Editorial: Why Males Don't Go to College - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Sparhawk · 11-18-2003, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Why Males Don't Go to College

By Glenn Sacks

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As the percentage of males on our college campuses continues to decline, many observers are finally beginning to ask questions. Much of the discussion has focused on the fact that boys at all levels K-12 have fallen seriously behind their female counterparts, and how our schools are not meeting boys' needs. This discussion of males' educational problems—particularly the problems of low-income and minority males—is long overdue, and boys' sagging educational performance is one of the main reasons for the increasing disappearance of male students from our college campuses.

However, there is another, unacknowledged reason why some males don't go to college—rampant anti-male feminism has made college campuses a place where many males feel unwanted and unwelcome. To use a feminist term, our universities have become "hostile environments" for young men.

To illustrate, let's look at one campus—the University of California at Los Angeles, 1999-2001. Sensationalized lies about men—what dissident feminist Christina Hoff Sommers and others call "Hate Statistics"—were an integral part of the campus culture. The Women's Resource Center (later renamed the Center for Women and Men), the Clothesline Project, and others publicized previously discredited claims such as: "One in four college women has been the victim of rape or attempted rape" and "domestic violence is the leading cause of injury to women aged 15 to 44."

Worse, such statistics were repeated ad infinitum and ad nauseam by the campus newspaper, the Daily Bruin, and also by both professors and students. The message behind the lies was clear—men are so powerful and despicable, and women are so helpless and victimized, that men had better not dare to complain about anything.

This hostile attitude towards males is manifest in the classroom as well. I recall, for example, my Latin American folklore class, taught by a woman whom we'll call Ms. Smith. Ms. Smith is a kind, gentle, elderly lady whose bigotry nevertheless rings loud and clear. The sometimes subtle, sometimes slap-in-the-face prejudice which males endured in her class is typical of what occurs in many modern university classes.

Early in the semester Ms. Smith informed the class that all folklore was widely believed to be a code of misogyny that was developed and employed by men to suppress women. Ms. Smith did say she considered this to be a slight exaggeration, yet whenever a folktale contained a negative portrayal of a woman, it was cited as evidence of the rampant misogyny in men's dark souls. What Ms. Smith never explained was why this "misogynistic" folklore contained far more negative portrayals of men than of women.

Ms. Smith also informed us that women largely invented folklore, because it was women who had the "long, tiresome, boring jobs" and thus the motivation to invent it. Unanswered were two questions. One, why would we say that folklore was misogynistic if women had in fact, largely invented it? Two, did we really imagine that the men of that era—or at least 98% of them—did not also have "long, tiresome, boring" jobs?

Most of the males sat in the back of Ms. Smith's class, an arrangement which started to feel more and more like the back of the bus. The females in front were fully engaged, enjoying the class and its anti-male tales. Not surprisingly, many of the males were disengaged, and seemed to be there simply to put in their time.

One day, after an hour or so discussing tale after tale where Ms. Smith concluded that the men involved were always wrong or evil or cruel or stupid and the women were always right and good and kind and smart, Ms. Smith began softly describing a soothing tale of a father and his daughter setting off through the woods to go to the big city. "The father....and his daughter....rode together... as they went through the beautiful Spanish countryside," Ms. Smith said softly. I sat back and closed my eyes. "They...were on their way to the big city....the daughter had never seen the city before.....she was happy that her father was taking her..." I imagined a special, loving, father-daughter bond. "…and then.....he rapes her."

Jolted, I sat up. A male in the back of the classroom pushed his heavy book off of the table and it made a loud, crashing sound. An accident? Or the only protest he could make?

I did sometimes protest in Ms. Smith's class and others, but a 6'2" male confronting a female educator about her bigotry, however politely, is quickly perceived as a sexist bully. In addition, tension and arguing make the days and semesters long and hard, and there were times when it was easier to tune out, as so many other males had done.

Part of the reason it is difficult and unpleasant to be a male college student today is that anti-male bigotry pops up by surprise all the time in the most unlikely places. For example, on my Portuguese final we were presented with some disputes and were expected to discuss possible solutions to them in Portuguese. A couple of the problems were between married couples, and in both situations there was a clear person who was right and a clear person who was wrong. The reader can guess the gender of both offenders without my assistance.

In answering one of them, about a husband who was oppressing his wife by not "doing his share" around the house, I explained that numerous studies have shown that, when all work—both housework and breadwinning—is considered, American men are doing at least as much in their households as women are. I also noted that I was unhappy with this negative portrayal of men.

To her credit, the professor graded me fairly and responded to my objection. She explained that my complaint was not valid because men's control of society versus women’s control is so vast that a man's complaints about anti-male prejudice paled in meaning. In other words, it's okay to say whatever you want about men, no matter how unfair, cruel, or inaccurate, because all the man-hate in the world could never amount to more than tugging on Superman's cape.

In the library after Ms. Smith’s class on the day the student dropped the book in protest, I pondered how sad and unfair it was that he and other young men had been branded, stigmatized, and marginalized in the institution which was supposed to enlighten them and set fire to their minds.

I thought of the feminist academics (female and male) who poured their derision upon these college men, knowing that their students could not effectively fight back. I thought of the timid male professors who were so content with their own careers that they were perfectly willing to allow 18 year-old boys to be beat up on rather than jeopardize their own comfort by speaking out. And I asked myself a question which hundreds of thousands of male college students often ask themselves:

"What am I even doing here?"

This just rang very true to me, and I wanted to see what others' opinions were on this topic.

Bloodslick · 11-18-2003, 08:07 AM

I believe that, for a long time after an oppressed group has achieved "equal rights", they will try to make things unbalanced and oppress their oppressors. I feel that there are large groups of women, and of blacks and other minority groups that are actively involved in trying to oppress their oppressors. If I didn't make this very statement, I am certain that someone would accuse me of being a racist or misogynist. (Telling someone that you know what they're going to do next is generally a good way to change their mind.)

Equality would be nice, but it can't and won't happen. One group oppresses another. The second group finally comes into their own and starts subtly, then overtly oppressing the first. The first "takes back" their "rights" and oppresses the second again. We're all descended from apes, and apes are pretty vengeful. So are we.

Sledge · 11-18-2003, 08:46 AM

Yeah, because awareness campaigns are SO OFFENSIVE and stop people from going to college. Yup.

What bothers me about anti-anti-racists and -sexists is that they're prone to confuse awareness with accusation. I happen to be an Asian-American male, attending one of the most liberal universities on the East Coast. So that makes me powerless and oppressed on one hand, and "powerful and despicable" on the other. Splendid. I'm also straight, which I guess makes me two-thirds oppressor.

Fortunately, I'm not moved to cry or drop out when feminist groups or the LGBTA club spread statistics or hold awareness campaigns. Why? Because having more information around is good, and will help people; because I understand that it's not a personal attack on me as a straight man. I wasn't the one doing the raping, but somebody else was, and people should know that. As such, I refuse to be offended.

I'm sorry, but the events described in the article don't strike me as typical of university life. If they were really that commonplace I'd be bothered.

Anyway, I urge the reader to distinguish between reverse oppression and simple awareness of what's going on around campus.

JStrider · 11-18-2003, 08:48 AM

i havnt experienced much of what is described... but then ive also spent most of my classes in the engineering department... which doesnt have many women in it at all...

perhaps its more prevalent in California schools then it is texas schools...

Sledge · 11-18-2003, 08:49 AM

By the way, don't you have to go to college to get a sense of whatever anti-male prejudice there is? How are non-attending males scared away by college prejudice? Are their gentle male souls so sensitive that they can feel the oppression from miles away?

If so, there are plenty of conservative colleges still around. It's hard to generalize about the political atmosphere of universities in general.

numist · 11-18-2003, 08:58 AM

non-attending males may have attended a college before and left because they couldnt hack it, partially due to the environment.

Here in california it does seem to be fairly true, but being an engineer, it balances out pretty evenly.

phukraut · 11-18-2003, 09:00 AM

i have never experienced this, but then i generally stay out of the humanities dept, which has a more open-ended interpretive approach to education. the maths and sciences tend to be "this is it, there's no male or female issues about it." as for medicine, i don't know if it's the same.

if this author wants to convince me that there is a problem, he needs to show me the statistical studies that imply it. i just don't see it.

Bloodslick · 11-18-2003, 09:09 AM

Sledge, what is good about spreading an incorrect statistic? The author complains about the spreading of discredited claims.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sledge
By the way, don't you have to go to college to get a sense of whatever anti-male prejudice there is? How are non-attending males scared away by college prejudice?

Here are two words I'd like to introduce. I think they'll help answer those questions. communication and empathy

Sledge · 11-18-2003, 09:48 AM

You're right, Bloodslick, in that this statistic was incorrect. In that regard, it shouldn't have been spread. But it seemed to me like the author was attacking them because they were statistics, not because they were incorrect.

Can you explain what you mean by communication and empathy? I tend to have trouble extracting meaning from those concept without a proper context. And I still find it hard to believe that men are discouraged from attending university solely because of this militant anti-men bias; it seems like a weak reason to not go.

wraithhibn · 11-18-2003, 12:05 PM

I've encountered some of the anti-male sentiment here at UL. Every year there is an Engineer's Ball for the people in engineering school. And since its like 90% male and 10% female, the student council had a date auction. Is that sexist?

Apparently it is to the feminists, even though they were auctioning both males and females. This one girl wrote into the student paper about how we were demeaning women by reading what they put on their info cards when one included that she liked to "get freaky". The whole feminist group started a big stir over something that might as well been a "geek outreach program".

irseg · 11-18-2003, 12:29 PM

I attended college for 3 years. In my experience, a wide range of opinions and political views were discussed and accepted openly. Unless you happened to hold any views to the right of Karl Marx's, that is.

The daily anti-capitalist and anti-American rants from my humanities professors got old fast. I was paying to learn things, not to hear some bitch liberal frothing at the mouth about how George Bush pisses on poor oppressed companies when she's supposed to be doing her damn job and teaching tech writing.

I dropped out because I could and have learned better on my own in the real world. In a lot of cases college is just a monstrous waste of money and time.

wilbjammin · 11-18-2003, 01:45 PM

As on open forum, I've found that I've seen radical things on the right and left and "other" categories in years I've spent here at the University of Oregon. I think there are a few crazy-ass feminists (I had a class from someone that tried to convince everyone that her view of the world based on eco-feminist Judaism was the best... every male and female in the class felt that she was off-kilter), but, by far, the average student and teacher is much more judicious in their attempts to create forums for discussion. I think one thing that does happen which contributes towards males leaving school from what I've seen, is their laziness. How many guys I have I seen enter college, party every night, slack off on homework and then act like doing poorly in their classes was something that <i>happened</i> to them? I've noticed here that study groups tend to be very female oriented, women here like to study as a social activity. Guys here are more likely to party or watch games together as their social activity. These are vast generalizations, but I would be surprised to hear that someone dropped out of the UO because they felt that they didn't have a voice and that they were targetted. I don't remember ever sitting in a class through all 4 of my undergrad years that was segregated roughly by men and women. Maybe I just lucked out and missed these classes and experiences or somehow ignored them that should have made me feel like I was doing something wrong by simply existing as a male.

skysooner · 11-18-2003, 02:52 PM

I don't see much of it here, but I'm from the conservative middle part of the US. We don't see much radical feminism or radical "maleism". I think the title about my avatar says it all.

Kyo · 11-18-2003, 05:23 PM

Several things:

- In my (admittedly limited) experience with K-12 education a few years ago, males have always been more intelligent than their female counterparts. Before anyone jumps on me, I'm going to quantify what I mean by intelligence - the most successful males had higher average grades than the most successful females. There were significantly more males than females with 4.0 GPAs. About a dozen males (out of a class of 100) were widely recognized as being remarkably smarter than everyone else, routinely winning physics, math, and computer engineering competitions, always being able to solve the hardest homework problems on their own, being able to derive/prove theorems and properties as they needed them, without consulting textbooks, teachers, or other students. No females fell into this category. While females were generally recognized as harder workers, they were not as 'smart.'

- Not once in my undergraduate study have I seen a single instance of blatant anti-male sentiments.

- All of the females I know think that viewpoints such as "Men are evil oppressors" are utter bullshit, and will be more than happy to tell you why they think so in very colorful language.

gabshu · 11-18-2003, 05:26 PM

Being a woman, I also see this whole issue as being degrading to women. I mean, why is there a women's study department and not men's studies. Ok so most of the people we learn about in class are dead white males, so it would be useful to accept that prior to the 20th century women didn't really have much of a voice. Let's change that now, and reactionary women crap is not the way to do it. If anyone has ever taken a women's study class, they are all about how women made everything happend and there wouldn't be anything in the world if it wasn't because of women. That's such crap. I think we all have to take an objective view here and not get swayed by stupid things like that. Professors that make aggresive comments like that should be reported, or given a very bad evaluation.

Well, to sum this up I don't think many women like to go to a class where they are told obvious misinterpretation of how wonderful we are.

Bloodslick · 11-18-2003, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sledge
By the way, don't you have to go to college to get a sense of whatever anti-male prejudice there is? How are non-attending males scared away by college prejudice?

That quote is what I was referring to. You don't have to go to the accident scene to know there was a five car pileup because of communication. You don't have to have your arm cut off to get an idea of how sucky a situation it is because of empathy. As far as being scared by anti-male sentiments, tactics and demonstrations goes, I don't think it's about fear. I think it's about anger and resentment. Why would I go to a function where I knew the majority of attendees were ready to scream angrily at me as I entered the door? Even if I didn't know at first, walking in to find that was the case would almost certainly drive me away.

It's all well and good to not let others' opinions get to you and to remain neutral when people are being negative, but there's a point where one should stop putting up with it and either end the negativity or end their association with the negative people.

Kyo · 11-18-2003, 09:54 PM

The difference between a function and college is that a college education will actually benefit you, in a major way. It is undeniable that a degree increases your income by a substantial amount, which, taken over the course of 40 or 50 years, becomes a very large difference in total money earned.

I went to college to get a degree. Everything else is trivial. Do the work, get the grade, and get on with your life. If I have to write papers the way the professor wants them to be written, rather than written to reflect what I really think, I'll do it if it gets me a better grade. I'm not going to protest if it's going to cost me points. I'm not going to voice my opinion if it isn't what my professor wants to hear. I'm there to get a good grade, and I am not going to do anything to jeapordize that.

