Leto

Well, I just thought that since it is nearing the end of the first week of September, I would relay my experiences around my son going to university.

He started his first year of a 4 yr programme this week and I found out that his course selection happens to be the 2nd most expensive undergrad available. This I found out because my wife & I promised to cover his tuition for him so that he could focus on his other expenses. Our stance is that if our children have the marks, the desire & drive to attend university, then money should not be a reason not to go. I do expect them to contribute, and if they leave home to be in res, or student housing, then they need to make up the difference.

We do have RESP's (registered education savings plans where the gov't ponies up 20% of the initial savings contribution) saved for them, but why use that up if we have savings?

So son #1 approaches us last night and says that the balance of tuition is due on Friday. We already put down a $1000 deposit in July. So I ask if we pay by term, Fall then Winter?

No, it is all at once, or interest charges kick in. So how much more do we owe? I ask him.

$6,000. he says.

Fuck. I was expecting any normal university undergrad programme cost of mid 5K or something, but like I said before he chose Biomedical Engineering. The only more expensive undergrad at Ryerson U is Civil Engineering ( I think they have to buy some T-squares for that one!) by $20.

Can you guys relate to a $7,000 tuition fee? For engineering? It's not like the courses are anything exotic: Calculus, Algebra, Physics, Chemistry, Geography and intro to Engineering. If he took Biology (Arts & Science) his tuition would only be $5200. So what gives? The course load is almost the same.

Oh yes, and the books. $184 for a Calculus text. $195 for Chemistry. The rest have not yet been purchased.



Do I perceive a cash grab from the school? what are your TFP thoughts on this?

1) the course load for engineering is virtually identical as for biology, yet costs $1700 more.
2) text books for courses that rarely change (what is different in Calculus or Algebra or chemistry or Physics now, versus 20 years ago, not to mention 5 years ago) are re published in new versions forcing the student to pay out for them.
- When will text books be converted to HTML, and be available online?? for free?? I mean, isn't that what we pay tuition for?
3) extra student fees. I never did understand why they are over and above tuition. At least he can opt out of the $780 medical / dental coverage because I have it through work.



All I can say is that thankfully my work place provides a $2100 grant/yr and a summer student work programme ($21/hr) so that he can earn his keep for next year.

snowy

If that's for two semesters of school, that's not much more than what my SO ends up paying for engineering here (over 3 quarters versus semesters). While your son isn't taking many engineering classes yet, he will be eventually, and they have to spread out the costs of the lab/shop equipment and whatnot over all of the students. Here, being an engineering student comes with "free" perks--you get to print all you want at the computer labs, the engineers have their own computer labs, etc--of course they pay through all of these things via a fee only assessed to ENGR students. The College of Engineering here assesses a fee, which increases upon admission to pro school, then each school assesses another fee. Additionally, some classes assess a fee to cover the cost of labs.

And yeah, the textbook thing pisses me off too. The cost of attendance estimate for textbooks for a first-year engineering student at my university is $776/term. Pretty crazy. That's a cash grab by book publishers, not universities, though. Plenty of the profs I know are getting frustrated about it too.

And student fees go to pay for all of the things associated with the university experience--all of the student resource centers on campus (cultural, study skills, etc), the rec center, the library, computer labs, athletics, etc., all get a piece of the fee pie.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

telekinetic

I went to school several inflation cycles ago, and that seems about in line with normal in-state university tuition. *shrug*

I spent more than $700 on books several semesters.

I just checked, current instate tuition at ASU is $2800 per semester, so $5600 a year, plus fees. Non-resident is $8000 a semester. My sister in law and brother in law went to Standford at $12,000 a semester. Same brother in law is now going to UCLA for a graduate degree at $45,000 per year.

College: Not Inexpensive

vanblah

The tuition at the liberal arts college I work at is considerably higher than $7000/year (about 6 times that).

They want you to pay up front so they don't have to deal with any billing/accounting issues down the road. You pay interest for the convenience of smaller incremental payments. Same thing with credit cards; you're asking the school to take a chance on you. I'm sure you're already aware of these things.

ratbastid

I don't understand that logic in the slightest.

But I'm a registered Democrat...

jorgelito

Get loans. It's the best bargain out there. Your school sounds very cheap actually. You're lucky.

There are many ways top pay for college, it's simple.

1. Go to community college for 2 years. It's very cheap. Get your AA too
2. Transfer to a 4-year instituion
a. State school - cheaper tuition for residents
b. Private school - more expensive BUT much more student aid
3. Live at home - save tons of money by staying at home
4. Books
a. Go to the school library or the local public library. Most profs have their books
available at the library.
b. Sometimes you can ask the professor directly as they keep extra copies. Many of
my professors gave me the book for class.
c. Buy used - much cheaper alternative and you get the same price when you sell
back as you would a new one.

For tuition assistance, apply for a school loan. Work-study is also a great option.

Good luck.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

snowy

Leto is in Canada, so I would wager that the student assistance system up there is entirely different.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Charlatan

Compared to schools in the US, Canadian schools *are* very cheap. I am dreading the day that I have to start paying tuition for my kids. We had an RESP but cannot pay into it now that we live abroad.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

jorgelito

Ah well I didn't know that. Don't they have free education up there in the socialist paradise? Anyways, the rest of my advice should still be applicable. Don't they have banks in Canada?

If he's quoting in Canadian dollars his education is still quite cheap. Plus he's going for a useful science degree so it's definitely worth it. Even if it was for a useless liberal arts degree education is still a worthy investment. The price of ignorance is far higher.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Charlatan

Jorge... if he's quoting in Canadian dollars, it's just about on par with the US dollar.

And yes, we do pay for our Higher Education in Canada. It's just much more affordable (though less so these days than when I was in University). If that's socialism, sign me up (oh wait... I'm already a member). :P

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

jorgelito

Touche, USD is the new Pesos!

Yeah, I thought that Canada had free health care and education from all the debates we've had around here in the past. I guess they are more like us then.

I agree, the education at the price he quoted is very affordable (same price I paid) which is why I don't get the complaint. It's also very cheap in the US. I don't know what university he's going to but it can't be as bad the shitty state school I went to (UCLA), but hey, it was cheap. I couldn't afford a private school so I chose to go to a state school instead. That's what us poor folk do when we pick ourselves up by the bootstraps. We take what we can afford and do the best we can with it.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Charlatan

With a quick Google, I came up with an article on the cost of Univeristy in Eastern Canada:

If $5,733 is the second highest in the nation, then that would explain his sticker shock.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Leto

hey, great input guys.. Actually, I would like to reset the tone of my OP, I'm not complaining about the tuition so much, as the text books. But still, 7 grand??? All points raised are valid. Yes, we do have a student assistance programme, which provides loans for low income kids.


I've been grappling with the differences brought on by my tuition ($770 for first year) and his at almost 10x that.

University education is not free up here, and I don't get the socialist reference. We've never had the NDP in power, and the Conservatives are somewhat to the right of Bush. We just all chip in and pay for medicare.

I've just noticed that the cost of tuition seems to be the highest where we are living (Toronto), and particularly for Ryerson & UofT - as Charlatan pointed out. Wasn't expecting that.

jorgelito

No it's my mistake. I misunderstood and misinterpreted info from previous discussions. I have heard people refer to Canada's "socialist system" and extol the virtues of free Canadian health care and education. I guess there is some bad info floating around (maybe it was a Michale Moore movie). We're more alike than previously thought.

Anyways, think about taking out an education loan. It should have competitive rates and in my opinion, education is a worthy investment. Look into scholarships too if you can. See if your son can get a part time job and learn to budget. Books can be bought second hand (often at half price). Amazon, half.com are good sources. Also, talk to the professor. Oftentimes they have extra copies for students who ask and try the libraries too.

Good luck!

Add: I think Baraka_Guru works or lives near University of Toronto. He may have some good tips. Give him a PM.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Poppinjay

Tuition at my school was more than that, way back when I went in the jurassic period. I rode a camarasaurus to school. Now, it's at about $14k.

And that was for a "useless" liberal arts degree. I figured all that science junk was so easy to pick up, I'd just read a few books about it.

I did, and I have a good job. That plus the ability to think makes life enjoyable.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Sticky

Tuition is not free up here but a portion of the costs of running these universities is subsidised by the goverment. The complaint here in Quebec is that not enough is funded by the goverment and with tuition at the levels that Charlatan quoted above you can see why Quebec universities want to raise tuition. This, of course is very strongly opposed by the students.

McGill (and possibly Concordia) are probably the best bank for your buck (tuition:Education). When I graduated about 11 years ago tuition was at $1600 a semester and I don't think it has increased that much since then (Charlatan quotes $2,025 below). And McGill is a pretty good university.

Leto, why are you surprised that Tuition is highest in Toronto. Everything is higher priced in Toronto.

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Sticky The Stickman

snowy

Jorgelito has some good advice--don't rely on the bookstore for textbooks. I used to order all of mine off of Amazon.com. I could order used texts from a number of different sellers at once, and got a number of really good deals. But there are some instances where new books have to be bought, because it's a brand-new edition or whatever. In that case, compare the price from the bookstore with that at Amazon--sometimes one is cheaper over the other. Just tell your son to make sure he has all the information he needs to track them down, specifically the edition needed and the ISBN if possible.

And as Jorgelito suggested, many profs put the textbook on reserve at the library, or else it's part of the regular collection. It's worth figuring that out prior to term, as once term starts loads of other people are going to have the same genius idea, and if it's part of the regular collection, it will get checked out fast. Also, if it's on reserve, and your son plans on just using the reserved book, he should aim to get his work done for that class a day ahead of time instead of waiting till the last minute like everyone else will, otherwise the book will be checked out. If he plans on using a reserve text at any time, he should also figure out how to access the online card catalog from home: Ryerson Library Catalogue because it's totally disappointing to show up at the library planning to use a text on reserve only to find out some jackass checked it out. And photocopies are good! I don't know about copyright law in Canada, but here in the United States photocopying texts for educational purposes is fair use. For many of my classes, I found photocopies easier to use than the full textbook.

Oh! And don't buy textbooks until after the start of term!!! Especially in classes where there are multiple sections with different instructors, your son may end up not even needing one of the books listed. He should have all his syllabi in hand prior to purchasing books to see what he really needs to buy. It may be that he only needs to read 10 pages out of book B for class C, and he can borrow a classmate's copy to photocopy, or it's on reserve.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

Poppinjay

You kids with your amazon.com.

Another shortcut to spending big bucks for those books; check them out of the library and renew renew renew.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Jinn

My engineering undergrad was $47,000 tuition in 4 years, or roughly 10k a year, 5k a semester. Sounds a bit high, but otherwise quite standard.

I probably had another $5k in books and miscellany in there too.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Bear Cub

$26k a year tuition at the school I graduated from, $36k a year tuition from the school I started at. You guys are getting off cheap.

__________________
Living in the United Socialist States of America.

jorgelito

Yes, we have already mentioned the libraries

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

Leto

I do see that we are getting of cheap. Although, in context with local schools, the rates are high. I do havd to keep in mind that an engineering degree from a Canadian university does have some currency in the global market. So I see it as a good investment. The same degree down the road at UofT is $1500 more expensive.

As for the library approach, I did investigate, after Snowy sent that wonderful link (thanks!!!) and discovered that there are current texts there, but only one copy of each, all with holds against them. Those profs are cunning!

Poppinjay

I'm slow in my old age. Who took my teeth?

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

jorgelito

Don't worry, you can buy a replacement set on Amazon.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter