists who are medically trained [13].

Moe recently, members of the British Acupuncture Council who participated in two prospective studies have reported low complication rates and no serious complications among patients who underwent a total of more than 66,000 treatments 14,15]. An accompany editorial suggests that in competent hands, the likelihood of complcations is small [16]. Since outcome data are not available, the studies cannot compare the balance of risks vs benefit. Nor do the studies take into account the likelihood of misdiagnosis (and failure to seek appropriate medical care) by practitioners who use traditional Chinese methods.
Questionable Standards

In 1971, an acupuncture boom occurred in the United States because of stories about visits to China by various American dignitaries. Entrepreneurs, both medical and nonmedical, began using flamboyant advertising techniques to promote clinics, seminars, demonstrations, books, correspondence courses, and do-it-yourself kits. Today some states restrict the practice of acupuncture to physicians or others operating under their direct supervision. In about 20 states, people who lack medical training can perform acupuncture without medical supervision. The FDA now classifies acupuncture needles as Class II medical devices and requires labeling for one-time use by practitioners who are legally authorized to use them [17]. Acupuncture is not covered under Medicare. The March 1998 issue of the Journal of the American Chiropractic Association carried a five-part cover story encouraging chiropractors to get acupuncture training, which, according to one contributor, would enable them to broaden the scope of their practice [18].

The National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (NCCAOM) has set voluntary certification standards and certified several thousand practitioners. By November 1998, 32 states had licensing laws, with 29 of them using NCCAOM examination as all or part of their educational, training, or examination requirement, and three with addditional eligibility criteria. The credentials used by acupuncturists include C.A. (certified acupuncturist), Lic. Ac. (licensed acupuncturist), M.A. (master acupuncturist), Dip. Ac. (diplomate of acupuncture), and O.M.D. (doctor of Oriental medicine). Some of these have legal significance, but they do not signify that the holder is competent to make adequate diagnoses or render appropriate treatment.

In 1990, the U.S. Secretary of Education recognized what is now called the Accreditation Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine (ACAOM) as an accrediting agency. However, such recognition is not based on the scientific validity of what is taught but upon other criteria [19]. Ulett has noted:

Certification of acupuncturists is a sham. While a few of those so accredited are naive physicians, most are nonmedical persons who only play at being doctor and use this certification as an umbrella for a host of unproven New Age hokum treatments. Unfortunately, a few HMOs, hospitals, and even medical schools are succumbing to the bait and exposing patients to such bogus treatments when they need real medical care.

The National Council Against Health Fraud has concluded:

* Acupuncture is an unproven modality of treatment.
* Its theory and practice are based on primitive and fanciful concepts of health and disease that bear no relationship to present scientific knowledge
* Research during the past 20 years has not demonstrated that acupuncture is effective against any disease.
* Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion, counter-irritation, conditioning, and other psychologic mechanisms.
* The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings,
* Insurance companies should not be required by law to cover acupuncture treatment,
* Licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out.
* Consumers who wish to try acupuncture should discuss their situation with a knowledgeable physician who has no commercial interest [20].

The NIH Debacle

In 1997, a Consensus Development Conference sponsored by the National Institutes of Health and several other agencies concluded that "there is sufficient evidence . . . of acupuncture's value to expand its use into conventional medicine and to encourage further studies of its physiology and clinical value." [21] The panelists also suggested that the federal government and insurance companies expand coverage of acupuncture so more people can have access to it. These conclusions were not based on research done after NCAHF's position paper was published. Rather, they reflected the bias of the panelists who were selected by a planning committee dominated by acupuncture proponents [22]. NCAHF board chairman Wallace Sampson, M.D., has described the conference "a consensus of proponents, not a consensus of valid scientific opinion."

Although the report described some serious problems, it failed to place them into proper perspective. The panel acknowledged that "the vast majority of papers studying acupuncture consist of case reports, case series, or intervention studies with designs inadequate to assess efficacy" and that "relatively few" high-quality controlled trials have been published about acupuncture's effects. But it reported that "the World Health Organization has listed more than 40 [conditions] for which [acupuncture] may be indicated." This sentence should have been followed by a statement that the list was not valid.