Similarly, if you want a degree bad enough, no amount of anti-male sentiment is going to stop you. I will admit at this point that haveing never experienced such sentiments myself, it is easy to say this. But it appears to me to be a weak excuse nonetheless. I can imagine being the target of what is described in the article, and quite frankly, I wouldn't be bothered if I was called a rapist every day of my life by every girl I passed, so long as I was never actually arrested or detained for the accusation.

redravin40 · 11-18-2003, 09:56 PM

Welcome to the counter attack.
We are watching the efforts of equality and ethics that came about in the late 60's and early 70's being shredded by the revisionists.
I am a lot less afraid and offended by radical feminists then I am of the people who would like it to be the 1950's again.
The college scene is by in large still controlled by the good old boy network even if the outer trappings are made to look nice and liberal.
It is easier to marginalize and ghettoize anyone who is trying to make reasonable changes then it is to listen to them.
I was on the local campus and the security guard pointed with pride to the 'protest yard'.
This was where they would put anyone who was marching or protesting problems at the school or in the community (like the 'hunting' of native woman with paint-ball guns).
These kinds of articles come with little empirical evidence and are mostly made up of opinion and innuendo.

Sledge · 11-18-2003, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bloodslick
That quote is what I was referring to. You don't have to go to the accident scene to know there was a five car pileup because of communication. You don't have to have your arm cut off to get an idea of how sucky a situation it is because of empathy. As far as being scared by anti-male sentiments, tactics and demonstrations goes, I don't think it's about fear. I think it's about anger and resentment. Why would I go to a function where I knew the majority of attendees were ready to scream angrily at me as I entered the door? Even if I didn't know at first, walking in to find that was the case would almost certainly drive me away.

I agree with you that social injustice is often fought back, inappropriately, with more social injustice. As if racism or sexism could be "counterbalanced" with more racism and sexism, but from the other side. As such, I wouldn't attend such a function either.

It's just that I've never been to such a function, I've never heard of such a function, and I suspect that people who are crying "anti-male" are really getting defensive about something else - the challenge to their political or religious beliefs, perhaps? I don't know. "Anti-male" is not something that I've had experience with, and I attend what might be the single most liberal university in the northeast. Anti-chauvinism? Anti-gender-discrimination? Anti-date-rape? Sure. But let's not confuse them with "you're unwelcome here because you're a man." People who are of collegiate age should be able to distinguish between awareness and accusation.

Furthermore, I find it difficult to believe that this hypothetical "anti-male sentiment" should be substantial enough a part of college life to turn people away. There's so much more to do and to think about, and it's very easy to avoid political confrontation on even the most vocal campuses. Whether or not anti-male sentiment exists, it's not The Reason that less men are attending university.

Rodney · 11-19-2003, 06:04 AM

Yawn. I've been to college 30 years ago, and I've been to college now. Nothing has changed. The point is that colleges are tenure-based hierarchies in which professors with tenure can do what they want and say what they want. Thirty years ago, I took a lot of political science courses in a department run by an extremely conservative guy who only liked to give tenure to people who agreed with him. We a few liberal instructors, but mainly as nontenured lecturers.

Now, 30 years later, the worm has turned and the old guys (or girls) in charge are liberals, and you young conservatives are talking about how unfair and awful it is and that's why you dropped out of college. Yeah, right.

The point is that college is a very conservative institution, and always has been, in the sense that once somebody gets tenure they can pretty much do and say as they want without fear; and they don't have to be reasonable, if they don't want to. 30 years ago, the conservatives who'd gotten tenure in the 40s and 50s were in charge, even though I thought they were out of step with the times. Now, in the new millenium, you all think it's horrible that libs who got in 30 years ago are in charge. But it's just the nature of the beast.

Sparhawk · 11-19-2003, 11:33 AM

The decreasing number of men students over the past 40 years is a fact, this editorial was an attempt at one explanation. Does anyone have anymore explanations?

twotimesadingo · 11-19-2003, 01:26 PM

I remember reading a U.S. News & World Report article which mentioned that being a white male is the worst job bracket to be in nowadays, based on the Equal Opportunity quotas and whatnot.
Honestly, I'm not sure how true this is, but I can see it as being the case....

Rodney · 11-19-2003, 03:42 PM

Actually, if you read the original article, there's no declining number of men on campus; there's a declining _percentage_ of men in college student bodies nationwide. Which mainly means that more women are going in.

What the article doesn't say, is that a lot of the increase in college women comes in two-year programs at the community college level. Community college in many areas is the main vocational training institution. A lot of decent paying careers that women are easily accepted in now require a two-year degree: real estate, bookkeeping, vocational nursing, landscaping, dental hygienist, cosmetology, legal studies or AJ, and more. And all the women enrolled in these programs count as college students in the stats that are being quoted. This is according to another article that I read recently, based on the same information. If you take all the two-year-degree women and men out of the equation, the proportions of men and women are a lot more equal. Because non-college men have more access better-paying jobs than women without formal training (or with non-college voc-ed training). More men can work in construction, trucking, manufacturing, etc. They can get $15-25 for that work. But for most women to get a job making that money, they need the two-year college programs.

lurkette · 11-19-2003, 07:20 PM

Yawn. This argument is so far off base it's not even worth picking apart. But I'm going to do it anyhow.

- Just to reiterate, Rodney's excellent point, there is no declining NUMBER of men in college, it's an increase in the number of women leading to a decreased PERCENTAGE of men. That alone should be enough to call "bullshit" on the article. It's suggesting a spurious explanation for a phenomenon that doesn't even exist.

- While there may be "rampant anti-male sentiment" on some campuses, I hardly think the addition of some feminist studies courses and date rape awareness campaigns = rampant anti-male sentiment. Like it or not, it's the marketplace of ideas, and radical feminism is one of those ideas competing with others. Doesn't make it true, doesn't mean the people exposed to it believe it, and doesn't mean it has an effect on college attendance. And how do you explain the performance of boys in K-12 before they're exposed to the rampantly anti-male college campus? Bleedover into the culture? Please.

- When will cultural critics learn to SHOW ME THE FUCKING DATA. Want to know why there are fewer men on campus (which there aren't, see first point above)? ASK THEM. Where's the ethnography? Where are the opinion surveys, the focus groups, etc.? This is just somebody with an ax to grind touting a lame-ass and badly supported opinion as fact.

Seaver · 11-22-2003, 07:58 PM

Anti-Masculinity DOES exist on campuses....

For my Child-Psych class I had a radical feminist. I put up with most of the things she'd say offhand just because I tend to have a lot of patience... but as the year went on my patience started to be pulled thin.

The ONLY time the father was EVER mensioned in this class was during divorces (of course), and that was only to say the father almost never pays child support or visits his children (no stats or evidence to back up was given).

The ONLY time male-children were mensioned was to state that they were more aggressive and violent, and that they tended to resist authority more. I would be ok with more violent but she refused to define "aggressive" when I asked her to.

She never said anything directly saying that men were worse than women but it was MORE than implied.

If any male professor would have said anything close to this about females they would be immediately fired. This prof was given a promotion the following semester.

wilbjammin · 11-23-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Seaver
Anti-Masculinity DOES exist on campuses....

For my Child-Psych class I had a radical feminist. [...]

No one is arguing that there aren't radicals on each side out there... sometimes you are going to face views that you don't agree with on either side. That is what college is about, exposure, challenges, and making the most of it - learning. Just because this person exists, does that make it the norm? Singular cases do not make precedents.

Sledge · 11-23-2003, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by wilbjammin
No one is arguing that there aren't radicals on each side out there... sometimes you are going to face views that you don't agree with on either side. That is what college is about, exposure, challenges, and making the most of it - learning. Just because this person exists, does that make it the norm? Singular cases do not make precedents.

Amen. And let's not pretend that gender discrimination against females doesn't exist on-campus, either. Even at my goddamn liberal university, all the women I know in the science and math departments are treated a little differently than the men. My amazingly smart friend needs to prove herself again and again to the professors and advisors whose permission she needs to advance.

bermuDa · 11-23-2003, 07:16 PM

man-hating is just another generalization that retards the progress of so-called "equal rights."

Men have done heinous things, so have women. Blaming the entire group and discriminating against its members is counter-productive.

I haven't seen any overt acts of feminist sexism on my campus, especially from faculty. But then again only about a quarter of my teachers have been female.

Leviathan[NCV] · 11-24-2003, 12:47 PM

There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.

Yes, please, show me the fucking data which can be skewed beyond recognition, and still be 'accurate'.

11-18-2003, 08:48 AM	#4 (permalink)
JStrider Poo-tee-weet? Location: The Woodlands, TX	i havnt experienced much of what is described... but then ive also spent most of my classes in the engineering department... which doesnt have many women in it at all... perhaps its more prevalent in California schools then it is texas schools... __________________ -=JStrider=- ~Clatto Verata Nicto

11-18-2003, 12:05 PM	#10 (permalink)
wraithhibn Dopefish Location: the 'Ville	I've encountered some of the anti-male sentiment here at UL. Every year there is an Engineer's Ball for the people in engineering school. And since its like 90% male and 10% female, the student council had a date auction. Is that sexist? Apparently it is to the feminists, even though they were auctioning both males and females. This one girl wrote into the student paper about how we were demeaning women by reading what they put on their info cards when one included that she liked to "get freaky". The whole feminist group started a big stir over something that might as well been a "geek outreach program". __________________ If you won't dress like the Victoria Secret girls, don't expect us to act like soap opera guys.

11-18-2003, 01:45 PM	#12 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	As on open forum, I've found that I've seen radical things on the right and left and "other" categories in years I've spent here at the University of Oregon. I think there are a few crazy-ass feminists (I had a class from someone that tried to convince everyone that her view of the world based on eco-feminist Judaism was the best... every male and female in the class felt that she was off-kilter), but, by far, the average student and teacher is much more judicious in their attempts to create forums for discussion. I think one thing that does happen which contributes towards males leaving school from what I've seen, is their laziness. How many guys I have I seen enter college, party every night, slack off on homework and then act like doing poorly in their classes was something that <i>happened</i> to them? I've noticed here that study groups tend to be very female oriented, women here like to study as a social activity. Guys here are more likely to party or watch games together as their social activity. These are vast generalizations, but I would be surprised to hear that someone dropped out of the UO because they felt that they didn't have a voice and that they were targetted. I don't remember ever sitting in a class through all 4 of my undergrad years that was segregated roughly by men and women. Maybe I just lucked out and missed these classes and experiences or somehow ignored them that should have made me feel like I was doing something wrong by simply existing as a male. __________________ Innominate.

11-18-2003, 05:23 PM	#14 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	Several things: - In my (admittedly limited) experience with K-12 education a few years ago, males have always been more intelligent than their female counterparts. Before anyone jumps on me, I'm going to quantify what I mean by intelligence - the most successful males had higher average grades than the most successful females. There were significantly more males than females with 4.0 GPAs. About a dozen males (out of a class of 100) were widely recognized as being remarkably smarter than everyone else, routinely winning physics, math, and computer engineering competitions, always being able to solve the hardest homework problems on their own, being able to derive/prove theorems and properties as they needed them, without consulting textbooks, teachers, or other students. No females fell into this category. While females were generally recognized as harder workers, they were not as 'smart.' - Not once in my undergraduate study have I seen a single instance of blatant anti-male sentiments. - All of the females I know think that viewpoints such as "Men are evil oppressors" are utter bullshit, and will be more than happy to tell you why they think so in very colorful language. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

11-18-2003, 05:26 PM	#15 (permalink)
gabshu Psycho Location: The capital of the free world??	Being a woman, I also see this whole issue as being degrading to women. I mean, why is there a women's study department and not men's studies. Ok so most of the people we learn about in class are dead white males, so it would be useful to accept that prior to the 20th century women didn't really have much of a voice. Let's change that now, and reactionary women crap is not the way to do it. If anyone has ever taken a women's study class, they are all about how women made everything happend and there wouldn't be anything in the world if it wasn't because of women. That's such crap. I think we all have to take an objective view here and not get swayed by stupid things like that. Professors that make aggresive comments like that should be reported, or given a very bad evaluation. Well, to sum this up I don't think many women like to go to a class where they are told obvious misinterpretation of how wonderful we are. __________________ Go Kool Aid. OH YEAAHH http://www.retrocrush.com/archive2003/koolaid/

11-18-2003, 08:07 AM	#2 (permalink)
Bloodslick Loser Location: a darkened back alley	I believe that, for a long time after an oppressed group has achieved "equal rights", they will try to make things unbalanced and oppress their oppressors. I feel that there are large groups of women, and of blacks and other minority groups that are actively involved in trying to oppress their oppressors. If I didn't make this very statement, I am certain that someone would accuse me of being a racist or misogynist. (Telling someone that you know what they're going to do next is generally a good way to change their mind.) Equality would be nice, but it can't and won't happen. One group oppresses another. The second group finally comes into their own and starts subtly, then overtly oppressing the first. The first "takes back" their "rights" and oppresses the second again. We're all descended from apes, and apes are pretty vengeful. So are we.

11-18-2003, 08:46 AM	#3 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	Yeah, because awareness campaigns are SO OFFENSIVE and stop people from going to college. Yup. What bothers me about anti-anti-racists and -sexists is that they're prone to confuse awareness with accusation. I happen to be an Asian-American male, attending one of the most liberal universities on the East Coast. So that makes me powerless and oppressed on one hand, and "powerful and despicable" on the other. Splendid. I'm also straight, which I guess makes me two-thirds oppressor. Fortunately, I'm not moved to cry or drop out when feminist groups or the LGBTA club spread statistics or hold awareness campaigns. Why? Because having more information around is good, and will help people; because I understand that it's not a personal attack on me as a straight man. I wasn't the one doing the raping, but somebody else was, and people should know that. As such, I refuse to be offended. I'm sorry, but the events described in the article don't strike me as typical of university life. If they were really that commonplace I'd be bothered. Anyway, I urge the reader to distinguish between reverse oppression and simple awareness of what's going on around campus.

11-18-2003, 08:49 AM	#5 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	By the way, don't you have to go to college to get a sense of whatever anti-male prejudice there is? How are non-attending males scared away by college prejudice? Are their gentle male souls so sensitive that they can feel the oppression from miles away? If so, there are plenty of conservative colleges still around. It's hard to generalize about the political atmosphere of universities in general.

11-18-2003, 08:58 AM	#6 (permalink)
numist Banned Location: UCSD, 510.49 miles from my love	non-attending males may have attended a college before and left because they couldnt hack it, partially due to the environment. Here in california it does seem to be fairly true, but being an engineer, it balances out pretty evenly.

11-18-2003, 09:00 AM	#7 (permalink)
phukraut Addict	i have never experienced this, but then i generally stay out of the humanities dept, which has a more open-ended interpretive approach to education. the maths and sciences tend to be "this is it, there's no male or female issues about it." as for medicine, i don't know if it's the same. if this author wants to convince me that there is a problem, he needs to show me the statistical studies that imply it. i just don't see it.

11-18-2003, 09:48 AM	#9 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	You're right, Bloodslick, in that this statistic was incorrect. In that regard, it shouldn't have been spread. But it seemed to me like the author was attacking them because they were statistics, not because they were incorrect. Can you explain what you mean by communication and empathy? I tend to have trouble extracting meaning from those concept without a proper context. And I still find it hard to believe that men are discouraged from attending university solely because of this militant anti-men bias; it seems like a weak reason to not go.

11-18-2003, 12:29 PM	#11 (permalink)
irseg Junkie Location: Florida	I attended college for 3 years. In my experience, a wide range of opinions and political views were discussed and accepted openly. Unless you happened to hold any views to the right of Karl Marx's, that is. The daily anti-capitalist and anti-American rants from my humanities professors got old fast. I was paying to learn things, not to hear some bitch liberal frothing at the mouth about how George Bush pisses on poor oppressed companies when she's supposed to be doing her damn job and teaching tech writing. I dropped out because I could and have learned better on my own in the real world. In a lot of cases college is just a monstrous waste of money and time.

11-18-2003, 02:52 PM	#13 (permalink)
skysooner Registered User Location: Oklahoma	I don't see much of it here, but I'm from the conservative middle part of the US. We don't see much radical feminism or radical "maleism". I think the title about my avatar says it all.

11-18-2003, 09:54 PM	#17 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	The difference between a function and college is that a college education will actually benefit you, in a major way. It is undeniable that a degree increases your income by a substantial amount, which, taken over the course of 40 or 50 years, becomes a very large difference in total money earned. I went to college to get a degree. Everything else is trivial. Do the work, get the grade, and get on with your life. If I have to write papers the way the professor wants them to be written, rather than written to reflect what I really think, I'll do it if it gets me a better grade. I'm not going to protest if it's going to cost me points. I'm not going to voice my opinion if it isn't what my professor wants to hear. I'm there to get a good grade, and I am not going to do anything to jeapordize that. Similarly, if you want a degree bad enough, no amount of anti-male sentiment is going to stop you. I will admit at this point that haveing never experienced such sentiments myself, it is easy to say this. But it appears to me to be a weak excuse nonetheless. I can imagine being the target of what is described in the article, and quite frankly, I wouldn't be bothered if I was called a rapist every day of my life by every girl I passed, so long as I was never actually arrested or detained for the accusation. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

11-18-2003, 09:56 PM	#18 (permalink)
redravin40 Loser Location: With Jadzia	Welcome to the counter attack. We are watching the efforts of equality and ethics that came about in the late 60's and early 70's being shredded by the revisionists. I am a lot less afraid and offended by radical feminists then I am of the people who would like it to be the 1950's again. The college scene is by in large still controlled by the good old boy network even if the outer trappings are made to look nice and liberal. It is easier to marginalize and ghettoize anyone who is trying to make reasonable changes then it is to listen to them. I was on the local campus and the security guard pointed with pride to the 'protest yard'. This was where they would put anyone who was marching or protesting problems at the school or in the community (like the 'hunting' of native woman with paint-ball guns). These kinds of articles come with little empirical evidence and are mostly made up of opinion and innuendo.

11-19-2003, 06:04 AM	#20 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	Yawn. I've been to college 30 years ago, and I've been to college now. Nothing has changed. The point is that colleges are tenure-based hierarchies in which professors with tenure can do what they want and say what they want. Thirty years ago, I took a lot of political science courses in a department run by an extremely conservative guy who only liked to give tenure to people who agreed with him. We a few liberal instructors, but mainly as nontenured lecturers. Now, 30 years later, the worm has turned and the old guys (or girls) in charge are liberals, and you young conservatives are talking about how unfair and awful it is and that's why you dropped out of college. Yeah, right. The point is that college is a very conservative institution, and always has been, in the sense that once somebody gets tenure they can pretty much do and say as they want without fear; and they don't have to be reasonable, if they don't want to. 30 years ago, the conservatives who'd gotten tenure in the 40s and 50s were in charge, even though I thought they were out of step with the times. Now, in the new millenium, you all think it's horrible that libs who got in 30 years ago are in charge. But it's just the nature of the beast.

11-19-2003, 11:33 AM	#21 (permalink)
Sparhawk Dubya Location: VA	The decreasing number of men students over the past 40 years is a fact, this editorial was an attempt at one explanation. Does anyone have anymore explanations? __________________ "In Iraq, no doubt about it, it's tough. It's hard work. It's incredibly hard. It's - and it's hard work. I understand how hard it is. I get the casualty reports every day. I see on the TV screens how hard it is. But it's necessary work. We're making progress. It is hard work."

11-19-2003, 01:26 PM	#22 (permalink)
twotimesadingo Psycho Location: that place with the thing	I remember reading a *U.S. News & World Report* article which mentioned that being a white male is the worst job bracket to be in nowadays, based on the Equal Opportunity quotas and whatnot. Honestly, I'm not sure how true this is, but I can see it as being the case.... __________________ I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and all your demons. I'll be the one to protect you from a will to survive and voice of reason. I'll be the one to protect you from your enemies and your choices, son. They're one and the same I must isolate you, isolate and save you from yourself." - A Perfect Circle

11-19-2003, 03:42 PM	#23 (permalink)
Rodney Observant Ruminant Location: Rich Wannabe Hippie Town	Actually, if you read the original article, there's no declining number of men on campus; there's a declining _percentage_ of men in college student bodies nationwide. Which mainly means that more women are going in. What the article doesn't say, is that a lot of the increase in college women comes in two-year programs at the community college level. Community college in many areas is the main vocational training institution. A lot of decent paying careers that women are easily accepted in now require a two-year degree: real estate, bookkeeping, vocational nursing, landscaping, dental hygienist, cosmetology, legal studies or AJ, and more. And all the women enrolled in these programs count as college students in the stats that are being quoted. This is according to another article that I read recently, based on the same information. If you take all the two-year-degree women and men out of the equation, the proportions of men and women are a lot more equal. Because non-college men have more access better-paying jobs than women without formal training (or with non-college voc-ed training). More men can work in construction, trucking, manufacturing, etc. They can get $15-25 for that work. But for most women to get a job making that money, they need the two-year college programs.

11-19-2003, 07:20 PM	#24 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Yawn. This argument is so far off base it's not even worth picking apart. But I'm going to do it anyhow. - Just to reiterate, Rodney's excellent point, there is no declining NUMBER of men in college, it's an increase in the number of women leading to a decreased PERCENTAGE of men. That alone should be enough to call "bullshit" on the article. It's suggesting a spurious explanation for a phenomenon that doesn't even exist. - While there may be "rampant anti-male sentiment" on some campuses, I hardly think the addition of some feminist studies courses and date rape awareness campaigns = rampant anti-male sentiment. Like it or not, it's the marketplace of ideas, and radical feminism is one of those ideas competing with others. Doesn't make it true, doesn't mean the people exposed to it believe it, and doesn't mean it has an effect on college attendance. And how do you explain the performance of boys in K-12 before they're exposed to the rampantly anti-male college campus? Bleedover into the culture? Please. - When will cultural critics learn to SHOW ME THE FUCKING DATA. Want to know why there are fewer men on campus (which there aren't, see first point above)? ASK THEM. Where's the ethnography? Where are the opinion surveys, the focus groups, etc.? This is just somebody with an ax to grind touting a lame-ass and badly supported opinion as fact. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

11-22-2003, 07:58 PM	#25 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Anti-Masculinity DOES exist on campuses.... For my Child-Psych class I had a radical feminist. I put up with most of the things she'd say offhand just because I tend to have a lot of patience... but as the year went on my patience started to be pulled thin. The ONLY time the father was EVER mensioned in this class was during divorces (of course), and that was only to say the father almost never pays child support or visits his children (no stats or evidence to back up was given). The ONLY time male-children were mensioned was to state that they were more aggressive and violent, and that they tended to resist authority more. I would be ok with more violent but she refused to define "aggressive" when I asked her to. She never said anything directly saying that men were worse than women but it was MORE than implied. If any male professor would have said anything close to this about females they would be immediately fired. This prof was given a promotion the following semester.

11-23-2003, 07:16 PM	#28 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	man-hating is just another generalization that retards the progress of so-called "equal rights." Men have done heinous things, so have women. Blaming the entire group and discriminating against its members is counter-productive. I haven't seen any overt acts of feminist sexism on my campus, especially from faculty. But then again only about a quarter of my teachers have been female. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

11-24-2003, 12:47 PM	#29 (permalink)
Leviathan[NCV] Well... Location: afk	There are lies, damned lies, and statistics. Yes, please, show me the fucking data which can be skewed beyond recognition, and still be 'accurate'.