kurty[B]

My boy is coming up on his 2 months immunizations, and his mother seems to think there is no reason for him to get immunizations. Her excuses range from her beliefs (she claims to be buddhist, but only when it's to her advantage), to he could get sick from them, or she doesn't want to emotionally scar him from getting shots. I have no recollection of getting shots as an infant, only as a four year old, and I remember crying histerically then (more out of fear of the needles then pain), and it was nothing a sucker and a huge hug didn't resolve. I think aside from beliefs she is simply following a friend of hers who has her kids get only one shot at a time, in so doing she visits the doctor many more times, and all her kids are behind on their shots (given, both of these are Medicaid cases and doctor's visits are cheap for them, but of course end up as a burden on you and I in tax dollars).

So, does anyone have any resourceful medical links, and logical reasoning that might convince sheer willpower in this case that immunizations are not an awful thing that will cause autism in your child.

I will be looking up state laws on shots required for public education (I don't want my child to have to wait to go to school because his mom only takes him to get shots one at a time; if that's the case I might be the "evil" dad who takes my kid to the doctor to get his shots, and I'll deal with the screams of "I don't want to go to daddy's he makes me go to the doctor, and doesn't believe in holistic medicine!"). The only other argument that has seemed to bend her ear is the fact I plan to travel to Uruguay, Brazil, Europe, and so on with him at some point in his life, and want to make sure he meets the immunization requirements for traveling to foreign regions.

Her reasoning for not getting the shots also includes "when is he going to run into these things, and get sick from them".

My argument comes from someone who has traveled outside of the country and believes in modern medicine (some of the shots I think are a little frivolous, but the majority I would like to have taken care of). Her argument comes from someone who has left the state of Colorado two or three times in her life.

So, let's make this a debate. If you are for immunizations I will try and argue her case against yours, and if you are against immunizations I will argue my case.

The shots I'm looking for specific medical information on right now are.

Hep B
DTaP/Tdap
Hib
Polio
PCV
Rota

Shots for a year from now I am also interested in

MMR
Varicella
Hep A

and what is MCV4?

I don't want this to turn into an argument of what horrible parents her or I or her and I are, I just want to educate myself more thoroughly so my arguments aren't simply, well I got all my shots, I don't remember my infant shots, and I even got nine shots in a row before being sent to Iraq (lost my immunization records), and I turned out fine.

Is there reasoning behind doing one shot at a time, or is that simply a wife's tale? I know when I received nine shots at once my white blood cell count jumped that evening, and I sported a fever for the night, but was fine the next day aside from two very soar arms.

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*Nikki*

My daughter is 11 months. I went through the same thoughts you did before she had her shots. I talked to the Dr. about some of my concerns and the ONLY vaccine I decided against was the Rotovirus. In my opinion that vaccine has not been around long enough for me to be totally ok with giving it to my child. I declined it every visit and they had no problems with not giving it. That being said, my child is not in daycare, a place that she would potentially catch that virus so I felt safer not giving it for that reason also.

As far as Autism goes, there is no know proof that vaccines are related. There is some speculation about a preservative used in some vaccines though. They are now saying that Autism could be more linked with the age of the child's father. Who knows though??

I say go with the vaccines. I did, my child has had no problems and I feel safer knowing she is protected from at least some diseases.

jewels

I'm with Nikki. ^^^

I'm only familiar with the Polio, MMR, DTP, Hep and HiB since my "baby" is 14. I did some research on both sides of the issue at the time and although I wasn't too comfortable, all my girls have had those that are are required to enter public school.

I would check to see what's required to register for kindergarten. That should give you an idea of what's absolutely necessary and at least somewhat safe.

kurty[B]

Did you do all shots that were suggested for that age in one visit?

Thanks for the reminder on daycares, I need to look up the requirements for the various daycares he will end up at when she decides to go back to college/work.

I'm currently perusing the CDC's website on vaccines and studying up on that. Does anyone have any links to studies about autism (both disproving and attempting to prove that vaccines may cause it)?

If you were sending your child to school do you expect all the children to have all the vaccinations yours has, or do you accept that it is public domain and some children might not and in so doing run the risk of a possible disease running through your school?

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ShaniFaye

Boy if my sister were here, she'd go one for days about NOT immunizing...she is so so against it. Her myspace use to be filled with all the reasons not to and page upon page of the autism thing

Me? my child is 14 so she had all the immu's that were around in 1993 except the one for chicken pox, it has JUST come out and there was no way I was getting it for her because it was too new.

I didnt have to worry about requirements, Manda was never in daycare or public school so I dont know what they require these days (my sis's kids are homeschooled too I I know she didnt have that "fight" either)

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Ustwo

First, do your own googling on the autism thing and I'd recommend going to quackwatch.com, I did it when it was time for my sons first vaccinations a few years ago. I don't have the links anymore but basically one poorly done small study showed what might be a link in the UK to autism, but it was pretty throughly trashed. Also the preservative in question is no longer used in any case. I had a doctor friend of mine at the time (DDS) tell me all the vaccination conspiracy horror stories. Got me thinking so I really researched it and decided the negligent thing would be to NOT get him vaccinated. Turns out my friend, who is really a great guy, is also a bit of a loon, and is pretty much against everything as being somehow unhealthy. Nice guy though.

My daughter just got 4 vaccinations a few weeks ago, shes 20weeks or so old. While that might seem extreme, whats more extreme, going multiple visits to the doctors office and EVERY time getting a new shot, or just getting it done with? She was fine after.

Your real problem is that the mother sounds like the type that will read one article from anywhere and then no mountain of AMA evidence will convince her, so goodluck with that.

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*Nikki*

Yes. Why make it even more scary for the child and have a single shot at every visit? They are SO QUICK when they give the vaccines. Even when she had four at a time they were over in seconds, she cried, then I picked her up and all was fine.

Also daycares/child care providers do REQUIRE vaccines as do schools.

Bossnass

I don't have any helpful links. I would put this 'debate' into paranoia.

The principles of vaccination are sound. See "polio" and "smallpox". Your child gets shots and then your child doesn't get infectious diseases.

I had a flu shots about 2 months ago and I had a mumps/measles/rubella booster because of a local outbreak last week.

I can understand how someone could have the "I don't want no poison or sickness in my baby" perspective. I can also understand biology and immunology. When we have children, they will be fully vaccinated.

If someone is concerned about the minute-amounts-of-mercury-proven-to-not-be-harmful, you can pay extra to get a mercury free version. Just be aware that there is also 'poison aluminum' in the shots as well, although aluminum is also found in tinfoil hats.

I've seen otherwise intelligent people completely shut down their ability to reason, research, and think critically when it comes to inoculations.

kurty[B]

That's exactly what I am up against.

And I don't see the point in making a visit to the doctor even more horrible than it has to be by taking him in every two weeks to get poked and prodded? But, I think her reasoning is that stacking up the shots runs a higher risk of him getting a fever.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/par...ult.htm#pguide

This has been a good resource so far, for simple answers, but I will have to google what I can and find that study that somehow associates shots with autism and find others that disprove is to hope mom just breaks down and gets the shots taken care of. If she doesn't, I will, and that will just be another fun argument for another day.

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*Nikki*

If it helps any at all, I gave my daughter Tylenol right after her doctor visit. She didn't get a fever and had only slight swelling at the injection site.

robot_parade

Grrr...

The anti-vaccination thing is one of those things that makes me angry. :-)

Look, either she can buy into modern medicine, and take your kid to the doctor, and follow his advice, or not.

Vaccinations are a proven benefit. They're one of the top medical advances ever. They're safe. They're effective. There's no logical reason not to use them. I understand some people have fears about them, but those fears are unfounded. I don't have any links off the top of my head, but the quackwatch on Ustwo mentioned is good, as well as anything from the ama or cdc.

jorgelito

Why don't you take the child to the doctor's to get the shots. That way the mother won't have to worry about it.

Do they make vaccines that can be taken orally?

laconic1

This pretty much sums up my feelings on this to a T. So frustrating that people are willing to risk their children's health by not immunizing because of irrational unfounded fears.

hrandani

I decided unless there's a major drawback to wait until 6-8 months, a year if possible and get them all done then. Also to insist on non thimerosal vaccines or whatever, because there is just zero reason to inject mercury into a baby.

jewels

Another thought.

Even IF you're thoroughly convinced that the data in that one study was the voice of authority and that there might be a link to autism, consider the alternatives.

Do some research on the diseases you're considering immunizing against and see if you don't feel better knowing your baby's protected against those.

I'd go with the doctor's suggested schedule. They're based on getting all appropriate doses within a certain timeframe to keep them free of these diseases without causing harm to the child.

Kids are not permitted in public school without up-to-date immunization records, which would include evidence of the required vaccinations.

Jinn

There are no rational arguments against modern vaccination. It is a tried-and-true principle, and relies on our own human immune system to develop antibodies.

There are theistic arguments against it, there are anecdonatal arguments against it, but there are no scientific (repeatable, observable) arguments against human vaccination for known diseases in healthy children and adults (non HIV, etc)

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Willravel

I like mercury in my thermometer and aluminum in my block. Ethylene glycol is useful in coolant. I don't think formaldehyde has any decent uses.

None of them belong in my bloodstream, even in trace amounts.

Bossnass

So your daughter didn't get her shots? Have you been immunized against Hep A/B? If you were heading to an area that had yellow fever (or otherwise traveling to global locations with regional diseases that have available vaccines), you wouldn't get your shots?

highthief

The only one my daughter did not get was her second MMR shot - she had a reaction, as some children do, the first one so the doctor recommended she not get the booster just yet.

Immunization has helped wipe out or seriously limit the spread of many illnesses - kids used to die or get seriously, not that long ago, from measles, diptheria, polio, smallpox and more.

By all means, people should do research into medical practices, but the benefits of the various immunizations greatly outweigh any potential negatives.

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TotalMILF

You'd be a damn fool not to immunize your child.

There is NO PROOF that vaccinating your child causes autism. Studies have shown that there is a positive correlation between the number of children being immunized and the number of children being diagnosed with autism, but I hope to God that we, the educated and enlightened population of the TFP, all know that Correlation != Causation.

The rise Autism diagnoses is largely attributed to the fact that the guidelines for diagnosing Autism have changed over the past several years. Whereas a person may have just been considered to be mentally retarded or "slow" in the past, they may now be diagnosed with autism. That doesn't mean we have more autistic people now than in the past, just that the system for diagnosing and "labeling" them is different now. Saying "immunizations cause autism" is like saying "more people ate sour patch kids last year than ever before, and there was also a rise in malignant melanoma... so sour patch kids must cause cancer!!" WTF?

If you're not convinced by now let me tell you a story of recent events here in Michigan. There was an outbreak of half a dozen cases of Measles at several local elementary schools. The children became very ill and several had to be hospitalized. EVERY SINGLE INFECTED CHILD HAD NOT BEEN IMMUNIZED AGAINST THE DISEASE. Not a single child who had been vaccinated against Measles fell ill.

Finally, just go and google Polio, Tetanus, Measles, Mumps, Rubella, Diptheria, Pertussis, etc. Why would you ever, EVER unnecessarily expose your child to these horrible diseases!?

/rant

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Willravel

Correlation isn't the same as causation, but to ignore the correlation doesn't make sense.

xepherys

Ignoring would be ignorant, but research shows no reason to believe there IS a causal relationship between them. Besides, statistics are 98% bullshit anyhow.

Honestly, there is no good medical evidence to support NOT vaccinating your children and quite a bit supporting doing so. Sure, medical evidence can be wrong, but it's not really a good thing to go against when regarding children. You can't even use the excuse that medicine over-exaggerates risk. Most medical professionals agree that overdoing things like antibiotics and antibacterials (in the home and office) have actually INCREASED illnesses today. Being exposed to some, preferably low-risk bad stuff is good for developing immune systems. But for the higher-risk illnesses, the good does not outweigh the bad.

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Bossnass

Ustwo

Did you know there is a strong correlation between gene for blue eyes and the inability to use chopsticks?

But at any rate the problem is that there really wasn't a real correlation between the vaccinations and anything like autism.

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Willravel

So you (and apparently most other people in this thread) believe there's no research available that shows a causal relationship between mercury and autism/dementia? You aren't aware that the effects of mercury are cumulative, or in other words it builds up over time?

There is mercury in vaccines and flu shots. Mercury has been shown repeatedly to cause autism. That is of course the correlation, and it's established biological scientific fact.

While I appreciate that some of you trust your doctors implicitly, it's not wrong to question the experts if you find reasonable fault in their logic. There absolutely is fault in believing, or more importantly purporting as an expert that mercury cannot lead to autism. It can and it has.

The real question, though, shouldn't be "Can vaccines cause autism?", to which the answer is yes. The real question should be, "Statistically speaking, is one more likely to be exposed to the disease covered by the inoculation, or is one more likely to get autism?" Statistics *seem* to suggest that autism is impossible, but I've demonstrated that's not true. This would suggest that either the pool measured was too small, the test was give poorly, or it was purposefully incorrect (unlikely). A variable statistic on how the mercury in a vaccine can effect someone is not something I'm willing to gamble with.

Even beyond that, there's no guarantee that a vaccine will render you immune, and if one can develop an immunity from a shot, one could also develop one naturally.

But I digress; if you wish to be immunized, do research and make your decision. I've done mine and I'm satisfied that I am not incorrect, so there's no need to preach. I am fortunate that it doesn't take a degree in biology to understand that mercury can cause autism. For more complex questions, I must trust that the experts aren't fucking up.

highthief

Thiomersal (I presume this is what you are speaking of) is not found in current children's vaccines, with the possible exception of the flu vaccine.

Autism is usually reported/diagnosed in early childhood - coincidentally the same time as many vaccines are administered but they are certainly not shown to be the cause of autism as recent studies have shown.

You need to present some researched facts here, Will.

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analog

^^.

TotalMILF

WRONG.

None of the typical and recommended children's vaccines contain thimerosal (the preservative that contains mercury). There are some vaccines that still do--the flu shot, meningococcal vaccine and some alternative tetanus vaccines--but if you stick to what's on your kid's vaccine card they'll never get a thimerosal-containing vaccine during their childhood. Don't believe me? Check this out: Thimerosal Content in Some US Licensed Vaccines

Read this, too (from the CDC):

...and this (from the FDA):

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Bossnass

Alright, so you've demonstrated that you have a poor understanding of immunology. You've stated that you are unwilling to be wrong, but that isn't a new issue. My questions, which you appeared to ignore, are:

WillRavel, did your daughter get her shots? If she only received her first set, are you going to deny her future shots? And, assuming you and MrsRavel were forced to have your immunizations, would you refuse any future shot? Say you're heading to the Amazon basin on a humanitarian mission, an area rife with tropical diseases that have established vaccines.

1010011010

I feel compelled to point out that vaccination, while it does help the individual in many cases, is actually more about changing the epidemiology of certain infections for the good of the whole population. A vaccine that did nothing to actually protect you individually from infection, lessen your symptoms, or shorten your recovery time would still be an excellent vaccine if it reduced the amount of time you could infect others.

A handful of people maintaining normal infectious characteristics can undermine the effectiveness of an entire vaccination program. It doesn't matter if "I'm afraid vaccination may hurt my little darling." is a valid concern or not- it is irrelevant. Vaccination isn't about helping or hurting your little darling, it's about controlling the spread of disease. Failure to vaccinate your child, endangers every other child (and adult, potentially).

It'll be great your kid doesn't have autism until he's the keystone carrier for a global pandemic. fnord

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robot_parade

Please link to the research that you claim exists to show this link. What is the considered opinion of reputable medical agencies and organizations?

That's common knowledge. Mercury is dangerous stuff. No doubt about it.

By and large, there isn't. There was some concern that the amount of thimerosal in vaccines could lead to children getting more than the recommended maximum amount of mercury from childhood vaccines. Mercury poisoning is obviously something to be avoided, so the FDA determined that thimerisol should be removed wherever possible. Note that the worry was *mercury poisoning* and *not* autism.

http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

There. Every vaccine on the list except for one version of the DTaP vaccine and the flu vaccine is thimerisol free. The DTaP has less than a microgram per dose. If you are concerned about mercury in vaccinations for your children, you can just make sure your doctor doesn't use the one containing *trace* amounts of mercury. If you're in the recommended group for flu vaccination, you can use the nasal spray flu vaccine instead of the injected ones - it isn't as effective, though.

The thimerosal issue is an excellent case study in how actual medicine works. Vaccines are invented. Yah. However, there's a problem - they can become contaminated, especially in large multi-dose vials. So a preservative/anti-microbial agent is added - thimerosal. However, in the 90s, the AMA (I think) realized that the amount of thimerosal in standard vaccinations was higher than we would like. So thimerosal is being phased out. They're safer now. Medicine has advanced.

No it hasn't. You have been misinformed. The only people who claim that mercury is definately related to autism are quacks and angry, frightened parents looking for someone to blame for their child's disease.

http://www.autism-society.org/site/P..._whatis_causes

That page also discusses a *possible link* between the MMR vaccine and autism, but that current evidence shows no link...and that there needs to be more research. I agree 100%...more research is probably a good idea. However, based upon the available research to date, neither mercury nor vaccines are prime suspects for the cause of autism. Either could still be shown to be related, but hasn't yet.

(By the way, I don't know much about the site in question, so I hesitate to link to it...but the page seems pretty accurate to me)

Autism is generally believed to be caused (most directly) by abnormalities in the structure of the brain. What causes those abnormalities is still under debate. It could be that mercury is a factor, but that hasn't been scientifically proven, and most research to date seems to point to no relationship. Even so, your kids aren't getting mercury from their vaccines...they're getting it from their fish sticks:

http://www.fda.gov/fdac/reprints/mercury.html


Of course you shouldn't blindly trust anyone. But why do you listen to the quacks over the advice of your doctor, the FDA, the AMA, and established medical fact?

I don't really understand what you're arguing here. You seem to be suggesting that:

1: Vaccines cause an X% increase in the risk of your kid getting autism (This hasn't been shown to be true, at all)

2: Not getting a vaccine causes a Y% increase in the risk of your kid getting the disease in question.

3: X > Y

Therefore, you should not vaccinate you kids. There are lots of problems with this. First, there's no established evidence that X is greater than 0. Second, you have to compare the severity of the diseases in question. Autism is certainly scary, but it doesn't cause death, which many of the diseases kids are vaccinated against can and do. Third, vaccinations are a shared immunity - the more people immunized, the less disease there is to go around and infect unvaccinated people. Remember Polio? It's practically extinct, thanks to the vaccine.


Sure, you can develop a natural immunity to a disease by catching it. Assuming it doesn't kill you, that is. The whole point of vaccines is to get the immunity *without* having to experience the actual disease. It doesn't always work, of course, and occasionally a person will get the disease despite being vaccinated. However, their immune system usually does a much better job of fighting off the disease. There's also the possibility of 'booster' shots, which is another topic.

The diseases vaccines are meant to protect us against are *nasty* things, that *kill people*. Even chicken pox and the flu, though of course to a lesser degree than the really bad ones.

Ok, let me sum up my points:

o Mercury exposure has not been show to cause autism. It hasn't even been proven to have a significant correlation.

o Autism is associated with physical abnormalities in the brain. What causes those abnormalities is not known at this time. Mercury is on the list of possible causes that are being investigated, but most researchers think it isn't a very likely cause.

o Most modern vaccines contain no mercury. If you're concerned, then ask your doctor not to give you or your child any vaccine with thimerosal or mercury.

o Vaccines are safe, and effective. However, they are neither 100% safe nor 100% effective. Bad reactions are rare, but can occur. You should be informed as to what they are before getting vaccinations. Autism is *not* one of the known side effects of vaccination.

o You get more mercury from eating fish regularly than you would from getting vaccinated regularly. If you're concerned about mercury (and you should be), you should check the fish you eat against mercury contamination charts freely available on the internet, and consider changing your diet to safer fish. You might also consider supporting organizations and politicians who will work to reduce the amount of mercury being released in our environment.

o Science works. Use it. Don't listen to the quacks.

o I can't spell thimerosal correctly.

Willravel

1) Do children get vaccines with Thiomersal?
Current international vaccines that include Thiomersal:
diphtheria, tetanus and pertussis (DTP), diphtheria and tetanus toxoids (DT), tetanus toxoid (TT), hepatitis B, Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib), and influenza.
Thiomersal is still used commonly outside of the US in the vaccinations listed above. In the US, most of Thiomersal (not all) was removed 1999, but what does that mean? That means everyone on TFP (born before December of 1989) who was immunized is at risk, and that many outside of the US is still being injected with mercury. As TFP is an international forum, it hardly seems prudent to only discuss the US.

2) Can mercury cause autism?
Mercury introduced into humans is very damaging to many systems, especially the nervous system. It is especially dangerous to a fetus or young child (4-5x more sensitive than adults). Mercury is known and proven to kill neurons in the visual cortex, cerebellum, and dorsal root ganglia. Pathophysiology describes autism's mechanism as being an alteration of brain development after conception in that abnormalities in purkinjo cells in the cerebellum are found. (wiki)

3) The "correlation" evidence:
US
- Since 1991, when the CDC and the FDA had recommended that three additional vaccines laced with the preservative be given to extremely young infants -- in one case, within hours of birth -- the estimated number of cases of autism had increased fifteenfold, from one in every 2,500 children to one in 166 children.
- Early Downward Trends in Neurodevelopmental Disorders Following Removal of Thimerosal-Containing Vaccines (.pdf)
According to this now famous study by the Journal of American Physicians and Surgeons, childhood Autism and other childhood neurological disorders dropped off 35% since Thiomersal was basically removed from children's vaccines
UK
- Since 1970, British health authorities have recommended vaccination with thimerosal-containing vaccines. Even so, nearly 15 percent of British children were not vaccinated between 1970 and 1980; only one autistic child has been found in this unvaccinated group, in contrast with an epidemic of autism among vaccinated children.

I'm hardly suggesting that all autism is caused by mercury, and I'm not suggesting that if you get a shot you're getting autism, but the facts above should be hard to ignore.

snowy

Um...and yet we're all fine, for the most part.

Vaccinating your kids is key to keeping diseases like polio from returning. We have eradicated smallpox in this country because of vaccination. It's not only something you do for the health and safety of your own child, but for the sake of other children, especially if your child is going to go to daycare/preschool/school.

In this case, the benefits to your child and to other children really do outweigh the risks.

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Willravel

Now that thiomersal has been removed from most US vaccinations (and let's be honest, the flu vaccine at the very most prevents you from being sick a few days, so it's hardly important, and at the very least just sits there and looks pretty, but not as pretty as snowy of course ), the case shifts to aluminum and a few other dangerous chemicals in trace amounts.

With Aluminum, the trace amounts probably aren't enough to do any real damage, and one may find more in processed cheese. The only issue I have with it is the aluminum is injected directly into the blood stream. I know they are supposed to enhance immune response, but there are organic compounds that do the same thing. So basically there's no evidence of danger with aluminum salt, but it's not really necessary to have it in case evidence may come up that something that can be dangerous (aluminum in larger doses can be dangerous) and maybe it's a bad idea to use 90 year old medicine with something so important.

abaya

Yup. So have you and your family also stopped eating fish, Will?


I'm still wondering whether or not you chose to vaccinate your own daughter... someone asked that a couple of times already, but I haven't seen the answer.

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Willravel

Any child born after 1999 in the US would not be in danger from mercury (aside from flu vaccines). That's the answer.

*Nikki*

I was led to believe by my Dr. that the vaccines DID contain the preservative Thiomersol in very small amounts UNLESS you requested to have a vaccine without it.

Willravel

Pregnant women an young children aren't supposed to have shark, swordfish, tilefish, or mackerel precisely because mercury is dangerous for fetuses and young children (like I said in my post above). Shrimp, light tuna, catfish (ew), and salmon (my favorite) all have little to no mercury. The younger and smaller the fish, the less likely it is to have mercury.

More information:
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~frf/sea-mehg.html
http://www.epa.gov/waterscience/fish/
Was this after 1999?

Now I don't know what to believe. I'll contact an endocrinologist through Kaiser so as to avoid all the contradictory online resources.

Ustwo

Oh dear will.....

I was very intrigued by this one link of yours because unlike say the rolling stones one this one was a real study...

http://www.jpands.org/vol11no1/geier.pdf

Ok so I skimmed it, and it looks real. I went straight to the discussion and conclusions, but at any rate this is what I see at the very end...

Ok ones only a B.A. but hey, we all started somewhere, but both are involved as expert witnesses in anti-vaccination cases....

Ok nothing that says 'wrong' here, but then I google Mark R. Geier and the second link that comes up is in 'quackwatch.org'....not a good thing.

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/geier.shtml

Mmmm oops?

http://www.casewatch.org/fdawarning/rsch/geierk.shtml

He also seems to have had research suspended for poor methodology and violating patient confidentiality codes.

http://www.casewatch.org/civil/ayr.shtml

So what we have here will, is someone who is deemed unreliable by his peers, and the courts.

Now that in itself wouldn't mean he MUST be wrong, but you do have to understand that unlike some vast conspiracy, there isn't a doctor out there who wouldn't want solid proof for what causes something like autism. Even if you were only self serving you would be a hero if you could produce such evidence, yet oddly, here we are with someone with an extensive quackwatch file as your proof.

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highthief

So, a "little" mercury in fish is OK, but the absence of it in vaccinations is not? Because it is not present in vaccines typically given to young children in your country.

I have to admit, I'm utterly confused at your stance.

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