Mantus

Creationism to me is a social issue.

I got myself into this mess when I decided to resume my casual studies on evolution and natural selection. I was shocked to see that this field of science is under direct attack by complete morons. The more I read the more outraged I became at the ignorance manifesting itself around this subject. It scares me see the Creationism movement permeating our political and social landscape.

"You know it's still called the theory of evolution. But they teach evolution in the Ontario curriculum, but they also could teach the fact to the children that there are other theories that people have out there that are part of some Christian beliefs." - John Tory, leader of the Ontario Conservative party.

Every time I hear stuff like this my jaw drops and steam comes out of my ears. I want to tell myself that this is just a phase and all will pass but really feel like this is symptom of a much greater issue: ignorance is running rampant in our society.

I'm at a loss of what to do about it.

The questions I'm pursuing concerning the Creationism movement are:
Is the pursuit of science obstructed?
Is this a case of blind leading the blind or a form social and political manipulation?
Will we see the rise of creationist astronomy, geology, physics?

Baraka_Guru

I think the whole "Theory of Evolution vs. Creationism" is a non-starter. It's comparing the sciences to philosophy or religion.

It would be like starting up a discourse/debate on "Cell Theory vs. Preformationism" and using it as a way to decide how we move forward in human medicine.

Um, no. I refuse to believe that we all, at one point, floated around--intact but miniature--in either Adam's testicles or Eve's ovaries. I'd expect any doctor or surgeon working with me to refuse to believe that as well.

Let's leave philosophic exploration where it belongs: outside the sciences. The exception, of course, is when you can use actual evidence and eventually bring it into the fold of worthwhile scientific inquiry.

That said, staunch and influential Creationists are harmful in that they create ignorance around something important: the continued understanding of human (and other) biology.

When Creationism enters politics, it can have direct and noticeable effects on government funding and school curriculum, so, yeah, I think this is a very real problem.

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FuglyStick

Yeah, you're making too much of it.

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Willravel

I wish it were that simple. Creationism is social, it's religious, it's philosophical, and it's political. It's "don't you dare let your reality touch my precious fantasy" across the entire spectrum of human interaction.
Do something about it. If something as stupid as creationism comes out of the mouth of someone around you, go ahead and try to fix the person's incredible intellectual dishonesty and ignorance by refuting the simplistic fallacies and misrepresentations.
The conservative leader's name is John Tory? That's interesting. Is the liberal leader's name Matthew Progressive?
Seriously, if people are going to try and force ignorance on you, you're entitled to force truth on them. Don't be quiet if someone starts in on creationism. Speak up. If you can't answer a question, come back here and post it. I give you my personal guarantee that anything and everything a creationist says can be refuted with real, verifiable science. Some people do it for a living:

The questions I'm pursuing concerning the Creationism movement are:
Yes. The more time biologists, geologists, physicists, and other scientists have to defend very basic science to morons, the less time they get to spend on the good stuff, like curing diseases or creating a grand unified theory.
The creationist leadership is probably well aware that what they're selling isn't science. Yes, it's manipulation of the stupid by the corrupt.
It's already those things and more. How do you think astronomers respond to the idea that the entire universe is 6,014 years old? How do you think geologists respond when some moron suggests one 40-day flood carved the grand canyon? How do you think a physicist would respond to the idea that the universe blinked into existence because a mythological god wished it?

Creationism is an affront to all science (except maybe aceology and numismatics).

levite

I would say that Creationism is not necessarily a social phenomenon. Creationism is an issue, ultimately, of fundamentalist religious thought.

What is a related social phenomenon is the adoption of fundamentalist modalities of thought-- as well as fundamentalist exegetical tropes-- into social philosophy and politics. That, I think, is really what's at issue here. If someone wishes to espouse Creationism as a religious precept, I may call that poor exegesis and simplistic religious philosophy, but I will also certainly call it their right to believe whatever they choose.

What presents such a monumental problem is the exportation of this idea into the public domain, in such a way that we are now forced to debate not merely whether our schools should teach religion alongside science, but whether that religious stance then ought to be only one specific religious idea out of many (as the literalist interpretation of Genesis generally cited by these Creationists is not the sole Christian reading, let alone the sole Jewish reading, let alone the sole Muslim reading).

Once again, I can't help noting that it is precisely because of problems with religious doctrines putting themselves forward as "objective," when they can't even claim to be universal amongst their own religion, let alone the other religions that share the same sacred texts, that Jefferson was so firm on needing a wall of separation between Church and State.

