Fight it in court. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Meier_Link · 02-11-2008, 06:17 PM

I got ticket today, not the first time it has ever happened, but probably the first time it's happened that I didn't deserve it. I was driving along minding my own business when this girl comes up on me fast. I let her pass and then get back in the left lane. About this time I notice a cop making a u-turn in the middle of the road. I get back in the right lane because I know who he's going after and I don't want there to be any confusion. He puts his lights on, races past me and pulls the girl over in the middle of the road. Then he proceeds to quickly jump off his motorcycle, stop traffic and point to me telling me to pull over as well. I do as he says and tell him that I wasn't going anywhere close to as fast as she was, at least 5 or 10 mph less. He tells me that he saw me following her, clocked us at 63 (in a 45) and proceeds to write me a ticket. He hands me the ticket, tells me he clocked me at 63 but he wrote the ticket for 57 because that's how fast I told him I was going. I reiterate that I never told him exactly what speed I was going and he tells me that if I don't lose my attitude then they won't reduce it in court.

I've never fought a speeding ticket in court before, though I have paid more than my fair share, but it seems to me that it would be a miscarriage of justice for me to simply roll over, plead guilty and pay a reduced fine. It seems to me that the only thing I did was drive in the wrong lane at the wrong time. I've made up my mind that I will fight this ticket on principle and the best possible outcome I can imagine is that I am found not guilty and he receives some kind of official reprimand.

Of course, no matter how it turns out, I still lose. I miss work, drive all over the place and sit in court all day just because some asshole doesn't know how to do his fucking job.

Corneo · 02-11-2008, 07:22 PM

Sounds like you got screwed buddy. Hopefully the judge will go easy on you.

vanblah · 02-11-2008, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meier_Link

... he receives some kind of official reprimand.

If he even shows up in court that day AND you actually have a good lawyer ... he will still never receive any kind of reprimand. Ever.

The best you can hope for is to have it thrown out; which might happen if the cop is a no-show.

You still pay court costs.

No matter how you slice it: you lose.

Xazy · 02-11-2008, 09:29 PM

Article

Quote:

How to beat that traffic ticket
Friday March 30, 2007 6:00 am ET
Craig Guillot

If you've ever been ticketed for speeding or running a red light, you already know that the fine you pay may only be the beginning of your cost.

If it's your second offense, that mistake may very well drain a whopping $700 out of your pocket over the next three years. That's because, on average, a driver's insurance premiums can increase by 25 percent after a second violation.

Most traffic courts rely on the fact that nine out of 10 drivers will just pay their tickets and move on. Established to expedite cases quickly and efficiently, traffic courts serve as vital sources of revenue for many counties.

Their desire to get you in and out can work in your favor when fighting a ticket. Attorneys who specialize in traffic court cases have very high dismissal rates based simply on technicalities. In many cases, with a little effort and research you can obtain the same results.

Auto clubs and insurers are unlikely to publicly give drivers tips for beating tickets in court, but there are a number of things you can do on your own to keep your tickets off your driving record.

Alex Carroll, author of "Beat the Cops: the Guide to Fighting Your Traffic Ticket and Winning," says that challenging a ticket is one of the easiest things a person can do in the legal system. Carroll runs a Web site that gives people information they can use to fight their tickets. As a former courier that was "basically paid to speed," he has beaten eight out of 10 of his tickets.

Those who have successfully beaten a traffic citation all agree that one should never immediately pay the fine -- it's an automatic admission of guilt. Even those who are honest about their guilt will find that many counties offer special pleas for first-time offenders that will keep the violation off the driving record under probational conditions that can often include driving school.

Aaron Quinn, communications director for the National Motorists Association, says that his organization pushes for better speed limits and fair enforcement practices. He says the organization played a role in the repeal of the 55-mph national maximum speed limit in 1995 and sells the "Guerilla Ticket Fighter," a tape that shows drivers how to fight their tickets.

"Never plead guilty or no contest, especially if it's your first ticket. If you have a clean driving record, your chances of keeping it off your record are much better," says Quinn.

If that's not an option, you'll need to learn a little bit more about the legal process. Carroll recommends going to the courthouse to file a discovery motion or a public records request. You can check the ticketing officer's notes, calibration records for radar guns and verify that all data was recorded correctly.

"Many times, one of those documents turns up out-of-date, doesn't exist or is inaccurate and you end up winning by default because they don't have their paperwork together," says Carroll.

Scott McCoy, a driver from northern California, recently beat a ticket by filing motions until he found erroneous paperwork.

If all the paperwork is in order, offenders can then attempt to speak with the assistant district attorney and state their reasons why they should reconsider the charges. Carroll says that many people are successful by simply contesting their ticket through the mail (also known as "trial by declaration") with a detailed and well-thought-out defense. Defendants can have an advantage with this method because, unless the officer submits his or her own written rebuttal, it's a one-sided argument.

"Very few people fight their tickets with the trial by declaration option. Unless it's a kangaroo court, the judge will usually drop it if you make a coherent argument," says Carroll.

When faced with a court date, try to delay or postpone the trial as long as possible. In many courts, it's not uncommon to have a court date three months after the offense occurred. At the very least, a postponement in the trial is postponing a conviction and the resulting increase in insurance premiums. Quinn also recommends asking for a trial by jury because it places a further burden on crowded courts and increases the chances of dismissal.

Another advantage in postponing the court date is that it can significantly increase the odds that the officer will not be present during the trial. Because a defendant always has the constitutional right to question their accuser, most judges will drop the case if the officer does not show or submit testimony.

"You always want to make it more difficult for them to show up," Carroll says. "Never go with the date on your ticket. That's usually a 'gang date' for the officer. If you schedule for an extension that falls on a different day, chances are they aren't going to come in on their day off just for you."

Contrary to popular belief, Carroll says that camera-issued tickets are often the easiest to beat because a defendant has a constitutional right to question their accuser. Courthouses will rarely go through the trouble of bringing the video or picture to court, and even if they do, there is no human subject to question other than the officer who viewed the it.

"The minute he opens his mouth, you just object because it's hearsay and the ticket will be dropped," Carroll says. "Most people just don't have the courage to do this though. That's why some of these cities are making millions of dollars per camera. They know you're not going to do that."

While traffic cameras are becoming more common, their legality is being debated in courtrooms around the country.

Not all agree that people can fight their own tickets. In some states such as Texas, California and Florida, attorneys have thriving businesses fighting traffic citations and aren't eager to encourage do-it-yourselfers. While he uses some of the same tactics, California attorney Stanley Alari insists that motorists don't stand a chance in court on their own. Alari goes by the moniker "Stan the Radar Man" and has beaten thousands of tickets in California court rooms.

"Cases often get dismissed because police officers are often not prepared and don't bring the necessary evidence to convict somebody. Still, a defendant needs a competent traffic ticket lawyer or he's going to lose," says Alari.

While one can always hire a lawyer, the fees aren't always worth it for minor violations, especially when it's a first offense. Texas, California, Florida and New York have thriving traffic ticket law businesses with low fees, but in most states, legal representation for minor violations isn't cost effective. With a little homework and time, many traffic citations can be overcome and whether you're guilty or not, you probably don't want to pay increased insurance premiums if you don't have to.

"It's not really hard to do," Carroll says. "It just takes some work. You need to put in a little time. If you're making millions of bucks, it isn't worth it. But for the average person, it's worth your time because those insurance surcharges are pretty costly."

Hope this article helps.

Meier_Link · 02-12-2008, 06:56 AM

Thanks Xazy, that gives me some hope.

jewels · 02-12-2008, 07:21 AM

Two words: Ticket Clinic

They've always come through for me.

MiSo · 02-13-2008, 12:33 AM

i used to live in miami, fl and to get out of a ticket was a breeze.

Ticket Buster = $80
if you win, thats all you paid.
if they don't win, they try to deal with the judge so you get no points on your liscense. you still have to pay the fine but hey, $80 to not have points/go to traffic school is a win.

i moved to georgia and they do not have anything like that. i looked into getting representation and the fees were rediculous. i remember being quoted in the $400 range.

if you have something similar service in your area, i suggest to use it.
hope the fight goes well.....

Hain · 02-13-2008, 02:04 AM

Quote:

Contrary to popular belief, Carroll says that camera-issued tickets are often the easiest to beat because a defendant has a constitutional right to question their accuser. Courthouses will rarely go through the trouble of bringing the video or picture to court, and even if they do, there is no human subject to question other than the officer who viewed the it.

"The minute he opens his mouth, you just object because it's hearsay and the ticket will be dropped," Carroll says. "Most people just don't have the courage to do this though. That's why some of these cities are making millions of dollars per camera. They know you're not going to do that."

Can someone explain this to me? I thought video evidence was solid in any court.

Xazy · 02-13-2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augi

Can someone explain this to me? I thought video evidence was solid in any court.

Basically there is several aspects to fighting a photo ticket:
1) Proof of service, being mailed to your house is not proof of service, so in theory you can ignore it and claim you never got served.
2) trial - demand an actual trial.
3) The picture has to show you not just anyone in the car.
4) You do not have to incriminate anyone else, I know sounds to be good be true, but that is the law.
5) Also they have to produce the actual picture of you, not just some fuzzy thing they mailed you. If they can not you can ask for the case to be dismissed since they did not produce it.
6) You also get to make sure they have a technician there to testify about the machine, being cleaned etc...

Meier_Link · 04-02-2008, 06:34 AM

Well, this morning I went to court determined to stick by my guns and plead not guilty. So that's what I did. The result was that I was asked to wait until everyone who plead guilty was finished. So after waiting around for an extra hour, I approached the bench, explained to the judge exactly what happened, as I did here earlier. The officer lied and told the judge that I told him I was going 57. Blatant fucking lie. I reiterated to the judge that I told the officer I was going slower than the car in front of me and never specifically said I was going 57. The judge, looking clever and self-satisfied, asked me how I could know how fast the car in front of me was going if I didn't have a radar gun. I told him the car was moving away from me, which meant it was going faster than I was. Then the judge says, "The court finds you guilty of speeding" and I am stuck paying the full fine and getting the 4 fucking points on my license.

I should have requested a trail by jury. I know I should have. I somehow naively thought that the judge would be reasonable and hear me out. Now I know that it's a kangaroo court.

Glory's Sun · 04-02-2008, 08:52 AM

and this is why you talk to the D.A. and leave the judge out of it completely.

dirtyrascal7 · 04-02-2008, 12:00 PM

You will lose a your-word-against-his case every time if you don't have other evidence or witnesses to back you up. When the clerk asked what plea you wish to enter, you should have requested to speak to the prosecutor. I've never had to face the accusing officer or explain my case to the judge. I've done this twice now and have gotten both tickets reduced significantly (one to a non-moving violation and the other to 4mph over), meaning I still have zero points on my license.

It sucks that you got screwed both on the road and in court... you just need to learn how to work the system. Life isn't over, though... even though you got the fine and the points, this experience shouldn't be too big of a setback.

Meier_Link · 04-03-2008, 10:14 AM

I hoped, but didn't expect, to beat this ticket. I knew it would be smarter to make a plea deal but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It would have been better for me if I had been speeding; it would have saved me time and money. It's good that it was a small matter that showed me that the court system can be unfair and unjust, now if something big comes along I know that I have lawyer up and try to beat the system on technicalities.

Cynthetiq · 04-03-2008, 10:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Meier_Link

I hoped, but didn't expect, to beat this ticket. I knew it would be smarter to make a plea deal but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It would have been better for me if I had been speeding; it would have saved me time and money. It's good that it was a small matter that showed me that the court system can be unfair and unjust, now if something big comes along I know that I have lawyer up and try to beat the system on technicalities.

that's correct. chock it up to tuition at the school of hard knocks.

that's why I often say I'd rather be happy than right.

02-11-2008, 06:17 PM	#1 (permalink)
Meier_Link Psycho Location: in a state of confusion	Fight it in court. I got ticket today, not the first time it has ever happened, but probably the first time it's happened that I didn't deserve it. I was driving along minding my own business when this girl comes up on me fast. I let her pass and then get back in the left lane. About this time I notice a cop making a u-turn in the middle of the road. I get back in the right lane because I know who he's going after and I don't want there to be any confusion. He puts his lights on, races past me and pulls the girl over in the middle of the road. Then he proceeds to quickly jump off his motorcycle, stop traffic and point to me telling me to pull over as well. I do as he says and tell him that I wasn't going anywhere close to as fast as she was, at least 5 or 10 mph less. He tells me that he saw me following her, clocked us at 63 (in a 45) and proceeds to write me a ticket. He hands me the ticket, tells me he clocked me at 63 but he wrote the ticket for 57 because that's how fast I told him I was going. I reiterate that I never told him exactly what speed I was going and he tells me that if I don't lose my attitude then they won't reduce it in court. I've never fought a speeding ticket in court before, though I have paid more than my fair share, but it seems to me that it would be a miscarriage of justice for me to simply roll over, plead guilty and pay a reduced fine. It seems to me that the only thing I did was drive in the wrong lane at the wrong time. I've made up my mind that I will fight this ticket on principle and the best possible outcome I can imagine is that I am found not guilty and he receives some kind of official reprimand. Of course, no matter how it turns out, I still lose. I miss work, drive all over the place and sit in court all day just because some asshole doesn't know how to do his fucking job. __________________ life is a sexually transmitted disease

02-12-2008, 06:56 AM	#5 (permalink)
Meier_Link Psycho Location: in a state of confusion	Thanks Xazy, that gives me some hope. __________________ life is a sexually transmitted disease

02-12-2008, 07:21 AM	#6 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	Two words: Ticket Clinic They've always come through for me. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

04-02-2008, 06:34 AM	#10 (permalink)
Meier_Link Psycho Location: in a state of confusion	04/02 Update Well, this morning I went to court determined to stick by my guns and plead not guilty. So that's what I did. The result was that I was asked to wait until everyone who plead guilty was finished. So after waiting around for an extra hour, I approached the bench, explained to the judge exactly what happened, as I did here earlier. The officer lied and told the judge that I told him I was going 57. Blatant fucking lie. I reiterated to the judge that I told the officer I was going slower than the car in front of me and never specifically said I was going 57. The judge, looking clever and self-satisfied, asked me how I could know how fast the car in front of me was going if I didn't have a radar gun. I told him the car was moving away from me, which meant it was going faster than I was. Then the judge says, "The court finds you guilty of speeding" and I am stuck paying the full fine and getting the 4 fucking points on my license. I should have requested a trail by jury. I know I should have. I somehow naively thought that the judge would be reasonable and hear me out. Now I know that it's a kangaroo court. __________________ life is a sexually transmitted disease

04-02-2008, 12:00 PM	#12 (permalink)
dirtyrascal7 That's what she said	You will lose a your-word-against-his case every time if you don't have other evidence or witnesses to back you up. When the clerk asked what plea you wish to enter, you should have requested to speak to the prosecutor. I've never had to face the accusing officer or explain my case to the judge. I've done this twice now and have gotten both tickets reduced significantly (one to a non-moving violation and the other to 4mph over), meaning I still have zero points on my license. It sucks that you got screwed both on the road and in court... you just need to learn how to work the system. Life isn't over, though... even though you got the fine and the points, this experience shouldn't be too big of a setback. __________________ "Tie yourself to your limitless potential, rather than your limiting past." "Every man I meet is my superior in some way. In that, I learn of him."

02-11-2008, 07:22 PM	#2 (permalink)
Corneo Insane	Sounds like you got screwed buddy. Hopefully the judge will go easy on you.

02-13-2008, 12:33 AM	#7 (permalink)
MiSo Psycho	i used to live in miami, fl and to get out of a ticket was a breeze. Ticket Buster = $80 if you win, thats all you paid. if they don't win, they try to deal with the judge so you get no points on your liscense. you still have to pay the fine but hey, $80 to not have points/go to traffic school is a win. i moved to georgia and they do not have anything like that. i looked into getting representation and the fees were rediculous. i remember being quoted in the $400 range. if you have something similar service in your area, i suggest to use it. hope the fight goes well.....

04-02-2008, 08:52 AM	#11 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	and this is why you talk to the D.A. and leave the judge out of it completely.

04-03-2008, 10:14 AM	#13 (permalink)
Meier_Link Psycho Location: in a state of confusion	I hoped, but didn't expect, to beat this ticket. I knew it would be smarter to make a plea deal but I couldn't bring myself to do it. It would have been better for me if I had been speeding; it would have saved me time and money. It's good that it was a small matter that showed me that the court system can be unfair and unjust, now if something big comes along I know that I have lawyer up and try to beat the system on technicalities. __________________ life is a sexually transmitted disease