sapiens

Like any other treatment (medical or psychological), there may be individual differences in the effectiveness of particular therapeutic approach. However, when it comes to selecting a particular therapeutic approach, I would choose one that has demonstrable effects above chance (error, placebo effects, regression to the mean, etc.). Some people may report benefits from regular treatments with crystals. I would want to see a properly designed experimental evaluation of the treatment before I recommended crystal therapy to anyone.

I'm not familiar with any empirical research that reports its results in the way you do above. Do you have references for these studies? It's hard to evaluate your claims without reference to the studies you cite.

I'm not sure how to evaluate this claim. It doesn't speak to the validity of psychodynamic therapies. Most clinical psychologists report using an eclectic approach. (Meaning that they use therapies derived from variety of different theoretical perspectives). Different types of therapy have been empirically demonstrated to be effective for different types of mental illness. Clinical psychologists who I know that offer psychoanalysis do report that some of their clients request it, especially those that like to construct personal narratives of their lives. This does not speak to the effectiveness of such therapies in treating any particular mental illness.

Wow. I'll try to end my threadjacking now.

How was this demonstrated?

I will certainly educate my children about gender typical clothing. (Not that they need it, most kids just figure it out). That said, in my opinion, allowing or forbidding a boy from wearing dresses is not going to have much of an effect one way or the other. Given loving and supportive parents, the kid is going to turn out how the kid is going to turn out.

Willravel

I'm not recommending that anyone do this. I was simply trying to address your questions/comments. Clearly I don't have access to any verifiable information on the subject—note that I've simply asked colleges and former schoolmates—I've not researched this topic at length), but you're still pushing it as if you've got something to prove. I admitted that, yes, I misspoke (or rather miswrote) and intended to suggest psychotherapy. Would you like to ask me a question regarding the underlying reason you're responding?

How does this make you feel?
Did you miss the "if"? Again, I wasn't quoting a study, but rather posing a hypothetical question.

jewels

Maybe he's having social issues because he's been told he has to conform to someone else's idea of what's appropriate.

If he's not hurting anyone else and it makes him happy, he should wear the dress. Just be sure to teach him to wear styles that flatter him.

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sapiens

I just like talking about psychology and therapeutic methods.

Damn right you did! (/kidding)

Unloved? Sexually inadequate?

EDIT: Oops. I should have waited to use that "/kidding" here.

I did miss the "if". I am honestly interested in any studies that demonstrate the superior effectiveness of therapies derived from a psychodynamic theoretical perspective. So, when you said "15%" I thought you might be familiar with particular studies.

Willravel

I see. *writes something down on note pad*. Tell me about your father....
I'll see if I can dig something up. My mom has access to a lot more studies than I do, I'm sure she'll have something.

BTW, would you be comfortable sharing what level of education you have on the subject? As good faith, I have a BA.

Glory's Sun

to clarify.. I wouldn't really have a problem with it. However, there is something to be said about the education of society and it's subtle and glaring idea's and conformations. I would venture to say that it takes most tv/tg's years to accept and get over these issues. Most teens have social issues and anxieties as it is.. so just letting him wear it without some sort of helpful advice may not be the smart thing to do.

Sapiens: as far as "how was this demonstrated", I guess I should really expand on where I got that stat from. It came from a sex book from Tracey Cox. I can't remember which one but I'll let you know when I get back. I believe she cites a source for that stat (although stats don't really hold much water). I think I may have the book at home so I'll look it up and see what exactly it entails. Maybe I misread it? I'm not a shrink so I can't begin to jump into the discussion that you and will continue to hold.

abaya

/me waits to see if Sapiens will offer up more details, this time...

(The only thing I ever remember you posting about this was that you had a PhD--I think--and that you have published a lot of research articles in peer-reviewed journals, which had me convinced and VERY curious as to who you are!)

/threadjack about the mysterious Sapiens

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sapiens

Stats don't really hold much water?
Back to your point: I just don't know how one could demonstrate that cross-dressing is due to a "subconscious belief in a woman's superior sexuality and the raw power of their sexuality".
Yikes! That definitely doesn't sound like something that I would say. If I did, I'm an ass.

abaya

Really??! Shoot. Maybe I was thinking of someone else all this time, lol. I didn't mean to say that you sounded like an ass... was just summarizing something I remembered you saying before. But the main question is (at least, in this threadjack): is it true? Have you published in peer-reviewed journals, etc? Or is my memory totally playing tricks on me?

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Glory's Sun

perhaps it was merely a stat based on the response of those that said they did it?

no I don't put alot of stock into stats. statistics in most cases can be skewed to favor any view put on the table. as I said before, it's just something I read that seemed to make sense. I would believe that most guys do in fact realize that women are sexual creatures and that they hold a superior sexuality. Most guys want to act macho and think they are the ones that hold the key to sex, but in my eyes, it's the women that hold the keys.

Ustwo

Long as it feels good man, long as it feels good.

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Willravel

And here I was convinced that you'd never post a picture of yourself.

Lovely picture.

Ustwo

Like I'd be caught dead in that hat.

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Martian

I'm more confused by the concept of a 'young old son' than by men wearing dresses.

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sapiens

Not young young, not old old, but young old. Duh! What's so confusing about that?

TotalMILF

My 2.5-year-old's school has a huge dress-up corner where the boys often fight over the heels and skirts while the girls go for the accessories. I think it's great to give them a chance to experiment.

Today my son wanted some of my sparkly pink nail polish so I painted all his nails for him. He thinks his pretty nails are SOOOO cool. I want to make sure that he develops good decision-making abilities, confidence, and a strong sense of self from a young age, and this includes letting let him decide what he wants to wear. I will also make sure he knows what the social consequences might be if he chooses to wear girls' clothing and nail polish to school when he's older.

A friend of our family has an 8-year-old son who has been wearing nail polish and dressing how he pleases since he was able to do so. He is the most interesting, well-spoken, well-behaved, kindest and most tolerant kid I've ever met, and he is quite popular.

Really, if your kid is happy and healthy, why would you care what they wear? A boy in a skirt isn't hurting anybody.

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Xazy

Simple for me, religiously a boy should not dress as a girl or vice versa, and the age of education starts at 3-5 so I would say pretty much no to this.

abaya

Religiously? I'm not sure what that means... what's your personal opinion? (Not meant to be snarky, but just curious.)

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Xerxys

I have no patience for any religious stand points in life, my personal opinion is they were made a long time ago for other reasons.

Ustwo, your right, as long as it feels good baby, as long as it feels good. Just don't get caught or seen by the candidates you want to vote you into office, or by the president of the company you want to become CEO to, (unless it's tranny's-are-US!!).

Social consequences being the main point I'm heading towards, this can affect the person in question only if he/she and the parent is irresponsible. This doesn't mean the kid will grow up to be a stoner or not motivated enough to get things done. Coupled with other things; ignorance, abuse, yes, it probably does but essentially it translates later on into decisiveness, either good, or bad, I mean, look at George Bush!!!!

Willravel

Deuteronomy 22:5 "A woman must not wear men's clothing, nor a man wear women's clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this."

For context:
Deuteronomy 22:11 "Don’t wear clothing woven from two kinds of thread: for instance, wool and linen together."

Xazy has been victimized by having religion taught partially literal and partially symbolic, which I understand causes confusion. I'm sure that Xazy has worn a blended fabric before, completely unaware that it's a sin in the eyes of god. I'm even sure that, now confronted by these verses, he will choose to accept that wearing blended fabrics cannot be a sin (as it's nonsensical), and will continue to do so. The question would be:

Will Xazy, armed with Biblical context and forced to disobey the same part of the Bible in which he is determined to obey, decide that the Bible is sometimes literal and sometimes not literal and he's free to choose himself? Or will he realize that if one can dismiss one part of the Bible as incorrect that it challenges the infallibility of the whole text? Or will he stop wearing blended fabrics?

I eagerly await any more posts from Xazy, a member I respect a great deal.

Xerxys

Will, I should say, I have assumed your age, (from the posts I've read) and I think that you are way too wise for your age. As for the bible, Qoran, Torah, etc etc, I think they are all right in trying to tell us how to live life, righteously and consciously, just they tried a bit too hard and went way too far to institutionalize us by telling us how to dress, what to feel, where to do this and that!!!

The holy books were written in a time where government was comprised of the religion, so not very accurate, in order to fuel politics and fulfill agendas. As to the OP, as I try to keep this thread in track, is it a) what are the moral ramifications of letting your son indulge in this activity, or b) what will be the outcome??

if a) then that can only be determined by your religion. Your faiths and beliefs can answer that question in absolute. I'm not saying they will be right or wrong though, I'm just saying they will play a large role in how you raise the child.

if b) That can only be determined in how well you instilled a sense of self and confidence. If they can't learn from any experience, then clearly you have a lot more work to do.

MSD

Your son is playing along because he thinks he'll get some if he plays along with the girls who are flirting with him.
I never wore dresses, but I was always the kid who enjoyed being weird and standing out. My parents tried to guide me toward acting more normally, but I wouldn't have any of it. I had very few friends through elementary and middle school, making a few more friends, mostly fellow nerdy or weird outcasts, along the way. In high school I ended up with a big group of friends who, looking back, accepted that I hung out with them (to the extent that my mom would let me hang out with the weird people,) but never really liked me. I always had high hopes of being successful and I figured that the people who said that being myself was the way to do it were right.

Those people were full of shit. I made no new friends in my first year of college and made no progress in life. My second year, I saw that one of my friends from high school was in the Student Government room and I went in to say hi, I never left. I was quiet at first, but slowly I started acting like a "normal" person, keeping my interests but adapting to social norms that you have to fit into to be around normal people. Over the next few years I realized that I should have tried a bit better to fit in. My parents told me what I had to do but never fully explained why (my dad worked long hours and was tired when he got home, my mom did most of the raising the kids but never really understood me, what I got from my dad was the stuff that helped me the most because he understood more about how to get me to understand than my mom did.)

Did I enjoy being the weird kid when I was? Hell, yeah. Would I do it again? Fuck, no! If I could go back and do it all over again, I'd spare myself the verbal and physical abuse of other kids, being a social outcast, and if I did it just a little differently, I'd still have the friends that I'm still in touch with today and wouldn't have wasted so much of my life. There should be some individuality, but there are basic things you have to do to get by. The parents need to explain to the kid that individuality is important, but there are certain things you just have to do. If he hits puberty and it's looking like he's genuinely transgendered, that's when they need to get him professional medical consultation and psychoanalysis/therapy to help him either deal with living as a man or prepare him for a big change when he's an adult.

AKR

Its not about the clothes for me, its about function, first, and then what hte clothes represent, second.

The toga should have never been pitched out. Its a functional summer garment, looks extremely masculine when you wear it in the male style, and is simple. Its loose, which works well with the male anatomy. I have no problem with "single-legged garments" as a male style.

When you wear a women's skirt, its not that it is a skirt, its that its DESIGNED FOR A WOMAN. If there were such thing as a men's skirt, then there would be no problem. Notice that theres no problem when a guy wears a kiltz? Its the same as jeans, both genders wear jeans, but there are different jeans for each. First of all, theres social image to uphold. Second, a guy wearing a womens garment is just stupid, because women's garments were designed for a womans anatomy. If you are a man, you will find much more functionality and comfort in a mens garment. If you're wearing a woman's skirt, then there is something else going on than "its more comfortable". You're either showboating, living a fetish, or acting on some other mental compulsion.

If you're still going to do it, fine. But there are consequences. I get really irked when people start talking about how everyone should be able to act how they want without any social consequences, the whole, lets all get along idea. No. You can act how you want, but you have to accept that there are consequences for how you act, because there IS a system, whether you like it or not. You can either go with the system, reap the rewards, but suffer the restraints, or, you can ditch the system, live free, but expect no help from the other side.

TheNasty

For sure. When I was 15 I let 2 girls do a "makeover" on me, makeup, clothes, everything.

2 hours later one of them left and I had sex with the other.

Anyhow, to the point, I personally say yes, let him explore. Inform him of the social norms he'll be violating, and the likely responses he'll be faced with, and if he still wants to then so be it.

Nimetic

For sure - let him.

If it's just a 'try out', I figure it's better to do while a kid. And it's quite harmless in my view.

It's a bit odd when otherwise straight guys decide to try the drag thing out - later in life (eg at costume parties). I always wonder if they weren't allowed to play dress-ups as kids.

On that note... if the things we tried as kids had a permanent effect, then there'd be a lot more cowboys and pirates in the world eh.

xepherys

I agree that it's based at least mostly on age. If my 13 y/o son wanted to start wearing dresses, I'd would definitely discourage it severely. But, in the end, it should be their choice to make. There are some things they cannot choose to do, such as drugs or criminal activities. There are some things they CAN choose, such as style of dress and haircut. But yeah, it wouldn't be without instilling a strong understanding of why *I* don't like it.

dlish, the man jammies aren't dresses.

Xazy, the religious argument doesn't hold up. I'll mostly acquiesce to Wills post, but there are other religious fallacies involved in such literal interpretation. Many Christians like to play the new testament old testament game. Some old testament law is void or wrong because it's not part of the teachings of Jesus (as if in his mortal life he was supposed to offer a reteaching of all lessons and laws provided for thousands of years prior in the old testament. Cake + eating? At any rate, until you go around stoning adulterers to death, summoning Deuteronomy as a staple of life's laws seems counterproductive.

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mixedmedia

I don't think clothes are the issue at all. It's whether the child is happy and has a healthy self-image. I certainly don't see boys wanting to dress in girl's clothing (or vice versa) as necessarily telling as to a lack of either of those things.

While, in my opinion, straitjacketing young people to the tired, old roles most of us end up having to assume for the greater part of our lives could be indicative of them. Or, at the very least, indicative of the fear of being different (ie, embarrassment).

I don't know about you, but I find that be much more sad and depressing than a 10-year-old-boy who delights in wearing his sister's Barbie t-shirts to the grocery store.

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MSD

It's wrong to force more than the absolute basic social norms on someone, but you're not going to convince more than 15% of people to agree with you. Until a kid is at least old enough to have a basic understanding of what this means, he's not going to understand, and the best thing is to explain that he has to wait until he's older to make some decisions.

If he does this in elementary school, he's going to be "the boy who wears dresses" for the next 10 years.

mixedmedia

In my experience growing up, I found that attempts to 'fit in' and deny how I really was led to some of the worst choices I made as an adolescent. I think we put way too much emphasis on 'fitting in.' And it doesn't work anyway. People still think we're weird, call us names and, like I said, if we are happy and have a healthy self-image, we get over it.

Also, very important, is finding acceptance in the people who matter.

Your family and friends.

Everything else is bullshit.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Nimetic

I may have mis-understood this topic.

Are we talking about a kid that wants to wear dresses in public, to normal events - or are we talking dress-ups at home?

Strange Famous

After he's 18 he can do what he wants.

Before that, I would do what I could to discourage him dressing in women's clothes.

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spindles

that doesn't count - you are out in a desert "Lawrence of Arabia" style...

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telekinetic

This thread makes me want to ask my grandfather to send me a Gordon clan kilt and regalia.

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spindles

back to the original topic - let them wear what they want. Im my case that means my 4yo always wants to wear the shirt with the motor bike on it. That's fine. If he wanted to wear a dress (which I doubt he will do, as he already knows 'they are for girls'), I'd say 'fine'.

edit - unless it was too short - I don't really want his arse hanging out of it

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Nimetic

Don't take this the wrong way, but if we are talking public dress wearing here... My light-hearted suggestion is to plot with some friends. (I'm assuming a very young child ).

Then when you visit them - they "treat him as a girl" and make the experience deliberately unpleasant. Lots of food preparation, dish-washing, tidying, gossip, shopping and playing with dolls. I don't know. (Remember that I'm joking okay?)

That might put him off skirts for a couple of years.

This is probably a completely stupid idea though. I only raise it because it's a funny concept in theory.

bad jane

this thread makes me chuckle i don't think i could take my son wanting to wear a dress in a stride. i'd give him a look and bad as it may be, would question the choice. at home, i'd most likely allow it but i wouldn't let him go out in public that way. wish i could be cool and say it doesn't matter and all that, but i'm confident i'd have a problem with it. he can have dolls and play house, he can even play dress up if he wants, but wearing a dress in public is where i'd draw the line.

my parents were pretty strict about our dress code growing up. i didn't pick out my clothes or my hairstyle till i was finishing up in high school and even then, my options were limited. i think some flexibility from my parents would have been nice, because sometimes their choices made me stand out to my peers more than my own choices would have.

kate jack

If he's okay with it then he's welcome to. I'd never try and stop him.

maudlinae

Your definition of a well-lived life =/= mine or many other people's

It also seems to me that your examples don't show that letting your child wear what they want and enforcing gender roles that are fluid and different depending on the environment in which you find yourself helps your child become what you term "successful." I find it hard to believe that cross-dressing was a cause and not more of a concurrent happening. Perhaps you see it as a sign of bad parenting, I fail to see this illustrated in your examples.

That said, my boyfriend wore women's clothing all the time in high school (to be noted: college age now) and I have yet to see any negative effects that stem from cross-dressing in him or, indeed, in many others I know who wear what they want regardless of notions of "girl clothes" and "boy clothes."

My (future) child is free to wear anything they want provided it isn't ridiculously age inappropiate. So long as they are happy and expressing themselves in their chosen way then I am as well.

Seer666

Well, it's his call. If that is what he wants, then that is what he wants. Long as he understands that he will have to deal with a few issues from public opinion. But so help me, I never want to know if he wears thongs or not.

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QuasiMondo

I like rules. They keep things in order and prevent the decay of society into chaos. If it were my kid, the answer would be no.

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