There is, IMO, nothing wrong with religion...provided that it occupies the space of religion. Religion is a tool for people to attempt to connect to God, to share in a community of spirituality and ethics, to advance their own spiritual awareness. If one is treating Scripture like a lesson in cosmological science, geology, physics, biology, etc., then one is simply abusing it: that is not what it was created to be, and it is deeply irrelevant to the enterprise of religion.

Science, on the other hand, was created precisely to attempt to create a paradigm to explain the physical universe in systematic ways, to explain the nature of physical phenomena via a common, mathematically-based language of direct observations and reproducible experimental results. It is uninterested in ethics, creating community, God, and people's spiritual awareness, and in fact lacks any capacity for working with any of those things.

I really cannot understand why individuals who espouse fundamentalist beliefs cannot simply explain to their children that their religion teaches something different, and while their kids might need to learn science to progress in coursework, they need not believe that any of it is true. And, frankly, nobody is forcing all kids to attend public school: if fundamentalist parents don't like public school, they can always send their kids to private religious school, or home-school them.

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Plan9

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Daniel_

I was once told "If you don't like God's creation, don't live in it". I explained that their own Bible made killing myself against the rules, and they didn't know how to answer.

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cdwonderful

Hey, I thought the term "creationism" had been replaced by "Intelligent Design".....

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Plan9

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Willravel

I'd never dream of going into a church and attempting to disprove or contradict everything they teach. It's not my place.

cdwonderful

I have been to the one in santee
Creation and Earth History Museum, Santee, California

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ratbastid

What I say to these sorts of arguments, though, is that if your religion depends on a factual basis, then you must not have much faith.

(It's a losing argument to point out that their religion, if it's based on facts, is based on false facts. They've got a self-confirming little universe built, and anything outside it is automatically invalid. They "know" their Book is "true", and so the only facts that can also be "true" are those that confirm what the Book says.)

Willravel

The counter to that, RB, is the fideism argument. Most church bodies have officially rejected fideism, even though nearly all the followers believe in it by default. I've had all the debates a thousands times and I'll have them a thousand more times.

BogeyDope

To my knowledge:

Creationism=A super power [God] designed the entire World, etc, etc.

It's the answer to how everything happened.

Intelligent Design=A super power has time and time again led the process of evolution, etc, etc.

It's the answer to why everything happened.

Intelligent Design+Evolution=Perfectly compatible and viable.

Creationism+Evolution=I DIDNT COME FROM NO MONKIES

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Plan9

That does make us wonder what you do for a living.

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SecretMethod70

Intelligent Design is just Creationism in disguise: Intelligent design - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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roachboy

i suppose it's a matter of what context you're in exactly. if you're in a place where the folk who believe that stuff are a significant political power, then it's a socio-political matter. if you're not, it can be kinda quaint that people think that way i suppose. so i dont see this as a question that's interesting enough to warrant much debate at the conceptual level---but in particular situations, things can get quite complicated sometimes quite fast around creationism or id or whatever it will be repackaged as in the future. the problem is that it's hard to imagine winning arguments with these people because their entire position comes from an assertion of control over premises/axioms---so just as it's unlikely that you are going to argue a pentacostalist out of thinking that there is a holy spirit and that speaking in tongues is normal and that we are all hurtling toward armageddeon, so it's unlikely that you're going to be able to argue a creationist-type out of thinking as they do because for each of these folk the question is how did god create the world and how many days did it take and not how do the various notions of evolution square with physical evidence. you aren't in the same conversation with these folk. they're talking about something else, a different language game.

that's what makes them a problem when they get political power.
seems to me the conflict then really is not so much about creationism/id/whatever, but in keeping these folk away from political power.

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Willravel

Debating creationists is more of a hobby. Only a few of us can make the big bucks doing it and I don't have the patience to write a book.

RB, mythology is a context and religion is a context and science is a context. Creationism/Intelligent Design is an intellectual abomination with no legitimate context. It's entirely outside of context. It's wrong, incorrect, and ultimately damaging to both of the contexts it tries to skirt.

Halx

One thing to be aware of here is that if we don't treat this issue with a little urgency, it'll spread. You can dismiss it as a _______ issue, but the problem is that fundies are trying to make it everyone's problem. They are all complete morons, but reason doesn't always trump populism. This ideology needs to be struck down. They may have the right to believe whatever they want, but it has no place in schools or government. If children need to be taught creationism, they can learn it at home or at church.

Intelligen Design is just Creationism in sheep's clothing. Get that shit out of here, too.

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Baraka_Guru

How is something like this (and the points he brings up) not a problem?




(The Big Valley Creation Science Museum is in Alberta, Canada.)

Here we have him using math to discuss the Intelligent Designer's use of math and the impossibility of evolution:


There's more, but I'll spare you.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Halx

The points he brings up are logical fallacies. God of the gaps. We don't have the knowledge, so we're going to assume GOD. This is the worst.

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Baraka_Guru

He addresses that too.




"You evolutionists are calling upon the god of the gaps!"

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Come to Jesus.

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Halx

The cognitive dissonance is strong in this one. I like how he blatantly says "we use god to explain..."

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Baraka_Guru

He's so cocky about it because he's so sure he's right. I mean, duh, right?

And this guy is just one example.

It's like back in the day when astronomers necessarily distanced themselves from astrologers. It might seem obvious when it comes to the scientific view of Creationism, but the issue is with how we educate children on the topic of the natural sciences (earth science, biology, physics, chemistry, etc.) and top politicians making funding and policy decisions based on whether they believe the earth is 10,000 years old, give or take a few years.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Halx

Yeah, we need the same decisive action today. We need a clear separation from creationism because otherwise, they will latch on and we'll never shake them loose.

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Manic_Skafe

LEAVE JESUS ALONE!!!

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Vigilante

Way too late. This has been going on since the 80's at least. I was being taught creationism in the 80's and early 90's. Naturally I fought evolution as a teenager even though I studied it as a child. By the time I was...9? I had already decided on evolution as a viable way to explain the patterns we see in biology, then my grandfather picked up on that and decided to have me read creationism books. Being a child, I absorbed it like everything else.

Once I graduated high school I had done a 180 back to evolution. It's irrefutable.

The trouble (for me) was a belief in God coupled with spiritual experiences that no one in my family seemed to understand, and the imagined concept of science vs God. At this point in my life however, I see no more conflict between those topics. That's just me though.

I'll have no part of religious wars other than to tell someone to get out of my face with that shit. I'm pretty much the same with atheist views as well. Society will do as it will. I'm just along for the ride.

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MSD

I discussed it with a creationist friend once. He simply stated, "I don't believe in evolution, it doesn't make sense" as we finished lunch. I calmly and politely asked if it had ever been explained to him by a scientist and he said that he hadn't. I said, "would you like me to explain it to you to the best of my ability and see what you think?" and he said yes as another friend (who probably would have been condescending about it) tried to jump in and another told him to wait and see how I did.

I had this walk back to give my best effort, and we had all had a few beers.
from: Main St to: Broad St - Google Maps

In this short trip, I explained how random mutation leads to favorable and unfavorable genetic traits, and that those traits that increase an individual's chance of procreating offspring who survive to sexual maturity are considered to be selected for, and those who hinder it are said to be selected against. Over a grand time scale, these little changes add up, and a basic intro of how speciation occurs when previously compatible groups develop in different enough environments that their set of genes is incompatible with the other group(s.) Through billions of years of changes, a little bit at a time, we went from self-replicating molecules in the primordial sand to celled organisms, to multi-cell organisms. We're separated from apes by tends of millions of years, you can't expect a monkey to have given birth to a human or vice versa because it can't work that way. I pandered to his religion a bit since debating that is none of my business, and said something like "Isn't it a more beautiful testament to the awesome power of God and his infinite wisdom to say that he set the universe in motion, planets and stars came together, and eventually his "forming us out of clay" was the spark that started life in the primordial ooze that started life as we know it," than if he just pointed his finger and wea appeared?

He looked at me with a bit of bewildered, and said "wow, nobody ever explained it to me like that. I think you're right."

A few weeks later he was discussing philosophy and theology with someone and I overheard him say "Yeah, I think God created us, and he used evolution to start life and get it to where it is today." I had a shit eating grin on my face like a parent whose kid just won the spelling bee.

Willravel

I'm surprised you pandered like that. Looking back do you think it was necessary or enabling?

cdwonderful

point is .....it was effective

cant argue with results (although somehow, I think someone will...)

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SecretMethod70

Debating the existence of god, which cannot be proved or disproved, isn't worth distracting from explaining the merits of evolution, which can be (for the most part) proved, over creationism, which is total bullshit.

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Baraka_Guru

MSD, nice.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

cdwonderful

yea, and because you don't know how a CPU works, you shouldn't use a computer?
If Plato is too much for you, a comic book cant teach you to read?
If you are afraid of the freeway, a footpath wont get you there?
If not for the "distraction" his friend could very well have had his thoughts clamped into the " I didn't come from no monkey " mindset.
I say bravo, in the end you broadened his horizons, no matter the technique used.

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Mantus

This thread has been more than illuminating. Thank you all for responding!

We live at a strange time where the abundance of information available is resulting in junk food for people's minds. Why bother understanding a scientific concept when people's opinions of it are readily available? Opinions are so much more interesting absorb and only take a few moments. It's come to a point where people's opinions of scientific ideas outweigh science.

Just look at the top two Scientific blogs of 2008 (http://2008.weblogawards.org/polls/best-science-blog/): one trashes religion that other denies global warming. These are opinion oriented blogs that bastardize science.

What's truly shocking to me is the amount of effort some people put into supporting their opinions - the anti-vaccination campaigns are a great example of this - where they could have been educating themselves on the issue and truly obtaining knowledge.

SecretMethod70

Pharyngula is opinion-oriented, yes, but it does not bastardize science at all. One need not appease religion to be a good scientist. In fact, I'd argue that appeasing religion is why we're where we are right now in regards to creationism and evolution. Some religion deserves bashing, and creationism - which, btw, is what Pharyngula targets most - is definitely one of those aspects.

Honestly, if you want to know what kind of crazy stuff is out there regarding the spread of creationism, Pharyngula is a great blog to read. Case in point: Ten Questions to Ask Your Biology Teacher About Intelligent Design

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Mantus

I've come to the conclusion that people peddle pseudoscience for attention. The power of authority is earned through clever word use rather than hard work. These people have no interest at all in pursuing scientific inquiry and debate only gives them ammunition. The only way to deal with such individual is to take away their audience; attacking their arguments directly is often ineffective.

So I'm thinking that the best strategy is character assassination or appealing to the audience. With character assassination undermining their authority will cause followers to jump ship. The only issue here is that followers will simply seek another source of misinformation unless we catch them before they get there. When appealing to the audience we are using our debate with the pseudoscientist for access to his audience thus giving us an opportunity to educate them.

Plan9

Yeah, Mantus... sadly... some people want to be believe in some ancient magical zombie superheroes because that's all they've got left in their minds. Creationism allows them to have this magic in their everyday lives... because it Big G created everything in their world. Interactive fantasy?

Something I've been thinking about lately is how little purpose life has to a lot of people. They want the hour-a-week drama associated with a religion because their lives are essentially no different than the battery-people in The Matrix movie. When you're stuck in the daily grind of the Average Joe, life really has no purpose other than to make money-money to feed your debt and spin in place. I think people wanna feel like there is some kinda action in their future... whether in this life or the next. Instead of getting lost in video games or gambling away their house or callus-inducing masturbation or alcoholism... they choose Jesus, perhaps the most dangerous drug of all. Life is all about finding your own purpose and some people suck at that.

Religion is dangerous because for all the good it teaches, it may have the user relinquish an unhealthy portion of their ownership of their life.

Granted, I'm not a genius and I do know that religion really does work for some people. A portion of The Faithful, though, have these issues.

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Baraka_Guru

The thing to remember is that the powers that be within Christianity have a long and very successful track record of appropriation. However, coupled with that, they have a recent history of having their belief system appropriated by the forces of liberalism, commerce, and science.

So what you have is a history of being able to take things and make them your own: think of the appropriation of pagan observances and making them into convenient Christian observances. (What, you thought the Christmas tree was Christian?) Then you have the 20th-century practice of essentially secularizing these same observances: they become about family, materialism, and pleasure more so than atonement or other such goal.

So what you get is a very frustrated set of Christians who feel they are being squeezed out. Well, perhaps they are. But this makes them feel as though they are being persecuted for their beliefs, and I'm sure many of them think the recent trends are transgressions, and so they react in their own Christian ways.

So you get Creationist fundies who attack the ideas of evolutionary theory because they don't mesh with the Bible. But I doubt this is their only plight. They are also concerned with putting the "Christ" back into "Christmas" and reminding children that Easter isn't to celebrate the Easter Bunny and his chocolate bounty.

For centuries, Christians held a cultural hegemony over many parts of the world. And over the course of just one century, much of that was undone by pragmatism, commercialism/capitalism, and the scientific method.

Unfortunately, this desperation leads them to mix physics with metaphysics, which only muddies the waters of truth.

Creationism has an impact on wider society. It will be interesting to see what happens down the road. Maybe the LHC will be a turning point.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Plan9

Is it wrong that I got all excited when you said chocolate bounty?

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