Whats The Matter With Men? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Miss Mango · 12-09-2007, 10:35 PM

Though its source is typically biased, rarely objective, and very suspicious, I found a review for a book that seems to hit a massive issue that I see going mostly under-the-radar. I think Im going to buy the book, since the topic does interest me, and is certainly relevant.

Quote:

Whats the Matter with Men?
How the Environment, the Education System, and PlayStation Are Conspiring to Destroy the Male Species

by Christine Wenc
Whats the Matter with Men?
book by Dr. Leonard Sax
(Basic Books) $25.

So how many aimless and unmotivated young men do you know? If physician and research psychologist Leonard Sax is correct, doubtless you know many of them—or are one yourself. Do you spend most of your time playing video games? Are you taking medication for ADHD? Are you indifferent to school or a career? Then this book is about you.

Young women, on the other hand, seem to be surging. Elite colleges have a glut of accomplished female applicants, but have to work to find enough qualified men to achieve something close to a 50-50 male-female admissions ratio. By age 35, 35 percent of American women have earned a college degree, while only 23 percent of men have done so. Some experts say that within 10 years, twice as many women as men will have finished college.

And when these men and women form relationships or marry, all too often the woman is out conquering the world while her husband simply continues what he was doing before they got together—which is to say, not much. Even stay-at-home dads are in too many cases merely sitting around eating ice cream and watching TV with the kids, leaving the heavy housework to the mom when she finally gets home from work.

This territory has been covered before, but Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men presents a straightforward argument that incorporates solid research and, thankfully, does not blame feminism. What he does blame is a combination of social and scientific factors that have taken place over the last 30 years. These include the way students are taught in school, prescription drugs, video games, the ubiquity of environmental estrogens caused by pollution, and the devaluing of positive masculine roles on TV, in the movies, and in real life.

Today, Sax writes, schools have abolished competitive formats and emphasize simulated over physical experience. Nature, he writes, has been replaced by computer screens and fancy indoor toys. Schools have also accelerated the early elementary curriculum, which works against the way most boys brains develop. For instance, Sax writes, because boys mature more slowly than girls verbally, trying to teach 5-year-old boys to learn to read and write may be just as inappropriate as it would be to try to teach 3-year-old girls to read and write. All of this turns boys off to school at a young age and causes behavior problems.

Many of these behavior problems end up being labeled ADHD and medicated with Ritalin. In 2007, boys are 30 times as likely to be taking medication than in 1987. Sax is no fan of the drug. What parents dont know, he writes, is that even relatively short-term use of these drugs, for just a year or perhaps less, can lead to changes in personality. The boy who used to be agreeable, outgoing, and adventurous becomes lazy and irritable.

Video games fry your brain, too. Playing video games, Sax writes, gives boys the reward associated with achieving a great objective, but without any connection to the real world. The games have the power to displace and distort the motivation of boys and young men, so that they no longer have the same interest in real-world success and real-world achievement.

And what about those endocrine disrupters—the ones that change whole rivers of male fish into females? Hormone-disrupting chemicals are found in everyones bodies these days, a product of the ubiquity of plastic. Girls are now starting puberty at age 8, but boys development seems to be slowed. As a result, middle school has become a very strange place, with the girls appearing to be about 16, but the boys about 10.

Finally, where are the positive, mature male role models? Boys, Sax argues, must be taught to be men—and right now, most boys arent seeing anyone much better than Homer Simpson or 50 Cent to live up to, in real life or on TV. What does it mean to be a man today, he writes, a mature adult man?

Sax recommends pulling the plug on the games, making Ritalin a rare prescription, changing teaching methods in the early grades, and getting all these boys outside already, to play real games on real dirt.

He does manage to get his message across without being too nostalgic for an idyllic past that never actually happened. (After all, worries about the damaged masculinity of American boys go at least as far back as Teddy Roosevelts laments about what the end of readily available Indian killing and buffalo slaughtering would do to the character of the nations white male youth at the end of the 19th century.) Sax also makes sure to remind us that he doesnt think girls have it easier. But at a time when it is almost unusual to find a young man with drive and direction, Saxs work is an important part of a growing public discussion.

Original link;

walkdontwalk · 12-10-2007, 01:50 AM

Interesting... I played loads of games growing up, and I often feel as though my life would be more complete if there way an army of undead for me to slay

Always just thought it was because I'm not a typical Type-A personality...

abaya · 12-10-2007, 02:16 AM

Heh, I was obsessed with video games growing up, all the way through my early teens. I probably would benefit from being on ADHD medication, given my propensity to need constantly-changing stimuli every few minutes. And I completely lack motivation in school or a career (all academic drive left me when I started college). I must be a teenage male!!!!!

Oh wait, I'm a 28 year old female.

I did, however, grow up on a lot of land, so when I wasn't blistering my fingers on the Nintendo (literally--I often had Band-Aids on my thumbs, to keep playing), I was outside climbing trees and building forts. I think that's one of the few things that kept me somewhat sane as a kid... being grounded to tangible activities in the outdoors.

I don't think that's a gender thing, really. Every kid, male or female, would benefit from spending as much of their free time as possible in a safe, huge outdoor area with lots of stuff to explore. The second they start getting addicted to video games or TV, they should be hung using thumbscrews in a doorway.

At least, I wish someone had done that to me.

n0nsensical · 12-10-2007, 03:09 AM

Maybe there's more to life than "real-world success" and "real-world achievement", which as far as I can tell are just code words for making lots of money. So if we enjoy "sitting around eating ice cream and watching TV with the kids", what is the big fucking problem? What exactly are we supposed to be doing, going out and killing something? Getting rich so we can consume even more than your average oversize American lifestyle? This is the same hobby horse ridden by anti-drug crusaders. Personally I think this obsession with success is their problem, not ours.

I, for one, welcome our college-educated female overlords.

Ustwo · 12-10-2007, 06:47 AM

She's correct on all counts.

The education system is biased against boys, ADHD is a joke in most of the people getting the medication, and videogames do waste a ton of your potential.

Luckily for my son I've known this and I will have the means to send him to a private school as well as teach him on his own. My parents did this for me because the public school couldn't handle me, and I see the same signs in my son. They spent hours with me on homework and discipline, first to undo the damage of my first 4 school years in a public school, then to focus me and motivate me to what seemed boring and pointless. For example at age 8 I was in the bottom of my class (having convinced my teachers I wasn't able to do it) yet going to the library almost day to learn about spiders and insects at a level most people wouldn't see unless they went into invertebrate biology, on my own. My parents were unaware of this as well and it took an IQ test where they were looking for learning disabilities to discover that I didn't have a learning disability, I was just bored.

I was a bit of an extreme, but boys simply learn differently then girls, but the schools are not designed for this, mostly because for years we had well meaning idiots try to tell us that it was just society that made men different from women as well as the fact its EASIER to teach girls. Girls can learn from textbooks much sooner than boys, while boys are very hands on. Which is easier for a lazy public school union teacher to teach?

Unicase · 12-10-2007, 07:23 AM

Well it tend to be true that girls tend to be more academic than boys although I'm sure that games doesn't actually fry people brains. Although it's more to the fact that some teachers are seriously bad at teaching or we guys just don't want to learn what they are forcing us to learn. But then again, this is matter of opinion.

Jinn · 12-10-2007, 08:02 AM

Hey look! More biased, UNRESEARCHED opinion about how great women are and how bad men are.

I haven't seen this before.

It's funny that I don't see any citation from research, only "Sax writes" and 'Sax believes'. I wonder why?

Ustwo · 12-10-2007, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

Hey look! More biased, UNRESEARCHED opinion about how great women are and how bad men are.

I haven't seen this before.

It's funny that I don't see any citation from research, only "Sax writes" and 'Sax believes'. I wonder why?

Hostile much?

Its true, and the learning part is very much backed up by research, I don't have the references with me but would it matter?

I've personally always thought ADHD is mostly just boys being boys.

And I've seen how video games negatively affect people.

Lasereth · 12-10-2007, 08:43 AM

ADHD = parents don't want to control their brat so they give them sedatives and say he's ADHD.

Videogames frying your brain = doubtful. Is it a waste of time? Yeah, but so is watching TV, and many (if not most) Americans watch TV for hours a day.

As for younger boys being unmotivated, I have sorta noticed this trend, but I definitely can't explain it. I'm 24, just graduated college and am now making more than the average American. I won't stop until I'm rich. I will do any amount of work to be a wealthy, hard working member of this society. I play videogames a lot and am obsessed with computers. Certainly no correlation in my case.

Baraka_Guru · 12-10-2007, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I've personally always thought ADHD is mostly just boys being boys.

And I've seen how video games negatively affect people.

I've always thought ADHD was a combination of boys being boys and environmental conditioning (e.g. television and video games). We allow our children to condition their brains for short spurts of attention akin to that of a flea's. Deep concentration is rarely encouraged. In past ages, children were taught Latin, even though it was a dead language. There are children in high school today, and even university, who are barely literate. What's going on?

If you observe the typical child's daily pastimes today, it will be little wonder why they can't concentrate on something that doesn't have flashy lights, catchy music, or hyper-interactivity.

Reading? Writing? You can't be serious.

* * * * *

I will comment on this thread in more depth when I have the time.

Miss Mango · 12-10-2007, 06:25 PM

And so......why are women making less per dollar than men for doing the same work/effort/brainpower/etc.??

This stuff kills me.

Baraka_Guru · 12-10-2007, 08:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Mango

And so......why are women making less per dollar than men for doing the same work/effort/brainpower/etc.??

This stuff kills me.

Wait until the Baby Boomers retire, and the statistics will appear spring-loaded.

Ustwo · 12-10-2007, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Mango

And so......why are women making less per dollar than men for doing the same work/effort/brainpower/etc.??

This stuff kills me.

It just means there will be more secretaries per male executive.

Sorry you set yourself up for that one

Baraka is right though, the issue won't be for another 10 years or so, maybe even 20. When these guys should be hitting their prime in their late 30's and 40's, and even then it won't be a HUGE change, not ever male is going to fall into going through life fat drunk and stupid trap.

guy44 · 12-10-2007, 10:43 PM

I think this book, and the supposed "problem" it identifies, are both a bunch of bunk. Boys learn differently? There's no such thing as ADHD, or its dramatically over-diagnosed? Boys need to be outdoors, girls inside learning with books? Please. Not only is there no legitimate science backing any of these claims up, but these are all historical social norms undermined by changing attitudes towards (or new discoveries about) gender, sex, biology, psychology, psychiatry, and education. It's the ugly underside of our national id that that stresses physically active boys and nice little girls. This stuff was very popular a hundred years ago; Teddy Roosevelt's childhood/early adulthood, to use his example, was practically a case study of a sickly little kid trying to prove his manhood through vigorous outdoorsy activities - a true product of his times. There is no boy crisis in education, and the only real gender gap that truly appears is the one with a glass ceiling and seventy-five cents on the dollar.

P.S. There is a very strong correlation between the advancements women have made in American society, culture, and business, and the return of this "manly man" > overprotected/arrested development manchild creed.

roachboy · 12-11-2007, 11:20 AM

as an aside, i watched the deep sea epsiode of "blue planet" last night and found something kinda suspect about it...

the voice-over sets up you the viewer up as discovering new species while you sit on your sofa in your livingroom. so sitting on your sofa becomes this great adventure which enables you to encompass all the hidden dimensions of the world. sitting on your sofa enables you to withstand huge pressures. through your intrepid explorations from your sofa in your living room, your bravery, you, sitting on your sofa, you acquire a Heroic Destiny: you are the leading edge of human technological progress, you are the first human to see this or that amazingly beautiful multi-colored gelatinous blob----here is a new species, you are the camera, nothing can hide from you. you are a sardine swirling around in a vast cloud to hide from predators where no hiding is possible; you bounce off the surface of a concentrated salt lake a half mile beneath the surface of the gulf of mexico. and you do all this with curious electronic sounds unfolding the source of which is not obvious--are these foley effects, are they feeds from a microphone does it matter?

i enjoyed it...well, except for having grown tired of david attenborough's particular way of indicating breathless excitement and the writer's size-queen fixation (the largest, the smallest, the widest, the thinnest, the most dry, the most lint-filled, the most, the best, the rarest, the least rare, the heaviest, the lighest)...but it seems suspect.

i look out my window now and its a grey rainy chicago afternoon.
i think about blue planet.
3-d doesn't stand a chance.

so it goes in the land of the sovereign spectator.

================
that said, i dont buy much of anything that the reviewer chose to highlight from sax's book. his website is slightly more informative, once you get past the large amounts of publicity nonsense that outlines for you the enormity of expertise that is crammed into this book that you that's right you should scurry out right now and purchase.

he checks many of the consequences of that idiot "no child left behind" refashioning of public education into a vast test-prep industry, the choking off of funding at the expense of gym classes, recesses, art and music classes...which seem both ill-advised and to embody a fear of creativity and even of embodied activity in favor of the construction of the sovereign spectator-----get them early and often-----revenue streams will only be improved if kids understand themselves as powerless spectators relative to information early.

i am not sure that sax is pointing to anything beyond the shape of his own research and the inferences he makes based on that. nor do i understand how he makes causal claims---ultimately i suppose, the question really is whether you find the idea of such claims interesting enough to read the actual book.

but it's hard to figure out how we can have a real debate about this if none of is have read the book.

Ustwo · 12-11-2007, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44

Not only is there no legitimate science backing any of these claims up,.

Based on you saying this, I'm going to assume you know really nothing about the subject and are just stating a strong unfounded opinion on the matter.

Do you really want to stick by the notion that boys do not learn differently than girls at an early age? If so I will be happy to give you a strong scientific beat down, but before I do that I'd recommend you do a bit of research on your own.

Miss Mango · 12-11-2007, 02:40 PM

I never really saw video games as a cause, only a symptom. Lacking something more stimulating, one plays video games. Nothings wrong with games themselves, but I do believe that theres better, more nourishing ways to spend time. I say this as an avid gamer. Apparently with some guilt. heh.

But games arent the important part, to me.
The part that sticks out to me, first, is the discussion about whether or not boys learn better through different means of education.
Secondly, the concept, role, and potential of a male role-model... Are there trends in what boys learn with vs without that kind of teacher?
Third, the implications of mens future IF this articles prophesizing is on-the-mark. At worst, the male-slump would never stick; we would fix it. But it would still be an ugly slump and a very strange handful of decades.

Its hard to say whether or not I agree with anything else touched on in the article, but Ill tell ya this... On average, the guys I know are generally lazier than the girls I know. Of the people I know, I feel like I see girls striving to achieve their goals more-so than guys. Unfortunately, Im not keeping track, so all I can do is feel unsettled by my untrustworthy gut reaction.

cheetahtank2 · 12-11-2007, 03:18 PM

Well there are a couple of assumptions in that article and these responses one of them being who said girls dont play videogames i know quite a few that do maybe not as much as most of my friends that are guys but still some. Also video games themselves arent the cause of the negative effects its the time spent playing them instead of being productive and honestly of the people who dont play games which spend the time being productive? Plus while guys spend more time on games and things girls (this is a generalization) usually spend more time then guys on hygenic issues I know a few who wake up as much as 2 to 3 hours before they have to do anything to get ready couldnt this be used better? As for ADD and ADHD I believe personally that this is an excuse for other things but this isn't about that. As for motivation i suppose this is true but, its not just boys I believe the cause for this lack of motivation is partially due to the great rise in technology and having more things be done for us. For example we no longer wash clothes by hand or dishes really. All of these things instill less and less of the value of hard work. Kids think they can do just the minimum and throw the rest in the "machine" and let it do the work. Also the restrictments on child abuse which i am strictly against dont get me wron are a huge part of it part of the motivation used to be "do this so you dont get smacked" anyway thats how i feel on this whole issue although i doubt most will read my whole rant.

-Cheetahtank2

Willravel · 12-11-2007, 03:59 PM

It's interesting to hear from a dentist and a video card expert that ADHD isn't real, because it proves one cannot get a psychiatry degree from google.

You know who else thinks ADHD isn't real? Tom Cruise. Enjoy.

Ustwo · 12-11-2007, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

It's interesting to hear from a dentist and a video card expert that ADHD isn't real, because it proves one cannot get a psychiatry degree from google.

You know who else thinks ADHD isn't real? Tom Cruise. Enjoy.

I see, and its been interesting that someone with a bachelors in psychology thinks he understands the engineering of tall buildings under stress.

Quote:

(CNN) -- A recent study says attention deficit hyperactivity disorder, or ADHD, may be overdiagnosed, and the drug used to treat the condition may be overprescribed.

Nearly 6 percent of the school-age population in the United States has been diagnosed with ADHD, a condition characterized by impulsive behavior and difficulties in paying attention and keeping still.

Approximately 90 percent of patients with ADHD take the drug Ritalin.

Ritalin, or methylphenidate, is a mild central nervous system stimulant. It boosts the brain's ability to control impulsive behavior and helps children concentrate.

In recent years there have been reports of heavy Ritalin use in various communities around the country, but until this latest study it was only speculation.

Pediatric psychologist Gretchen LeFever became concerned when she was suddenly inundated with ADHD referrals. She worried that the disorder was being overdiagnosed and began a study of 30,000 grade-school students in two school districts in Virginia.

"What we found was that in our region of Virginia, the prevalence of children getting a dose of ADHD medication during the school day was two to three times the national estimate of the disorder," LeFever said.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9909/01/adhd.overdiagnosis/

That took about a half a second to google.

Secondly I never said it wasn't real, I said it was joke in most getting medication for it.

So girlfriend, please, don't get in a pissing contest with me when it comes to biology, I got a firehose.

guy44 · 12-11-2007, 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Based on you saying this, I'm going to assume you know really nothing about the subject and are just stating a strong unfounded opinion on the matter.

Do you really want to stick by the notion that boys do not learn differently than girls at an early age? If so I will be happy to give you a strong scientific beat down, but before I do that I'd recommend you do a bit of research on your own.

Actually, I think the problem here was that I was being unclear. What I wrote is:

Quote:

I think this book, and the supposed "problem" it identifies, are both a bunch of bunk. Boys learn differently? There's no such thing as ADHD, or its dramatically over-diagnosed? Boys need to be outdoors, girls inside learning with books? Please. Not only is there no legitimate science backing any of these claims up...

I didn't mean that there are no measured differences between the learning behaviors of young boys and girls. What I meant, exemplified by the rest of my post's focus on gender norms, is that deeply-seated society beliefs regarding "correct" learning styles for the two sexes is unrelated to actual empirical findings and instead based mostly on projection. Eg., boys should be rough-and-tumble outdoorsy types, girls should be in the classroom sitting quietly at their desk, etc. Thus any book or argument that begins its thesis with the claim that the two sexes learn differently before immediately segueing into discussions of the myth of ADHD and the epidemic of lazy, idle boys is almost always a descendant of antiquated notions of gender roles rather than a legitimate inquiry into the learning differences that do exist.

BTW, I happen to think that most of those learning differences are created, enforced, and solidified by social norms rather than inherent biological differences. Girls are observed to be more studious, less rowdy, and quieter in class than boys because our social norms from infant's toys to interpersonal behavior tell boys that they should be extroverts and girls the opposite.

EDIT - I agree with the above poster who mentioned that none of us have read this book. I don't claim to know what is in it, nor do I mean to give the impression that I'm giving a book review. I'm just going with the general topic...

jorgelito · 12-11-2007, 05:39 PM

Like Tom Cruise is the most credible source for..well, anything really.

Willravel · 12-11-2007, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I see, and its been interesting that someone with a bachelors in psychology thinks he understands the engineering of tall buildings under stress.

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9909/01/adhd.overdiagnosis/

That took about a half a second to google.

Secondly I never said it wasn't real, I said it was joke in most getting medication for it.

So girlfriend, please, don't get in a pissing contest with me when it comes to biology, I got a firehose.

Did you even read the article? Or was it just the title? According to the article, some kids are being given a prescription that's too large for their particular ADHD affliction. Like taking 3 aspirin instead of 1. It says nothing about the medication being a joke. Contrary to your extensive reading on the subject, ritalin is actually helping millions of people, and there's no conspiracy to cram it down anyone's throats.

waltert · 12-11-2007, 06:15 PM

does this all mean that the engineering men of the future will have a better chance at meeting ladies?

Tusko · 12-14-2007, 06:33 PM

let's all buy revlon and do our nails k?

Willravel · 12-14-2007, 06:44 PM

After reading the OP, I'm of the opinion that Christine, the author, may very well be simply having bad luck finding a man herself. I myself am living proof that her article is quite simply incorrect at most or a gross stereotype at least. I graduated from high school early, wen to college on my own dime where I received high marks in all subjects and graduated in 4 years, and I immediately used my connections to get a good job. I occasionally enjoy playing Star Wars Battlefront on my PlayStation 2. I'm taking a few classes now and plan to go back to school to get my masters in political science so that I can become an attorney (business work is starting to bore me). I'm dripping with motivation, but not only that, most of the men I know are also dripping with motivation. One friend is already rising through the ranks quickly at a national bank and another has a very successful web company selling auto parts at the age of 23.

If you're so lazy that you think you need Mario or a school teacher to motivate you, you're probably already SOL in life because unmotivated people are boring and are rarely successful at what they attempt, if they ever get around to attempting it. Self motivation really is the only good motivation, and the author would go a long way by learning that.

Plan9 · 12-14-2007, 07:14 PM

Men like things with buttons, levers, and boobs.

That isn't ADHD, that's biology in action.

Shauk · 12-14-2007, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Men like things with buttons, levers, and boobs.

That isn't ADHD, that's biology in action.

truth.

samurai_x44 · 12-23-2007, 09:15 AM

I think the author is taking issues that affect us as a society and showing only the way it directly affects males. Does she mention other drugs females are being prescribed or taking that changes their behavior (I'm looking at you period removing drug). Doesn't she think maybe our education system altogether isn't very good but that women and men are affected differently by this? Why doesn't she mention that while a lot of men play video game this usually replaces normal tv watching time that both males and females have? Why doesn't she say females also have horrible role models such as Paris Hilton? And how does she reach the conclusion that the male species is getting destroyed by these issues?

ngdawg · 12-23-2007, 09:59 AM

So, what was boys' excuse before video games?
Like Ustwo, I was a bad student, given to bouts of daydreaming, wandering off(figuratively and literally-I'd walk out of class, signing myself out on the bathroom chart). Imagine the surprise of several teachers and the principal when my IQ test revealed a higher than average score....yea, girls do it all too. But I could write stories like no one's business from first grade on.

I had to take my son to counselling after an altercation in 4th grade in which he beat another kid over the head with his lunchbag-this after months of bullying.
An ADD "test" was given and Daniel matched all ten markers. Ritalin was suggested at almost every session and I said "No drugs. He has to learn behaviors, not mask them." I have friends whose boys were put on that crap and, according to protocol, taken off it at 18 and they became violent, unable to control urges and landed in jail.

We have become a nation of blame. It's video games, it's tv, it's green grass, whatever....whatever happen to consequence? Discipline? Learning how to get on in this world, whether being taught only by the parents(whom I blame for most of this angst) or seeking outside help like I did?

Your son's not living up to his potential? So drug him? How about giving him the tools to foster his talents? Allowing some choice so he learns what happens when he makes the wrong one? Talking to the kid?

Yea, I'm so out of touch with the "real" problem....

I won't even glance at books and articles such as these because they're bullshit. They blame everything but what should be blamed. Parents that are afraid of parenting.

Miss Mango · 12-25-2007, 02:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ngdawg

So, what was boys excuse before video games?

Presumably, boys didnt need an excuse before video games; Men had the majority of diplomas, degrees, advancements, and all the important jobs. Of course this was prior to the enablement of women to compete, so then again, there was no way to draw a comparison previously.

On a side note, I really dont feel like this particular reviewer is focusing on video games as a cause (And Ill bet Sax wasnt either). It seems to me like its just a symptom of lessened engagement on real-world matters.

So if parenting being a major flaw if a kid is under-achieving, so heres a tough question: What, specifically, are people doing wrong in their parenting?

Or is this entire subject a red herring? Are boys doing just fine, and there is, in fact, NOT a widening gap in the ratio of male-to-female scholastic achievement?

jewels · 12-25-2007, 05:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Mango

So if parenting being a major flaw if a kid is under-achieving, so heres a tough question: What, specifically, are people doing wrong in their parenting?

As far as parenting goes, my theory is that many parents are inconsistent (as a couple or solo) with discipline, don't require chores or teach responsibility (i.e. I can't tell you how many times I've heard another parent tell me that their Johnny absolutely refuses to do the dishes

), have had expensive gadgets and toys thrown at them no matter what the cost. They're often spoiled and have never been taught any kind of work ethic.

I don't think parenting is the only factor here, though. Combine it with growing up with MTV and advertising stylized after it -- those images flash way too fast, they're almost like that ringtone the kids can hear but the adults can't. It comes down to short attention span and parents' low expectations. In a nutshell, that's how I see it.

Zeraph · 12-25-2007, 08:59 PM

Not at all true in my case, at least. I've been into video games nearly my whole life and I've always been a very high achiever.

Plan9 · 12-25-2007, 09:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeraph

Not at all true in my case, at least. I've been into video games nearly my whole life and I've always been a very high achiever.

Academically or socially?

thingstodo · 12-26-2007, 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=Lasereth]ADHD = parents don't want to control their brat so they give them sedatives and say he's ADHD.

QUOTE]
It's not a one size fits all world.

My 2nd-grader was finally diagnosed with ADD in 1984, long before it was popular. His teachers said he would grow out of it. He didn't. Unfortunately, medication didn't work, either. Therapy helped some, mainly for us his parents. The biggest thing was the relief of developing an understanding of what was going on. So we thought.

Now, I'm sure some parents want to medicate their kids because they can't control them. Odd, though, that an amphetamine can control a hyperactive kid, isn't it. I mean, isn't that a contradiction of the kid was normal? But I stray from my tale.

Flash forward to today. Our 30-year old is bi-polar. Unfortunately, many kids during at least the 80s were diagnosed with ADD when there was someother mental illness developing. Had he been disagnosed correctly back then he may have been better off today. We'll never know. Instead, drugs came into the picture and you know how those stories go.

Back to my original comment: be careful how you judge because it's not a one size fits all world.

Merlocke · 01-11-2008, 01:39 AM

Nothing wrong with video games, or ADD (or ADHD whichever you want to call it) I have both and grew up to be an investment banker who makes lots of money, provides for his family and is still obsessed with video games.

ASU2003 · 01-13-2008, 11:53 AM

She fails to realize the impact of the persuit of sex for boys is once they get to Junior High. An interesting survey would be, you can be an A student, but not have sex because you are too busy with school work. Or you can be a C-D student that has free time to socialize and sleep with a few girls. Which one would you choose?

high_jinx · 01-17-2008, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Kaman recalls frustrations of childhood
Gus Ruelas / Associated Press
"I'm using my resources as much as I can to try and help people," Clippers center Chris Kaman said of dealing with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. "I was trying to see if it worked first. I'm on a platform being in the NBA where I can help people."
The Clippers' center started taking medication at 21/2 years old for attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder. He found out in July the diagnosis was wrong. 'I can't take back time. I wish I could.'
By Jonathan Abrams, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
January 15, 2008
Pamela Kaman can recount all the times she struggled with her son, Clippers center Chris Kaman, to get him to take his medication while he was growing up.

It was a hassle. Chris Kaman was an intelligent, but rambunctious, youth.

"There was constant uproar with him," Pamela Kaman said. "You couldn't do normal things. You couldn't go to the movies as a family. It would always turn into a big thing."

Chris Kaman was diagnosed with attention-deficit hyperactivity disorder at 2 1/2 and began taking Ritalin and Adderall soon after and through high school.

Kaman, who had trouble remembering plays and concentrating on the court in college and in the pros, disclosed Sunday that he was misdiagnosed.

Kaman actually had an anxiety disorder that caused him to over-analyze situations and scenarios.

"Growing up, I had to take the medication my whole life," said Kaman, who said he grew so frustrated taking the medication that he would come home from school and cry.

"I can't take back time. I wish I could. But I can't. It really bothered me to take the medication every day. I felt I had to take the medication to make me feel like a regular person. It was kind of backward."

His misdiagnosis was discovered in July by Hope139, a 5-year old organization based in Grandville, Mich., that studies the brain. According to the National Institute of Mental Health, between 3% and 5% of children have ADHD, with symptoms that include hyperactivity and impulsiveness.

According to Hope139's research of about 40,000 patients, up to 15% of those on medicine for hyperactivity do not have the affliction.

The medication Kaman took had the opposite effect on him, said Dr. Tim Royer, the organization's chief executive.

Kaman's brain was already working in overdrive, and the medication provided an added stimulus. The dosage was increased to the point that Kaman's mind became overloaded and he became less animated. "He stopped being a behavioral problem, but he got too much medicine and it shut him down," Royer said.

Kaman stopped taking medication once he entered college at Central Michigan because he no longer had to sit in one place for more than a couple of hours.

But his concentration in college, and once he signed with the Clippers, was still lacking. He could focus on the man he was guarding but not on weak-side defense, or as Royer put it, "He could see the tree in front of him, but not the forest."

Said Kaman: "I would come out of a huddle that [Coach] Mike [Dunleavy] just drew [of] two plays and I would literally forget both those plays in a matter of 10 seconds or less."

After discovering the misdiagnosis, Kaman started working with Royer on a system called "neurofeedback," a method of reading brain wave activity to reinforce calm thoughts.

Kaman sits in front of a computer and if his brain waves are at a desired level, the screen will show it. If not, Kaman attempts to calm his thought process. During the off-season, he also worked with a wireless device that allowed him to measure his brain waves while on the court.

"It's a very fast-paced game, and for me to be able to slow it down in my head, it really has been a lot easier and a lot less stressful in the games," Kaman said.

His mind still works fast, the words spilling so quickly out of Kaman's mouth that reporters afterward will argue where one sentence ends and the next begins. His improvement on the court, however, has been drastic, with Kaman showing an uptick in all aspects of his game. It is a combination of getting more touches to make up for the absence of an injured Elton Brand, better conditioning and his mental training.

"He's a pretty bright guy," Dunleavy said. "When you go through your play sets and that becomes tedious, that's when you notice a difference in him drifting or not drifting. That's when you can tell at certain things he is much better. He doesn't make a lot of mental mistakes."

Kaman is hoping to become a spokesman for children who are misdiagnosed or are simply looking for another alternative instead of taking medication for hyperactivity. "I'm using my resources as much as I can to try and help people," he said. "I was trying to see if it worked first. I'm on a platform being in the NBA where I can help people."

this is from the la times the other day. unless you get into severe chemical disorder situations or to the point where it keeps you from being physically dangerous to yourself or others, i just can't stand the idea of medicating your personality. somewhere along the line we forgot how important self-control and discipline was, and now we're constantly looking for crutches for it.

it seems to me that people villify owning up to their mistakes and/or apologizing for them, and as a result, it's extremely difficult for people to do it. they miss out on the benefits of internalizing these lessons learned and the therapeutic rewards of forgiving yourself after you've made a mistake, and this results in even more stubborn denial. it's an awful cycle.

xepherys · 01-17-2008, 10:31 PM

Hmmm... this is interesting.

First of all, ADHD, at least at the symptomatic level, does indeed exist. I know! The symptoms of it basically equate to an overactive/restless mind. It is very difficult for me to concentrate on tasks, and the less interested I am in them, the more difficult it is. I mean difficult as in the following scenario, which plays itself in classrooms from the time I was 14 until right now:

1. Go into class and sit down
2. Teaching begins
3. I begin to get distracted with other thoughts, though I'm fighting to concentrate on the task at hand
4. I begin to fidget
5. I suddenly (VERY suddenly) become extremely tired
6. I spend the rest of the classtime time using every ounce of willpower I have to stay awake

It's not a discipline or willpower issue. This even happens (though to a lesser degree) in classes that I am 100% interested in.

Regardless of this, I had a miserable time in high school. Actually, it sounded a lot like Ustwo's public schools experience. My folks couldn't send me to private school and didn't have the education to teach me much at home. I found that by 7th grade I knew subject matter better than MOST of my teachers, and by high school the AP/Honors content I was learning was at a level I had already learned. I dropped out of high school my senior year, got my GED and went to a VERY good engineering school. The kicker? My GED and ACT scores were high enough that not only did I not have to go through the "mandatory" probation time at OU as a GED-bearer, I didn't even have the "mandatory" freshman probation before being allowed to enter the School of Engineering. I was admitted my first semester.

I am socially well adjusted. I have a lot of friends that are all pretty different (I'm often the 'link' between disparate groups of friends). Sure, some are geeks, but many are not. I am married to a wonderful woman. I have two great sons. I have a good job. I can work with people very well. I can outsmart them if I need to, but generally can adjust to talk on anyone's level, low or high, based on the person I am addressing. *shrug*

So, back to the OP. Are young men less motivated? Yes. But I see it as a primarily American cultural issue. American culture breeds laziness and ineptitude, from vastly overused social programs to vastly underfunded education and extracurricular programs. Hey, you want to be a fat sack of shit with 20 kids and a meth problem? Here's some free money to live on. Hey, you're a brilliant student and an amazing musician? Well fuck off... we can't afford good teachers and your school doesn't have a music program anymore! Gee, I can't imagine where the problem lies. As for the sudden increase in females being marketable. Well, that's still backlash from suffrage and ERA-era buildup. Women can NOW do things that men have been allowed to do forever. They're taking advantage of it. Good for them!

My wife will have her degree before me, despite being 6 years younger. I still make better money than she likely would after she gets it. I also sit on my ass at a desk job all day, and when she is finished with school she'll be chasing kids on the playground at school. *shrug* Sometimes it's a matter of aptitude for different things. There are more geek guys than girls, or more specifically in the geek category that tends to be a money maker (IT). My wife is a band geek. It's hard for a band geek to make good money. I'm a computer geek. It's easy for a computer geek with no degree to make GREAT money. It's a subculture thing at that level.

I know this is sort of a jumbled rant. Hope you all followed. Let me leave you with another thought. Why do I believe this is American? look at other countries, western and otherwise. Take Japan for instance. Fast food is hitting HUGE over there, and video gaming is as big or bigger than in the States. However, they have more discipline, better education (with much MUCH more emphasis on education) and culturally kick our asses in such regards. It's not young men, it's under-challenged, over-pampered, lazy American young men. :-|

Ustwo · 01-17-2008, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xepherys

Hmmm... this is interesting.

First of all, ADHD, at least at the symptomatic level, does indeed exist. I know! The symptoms of it basically equate to an overactive/restless mind. It is very difficult for me to concentrate on tasks, and the less interested I am in them, the more difficult it is. I mean difficult as in the following scenario, which plays itself in classrooms from the time I was 14 until right now:

My belief on this is that while the symptoms are real its not a 'disorder'. Its pretty typical for males and based on the very large percentage, all most all male, with this 'disorder' either we as a species are totally fucked up or some people are a bit trigger happy in deciding whats an illness.

I manged to get a couple of advanced degrees with this 'disorder' and never took a drug for it.

12-10-2007, 01:50 AM	#2 (permalink)
walkdontwalk Upright Location: Cape Town, South Africa	Interesting... I played loads of games growing up, and I often feel as though my life would be more complete if there way an army of undead for me to slay Always just thought it was because I'm not a typical Type-A personality... __________________ Sigs are overrated...

12-10-2007, 02:16 AM	#3 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Heh, I was obsessed with video games growing up, all the way through my early teens. I probably would benefit from being on ADHD medication, given my propensity to need constantly-changing stimuli every few minutes. And I completely lack motivation in school or a career (all academic drive left me when I started college). I must be a teenage male!!!!! Oh wait, I'm a 28 year old female. I did, however, grow up on a lot of land, so when I wasn't blistering my fingers on the Nintendo (literally--I often had Band-Aids on my thumbs, to keep playing), I was outside climbing trees and building forts. I think that's one of the few things that kept me somewhat sane as a kid... being grounded to tangible activities in the outdoors. I don't think that's a gender thing, really. Every kid, male or female, would benefit from spending as much of their free time as possible in a safe, huge outdoor area with lots of stuff to explore. The second they start getting addicted to video games or TV, they should be hung using thumbscrews in a doorway. At least, I wish someone had done that to me. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

12-10-2007, 03:09 AM	#4 (permalink)
n0nsensical Junkie Location: San Francisco	Maybe there's more to life than "real-world success" and "real-world achievement", which as far as I can tell are just code words for making lots of money. So if we enjoy "sitting around eating ice cream and watching TV with the kids", what is the big fucking problem? What exactly are we supposed to be doing, going out and killing something? Getting rich so we can consume even more than your average oversize American lifestyle? This is the same hobby horse ridden by anti-drug crusaders. Personally I think this obsession with success is their problem, not ours. I, for one, welcome our college-educated female overlords. __________________ "Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln Last edited by n0nsensical; 12-10-2007 at 03:52 AM..

12-10-2007, 06:47 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	She's correct on all counts. The education system is biased against boys, ADHD is a joke in most of the people getting the medication, and videogames do waste a ton of your potential. Luckily for my son I've known this and I will have the means to send him to a private school as well as teach him on his own. My parents did this for me because the public school couldn't handle me, and I see the same signs in my son. They spent hours with me on homework and discipline, first to undo the damage of my first 4 school years in a public school, then to focus me and motivate me to what seemed boring and pointless. For example at age 8 I was in the bottom of my class (having convinced my teachers I wasn't able to do it) yet going to the library almost day to learn about spiders and insects at a level most people wouldn't see unless they went into invertebrate biology, on my own. My parents were unaware of this as well and it took an IQ test where they were looking for learning disabilities to discover that I didn't have a learning disability, I was just bored. I was a bit of an extreme, but boys simply learn differently then girls, but the schools are not designed for this, mostly because for years we had well meaning idiots try to tell us that it was just society that made men different from women as well as the fact its EASIER to teach girls. Girls can learn from textbooks much sooner than boys, while boys are very hands on. Which is easier for a lazy public school union teacher to teach? __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-10-2007, 08:02 AM	#7 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Hey look! More biased, UNRESEARCHED opinion about how great women are and how bad men are. I haven't seen this before. It's funny that I don't see any citation from research, only "Sax writes" and 'Sax believes'. I wonder why? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

12-10-2007, 07:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
Unicase Upright	Well it tend to be true that girls tend to be more academic than boys although I'm sure that games doesn't actually fry people brains. Although it's more to the fact that some teachers are seriously bad at teaching or we guys just don't want to learn what they are forcing us to learn. But then again, this is matter of opinion.

12-10-2007, 08:43 AM	#9 (permalink)
Lasereth Knight of the Old Republic Location: Winston-Salem, NC	ADHD = parents don't want to control their brat so they give them sedatives and say he's ADHD. Videogames frying your brain = doubtful. Is it a waste of time? Yeah, but so is watching TV, and many (if not most) Americans watch TV for hours a day. As for younger boys being unmotivated, I have sorta noticed this trend, but I definitely can't explain it. I'm 24, just graduated college and am now making more than the average American. I won't stop until I'm rich. I will do any amount of work to be a wealthy, hard working member of this society. I play videogames a lot and am obsessed with computers. Certainly no correlation in my case.

12-10-2007, 06:25 PM	#11 (permalink)
Miss Mango Psycho	And so......why are women making less per dollar than men for doing the same work/effort/brainpower/etc.?? This stuff kills me.

12-10-2007, 10:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
guy44 Somnabulist Location: corner of No and Where	I think this book, and the supposed "problem" it identifies, are both a bunch of bunk. Boys learn differently? There's no such thing as ADHD, or its dramatically over-diagnosed? Boys need to be outdoors, girls inside learning with books? Please. Not only is there no legitimate science backing any of these claims up, but these are all historical social norms undermined by changing attitudes towards (or new discoveries about) gender, sex, biology, psychology, psychiatry, and education. It's the ugly underside of our national id that that stresses physically active boys and nice little girls. This stuff was very popular a hundred years ago; Teddy Roosevelt's childhood/early adulthood, to use his example, was practically a case study of a sickly little kid trying to prove his manhood through vigorous outdoorsy activities - a true product of his times. There is no boy crisis in education, and the only real gender gap that truly appears is the one with a glass ceiling and seventy-five cents on the dollar. P.S. There is a very strong correlation between the advancements women have made in American society, culture, and business, and the return of this "manly man" > overprotected/arrested development manchild creed. __________________ "You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

