stevie667

Ahh, as long as it gives you cancer, i can completly ignore health warnings. My toast gives me cancer, my air gives me cancer, my water gives me cancer, i give me cancer, in fact typing this will give me cancer.

I drink semi-skimmed milk, so it doesn't have too much fat, but still, i like my milk.

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motdakasha

Please provide evidence or a source for this "fact" as I just don't see how you can make such an outrageous claim. I'm curious as to where you learned this.
I have a confession: I laughed when I read that statement.

I drink 8 servings or more of milk per day and "doc[s] says im in great shape...thanks doc[s]." Different strokes for different folks. One can be healthy with and without dairy.

Also, to follow up my previous post about milk as an aid for weight loss. I saw this on a milk cap yesterday: http://www.2424milk.com
http://www.2424milk.com/2424_science_overview.htm

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Grasshopper Green

Hehe...I had a diet Coke at work the other day and my boss told me it causes cancer...I told him that breathing the air causes cancer, because it's pretty much true in the smog infested area I live in.

However, I still agree with the milk thing, but again, it's just my opinion.

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mingusfingers

The majority of the population on earth does not drink milk, and the majority of them are lactose intolerant.

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filtherton

I think conceptually milk is disgusting. Cows are foul creatures. Cows pumped full of hormones and antibiotics are even more foul. The thought of drinking mucousy cow breast milk to me is disgusting. Enriched soy or rice milk is just as nutritious as milk and tastes better in my opinion. Though i must admit i am a big fan of the cheese, i get organic whenever possible.

st33lr4t

i drink almost a gallon a day of skim milk. nothing like a quality source of carbs and protein.

Lead543

There's lots of conflicting rumours about milk being good or bad for you. Personally, I've never liked the taste of milk, I've only drank milk that comes in a jug or carton for about 3 years now, before then it was powdered milk. (This mostly had to do with our previous location in the world). I've taken calcium supplements for about 8 years now, I get about 1500 mg a day I believe, I take 3 usually. They're expensive but at least I know I'm getting calcium if I choose not to drink milk.

highthief

Love milk, it's generally good for most people, IMO, providing good amounts of proteins and calcium.

People hate on stuff that's popular, like the USA, the Catholic Church and milk.

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Vincentt

notmilk.com...

hard to trust sites that have those silly moving .gifs

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Zeraph

Trust me milk is horrible for everyone, I did a paper on the thing years back. Did such a good job that I was infamous for years afterward as the milk guy (no joke). I'd go into the details but doing that paper made me sick of it (I also don't remember all the specifics anymore and don't know where I put the paper, if I find it ill post it).

How does it make sense to anyone to drink something that is meant for a baby cow? It would make more sense to replace cow milk with breast milk but you don't see anyone doing that. But don't concentrate on this part of my argument, do some research of your own, find out how horrible they treat most cows, and find out all the horrible chemicals in it (even if its organic theres still the hormones that are bad for us).

Zeraph

Bullshit, to an extent that's true, but all three of those things deserve most of their hate to begin with. If what you said were strictly true then hating bunnies could become prevalent.

As for calcium, our bodies need vit D to absorb calcium, milk has shit for vit D. So unless youre taking D supplements or getting a lot of it in your diet, milk alone is a horrible source of calcium. If anything it detracts from your calcium in your bones because of the protein. Christ, generally good for most people? Try doing some research, something like 70% of the world's people are lactose intolerant. Do some research before you spout nonsense.

Don't even get me started on saturated fat.

Nothing personal, I just happened to read your post most recently.

Holdem Dvorak

I have heard from some nurses that they have read in "healthcare literature" that it has been linked in prostate cancer, but I use a laptop so I'm probably already doomed for that.

Zeraph did you suffer from a tragic bovine accident?

highthief

Wow! You did a PAPER on the subject! My, my!

And there are about a million studies showing milk as being part of a normal and healthy diet. Obviously if you are lactose intolerant you shouldn't drink it. Lots of people are allergic to honey, shellfish and strawberries - it doesn't mean these products are bad, just that they are bad for people who are allergic to them.

And yeah, when you spout off like that, people DO take it personally. But I guess that's the way you want to be spoken to yourself.

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highthief

Just a quick review of some studies. Or are they all wrong?

MILK PRODUCTS & CALCIUM ...FOR MORE THAN BUILDING STRONG BONES Everyone knows we need milk products to build strong, healthy bones. But did you know that milk products also play an important role in other areas of health? In fact, research indicates that calcium, especially when it's from milk products, plays a key role in preventing many chronic diseases.

Disease Research shows...
Heart Disease and Stroke Calcium from milk products and heart-healthy bacteria in yoghurt may play a role in reducing blood cholesterol. Preliminary research also suggests that certain types of fat found in milk help reduce the risk of heart disease.
High Blood Pressure Calcium, especially from milk products, has been shown to control blood pressure. A normal blood pressure is good for overall heart health.
Colon Cancer Calcium and vitamin D can play an important role in reducing the risk for colon cancer. Fermented milk products such as yoghurt and buttermilk provide added protection from colon cancer. Preliminary research also shows different milk fats as good when it comes to reducing the risk of this type of cancer.
Dental Health Milk products, especially firm cheeses such as Cheddar, Swiss, Mozzarella, Edam, Monterey Jack and Brie help prevent cavities. Enjoying a fruit and cheese platter after a meal is a good thing.
PMS (Premenstrual Syndrome) Preliminary research indicates that calcium may reduce symptoms such as bloating, fatigue, irritability, abdominal cramps and back pain.


CALCIUM AND CHRONIC DISEASE

Emerging research is expanding calcium's role beyond bone health. Calcium is now being hailed as a key player in preventing chronic diseases such as heart disease, stroke, hypertension and colon cancer.

Following are highlights of calcium's growing importance in preventing chronic disease.

HEART DISEASE
Researchers have proposed the existence of a "milk factor" that seems to have a cholesterol-lowering effect (1,2).


Several studies have indicated that the "milk factor" might be calcium (3,4,5).


Some studies have suggested that regular consumption of milk, particularly fat free milk, may lower blood cholesterol levels, especially in people who have hyperlipidemia (high blood cholesterol) (6,7).


Analysis of the Iowa Women's Health Study, observing more than 34,000 women, revealed that a relatively high calcium intake was associated with a reduced risk for heart disease mortality (8).


The researchers suggest that calcium may contribute to reducing cholesterol levels because calcium binds to bile acids in the gut, thus increasing their excretion, and decreasing their re-absorption into the bloodstream. Since cholesterol is a precursor to make bile acids, the body withdraws cholesterol from the blood. This in turn may reduce blood cholesterol levels (6,7,8).


Studies have also demonstarted that consumption of fermented milk products, such as yoghurt made with the bacteria Lactobacillus acidophilus, can actually help to reduce blood cholesterol levels (9). One theory that has been proposed is that some strains of Lactobacillus acidophilus change the structure of bile acids, thus increasing their excretion (10).


Although not all studies indicate a cholesterol-lowering effect, intake of milk products has not been shown to increase blood lipid levels (3,11,12,13).
HYPERTENSION
There is evidence to suggest that calcium intake reduces the risk of hypertension. Controlling blood pressure reduces the risk for developing cardiovascular disease.


Moreover, the data also reveals that there is more consistency in the results of the studies that used dietary calcium as compared to those studies that used non-dietary sources of calcium (14).


The impact of calcium on blood pressure appears to be the greatest in people who consume low levels of dietary calcium (14).


In addition, the renowned DASH (Dietary Approaches to Stop Hypertension) study demonstrated a significant reduction in blood pressure in individuals who consumed low-fat dairy products (2.7 servings per day on average), in addition to fruits and vegetables (15).
STROKE
The Honolulu Heart Program (a 22 year follow up of 3,150 men that was initiated in 1965) demonstrated an association between milk consumption and reduced risk for stroke (16).


The study showed that calcium from dairy sources, but not from non-dairy sources, was related to reduced risk for stroke (16).


A similar finding was revealed in the 1980-1994 Nurses' Health Study involving more than 85,000 women (17).


One explanation is that calcium may have a hypotensive effect, and may also contribute to reduced platelet aggregation (17).
COLON CANCER
Clinical trials in humans generally support a protective effect of calcium against colon cancer. It appears that vitamin D also plays a crucial role in conjunction with calcium in reducing the risk of colon cancer (18,19,20,21,22,23,24)


One proposed mechanism is that calcium increases the pH level in the colon, thus making it less acidic and less irritating to the colonic cells. In addition, calcium also binds to bile acids, rendering them harmless (23,24,25,26,27,28,29).
PREMENSTRUAL SYNDROME (PMS)
PMS is an umbrella term to describe a set of mood, cognitive and physical symptoms that occur before the onset of menstruation.


As many as 80 per cent of women experience PMS (30).


There is some evidence suggesting that increasing dietary calcium and vitamin D may reduce PMS symptoms, such as bloating, fatigue, cramps, irritability, abdominal pain and back pain (31,32,33,34).


A few studies have even shown that PMS may be a marker for low calcium status (35,36).


Women with PMS have significantly lower vertebral bone mass (36).
References
Rossouw JE, Burger E-M, van der Vyver P, Ferreira JJ (1982) The effect of skim milk, yogurt, and full cream milk on human serum lipids. Am J Clin Nutr 34:351-56.


Buonopane GJ, Kilara A, Smith JS, McCarthy RD (1992) Effect of skim milk supplementation on blood cholesterol concentration, blood pressure, and triglycerides in a free-living human population. J Am Coll Nutr 11(1):56-67.


Karanja N, Morris CD, Rufolo P, Snyder G, Illingworth DR, McCarron DA (1994) Impact of increasing calcium in the diet on nutrient consumption, plasma lipids and lipoproteins in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 59:900-07.


Denke MA, Fox M, Schulte MC (1993) Short-term dietary calcium fortification increases fecal fat content and reduces serum lipids in men. J Nutr 123:1047-53.


Bell L, Halstenson CE, Halstenson CJ, Macres M, Keane WF (1992) Cholesterol-lowering effects of calcium carbonate in patients with mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia. Arch Intern Med 152:2441-44.


Denke MA, Fox M, Schulte MC (1993) Short-term dietary calcium fortification increases fecal fat content and reduces serum lipids in men. J Nutr 123:1047-53.


Bell L, Halstenson CE, Halstenson CJ, Macres M, Keane WF (1992) Cholesterol-lowering effects of calcium carbonate in patients with mild to moderate hypercholesterolemia. Arch Intern Med 152:2441-44.


Bostick RM, Kushi LH, Wu Y, Meyer KA, Sellers TA, Folsom AR (1999) Relation of Calcium, Vitamin D, and Dairy Food Intake to Ischemic Heart Disease Mortality among Postmenopausal Women. Am J Epidemiol 149(2):151-161.


Anderson JW, Gilliland SE (1999) Effect of fermented milk (yogurt) containing lactobacillus acidophilus l1 on serum cholesterol in hypercholesterolemic humans. J Am Coll Nutr 18(1):43-50.


St. Onge M-P, Farnworth ER, Jones PJH (2000) Consumption of fermented and nonfermented dairy products effects on cholesterol concentrations and metabolism. Am J Clin Nutr 71:674-681.


Steinmetz KA, Childs MT, Stimson C, Kushi LH, McGovern PG, Potter JD, Yamanaka WK (1994) Effect of consumption of whole milk and skim milk on blood lipid profiles in healthy men. Am J Clin Nutr 59:612-18.


Rossouw JE, Burger E-M, van der Vyver P, Ferreira JJ (1982) The effect of skim milk, yogurt, and full cream milk on human serum lipids. Am J Clin Nutr 34:351-56.


Thompson LU, Jenkins DJA, Amer MAV, Reichert R, Jenkins A, Kamulsky J (1982) The effect of fermented and unfermented milks on serum cholesterol. Am J Clin Nutr 36:1106-11.


McCarron DA, Reusser ME (1999) Finding consensus in the dietary calcium-blood pressure debate. J Am Coll Nutr 18(5):398S-405S.


Appel LJ, Moore TJ, Obarzanek E, Vollmer WM, Svetkey LP, Sacks FM, Bray GA, Vogt TM, Cutler JA, Windhauser MM, Lin PH, Karanja NA (1997) clinical trial of the effects of dietary patterns on blood pressure. NEJM, 336(16):1117-1124.


Abbott RD, Curb JD, Rodriguez BL, Sharp DS, Burchfiel CM, Yano K (1996) Effect of dietary calcium and milk consumption on risk of thromboembolic stroke in older middle-aged men. The Honolulu Heart Program. Stroke, 27:813-818.


Iso H, Stampfer MJ, Manson JE, Rexrode K, Hennekens CH, Colditz GA, Speizer FE, Willett WC (1999) Prospective study of calcium, potassium, and magnesium intake and risk of stroke in women. Stroke, 30:1772-1779.


Newmark HL, Lipkin M (1992) Calcium, vitamin D, and colon cancer. Cancer Res 52(suppl):2067-70.


Lipkin M, Newmark HL, Kelloff G (Eds) (1991) Calcium, Vitamin D, and Prevention of Colon Cancer, CRC Press, Boca Raton, FL.


Barsoum GH, Hendrickse C, Winslet MC, Youngs D, Donovan IA, Neoptolemos JPKeighley MRB (1992) Reduction of mucousal crypt cell proliferation in patients with colorectal adenomatous polyps by dietary calcium supplementation. Br J Surg 79:581-83.


Wargovich MJ, Isbell G, Shabot M, Winn R, Lanza F, Hochman L, Larson E, Lynch P, Roubein L, Levin B (1992) Calcium supplementation decreases rectal epithelial proliferation in subjects with sporadic adenoma. Gastroenterology 103:92-97.


Bostick RM, Fosdick L, Wood JR, Grambsch P, Grandits GA, Lillemoe TJ, Louis TA, Potter JD (1995) Calcium and colorectal epithelial cell proliferation in sporadic adema patients: a randomized, double-blinded, placebo-controlled clinical trial. J Natl Cancer Inst 87:1307-15.


Govers MJAP, Tremont DSML, Lapre JA, Kleibeuker JH, Vonk RJ, Van der Meer R (1996) Calcium in milk products precipitates intestinal fatty acids and secondary bile acids and this inhibits colonic cytotoxicity in man. Cancer Res 56:3270-75.


Holt PR (1999) Dairy foods and prevention of colon cancer: human studies. J Am Coll Nutr 18(5):379S-391S.


Holt PR, Atillasoy EO, Gilman J, Guss J, Moss SF, Newmark H, Fan K, Yang K, Lipkin M (1998) Modulation of abnormal colonic epithelial cell proliferation and differentiation by low-fat dairy foods. JAMA 280:1074-79.


Van der Meer R, Lapre JA, Govers MJAP, Kleibeuker JH (1997) Mechanisms of the intestinal effects of dietary fats and milk products on colon carcinogenesis. Cancer Lett 114:75-83.


Lupton JR (1997) Dairy products and colon cancer: mechanisms of the protective effect. Am J Clin Nutr 66:1065-66.


Glinghammar B, Venturi M, Rowland IR, Rafter JJ (1997) Shift from a dairy product-rich to a dairy-product-free diet: influence on cytotoxicity and genotoxicity of fecal water - potential risk factors for colon cancer. Am J Clin Nutr 66:1277-82.


Lipkin M, Reddy B, Newmark H, Lamprecht SA (1999) Dietary factors in human colorectal cancer. Annu Rev Nutr 19:545-586.


ACOG (1995) Premenstrual syndrome (committee opinion). Int J Gynaecol Obstet 50:80-84.


Thys-Jacobs S, Ceccarelli A, Bierman A, Weisman H, Cohen MA, Alvir J (1989) Calcium supplementation in premenstrual syndrome: a randomized cross-over trial. J Gen Intern Med 4:183-89.


Thys-Jacobs S, Starkey P, Bernstein D, Tian J and the Premenstrual Syndrome Study Group. (1998) Calcium carbonate and the premenstrual syndrome: effects on premenstrual and menstrual symptoms. Am J Obstetr Gynecol 179:444-52.


Bendich A (2000) The potential for dietary supplements to reduce premenstrual syndrome (PMS) symptoms. J Am Coll Nutr 19(1):3-12.


Thys-Jacobs S (2000) Micronutrients and the premenstrual syndrome: the case for calcium. J Am Coll Nutr 19(2):220-27.


Lee SJ, Kanis JA (1994) An association between osteoporosis and premenstrual and postmenopausal symptoms. Bone Mineral 24:127-134.


Thys-Jacobs S, Silverton M, Alvir J, Paddison PL, Rico M, Goldsmith SJ (1995) Reduced bone mass in women with premenstrual syndrome. J Women's Health 4:161-168.

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Zeraph

I was just speaking freely the paper thing wasnt meant to come off as a brag, though I can see how it may seem that way.

Am I supposed to be impressed that you can copy and paste? Most of those studies have to do with calcium...I never said that was bad. And something tells me you did not read those studies.

2 more things. There are differences in milk, the common kind that the majority of people buy is going to be more bad for you than good. And the other thing is that the dairy industry, like the tobacco industry rakes in billions of dollars. They can and do fund their own biased research.

Zeraph

Nope. Just the insane irony that many humans have been turned into a type of cash cow themselves just rubs me the wrong way. But I'm a simple man so what do I know.

rhiannasanabria

Milk causes internal bleeding.

Please provide evidence or a source for this "fact" as I just don't see how you can make such an outrageous claim. I'm curious as to where you learned this.
I have a confession: I laughed when I read that statement

LOL same here. I have a friend whos mom thinks that milk is terribly bad for you. She tells me that everybody has their bad habits- she drinks diet soda even though she knows its not the healthiest. Come on now, how are you gonna compare drinking diet soda to drinking milk? Of course, she also doesnt believe in global warming or that you can get skin cancer from over-exposure to the sun...hmm. I do believe that milk can be harmful to you with all the hormones and antibiotics in use today, but thats why i buy organic.

ngdawg

Highthief: they may not be "wrong", but by personal experience via family members, not one of those studies or theories rings true. Spouse drinks milk exclusively-his cholesterol levels are astronomical. His dad drank milk, died of a heart attack at 62; brother drinks milk, had a heart attack at 49. Of course, none live exemplary lifestyles(think beer, cigs, sedentary, etc). My dad only drinks a small amount of milk-he's in damn good shape for 78(and I never saw him drink milk when I was growing up).
I can't drink milk, but it was that, water or orange juice growing up-never any soda-and my bone scans came out great, cholesterol is really low, blood minerals are fine. I had bad PMS when I was able to drink the stuff.
I took my kids off milk because of their severe acne on the advice of Amonkie via her own doctor-daughter's acne cleared up almost immediately, son's not so much.

Glory's Sun

This is why people should just stick to alcohol.

geez.

Ustwo

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ChrisJericho

I used to drink milk, but a few years ago I switched to soy. I'll still have milk when I go home to visit my parents and they have some cake and pie, nothing beats the taste of milk with chocolate cake!

But, I switched to soy, mainly because I just wanted to reduce the amount of animal-based food products I consume. Also, I grew up in dairy town and in middle school we actually visited the town dairy. We went into the room where the cows were milked, and it was kind of disgusting. Basically the cows line up to have those things attached to their udders, and while they are standing there, they are crapping and peeing as well (cows are not house trained!). So just be aware that when you drink milk, you're not JUST getting milk in your glass =D .

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shakran

And when you eat honey you're eating bee spit. What's your point?

If carrots were good for humans, why would chicken be so different?

I don't mind a reasoned approach to telling us why milk is bad, but your arguments are entirely based on logical fallacies.

Show us why milk is bad with the scientific data, not stuff that sounds like it comes from a political campaign

filtherton

My milk is only good when it's on your cocoa puffs, your milky, milky cocoa puffs.

snowy

I get my milk from a local dairy:


That's the actual dairy. None of their cows have ever been given bovine growth hormone, and they're fed vegetarian feed (not all cows are). They bottle their milk in reusable plastic containers. I buy the milk from the local food co-op, pay a deposit on the initial bottle, and return the bottle when I go back to buy more milk.

At 95 cents a half gallon, skim milk packs a nutritive protein punch that's hard to beat for the price, at least in my house.

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Plan9

I only drink Cambodia immigrant breast milk.

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KellyC

Fuck, I want some milk


...and cookies.

Ustwo, that's the epitome of nerdism.

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highthief

Right but that is "personal experience" - that's the point most neutral people make. Some people don't react well to milk - my wife is half-Asian and lactose intolerant and can't do milk. I'm northern European and milk is a normal and healthy part of my diet as it is for millions of people. And it's yummy along with steaks that are still red inside and various BBQ'd products - in moderation, none are very likely to hurt me or millions of others.

It's the blanket condemnations of milk and all things milk-related that are quite frankly ill-informed and highly biased.

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Ustwo

Yes, I know.

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Plan9

I bet he's got a whole deck of those at home. Shoebox. Under the bed. Tells his wife that it is "manly porn" but we all know the secret.

...

I'm drinking 1% w/ BGH right this very moment. Mmmm, the tingle lets you know that the disease is working.

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abaya

Half-Asian, half northern-European here... no problems whatsoever.

Funny thing is, when I'm in Thailand, it's damn near impossible to find fresh milk and/or dairy products. The only place I could find any cheese at all was Pizza Hut. I don't know if it's intolerance, or just the fact that the only bovines they have are water buffalos... but dairy is just not on offer there.

On the other hand, in Iceland, there is WAYYY too much dairy stuff available... every grocer's cold case is chock full of various types of milks, yogurts, puddings, skyr (Icelandic stuff), þykkmjólk (more Icelandic stuff), etc... and I happily gorge myself on all of it.

No milk-related health problems to speak of.

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Jinn

http://www.notmilk.com/

Check out the A to Z down the left side. I'm not sure I buy all of it (insubstantial or biased research) but nonetheless..

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mixedmedia

I've always heard that the most significant problem with humans drinking cow's milk is the difficulty we have digesting the proteins that are in it.

All milks are composed differently and goat's milk is supposed to be the (or one of the) milks most suited to humans. So why aren't we offered goat's milk instead? Production, volume, m-m-m-m-money.

I use organic non-fat milk but only on cereals and sometimes in cooking. No one in my house drinks glasses of milk.

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highthief

Oddly enough that's my wife's ancestry too - in her case, Chinese-German.

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*Nikki*

I used to drink a TON of milk and when I was preggo consumed 2 gallons a week. Now that I count calories though I drink water and only two cups of milk a day.

Ustwo

Its genetic, lactose tolerance is a somewhat recent mutation from northern Europe which has spread but it still somewhat rare in most parts of the world.

Whats interesting to me is that often lactose intolerance is thought of as a disease, when in reality thats the human normal, tolerance is the recent mutation.

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Leto

I didn't read too much more, after this post, but maybe somebody should teach this lad some grammar. A very difficult entry to read... At any rate, I will continue to read through this thread now.


I agree. It also has a disturbing "blue" tinge too it. The happy medium between Skim and Homo milk is 2%. This is what I always buy. Of course, I get the 5% cream for my coffee as well.


Okay, so it was spotted!

I heard (albeit from my brother who tends to spin the odd yarn or two) that second grade or "yellow" milk - the above mentioned mucousy stuff - is what is used by the dairy industry to produce chocolate milk. Even if he was having me on, I haven't been able to buy chocolate milk since then.


mmmmmmmm


My wife is all Han Chinese, her parents rarely use cheese, (when ordering pizza). Yet she insists on drinking milk for health benefits, and doesn't seem to suffer at all from it. She also loves her cheese (preferring hard cheddar, Oka and Brie).

Myself: German/Scottish mix, but definitely a Northern European descended Canadian. Dairy products have been my life, and I love cheese. any kind of cheese, just pile it on. As long as I take my Lipitor (!!) I'm okay.

ChrisJericho

Well since we are talking about ancestry now, I think I will chime in again.

I am half asian (japanese) and half european (english. german. irish, french, dutch). I can pretty much eat all dairy products like yogurt, cheese, ice cream, the only time I will notice a difference is if I have a huge glass of straight-up milk. After that I will get a little gassy, but not enough to dissuade me from having milk and chocolate cake. Interestingly, the japanese side of my family drinks a fair amount of milk and no one seems to have any real discomfort.

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Rekna

I love finding 5 year old posts via Google on accident! Anyway I drink about 3 gallons of 2% a week. Have any of you other milk drinkers died from it yet?

Leto

Not yet. What about chocolate bars made from milk (milk chocolate) ? Nothing like the jersey milk chocolate Pal-O-Mine bar made by Ganong the first (1910) marketed, wrapped chocolate bar:




PAL-O-MINE BARS - Moncton Buy & Sell Goods - Kijiji Moncton

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Cynosure

How does it make sense to eat something that is meant to become a baby chicken, i.e. eggs? How does it make sense to eat something that is meant to provide manipulation and locomotion for an animal, i.e. meat? How does it make sense to eat something that is meant as a vessel for seeds for propagating a plant, i.e. fruit?