Far more serious, although the consensus report touched on Chinese acupuncture theory, it failed to point out the danger and economic waste involved in going to practitioners who can't make appropriate diagnoses. The report noted:

* The general theory of acupuncture is based on the premise that there are patterns of energy flow (Qi) through the body that are essential for health. Disruptions of this flow are believed to be responsible for disease. The acupuncturist can correct imbalances of flow at identifiable points close to the skin.
* Acupuncture focuses on a holistic, energy-based approach to the patient rather than a disease-oriented diagnostic and treatment model.
* Despite considerable efforts to understand the anatomy and physiology of the "acupuncture points," the definition and characterization of these points remains controversial. Even more elusive is the scientific basis of some of the key traditional Eastern medical concepts such as the circulation of Qi, the meridian system, and the five phases theory, which are difficult to reconcile with contemporary biomedical information but continue to play an important role in the evaluation of patients and the formulation of treatment in acupuncture.

Simply stated, this means that if you go to a practitioner who practices traditional Chinese medicine, you are unlikely to be properly diagnosed.
Diagnostic Studies

In 1998, following his lecture at a local college, an experienced TCM practitioner diagnosed me by taking my pulse and looking at my tongue. He stated that my pulse showed signs of "stress" and that my tongue indicated I was suffering from "congestion of the blood." A few minutes later, he examined a woman and told her that her pulse showed premature ventricular contractions (a disturbance of the heart's rhythm that could be harmless or significant, depending on whether the individual has underlying heart disease). He suggested that both of us undergo treatment with acupuncture and herbs -- which would have cost about $90 per visit. I took the woman's pulse and found that it was completely normal. I believe that the majority of nonmedical acupuncturists rely on improper diagnostic procedures. The NIH consensus panel should have emphasized the seriousness of this problem.

A study published in 2001 illustrates the absurdity of TCM practices. A 40-year-old woman with chronic back pain who visited seven acupuncturists during a two-week period was diagnosed with "Qi stagnation" by 6 of them, "blood stagnation" by 5 , "kidney Qi deficiency" by 2, "yin deficiency" by 1, and "liver Qi deficiency" by 1. The proposed treatments varied even more. Among the six who recorded their recommendations, the practitioners planned to use between 7 and 26 needles inserted into 4 to 16 specific "acupuncture points" in the back, leg, hand, and foot. Of 28 acupuncture points selected, only 4 (14%) were prescribed by two or more acupuncturists. [23] The study appears to have been designed to make the results as consistent as possible. All of the acupuncturists had been trained at a school of traditional Chinese medicine (TCM). Six other volunteers were excluded because they "used highly atypical practices," and three were excluded because they had been in practice for less than three years. Whereas science-based methods are thoroughly studied to ensure that they are reliable, this appears to be the first published study that examines the consistency of TCM diagnosis or treatment. I would expect larger studies to show that TCM diagnoses are meaningless and have little or nothing to do with the patient's health status. The study's authors state that the diagnostic findings showed "considerable consistency" because nearly all of the practitioners found Qi or blood stagnation. However, the most likely explanation is that these are diagnosed in nearly everyone. It would be fascinating to see what would happen if a healthy person was examined by multiple acupuncturists.

My personal thoughts are that acupuncture is useful for some pain control, I'm not sure if the gate theory applies or not, but the effect seems to be the same. I can do this on myself with very mild stimulation right between my eyes when I have a migrane. Of course also mild finger nail scratching on the back of my neck does this too (thanks honey).

People will claim and swear by a lot of "medicine" which isn't really medicine. Look at some of the laughable western theories, prior to the scientific revolution. Black bile, evil spirits, vapors, blood letting, and the like we laugh at now, but they were sworn by at the time.

When treatement results are not reproduceable, not able to stand up to a double blind study, not even close to agreed upon by 'experts' its not a valid treatment.

ShaniFaye · 04-20-2006, 12:19 PM

I read that too.....its from that quackwatch site.

Its hard for me to argue with the results of it though when Im with two guys going thru it mon-fri and I know what they were like before and I know what they are like now. Thats pretty much all the *case study* I need

Ustwo · 04-20-2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I read that too.....its from that quackwatch site.

Its hard for me to argue with the results of it though when Im with two guys going thru it mon-fri and I know what they were like before and I know what they are like now. Thats pretty much all the *case study* I need

Such is the thinking that keeps Chiropractors busy too.

If it works in your head, it works, and thats all that really matters for most of this.

hunnychile · 04-20-2006, 04:50 PM

12 years ago, I used to get the worst migraine headaches ever! I went to an accupuncturist in Tiburon, CA. and she helped me immensely. She had been trained in China and Thailand and knew exactly what she needed to do to heal me of this major health problem. I am a total believer that accupucture works. It doesn't hurt at all, in fact some of the "points" she hit prior to the final cure made me feel fantastic. And BTW, the needles she used where steril and disposable, which I demand when being accupuntured. I never get migraines any more & I am so happy & relieved that I got the treatment.

PM me if you want details. It is a healing treatment that has been used successfully for over 3,000 years.

Ustwo · 04-20-2006, 10:12 PM

http://skepdic.com/acupunc.html

A little more for you.

And I just found this

Quote:

Acupuncture for Patients With Migraine

A Randomized Controlled Trial

Klaus Linde, MD; Andrea Streng, PhD; Susanne Jürgens, MSc; Andrea Hoppe, MD; Benno Brinkhaus, MD; Claudia Witt, MD; Stephan Wagenpfeil, PhD; Volker Pfaffenrath, MD; Michael G. Hammes, MD; Wolfgang Weidenhammer, PhD; Stefan N. Willich, MD, MPH; Dieter Melchart, MD

JAMA. 2005;293:2118-2125.

Context Acupuncture is widely used to prevent migraine attacks, but the available evidence of its benefit is scarce.

Objective To investigate the effectiveness of acupuncture compared with sham acupuncture and with no acupuncture in patients with migraine.

Design, Setting, and Patients Three-group, randomized, controlled trial (April 2002-January 2003) involving 302 patients (88% women), mean (SD) age of 43 (11) years, with migraine headaches, based on International Headache Society criteria. Patients were treated at 18 outpatient centers in Germany.

Interventions Acupuncture, sham acupuncture, or waiting list control. Acupuncture and sham acupuncture were administered by specialized physicians and consisted of 12 sessions per patient over 8 weeks. Patients completed headache diaries from 4 weeks before to 12 weeks after randomization and from week 21 to 24 after randomization.

Main Outcome Measures Difference in headache days of moderate or severe intensity between the 4 weeks before and weeks 9 to 12 after randomization.

Results Between baseline and weeks 9 to 12, the mean (SD) number of days with headache of moderate or severe intensity decreased by 2.2 (2.7) days from a baseline of 5.2 (2.5) days in the acupuncture group compared with a decrease to 2.2 (2.7) days from a baseline of 5.0 (2.4) days in the sham acupuncture group, and by 0.8 (2.0) days from a baseline if 5.4 (3.0) days in the waiting list group. No difference was detected between the acupuncture and the sham acupuncture groups (0.0 days, 95% confidence interval, –0.7 to 0.7 days; P = .96) while there was a difference between the acupuncture group compared with the waiting list group (1.4 days; 95% confidence interval; 0.8-2.1 days; P<.001). The proportion of responders (reduction in headache days by at least 50%) was 51% in the acupuncture group, 53% in the sham acupuncture group, and 15% in the waiting list group.

Conclusion Acupuncture was no more effective than sham acupuncture in reducing migraine headaches although both interventions

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content...ct/293/17/2118

Just a quick translation for those who don't speak researchese, what they found was that 51% of those who got acupuncture had some migrane relief while 15% of those with no treatment did. Sounds good until you see that 53% of those who THOUGHT they were getting acupuncture but were not, had migrane relief. This would be very normal for a plecebo effect.

You know this is a bit of a red pill blue pill moment for me here (and I'm not even a matrix fan). By presenting the known facts around acupunture, I am in fact lowering others faith in it and reducing the placebo effect. So while I may be upset with practitioners who make insane claims of what they can do (even treating aids with acupuncture) and I'd hope that anyone with a serious problem would see a real doctor. For things like chronic pain, which medicine is not able to handle well, it does make some people feel better and who cares if its all in their head.

Therefore: If you are going for pain therapy forget what I posted, (provided the nature of the pain is understood). If you are going for a serious medical condition don't forget what I posted.