12-11-2007, 11:20 AM	#15 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	as an aside, i watched the deep sea epsiode of "blue planet" last night and found something kinda suspect about it... the voice-over sets up you the viewer up as discovering new species while you sit on your sofa in your livingroom. so sitting on your sofa becomes this great adventure which enables you to encompass all the hidden dimensions of the world. sitting on your sofa enables you to withstand huge pressures. through your intrepid explorations from your sofa in your living room, your bravery, you, sitting on your sofa, you acquire a Heroic Destiny: you are the leading edge of human technological progress, you are the first human to see this or that amazingly beautiful multi-colored gelatinous blob----here is a new species, you are the camera, nothing can hide from you. you are a sardine swirling around in a vast cloud to hide from predators where no hiding is possible; you bounce off the surface of a concentrated salt lake a half mile beneath the surface of the gulf of mexico. and you do all this with curious electronic sounds unfolding the source of which is not obvious--are these foley effects, are they feeds from a microphone does it matter? i enjoyed it...well, except for having grown tired of david attenborough's particular way of indicating breathless excitement and the writer's size-queen fixation (the largest, the smallest, the widest, the thinnest, the most dry, the most lint-filled, the most, the best, the rarest, the least rare, the heaviest, the lighest)...but it seems suspect. i look out my window now and its a grey rainy chicago afternoon. i think about blue planet. 3-d doesn't stand a chance. so it goes in the land of the sovereign spectator. ================ that said, i dont buy much of anything that the reviewer chose to highlight from sax's book. his website is slightly more informative, once you get past the large amounts of publicity nonsense that outlines for you the enormity of expertise that is crammed into this book that you that's right you should scurry out right now and purchase. he checks many of the consequences of that idiot "no child left behind" refashioning of public education into a vast test-prep industry, the choking off of funding at the expense of gym classes, recesses, art and music classes...which seem both ill-advised and to embody a fear of creativity and even of embodied activity in favor of the construction of the sovereign spectator-----get them early and often-----revenue streams will only be improved if kids understand themselves as powerless spectators relative to information early. i am not sure that sax is pointing to anything beyond the shape of his own research and the inferences he makes based on that. nor do i understand how he makes causal claims---ultimately i suppose, the question really is whether you find the idea of such claims interesting enough to read the actual book. but it's hard to figure out how we can have a real debate about this if none of is have read the book. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 12-11-2007 at 11:23 AM..

12-11-2007, 02:40 PM	#17 (permalink)
Miss Mango Psycho	I never really saw video games as a cause, only a symptom. Lacking something more stimulating, one plays video games. Nothings wrong with games themselves, but I do believe that theres better, more nourishing ways to spend time. I say this as an avid gamer. Apparently with some guilt. heh. But games arent the important part, to me. The part that sticks out to me, first, is the discussion about whether or not boys learn better through different means of education. Secondly, the concept, role, and potential of a male role-model... Are there trends in what boys learn with vs without that kind of teacher? Third, the implications of mens future IF this articles prophesizing is on-the-mark. At worst, the male-slump would never stick; we would fix it. But it would still be an ugly slump and a very strange handful of decades. Its hard to say whether or not I agree with anything else touched on in the article, but Ill tell ya this... On average, the guys I know are generally lazier than the girls I know. Of the people I know, I feel like I see girls striving to achieve their goals more-so than guys. Unfortunately, Im not keeping track, so all I can do is feel unsettled by my untrustworthy gut reaction.

12-11-2007, 03:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
cheetahtank2 Upright Location: Everett, WA	Well there are a couple of assumptions in that article and these responses one of them being who said girls dont play videogames i know quite a few that do maybe not as much as most of my friends that are guys but still some. Also video games themselves arent the cause of the negative effects its the time spent playing them instead of being productive and honestly of the people who dont play games which spend the time being productive? Plus while guys spend more time on games and things girls (this is a generalization) usually spend more time then guys on hygenic issues I know a few who wake up as much as 2 to 3 hours before they have to do anything to get ready couldnt this be used better? As for ADD and ADHD I believe personally that this is an excuse for other things but this isn't about that. As for motivation i suppose this is true but, its not just boys I believe the cause for this lack of motivation is partially due to the great rise in technology and having more things be done for us. For example we no longer wash clothes by hand or dishes really. All of these things instill less and less of the value of hard work. Kids think they can do just the minimum and throw the rest in the "machine" and let it do the work. Also the restrictments on child abuse which i am strictly against dont get me wron are a huge part of it part of the motivation used to be "do this so you dont get smacked" anyway thats how i feel on this whole issue although i doubt most will read my whole rant. -Cheetahtank2

12-11-2007, 03:59 PM	#19 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's interesting to hear from a dentist and a video card expert that ADHD isn't real, because it proves one cannot get a psychiatry degree from google. You know who else thinks ADHD isn't real? Tom Cruise. Enjoy.

12-11-2007, 05:39 PM	#22 (permalink)
jorgelito All important elusive independent swing voter... Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia	Like Tom Cruise is the most credible source for..well, anything really.

12-11-2007, 06:15 PM	#24 (permalink)
waltert Insane	does this all mean that the engineering men of the future will have a better chance at meeting ladies?

12-14-2007, 06:33 PM	#25 (permalink)
Tusko Psycho	let's all buy revlon and do our nails k?

12-14-2007, 06:44 PM	#26 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	After reading the OP, I'm of the opinion that Christine, the author, may very well be simply having bad luck finding a man herself. I myself am living proof that her article is quite simply incorrect at most or a gross stereotype at least. I graduated from high school early, wen to college on my own dime where I received high marks in all subjects and graduated in 4 years, and I immediately used my connections to get a good job. I occasionally enjoy playing Star Wars Battlefront on my PlayStation 2. I'm taking a few classes now and plan to go back to school to get my masters in political science so that I can become an attorney (business work is starting to bore me). I'm dripping with motivation, but not only that, most of the men I know are also dripping with motivation. One friend is already rising through the ranks quickly at a national bank and another has a very successful web company selling auto parts at the age of 23. If you're so lazy that you think you need Mario or a school teacher to motivate you, you're probably already SOL in life because unmotivated people are boring and are rarely successful at what they attempt, if they ever get around to attempting it. Self motivation really is the only good motivation, and the author would go a long way by learning that. Last edited by Willravel; 12-23-2007 at 09:17 AM.. Reason: removed multiple "but not only that"s

12-14-2007, 07:14 PM	#27 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Men like things with buttons, levers, and boobs. That isn't ADHD, that's biology in action. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

12-23-2007, 09:15 AM	#29 (permalink)
samurai_x44 Upright Location: Montreal	I think the author is taking issues that affect us as a society and showing only the way it directly affects males. Does she mention other drugs females are being prescribed or taking that changes their behavior (I'm looking at you period removing drug). Doesn't she think maybe our education system altogether isn't very good but that women and men are affected differently by this? Why doesn't she mention that while a lot of men play video game this usually replaces normal tv watching time that both males and females have? Why doesn't she say females also have horrible role models such as Paris Hilton? And how does she reach the conclusion that the male species is getting destroyed by these issues? __________________ everything will be OK in the end. if it's not OK, it's not the end. unknown Last edited by samurai_x44; 12-23-2007 at 09:21 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

12-23-2007, 09:59 AM	#30 (permalink)
ngdawg peekaboo Location: on the back, bitch	So, what was boys' excuse before video games? Like Ustwo, I was a bad student, given to bouts of daydreaming, wandering off(figuratively and literally-I'd walk out of class, signing myself out on the bathroom chart). Imagine the surprise of several teachers and the principal when my IQ test revealed a higher than average score....yea, girls do it all too. But I could write stories like no one's business from first grade on. I had to take my son to counselling after an altercation in 4th grade in which he beat another kid over the head with his lunchbag-this after months of bullying. An ADD "test" was given and Daniel matched all ten markers. Ritalin was suggested at almost every session and I said "No drugs. He has to learn behaviors, not mask them." I have friends whose boys were put on that crap and, according to protocol, taken off it at 18 and they became violent, unable to control urges and landed in jail. We have become a nation of blame. It's video games, it's tv, it's green grass, whatever....whatever happen to consequence? Discipline? Learning how to get on in this world, whether being taught only by the parents(whom I blame for most of this angst) or seeking outside help like I did? Your son's not living up to his potential? So drug him? How about giving him the tools to foster his talents? Allowing some choice so he learns what happens when he makes the wrong one? Talking to the kid? Yea, I'm so out of touch with the "real" problem.... I won't even glance at books and articles such as these because they're bullshit. They blame everything but what should be blamed. Parents that are afraid of parenting.

12-25-2007, 08:59 PM	#33 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	Not at all true in my case, at least. I've been into video games nearly my whole life and I've always been a very high achiever.

12-26-2007, 05:38 AM	#35 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	[QUOTE=Lasereth]ADHD = parents don't want to control their brat so they give them sedatives and say he's ADHD. QUOTE] It's not a one size fits all world. My 2nd-grader was finally diagnosed with ADD in 1984, long before it was popular. His teachers said he would grow out of it. He didn't. Unfortunately, medication didn't work, either. Therapy helped some, mainly for us his parents. The biggest thing was the relief of developing an understanding of what was going on. So we thought. Now, I'm sure some parents want to medicate their kids because they can't control them. Odd, though, that an amphetamine can control a hyperactive kid, isn't it. I mean, isn't that a contradiction of the kid was normal? But I stray from my tale. Flash forward to today. Our 30-year old is bi-polar. Unfortunately, many kids during at least the 80s were diagnosed with ADD when there was someother mental illness developing. Had he been disagnosed correctly back then he may have been better off today. We'll never know. Instead, drugs came into the picture and you know how those stories go. Back to my original comment: be careful how you judge because it's not a one size fits all world. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy.

01-11-2008, 01:39 AM	#36 (permalink)
Merlocke Location: Canada	Nothing wrong with video games, or ADD (or ADHD whichever you want to call it) I have both and grew up to be an investment banker who makes lots of money, provides for his family and is still obsessed with video games. __________________ -=[ Merlocke ]=-

01-13-2008, 11:53 AM	#37 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	She fails to realize the impact of the persuit of sex for boys is once they get to Junior High. An interesting survey would be, you can be an A student, but not have sex because you are too busy with school work. Or you can be a C-D student that has free time to socialize and sleep with a few girls. Which one would you choose?

01-17-2008, 10:31 PM	#39 (permalink)
xepherys <3 TFP Location: 17TLH2445607250	Hmmm... this is interesting. First of all, ADHD, at least at the symptomatic level, does indeed exist. I know! The symptoms of it basically equate to an overactive/restless mind. It is very difficult for me to concentrate on tasks, and the less interested I am in them, the more difficult it is. I mean difficult as in the following scenario, which plays itself in classrooms from the time I was 14 until right now: 1. Go into class and sit down 2. Teaching begins 3. I begin to get distracted with other thoughts, though I'm fighting to concentrate on the task at hand 4. I begin to fidget 5. I suddenly (VERY suddenly) become extremely tired 6. I spend the rest of the classtime time using every ounce of willpower I have to stay awake It's not a discipline or willpower issue. This even happens (though to a lesser degree) in classes that I am 100% interested in. Regardless of this, I had a miserable time in high school. Actually, it sounded a lot like Ustwo's public schools experience. My folks couldn't send me to private school and didn't have the education to teach me much at home. I found that by 7th grade I knew subject matter better than MOST of my teachers, and by high school the AP/Honors content I was learning was at a level I had already learned. I dropped out of high school my senior year, got my GED and went to a VERY good engineering school. The kicker? My GED and ACT scores were high enough that not only did I not have to go through the "mandatory" probation time at OU as a GED-bearer, I didn't even have the "mandatory" freshman probation before being allowed to enter the School of Engineering. I was admitted my first semester. I am socially well adjusted. I have a lot of friends that are all pretty different (I'm often the 'link' between disparate groups of friends). Sure, some are geeks, but many are not. I am married to a wonderful woman. I have two great sons. I have a good job. I can work with people very well. I can outsmart them if I need to, but generally can adjust to talk on anyone's level, low or high, based on the person I am addressing. shrug So, back to the OP. Are young men less motivated? Yes. But I see it as a primarily American cultural issue. American culture breeds laziness and ineptitude, from vastly overused social programs to vastly underfunded education and extracurricular programs. Hey, you want to be a fat sack of shit with 20 kids and a meth problem? Here's some free money to live on. Hey, you're a brilliant student and an amazing musician? Well fuck off... we can't afford good teachers and your school doesn't have a music program anymore! Gee, I can't imagine where the problem lies. As for the sudden increase in females being marketable. Well, that's still backlash from suffrage and ERA-era buildup. Women can NOW do things that men have been allowed to do forever. They're taking advantage of it. Good for them! My wife will have her degree before me, despite being 6 years younger. I still make better money than she likely would after she gets it. I also sit on my ass at a desk job all day, and when she is finished with school she'll be chasing kids on the playground at school. shrug Sometimes it's a matter of aptitude for different things. There are more geek guys than girls, or more specifically in the geek category that tends to be a money maker (IT). My wife is a band geek. It's hard for a band geek to make good money. I'm a computer geek. It's easy for a computer geek with no degree to make GREAT money. It's a subculture thing at that level. I know this is sort of a jumbled rant. Hope you all followed. Let me leave you with another thought. Why do I believe this is American? look at other countries, western and otherwise. Take Japan for instance. Fast food is hitting HUGE over there, and video gaming is as big or bigger than in the States. However, they have more discipline, better education (with much MUCH more emphasis on education) and culturally kick our asses in such regards. It's not young men, it's under-challenged, over-pampered, lazy American young men. :-\| __________________ The prospect of achieving a peace agreement with the extremist group of MILF is almost impossible... -- Emmanuel Pinol, Governor of Cotobato My Homepage