Miss Mango

I would think it a bad thing if a parent didnt allow this. Not only does it enforce the idea of gender roles (which I dont agree with) but also suggests that there is something wrong with it. Which there isnt - be it just dress up which for most it probably is, or an expression of something less frivolous and passing. I actually know a (straight) guy who sometimes wears skirt type ensembles out and about. He doesnt consider himself a transvestite but simply looks at clothes above gender specificities and simply wears what he likes the look of/is comfortable. An eccentric view but I think a valid one.

What are your thoughts?

Jinn

Before 6? Yes.
After 6? No.

I support generic gender roles like "what clothing is appropriate for a man and a woman." I don't support gender roles like "women clean and cook."

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Willravel

Let him do it but explain that there might be social consequences.

Ustwo

I think your friend is an attention whore, or just not telling you the whole truth.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

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Willravel

Cross-dressing can happen with heterosexual men separate from fetishism and "attention whoring". Assuming motives for cross-dressing without careful psychoanalysis is irresponsible.

canuckguy

I'll bite, how?



As for the OP, i am not sure how i would handle this situation. Depends on what the kid wants to wear i guess. A pink shirt from his sisters closet, no probs....her 1 piece bathing suit? mmmm not so sure.

Willravel

One reason is rooted in gender confusion in heterosexual men. Another reason is that it's taboo. There are numerous reasons.

sapiens

I agree that assuming motives without even knowing the person is unwise, but careful psychoanalysis? Seems like an oxymoron to me. Show me the benefit of psychoanalysis and I may reconsider. (Note: Psychoanalysis is not the same as psychotherapy).

Regarding the OP: How I would handle it would depend on the age of the child.

abaya

My friend has a 5 year old son who has preferred to wear girls' clothing (and I mean, the full on princess-type dresses, Snow White and all) since he was old enough to have personality, apparently. Before age 3, that's for sure. And he doesn't show any signs of slowing down or changing that preference anytime soon. He's an extremely confident kid and doesn't seem to care what anyone else thinks of him... it's actually pretty cool to watch. I know it would be hard to resist imposing social rules of what men/women should wear on a kid, but I'd like to think that I would encourage my son/daughter to dress however they want, for as long as they want (in terms of gender "style," I don't mean dressing like that girl in the nasty prom dress from the other thread!).

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

SSJTWIZTA

thats a tough one. if you tell him no and scold him could it cause some confusion? would he be able to understand why? Maybe hes just using his youthful imagination and fucking around. i remember when i was younger i walked around in high heels once or twice because i thought it was goofy and wanted to know "hey, whats the deal with these things"

i dont really know, im not qualified for shit like this.

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First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me.
-Pastor Martin Niemoller

Bear Cub

I say ask the kid.

If its for dress up/pretend, then sure. If its because he likes it, well, my kid isn't wearing any tutu in his lifetime short of pulling a Van Wilder.

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Living in the United Socialist States of America.

Willravel

If you're looking for modern applied psychoanalysis read Spotnitz.

And yes, I meant psychotherapy. This is what happens when you take a career that doesn't involve your field of study.

Charlatan

My son played dress up with he was two or three and he'd wear dresses. He's 13 now and wouldn't be caught dead in a dress. That said, a group of girls put nail polish on him recently and he's still wearing that (although it's quite chipped).

Since coming here, I wear a sarong quite a bit. It keeps me cool.

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Ustwo

My guess is that most parents who do the 'my child can make up his own mind on this' at an early age are the ones who's kids will be pretty useless and posting about how their life sucks somehow on a future TFP.

I know 4 kids a bit younger or my age raised this way by 2 different sets of parents.

3 of them are children of a multi-millionaire, the other is the child of perhaps the most brilliant and hard working man I've met.

The 3 are all barely working, sponging off dad as best they can get, and the one works as a DJ, completely sleeved tatoo wise, at 36. All are nice guys but won't amount to anything. And before someone gets on the 'amounts to anything' band wagon, when you have a lot of potential (all of them are quite intelligent) but no motivation, no discipline, no drive beyond what feels good, it sad to see such a man stumble through life, and I blame the parents in both cases.

There are fights to fight but fighting society on male/female clothing is a pretty stupid one.

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Charlatan

There are fights to fight but this is not one of them. I'd rather save it for more important things... and I have.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

match000

Ok, as expected of spoiled children. To be honest, I am kind of spoiled myself but I do work hard.

So what happened to the kid of the hard working parent?

sapiens

I'm familiar with modern psychoanalysis. I have not seen any convincing evidence that it is remotely as effective as cognitive behavioral therapy (or any other therapy for that matter) in the treatment of any psychological disorders.

I'm not sure what to make of your 3 examples. It seems likely that there are other issues besides the 'my child can make up his own mind on this' issue that you cite. I'm also not convinced that your examples relate to the cross-dressing question.

RetroGunslinger

As up for cross-dressing as I am (the link in my signature actually leads to a picture of such a happening), I've read too many serial killer biographies that start with that bullshit. No dresses, no make-up, and no hanging out with mommy for more than three hours a day.

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Ustwo

Hes the 36 year old DJ, completely sleeved, dropped out of college.

His dad did the 'as long as they are good people' child rearing method, and he is a good guy, but completely useless beyond that.

He was never spoiled with wealth, his father was not rich, but spoiling isn't really about money.

It was 4 examples, I wasn't clear.

It relates to letting your kids do what they want to do because they want to at an early age. This is assuming the kids are not transgendered. Thats what I see as the real question here.

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Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

dlish

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Willravel

It wouldn't be really Freudian anymore, but quite honestly I'm surprised that you're not familiar with psychoanalyses being used. A good friend of mine who's getting his masters was explaining something called "emotion focus therapy" to me the other day. It's really deep stuff, and he's seen that it helps with repressed emotion in many individuals.

It's not as common simply because it takes a lot longer and it's a lot more intense than it's cognitive counterpart. You don't see insurance covering it, so it's not considered common, but it's certainly there.

Just out of curiosity, what field do you work in?

Punk.of.Ages

Sounds like a guy that does what he wants to in life. Noble pursuit in a society that mostly consists of people who believe unless you went to college, wear a suit, and hate your job you're a useless loser.

More on the subject; any child I raise will do what they want as far as self expression goes. I didn't get any freedom when I was a child, and to this day I think it was wrong. I will not lay the same upon my child.

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Ustwo

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Punk.of.Ages

I'm not fat, stupid, nor drunk (at the moment.)

I never went to college, and I'm quite successful.

I also used to wear skirts as a teenager.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Ustwo

You are also a kid, give it 14 years and call me back.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

You don't have to measure up to Ustwo to be a success, POA. If you're honestly happy, you're successful.

robot_parade

I'm not sure how I'd deal with this, but a couple who are friends of ours have a son who wears dresses sometimes. He's 9 now, and seems to be growing out of it. I think I agree with willravel above.

Punk.of.Ages

I shall, and I guarantee that I'll be happy. That's most important in my life.

On that note, I apologize for derailing this thread, and this will be the last rebuttal I give towards the thread jack.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Ustwo

World needs ditch diggers too, if they are happy thats fine, but I'm not going to raise my kids to be ditch diggers.

My father pushed me when needed and I'm damn glad he did, if anything he didn't push hard enough.

There are limits on both ends of parenting, you can push too hard or push in wrong directions, but children need to be led as well.

You can lead them into a world where they are healthy, don't have to worry about money, and they feel pride in what they do, or let wander aimlessly and celebrate drunkenness and 420 while working a meaningless job for the cash only with no future.

I got my major kick in the ass at 23, I only wish it came sooner in college so I'd have not wasted those two years after college.

Being happy short term is easy, looking back at your life and thinking 'that was well spent' is hard.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Xerxys

Rather uncalled for, no one defines what is adult and whats juvenile, I think what he means to say is that there are things you can lay ground rules on, like going to school on time. You don't show up late because you get good grades now do you? Wearing a skirt isn't one of them.

To the OP, you kiddo can wear whatever the hell he wants to right now, that doesn't mean you let him stay up late and watch TV all night is it?? It's a learning process, It could go good or maybe just OK, then he might not change, well, not bad, I guess, absolutely nothing wrong with that. It could go terrible: kids teasing him at school, etc, etc.... then he'll revert back to boy clothes.

This isnt a bad thing at all. It's not a personality defining process.

If anything, I wish I was eccentric!! Or could be thought of as....

Ustwo

Yea it is, it is a needless distraction to education and development. Its like wearing a 'God hates Fags' t-shirt to school and expecting it to not change how your education goes.

I personally enjoy togas. I think they were a very good garment over all, and some of the western worlds greatest leaders wore them. I'm my own boss, I make the rules, I can wear a toga to work and there isn't a damn thing anyone could do about it. It would also be a needless distraction. Life is hard enough without fucking with things for little point just for the sake of fucking with them.

I like togas, but you know, pants work just fine too.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Xerxys

What do you mean? Do you mean that it distracts other people from learning and developing?? If so, people can cope, with things, they can get angry if they want to or they can just ignore the damn skirt and get along with life. Life is way to important to go on worrying about what other fucks who dont give a shit about you think.

Do you mean it prevents the kiddo from learning and developing?? If so, quite the opposite, I like to think the kid is learning, something = "I hate being made fun of" or "They're making fun of me and I like the attention" or "They're making fun of me and guess what.... I don't give a shit!!!!!"

If he/she is way too young, then obviously he won't develop a personality like this, if not, fuck it, the kids got guts!! C'mon, Ustwo, wear a toga every now and then, your not wearing it to work are you, or to church or to a wedding? If you have respect for others, then you deserve some, wear a toga to the park, wear a toga and scratch your balls in the living room, wear a toga Ustwo. It feels good!!!!!!

Punk.of.Ages

Haha.

I concur.

I think you would wear a toga well Ustwo.

__________________
"The fact is that censorship always defeats its own purpose, for it creates, in the end, the kind of society that is incapable of exercising real discretion..." - Henry Steel Commager

"Punk rock music is great music played by really bad, drunk musicians." -Fat Mike

Ustwo

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

abaya

Ustwo, what does all of your rambling about discipline and structure have to do with letting a kid choose to wear a dress? It's not like if you let him wear a dress, that everything else necessarily must go to shit. The parents of the boy I mentioned earlier are both quite regimented in the way they raise their son (school, bed on time, homework, etc), but that has very little to do with what kind of clothes they decide to let the boy wear. (Not that you are going to give an inch in this debate, or any, but oh well.)
Nice try, but he probably won't answer... I've tried to figure it out, too, but he keeps mum! All I can say is, as far as I've seen on this board, Sapiens is never wrong (or very rarely). The man knows his social science and statistics.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

Everyone has a different view of success, but mine coincides more closely with Ustwo's than the "let them be who they are" view; they are two very different schools of thought.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

sapiens

I'm familiar with psychoanalysis being used. I'm also familiar with empirical research on the topic. From my experience, most therapies derived from the psychodynamic perspective are not as effective (at least as measured by peer-reviewed empirical research). Perhaps that is why they are not as common.

I'm frequently wrong. There is also quite a lot in social science and statistics that I do not know. (That's probably an understatement). Thank you for the compliment though.

Back to the OP: What kind of harm will be caused by letting a boy wear a dress?

abaya

You're welcome. And okay, I am sure you are wrong, now and then... but for the most part, you know more about social science and stats than 99% of the people in this forum, and that makes you a respectable authority around here. As a beginner in those areas, I learn from you every time you post something... I have a lot to learn.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Glory's Sun

actually, there's something like 75% of straight men have tried on women's clothing at one point in their lives. It often stems from a subconscious belief in a woman's superior sexuality and the raw power of their sexuality. Then there's also the guy who's just curious as to what it feels like..and the guy who feels trapped in a man's body..etc.

anyway, back to the OP, I'd say it depends on the kid. If a kid is already having major social issues, it may be better to focus on those issues first before he starts donning mini skirts and halter tops.

Willravel

I'm sure you're aware that peer reviewed empirical research may demonstrate the success rate of a given method, however in psychology what is or isn't effective can change from person to person. If a given technique or framework is demonstrated to be helpful to 15% of people in several peer reviewed studies, then that 15% has been treated successfully.

By my understanding many psychologists attend therapy sessions with a psychologist that uses a psychoanalytic framework.