How much respect do military members deserve? - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

sapiens · 01-12-2010, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Teufel Hunden

For the context in which that pic was used, it absolutely matters. Ring made a blanket statement talking about the nature of military training, and that statement is 100% not true anymore. We're taught to be understanding of the culture, not the opposite. The pic of the naked pile of prisoners does nothing to prove otherwise, but instead shows what happens when you have a complete failure of the command structure.

I don't disagree regarding what is explicitly taught during training. However, it is possible that soldiers learn things during training and service that are not explicitly taught. You mentioned that the military spends a lot of effort teaching "cultural awareness" now (Certainly a good thing). Is it possible that the nature of the training and service results in "dehumanizing of the other" independent of the explicit goals of the training and service?

The effort now expended on ""cultural awareness" suggests to me that "dehumanization of the other" might be an unintended side effect that the military is trying to treat. (Again, I don't know if this "dehumanizing the other" is a side effect or if it is, whether or not it is pervasive).

Teufel Hunden · 01-12-2010, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

I don't disagree regarding what is explicitly taught during training. However, it is possible that soldiers learn things during training and service that are not explicitly taught. You mentioned that the military spends a lot of effort teaching "cultural awareness" now (Certainly a good thing). Is it possible that the nature of the training and service results in "dehumanizing of the other" independent of the explicit goals of the training and service?

Absolutely.

I mentioned earlier that dehumanizing is a natural reaction to combat. There's really no way to train around this, as it's just the way your mind overcomes that natural aversion to killing another human being. This same thing happens when someone is put into a dehumanizing situation, like a prison, and also can't be trained around (at least not IMO). Given enough time and control over another person, the guard can stop looking at the prisoner as a person at all. The key to preventing this is good leadership at all levels, which the Abu Ghraib guards had none of. The Stanford Prison Experiment in 1971 really shows what happens when good people are put into certain situations.

Quote:

The effort now expended on ""cultural awareness" suggests to me that "dehumanization of the other" might be an unintended side effect that the military is trying to treat. (Again, I don't know if this "dehumanizing the other" is a side effect or if it is, whether or not it is pervasive).

Hmm. An interesting thought.

Definitely something worth talking about for the military planners.

Seer666 · 01-18-2010, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jinn

I'm really struggling personally giving respect, in any sense of the word, to members of the military. Don't get me wrong, in an abstract sense I respect someone willing to put their lives on the line to truly defend America.

But I can't seem to escape this feeling lately that the military mostly recruits the uneducated or unmotivated to do our "dirty work", ultimately brainwashing them (even in the guise of unit cohesion) into fierce loyalty, unquestioning faith in authority, and the the fact that the US is always right. And interestingly enough, this tends to become conservative political beliefs too..

I know that my experience with military members is probably not indicative of the whole, and the former and current military on TFP seem to largely defy the stereotype. I just have a lot of miltary friends and live in a hugely military city and they all seem to fit the mold.

Recently I met a friend of a friend who was a former Stryker unit leader in the Army, and he made an offhand joke about how a bunch of dead "Hadjis" (Arabs) was a "beautiful" thing. I told him I thought that was inappropriate to say, whether it was a joke or not. He said I couldn't possibly understand as a civilian, and that I shouldn't really question him because he had done far more for the US than I had. He asked me why I was such a pussy, and wanted to know if I was one of those "Obamists" who want to apologize for America.

When I told my friend about it, he echoed the sentiment, and told me I shouldn't question his military friends because I couldn't ever compare to the kind of men they were. My ego was naturally hackled by that attack on my "manliness" and I probably overreacted and told him I was not interested in being friends with someone who would hide behind their uniform or defend those who did simply because they had served. I think I lost a high school friend as a result.

Unfortunately these kinds of conversations are not unique for me and I have been told over and over again that I really have no business talking since I haven't served in the military and because they are out there risking their lives to defend my ability to even make the "cowardly intellectual hippie criticisms."

Should I have let him slide since he was in the military? Am I really less of a man for not serving? Are there some things it is OK for them to do or say since they (admittedly) have probably seen things I will hopefully never see?

I really don't know, because I don't want to disrespect them but I also hate the idea that I can't criticize or even speak because they are such better patriots than I.

How much deference do YOU give members of the military? How much respect do you initially give them?

To start out, it depends on the person. As a former navy man myself, I can understand some of the things said here, such as the dead hadjis comment. Simple truth is that if you have to kill someone, it's easier to not think of them as people. That kind of humor and view point is what allows the fighting man to kill the enemy and not go completely off the deep end. This is one of those areas where civilian morals simply do not fit. It is a different set of moral guidelines in the military.

Now, as for the rest of the "he's done more for the US then you have" crap, sounds like he's just a fucking dick. Now, I'll heard people say that anyone who joins the military is murdering scum and comments like that, and I'll gladly tell everyone of them to go suck a dick and burn in hell, but on the flip side, anyone who tried to act like they are better then others just because they joined can also suck a dick an burn in hell.

Everyone has their own reasons for joining, and having worked in crypto, I've met some of the smartest people I've ever known while I was in the navy. I've also met some of the dumbest people I've ever know. The military is like a concentrated version of the US, but really, no dumber or smarter the the civilian world.

Vabeachdude · 01-18-2010, 08:26 AM

[QUOTE=Slims;2747152]Deference...None

As far as your buddies outlook is concerned:

1. You do seem to be a pussy.

That was my first reaction as well... overall, the opinions your friends military friend made about the Hadjis seemed inmature. I like to treat everyone with a certain amount of respect and try and give a bit of deference to most new people I meet.. especially when I don't know what I'm talking about.. and depending on the situation of course. Sounds like alot of painting with a broad brush on both sides of the conversation which resulted in your broken friendship.

As a retired Navy Vet, I believe the military is just a swatch of the population as a whole. Your going to have great people and your going to have assholes... but your stereotypes of the military as a whole being uneducated, unmotivated.. etc.. etc are not factual and it's been so eloquently disputed by other former military members that I don't really need to go into that much further. It appears your attitudes towards the military need a second thought and could be being influenced by your community or your feelings towards war and politics.

Cernunnos · 01-23-2010, 10:18 PM

I don't grant any additional respect to military personnel over civilians. Possessing a certain job title has no innate bearing on the level of respect a person deserves. What matters to me are their reasons for signing up and what knowledge they had prior to entering military service. From my perspective, taking an individual's life on the basis of his or her country is unethical, regardless of whether or not a uniform is worn when the bullet pierces that individual's chest. Agreeing to perform such murders (and actually following through) earns nothing but disdain from me.

Patriotism is a term commonly tossed around by those who justify violence as a means of resolving conflicts.

Seer666 · 01-23-2010, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

Patriotism is a term commonly tossed around by those who justify violence as a means of resolving conflicts.

Violence has been very effective through the years in resovling conflicts. Like it or not, it works.

Cernunnos · 01-23-2010, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer666

Violence has been very effective through the years in resovling conflicts. Like it or not, it works.

Effectiveness of a method has no bearing on its ethical repercussions, unless you subscribe to a teleological viewpoint, which I perceive as unacceptably flawed.

Seer666 · 01-25-2010, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cernunnos

Effectiveness of a method has no bearing on its ethical repercussions, unless you subscribe to a teleological viewpoint, which I perceive as unacceptably flawed.

Violence is a tool like any other, it's all in how it's applied. To say that it is inherently wrong or unethical is, in my view, ignorant. Sometimes, violence is the only proper course of action.

Plan9 · 01-25-2010, 09:46 AM

I like where this thread is going.

Cernunnos · 01-25-2010, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seer666

Violence is a tool like any other, it's all in how it's applied. To say that it is inherently wrong or unethical is, in my view, ignorant. Sometimes, violence is the only proper course of action.

Violence is most certainly not a tool like any other. A pencil doesn't end a life. I shouldn't need to elaborate on that point.

Characterizing violence as a tool in any sense is also a mistake, in my opinion. It is an action. The tool is the fist or rifle used for the purpose of violence. Both may have instrumental value, but that is the extent of their similarity.

I am in favor of violence when it is in direct defense against harm, and no peaceful alternatives exist that would prevent the aforementioned harm from occuring.

As I understand the typical military organization, its primary purpose is to protect national interests, not lives. I oppose any sort of entity that places greater value on a nation or its citizens than that of a foreign group of humans. If the military were primarily interested in defending lives, hundreds of thousands of Iraqis wouldn't be decomposing in mass graves.

I am interested in understanding your ethical justification for placing greater value on one nation's citizens over another's, assuming you do.

KirStang · 01-25-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan9

I like where this thread is going.

Reminds me of a certain topic I read not too long ago...

. Meh.

01-18-2010, 08:26 AM	#44 (permalink)
Vabeachdude Upright	[QUOTE=Slims;2747152]Deference...None As far as your buddies outlook is concerned: 1. You do seem to be a pussy. That was my first reaction as well... overall, the opinions your friends military friend made about the Hadjis seemed inmature. I like to treat everyone with a certain amount of respect and try and give a bit of deference to most new people I meet.. especially when I don't know what I'm talking about.. and depending on the situation of course. Sounds like alot of painting with a broad brush on both sides of the conversation which resulted in your broken friendship. As a retired Navy Vet, I believe the military is just a swatch of the population as a whole. Your going to have great people and your going to have assholes... but your stereotypes of the military as a whole being uneducated, unmotivated.. etc.. etc are not factual and it's been so eloquently disputed by other former military members that I don't really need to go into that much further. It appears your attitudes towards the military need a second thought and could be being influenced by your community or your feelings towards war and politics. Last edited by Vabeachdude; 01-18-2010 at 08:50 AM..

01-23-2010, 10:18 PM	#45 (permalink)
Cernunnos Insane Location: Orlando, Florida	I don't grant any additional respect to military personnel over civilians. Possessing a certain job title has no innate bearing on the level of respect a person deserves. What matters to me are their reasons for signing up and what knowledge they had prior to entering military service. From my perspective, taking an individual's life on the basis of his or her country is unethical, regardless of whether or not a uniform is worn when the bullet pierces that individual's chest. Agreeing to perform such murders (and actually following through) earns nothing but disdain from me. Patriotism is a term commonly tossed around by those who justify violence as a means of resolving conflicts.

01-25-2010, 09:46 AM	#49 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	I like where this thread is going.