02-02-2005, 06:28 PM	#1 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	Acupuncture Anyone ever tried acupuncture? I have a strong desire to try it. Even though I don't really believe in it as a curative process. I pretty much believe that it is a placebo, but I've still got a strong desire to give it a shot. Not sure what is drawing me to it. Over all I don't like needles. But, it seems like it would be relaxing and I have been pretty stressed out lately. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

02-02-2005, 09:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	It depends on what you're having it done for. There are studies that have shown it to be as effective as "conventional" treatments for a number of ailments - I can't think what they were offhand, but the studies were pretty convincing. Whether the mechanism by which it's effective is placebo or something else, the effects (at least in these cases that were studied) were real and lasting. If you're just going for relaxation, it can't hurt. If you're going for some other reason, to treat a specific ailment, do your research first to see if it's been shown to be effective as a treatment for that ailment. Good luck - interested to hear how it goes! __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

02-02-2005, 11:29 PM	#4 (permalink)
munchen Crazy Location: Sudbury, Ontario	There is some science behind this. I dont really know excatly how it works but I think it has to do with the different nerve plexus and how they stimulate eachother and the nervous system. I know it does work but probably not to the extent they claim __________________ "Love is a perky elf dancing a merry little jig and then suddenly he turns on you with a miniature machine gun" -Matt Groening

02-06-2005, 09:28 AM	#5 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	I found the number of a good accupuncturist (sp?). She's highly recomended by the folks that've tried it. I'm going to call on Monday for an appointment. I'll let you know what I think. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

02-06-2005, 12:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
Ella Ella Bo Bella Location: Australia	I've only tried it once for an incredibly sore neck that massage nor other therapies would fix. And the effect was almost immediate. I'd do it again in an instant if I had to. __________________ "Afterwards, the universe will explode for your pleasure."

02-02-2005, 08:23 PM	#2 (permalink)
Squishor Frontal Lobe Location: California	Try it! I've done it a lot, it can be very relaxing.

02-07-2005, 12:21 PM	#7 (permalink)
larny Upright Location: Scotland	i want to try it but i dont how it can work, can anybody tell me how it works?

02-17-2005, 05:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	The theory about how it works is that there the nerves can only transmit a small amount of information because of their limited capacity. When you transmit signals that override your pain (back ache, headache, arthitis, etc), it blocks the signals from reaching your brain. There's othe theories about how it works as well. One I've heard has to do with the bodies electromagnetic fields. Studies have shown that acupuncturists that display a strong sense of "mysticism" have better results than those that have a clinical approach. That does imply a placebo effect. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

02-17-2005, 05:13 PM	#9 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Manuel Hong shall be in here shortly to tell you everything you need to know. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

02-21-2005, 08:19 AM	#11 (permalink)
izzzzy Crazy Location: SW NEW HAMPSHIRE	I went to the accupuncturist for tennis elbow .I couldnt hold 5 lb. materielin my right hand.4 treatments@40bucks each. Worth every nickel. First he massages the affected area then they put several pins in and then he attatches little clips with wires connected to a electrical apperatus and you get a very mild current for 1/2 hour, then he takes out the pins then he massages the area again and thats it. depends on what youre going for, but I endorse it. Been pain free for about 4 years now.

02-21-2005, 01:21 PM	#12 (permalink)
ckp Upright Location: Alabama	My wife was working in a library - and on her feet for 10+ hours per day. They were, for various foolish reasons, not allowed to even use a stool behind the desk. Somehow, she got a pinched nerve in her hip. She could not sleep due to the pain, and was in severe pain all day. Since even with insurance, the medical treatment was going to be several thousand dollars out of pocket, we decided to check with a local acupuncturist. He indicated, after a short exam, that he could take care of her in two sessions, at a total cost of $250. We figured that it was worth a gamble. After the first session, she was significantly improved, and the since the second session, she's only had an occasional twinge from the nerve. This was about two years ago. I don't think that's a scientific testimonial, but in that case, for that particular problem, acupuncture worked spectacularly well. For another pain-related problem, I would definitely take her back (or me, if I had such a problem). For what it's worth, this fellow specialized in smoking cessation. Apparently for a rather small fee, he would stick needles in you and you'd no longer crave cigarettes. Word is it worked well, but I can't speak to that particular application.

02-21-2005, 09:21 PM	#13 (permalink)
archpaladin Crazy	There are recorded cases of acupuncture working on dogs. If acupuncture truely was just a placebo effect there couldn't be any improvement possible in animals because you can't get across to the animal that what you're doing is supposed to be helpful. The 'gate theory', which states that acupuncture works because stimulation of one section of the nervous system inhibits the effect of another part of the nervous system, is plausible but I don't think it's very likely. Locations where needles are inserted do not always correspond to the locations of major nerves. The theory behind acupuncture that I believe is correct involves the human body's bioelectrical fields. Needles are inserted at places where the body has a high electrical conductance, and this alters the conductance just slightly in this area, making it more receptive. Since the electrical fields in different parts of the body are subtly interconnected, a slight change in one area can produce a noticable change in another area. This in turn can promote healing and restoration. That's about the $0.02 explanation. I could go on if people really wanted but I suggest that those who are interested in the theory should find an acupuncturist and ask questions face to face.

03-01-2005, 07:01 AM	#14 (permalink)
portereight Crazy	My sister is a physiotherapist. She received training for acupuncture as part of her degree. Recently she treated my wife who had a chronic headache/neck problem. She really pulled back the curtain on how this stuff works. For most acupuncture the points are actually related to muscles more than nerves. The needle stimulates the muscle in a similar way to a massage, but at a much deeper more localized level. When beginning treatment the needle often causes an increase in symptomatic pain, which is an indication of it being in the right spot. As the needle does it's magic that pain/tension will decrease and the acupuncturist will probably insert the needle a little further until the symptom returns. Subsequent treatments are usually come with more relief. For most muscle/tension/headache/overuse type of treatments the needles are just left in for 15 minutes and the treatment is repeated 3-4 times a week. Now having said this my sister said that the woman who taught them was a doctor of Chinese medicine and they have a different understanding of what is going on than western medicine. She was taught that she was controlling the flow of "chi" or energy, and that symptom is trapped or impeded chi. The pain caused my the initial needle is good chi, and so on. Chinese medicine can use acupuncture effectively to treat things that western medicine wouldn't. An example is that a Chinese practitioner uses meridians or points that relate to the internal organs that western practitioners of acupuncture don't usually recognize. If you do seek treatment, a good practitioner will guide you through the reference points and "map" they use to find the points, and show you how to find them yourself. They should also show you some simple exercises to help with the same muscle structures (or chi flow if that is their training). Once at home you can either find these points yourself and stimulate them with finger pressure or better yet have your partner do it while you relax. Some people also have an electrical currant applied to the needles. This is essentially the same thing as the needle itself, but "turned up to 11" the current causes the muscle to contract slightly. The current may either be continuous or applied in a rhythmic pattern. Kinda like an internal massage thrown in for good measure. Last edited by portereight; 03-01-2005 at 07:05 AM..

03-03-2005, 01:35 PM	#15 (permalink)
Manuel Hong Addict Location: Land of the puny, wimpy states	OOps, I'm late! Sorry, I just found this thread. While I'm not an acupuncturist, I do have a Chinese medical practice. There are two pillars of Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): herbal medicine and acupuncture. Both traditions are 3,000 years old and have been continuing to develop in that time, much longer than conventional allopathic medicine which is about 150 years old at best. TCM uses techniques to bring the body back into a state of balance. The substances in the body are Blood, Qi (pronounced chee, it's your body's energy), Jing (sort of like hormones, but different), and Shen (like spirit). Acupuncture is a method of inserting needles on points along meridians (energy pathways) in the body. The needles serve to move obstruction (often manifesting as pain or other types of stagnation), enhace Qi to an area, and balance the internal organs. More from my brochure: TCM is a system of diagnosing and healing that is over two thousand years old. The theory developed from the most basic concepts of Eastern thought: Yin/Yang and the concept of Qi (chee). Qi is the Essence of energy that all things in our universe draw upon in every moment. Yin/Yang is a familiar symbol [ that represents forces that are equal and opposite. These forces create or destroy balance and harmony in the body. The tools used to treat disorders, such as herbs and energy manipulation, are used to achieve a balancing effect on each person in their individuality. In TCM the practitioner will observe the client’s facial tone and color, the condition of their nails and flesh, their ease of movement, the brightness of their eyes as well as listen to the tone of their voice, what they say and how they say it. A practitioner of TCM will note any unusual odors and ask many questions surrounding not only the nature of the problem, but also regarding routine functions of the body such as diet, rest, exercise, menses, elimination and more. Essential to the diagnosis is the methods of pulse taking and the examination of the tongue. Both are ancient techniques that give an abundance of valuable information to the practitioner regarding the conditions of the vital organs, the blood, the Qi and other key pieces of information necessary for a complete and accurate picture of the client’s state of health. The goal of the treatment is to bring the body to a state of balance. I don't want to make this too long or give a basic lesson on how TCM works or why as there is loads of info available on the net. Suffice to say, I'm very successful in my practice treating a wide range of problems that conventional medicine can't help. I've been blessed by brilliant mentors and teachers as well as extended study in Beijing. The docs over there are doing some amazing things!!!!! IMO, this form of medicine is far superior to anything modern med has to offer, and there are no side effects. As with regular doctors, you need to trust your practitioner and know that they received proper training and have put in many clinical hours. There are some MD's that practice acupuncture, but have only received minimal training and have no concept of the theories underlying the treatment protocol. Did I miss anything? I hope I answered your questions...if not let me know what else you'd like to know. __________________ Believe nothing, even if I tell it to you, unless it meets with your own good common sense and experience. - Siddhartha Gautama (The Buddha) Last edited by Manuel Hong; 03-03-2005 at 01:38 PM..

03-25-2005, 01:12 PM	#17 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Anyone have experience with acupuncture being used to treat allergies? I have the most severe allergies of anyone that I or my friends know of. Pets, pollen, dust - you name it and it starts me to sneezing something fierce. My friend recently told me that he knows of two people who used acupuncture for allergies and both were successful. One was a new age type of girl and the other was extremely skeptical. So they went into acupuncture in as different mindsets as are possible. Anyone here have first hand information about this? Last edited by Coppertop; 03-25-2005 at 01:55 PM..

04-20-2006, 11:15 AM	#22 (permalink)
Sultana Falling Angel Location: L.A. L.A. land	I'd love to know if this helps allergies. __________________ "Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come." - Matt Groening My goal? To fulfill my potential.

03-25-2005, 01:50 PM	#18 (permalink)
2sheds Crazy Location: dfw - texas	there's clinical evidence to support it's benefit in pain management. my insurance actually covers it. as for stopping smoking, losing weight, or alergies - i'm not aware of any literature, but i have my doubts. __________________ Depression is just anger without enthusiasm. It’s having an empty beer bottle but no one to throw it at.

04-01-2005, 10:58 PM	#19 (permalink)
lordkos Upright	I get it done everytime i go to the chiropractor(i hate spelling) Ill get it doen with a needle and other times they have this little machine that they put a qtip on the end and its just like the needle...but sometimes it shocks you and it hurts haha

04-20-2006, 10:14 AM	#20 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I was going to start a thread on this, but I found this one first so Im dredging it up. Two guys here at work have been having this done and they swear by it. One of them has the exact same type of lower back pain that I do, caused by walking on floors like at home depot or walmart or grocery stores, or standing for even 10 minutes at a time. These activities can put us down for days at a time. He had a sucession of 10 visits (last one in feburary) and it appears to have worked for him, he has had no reoccurence at all. I've got a call into her to get an appt to see if it works for me!! __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

04-20-2006, 10:45 AM	#21 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	My dad had major back problems and decided to go with acupuncture for pain management in the months leading up to his major back surgery. He found it quite helpful. Now, my dad is the biggest skeptic in the world and totally not into anything he might think is "New Age-y", so if it worked for him I can only assume it would work for others. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

04-20-2006, 12:19 PM	#24 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I read that too.....its from that quackwatch site. Its hard for me to argue with the results of it though when Im with two guys going thru it mon-fri and I know what they were like before and I know what they are like now. Thats pretty much all the case study I need __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

04-20-2006, 04:50 PM	#26 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	12 years ago, I used to get the worst migraine headaches ever! I went to an accupuncturist in Tiburon, CA. and she helped me immensely. She had been trained in China and Thailand and knew exactly what she needed to do to heal me of this major health problem. I am a total believer that accupucture works. It doesn't hurt at all, in fact some of the "points" she hit prior to the final cure made me feel fantastic. And BTW, the needles she used where steril and disposable, which I demand when being accupuntured. I never get migraines any more & I am so happy & relieved that I got the treatment. PM me if you want details. It is a healing treatment that has been used successfully for over 3,000 years. __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB