thespian86

Shut up pretty boy.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

surferlove007

Finally get to respond...

@Punk
I agree that there is a fine line between confidence and indifference. If the child was confident with herself then my thoughts on the subject would be very different opposed to if she was indifferent.

@Girl
I don't recall anyone writing that you should not be allowed to enjoy your life simply because you are an overweight person. I do understand that some people are predisposed to being obese due to genetics...however I do not tolerate it when they use that as an excuse for not making changes to their lifestyle. My reason?
I come from a family that is predisposed to being overweight, my mother has struggled with it since she was a child. She works out and although she's not a size 5 shes healthy and is constantly working to improve herself. She works, she has a lot of her shoulders and she finds the time. Her entire side of the family has struggled with it. I suppose I don't accept that crutch because if one knows their family has a history of it, they should work even harder to instill a healthier lifestyle in themselves and their children. I have been active since I could remember and because of that I am active in maintaining a healthy lifestyle despite being busy working and finishing my degree. I can't change whats in my genes however I can do all I can to prevent becoming overweight. We're all busy, yet people still find the time if they care enough to. Exercising helps to boost ones energy and is an overall great stress reliever. Coming from a lower income family can be hard I'm sure, however its only what you make of it.

Also, when I mentioned I don't care for seeing overweight people in smaller bathings that was an opinion. It is not my fault that my judgment is a perception of society and their intolerance toward an unhealthy lifestyle displayed in front of them. Personally I prefer to look at people who are in shape and take care of themselves. Again, just a preference and opinion. I do hope you and your husband don't feel embarrassed about being in public in your swim suits, if you're happy with how you then that is what matters.

Another thing...I don't believe my attitude is ignorant compared to yours. I'm not the one getting upset about the topic...I'm again just stating an opinion on the scenario and shedding light on some experiences.I've taken enough personal fitness and wellness classes which have taught me the health risks associated with being overweight. Those are risks I don't care to take. I stand by my decision, if she was overweight she would get a one piece and a change in lifestyle. I would work with her to get her down to a healthy weight and reward her with a newer suit of her choice within reason and modesty.

@ Manic
What do I suggest they do?
I suggest they realize that society has an intolerance toward obesity because it is self destructive and unhealthy. People concern over the obesity rates going up because it is one of the most preventable causes of death in the nation, like smoking. Again its up to the lifestyle choices.

thespian86

You can shut up too pretty chick.

Seriously though, at the risk of sounding condescending, I think the idea of it being completely health related is very naive. It wouldn't be such a stigma socially if it was a health issue. The problem is purely cosmetic. Perhaps you and a handful of people are saying "That is disgusting because they are unhealthy" but 99% of the people in the world are thinking "That's disgusting; look at those fat slobs, why don't they just stop eating and exercise. God, buy some clothes that fit you, and stop eating shit all the time".

I never had anyone say to me growing up "Hey man, that's so unhealthy" but I heard a lot of "Hey Fatty". People don't say that when they are post-junior high but, hell GG, they think it. That's why I'm talking about tolerance. It isn't about ignoring the obesity; it's about ignoring the social ignorance.

It's not that black and white and the fact that you used a "I was sad because a parent said they buy late night fast food for their kid" as an example furthers it; even though you don't mean to.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

surferlove007

I touched base on both the unhealthy lifestyle and the social aspect of it. I've never denied that I don't care for the appearance, I simply explained why the appearance is intolerable from my POV. One can't be understood without the other...

kutulu

Lots of things here.

First of all, overweight is a broad term. Are you talking about a couple of extra pounds or a hundred extra pounds? The "heath risks" are vague and largely dependent on the magnitude of being overweight. Is someone really at risk if they are 20 pounds overweight?

Second of all, do not assume that because someone is overweight that they are lazy and have an unhealthy attitude about life. I work with a guy that is at least 50 pounds overwieght. He's also an avid mountain biker and spends tons of time on his bike. I guarantee you that he's in better cardiovascular shape than most of us here.

People get on high horses because they are thing and think its just so easy. Therefore, fat people are lazy. It's not like that at all.

To the young people here who want to look down on people for being overweight: Just wait. There is a difference between your body at 22 and 32, 42, etc. When I was 22, I ate like a madman and was 20 pounds underweight. Ten years later, I'm pretty mindful of what I eat and I'm about 20 pounds overweight. If anything I consume less calories per day than I used to when I was younger. My activity levels haven't changed much.

Atreides88

I assumed that the OP was referring to the girl in question being out-of-shape and fat, and apathetic about the issue. As a guy who is heavier than the suggested weight for my height, I too take issue with the focus on weight. I'm 5'10" and 220 but I can lift a lot, carry a heavy load, and am in pretty good shape. Those who are 5'10" 250 but sit on their asses and are fat are the ones who I take issue with. There is a difference between being big and in shape and being big and unhealthy.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Poppinjay

So it's not fat people who are the problem. Just people fatter than you.

Gotcha.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Atreides88

You missed the point entirely. It's people who don't take care of themselves, i.e. stuff their gaping maws with junk food and then do nothing but sit on the couch and watch TV. This can also be carried over to the field of hygiene as well. I dislike people who don't take care of themselves, in general.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

thespian86

What really pisses me off about this comment is exactly what I've been talking about all along; what a generalization.

I know people who are skinny who sit around stuffing themselves with crap. Complain about them.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

ratbastid

Naw. They're skinny, so they're good people. He's talking about the bad people: the fat ones.

PonyPotato

Maybe it's just a British thing or a "comfort with bodies" thing, but my parents put me in bikinis before I was even old enough to make demands about what I wanted to wear. They even let me go topless (just bikini bottoms) on the beach because a lot of the time I'd take the top off anyway. There are pictures of me wearing hot pink bikini bottoms on a beach in Florida when I was only about 4 years old. Is that wrong from your point of view?

As for the OP: I would probably go for a compromise, a tankini. That way some embarrassment/teasing may be avoided, yet she retains some freedom of choice and learns the value of compromise. There is almost always an "in-between" when it comes to clothes, and as long as that in-between is reasonable, I'll probably compromise on it with my future child(ren).

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Poppinjay

Every place I've lived, it's pretty standard for young girls to just wear bikini bottoms until 6 or 7. In fact this reminds me of a time I went swimming, and there was a girl there, not much older than a toddler, doing just that. Until some boy laughed at her even though he had bigger breasts. So she rant out of the water and covered herself up.

Normally I wouldn't call a kid an asshole, but that boy has a great future in douchebaggery.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Jinn

It's pretty obvious by the vitriol with which many come down on those who are overweight that it is not entirely a concern for the health of that person. If that were the case, they'd be coming down with the same fervor (and language - "stuffing their maws?") on smokers.

I agree that obesity is a problem and a significant one at that, and I will admit that I find truly obese (and highly overweight) people disgusting to look at, but I'm not so cowardly as to hide it behind a guise of concern for their "health."

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Atreides88

I will, given the proper venue. This thread is specifically discussing fat people, not skinny people who don't take care of themselves. But to be quite honest, I don't know that many people who don't exercise and subsist on a large portion of shitty food. Most people I've known who do that are fat and unhealthy; and believe it or not, I was once in the same boat. Instead of moping and looking for an easy way out or people's acceptance of my unhealthy lifestyle, I joined the football team and actually started trying to eat healthier and got more exercise.

Jinn, I could give a shit about their health; my family and friends being the exceptions. It's their decision to become obese and suffer the health problems associated with it, but that also means that they will get no sympathy from me about being fat and how horrible it is.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

Jinn

And I thank you for your honest. This sort of thing is something I can understand and even agree with. It's the intellectual dishonesty of the people in this thread who claim that they don't like obese people because they're unhealthy. It has nothing to do with the other person's health, but their own personal dislike for the aesthetics of being overweight.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

ratbastid

It's just that, in this thread at least, "no sympathy" looks a whole lot like "full on assault".

thespian86

All I have to say is that I'm starting to receive PM's about your words; people thanking me for what I'm saying. Think about the weight of your words. That's the only weight I'm concerned about right now.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Atreides88

Then I will kindly bow out of the conversation as I don't know of any way to sugarcoat the message I am trying to get across.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

thespian86

I figured this is the response I would get. It's not about what you're saying, it's how your saying it.

Don't stop speaking, but speak diplomatically.

I am abrasive in the opposite sense. I'm trying to find a better way of speaking about this; it's a sensitive subject.

EDIT: I'm, sincerely, out of my league I think. I care about this a lot but in this case there is no right answer so I think I'm out. Not as a "being a dick, sarcastic out" but I don't think I have anything to add. Just so you know.

EDIT PS: I [insert compliment] Mixed Media. I probably say it too much. I'm fine with that.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

mixedmedia

Actually, I think the problem is that some folks are speaking too diplomatically.

It sounds too harsh to say, 'I don't like fat people.' 'I don't like the way fat people look.'

Instead it's couched in all these proclamations about health. That only makes it more offensive, in my opinion.

If you want to hold on to judgments about fat people and the way they live their lives then just own up to it. No one really believes that you're concerned about health.

There have always been people who are fat. There always will be. It will be tough business to convince me that most of the sudden convictions about fat people isn't media driven. Just like with smoking.

Just get over it. There are still plenty of skinny people left to look at. Lots of average size people, too. Get over yourselves. You think fat is the only thing that makes someone an unattractive seat mate on an airplane?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Atreides88

MixedMedia, thank you. With that, I'm out of this thread along with Punkfan. I hope there are no hard feelings.

__________________
"There is no need to suppose that human beings differ very much one from another: but it is true that the ones who come out on top are the ones who have been trained in the hardest school." -- Thucydides

ColonelSpecial

The girl in the OP is 8. No doubt at this age, she has been tease through school. She wants to wear a bikini (which I take to mean just a two piece suit and not anything from the pages of Sports Illustrated Swimsuit issue); let her. Maybe she is on her way to losing weight and becoming smaller. Maybe she ate a sensible breakfast before going to the pool and will make good food choices during the day. She is at the pool and is 8 years old, most likely she will be running/swimming all day which is pure exercise gold. Let her wear something she feels comfortable in so she feels good enough to make the good choices and not the loathe her body because when you have learned to loathe your body, losing weight doesn't make it go away.

__________________
"Mommy, the presidents are squishing me!"

"Using the pull out method of contraceptive is like saying I won't use a seat belt, I'll just jump out of the car before it hits that tree."

Sara

sound chaser

perhaps, but who is to say there is no freedom to be fat?

If being fat is unhealthy and thus bad, then should smoking be banned? Food is necessary for existence while smoking tobacco is not.

I'd think in life, a person should be free to live how he/she wants, is not hurting anybody in the process and is willing to accept the consequences of his/her behavior. Merely being overweight is not prohibited by the Bill of Rights.
-----Added 7/8/2008 at 06 : 06 : 54-----
Queen Latifah is overweight, but plenty of guys dig her. if someone finds overweight women attractive, then how is that different from saying blondes, long haired women or East Asian women are attractive? It's just another personal and subjective taste.

Vinrej

I'll let the kid wear what she wants. Then I'll just tackle the overweight issue later.

Giving her an option of 1 piece and 2 piece suit is okay too. As long as you dont imply that you prefer the 1 piece.

jewels

In response to the OP, in teaching my child I find that words are often meaningless when they're younger, and the media and their peers will offer plenty of criticism when they're older. My role is to support her decisions because I trust her judgement and reasoning.

If she's comfortable wearing it, I'd be proud that she dresses for herself and her own level of comfort. If she's obese, I might encourage her to wear a cover-up on top. If someone doesn't like the way it looks, they can turn away.

Besides, everyone's perceived level of what is fat differs. I see skinny girls with fat hanging over their bikinis/jeans. Who decides which is worse?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Bill O'Rights

Yep.

Same car, turning down a different road.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

StanT

I disagree. Your weight, appearance, and health have no effect on me. I couldn't care less. Second hand smoke does affect me and I do care. The media has nothing to do with either.

mixedmedia

So you don't think that coverage in the media on the effects of smoking and now obesity has anything to do with public awareness of them?

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

LoganSnake

I will never date a smoker because I can't stand the smell of smoke. Just like I don't see myself dating a heavily overweight woman because I don't find that attractive.

Has media had an effect on my opinion on fat? To a degree. Most of it was cultural. Where I'm from, fat people tried to cover it up. It wasn't celebrated as being comfortable in your own skin or what have you. Upon coming to the States, I was exposed to more cellulite than I care to think about and I find that unattractive to say the least.

As for second hand smoking, I don't need the media to tell me how to behave around smokers. The sore throat I get from inhaling second hand smoke and disgusting smell is more than enough reason for me for support the in-door smoking ban.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

StanT

Me personally? I don't watch enough TV for it to have much impact on opinions. I've always hated smoking and have always preferred athletic women, meaning women that can keep up with me on skis or hikes, not size0. In both cases, it's a matter of practicality. I hate tobacco smoke ... period. I don't do boredom well, either, if my wife didn't ski, hike, snowshoe, and ride her own motorcycle, I'd never see her.

I don't think the comparison between smoking and weight is appropriate here.


On topic, I'm 5'11" and 180#. I used to be 285. I had more stamina and strength at 285 and could pass a stress test with flying colors. I probably look better in a swimsuit now, but I felt better then. Cancer is a bitch and I can't go back on half a stomach. Put me in the "my 8yr old is wearing a one piece regardless of her weight", and weight isn't always an indicator of health group.

mixedmedia

I wasn't comparing smoking and obesity.

I was comparing the amount of presence in media coverage on both issues and how they drove/drive popular opinion. And how it validates prejudice based on 'health issues.'

I understand the significance of second-hand smoking. I also understand that the 'health angle' validated people's judgment-dealing of smokers overall, whether they were breathing in their second-hand smoke or not. And some folks got real, real serious about it. Going as far as to purport serious character defects of the people who smoke.

I see the same thing playing out now around the issue of obesity.

That is the comparison.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Ayashe

I had a step-cousin who was always heavy and I was always quite thin. Her step-mom would make remarks all the time about my size quite vocally in front of her. She would also say things like, "Maybe you should try a diet soda instead." I could always sense that it hurt her to hear things like that, she was quite young at the time. I empathized. I would either let her wear what she would like and discover for herself, or find another way to lean her towards the one-piece suit. I would also consider fun activities that would encourage healthier living. Going to the pool, starting a family membership at the Y, making it a ritual to go biking together etc.