Strange Famous

I was interested from another topic that mentioned this - what the views were of a broad collection of mostly American people - in regards to the moral acceptability of talking to the police.

Say for a scenario - something quite permissable. You witness a guy you know from around breaking into one of your neighbours houses to rob them. The neighbour isnt in... so no violence - just a crime against property.

Then two police knock on your door the next to day to say there has been a robbery... 20K stolen... what would you do? Give information to the police right out? Give an anon tip off to the police? Or say nothing to them?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

No friend of mine robs innocent people. My loyalty is earned through honorable behavior, not through cowardly acts. I'll tell the cops and testify at the trial.

Push-Pull

Hell, I wouldn't wait to tell the cops. I'd probably try to catch the bastard and turn him in. At very least ensure that I could identify him later if necessary.

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"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

snowy

When I lived in another house in this city, the police showed up asking about a burglary next door. Mostly they were interested in knowing if we had seen anything, and giving us a warning to lock our doors and windows in case the burglar decided to revisit our neighborhood. We didn't have any information to give them, but if we had had any, I wouldn't have hesitated to give it to them.

Burglary is a much different issue than, say, minors drinking, which is another thing we deal a lot with in this community. I've had the police come to my own house while parties with minors were in progress. Usually I try to intercept them before they step on to my property and deal with whatever their issue for showing up is--typically a noise violation. In that case, I'm obviously not interested in incriminating myself or my friends. Furthermore, if I knew my neighbor was enjoying the reefer in the comforts of his own home, I wouldn't be calling the police up with that information or answering questions from the police about that topic. To me, that's not a crime.

Clearly, however, the example of the OP IS a crime, and should be dealt with accordingly.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

ziadel

I'd tell the cops. 20k is not like somebody lifting a loaf of bread. But I have very specific rules for dealing with cops.

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Cynthetiq

permissable, does that mean to you "acceptable"? or does it mean "possible"

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Strange Famous

I meant it in the sense of being acceptable - in as far as crimes go.

I dont think that robbing people is morally a good thing - but in terms of various crimes I could use as an example: if you say someone molesting a young kid or murdering a child or a woman is at the scale of the worst - simple robbery without any violence is at the other end.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Willravel

Well if it's robbery, I just call the cops. If it's molestation, I get my bat and walk over.

ubertuber

I hope my neighbors feel differently.

__________________
Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Strange Famous

natural justice is certainly a possibility.

But if someone is already in custody, and your testimony would be an influancing factor... I think there would be a strong argument then that you should co-operate with the police, even if you had a personal code of honour that did not include that.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Cynthetiq

agreed.

I don't find many crimes acceptable.

I recall you find it acceptable to be "mugged" so long as there isn't any physical harm. I find emotional harm to be equally unacceptable since it persists long after the physical crime.

I still think of the time I was 16 and held up at gunpoint. Was I physically hurt? No, but I have been emotionally damaged to some degree since I still recall that traumatic moment. My employers even thought it emotionally traumatic enough to give me several days off paid.

I'm no snitch meaning I'm not going to complain about you living next to me being a pot smoker or heroine addict. I will however start to complain if unsavory types seem to come in and out at all hours of the day and night.

But I have spoken to police on occassion when people were smoking pot and shooting up at Venice Beach, CA right in the middle of the boardwalk. It is completely inappropriate behavior for the location. I didn't go out of my way, nor would I. They just happened to be walking next to me patrolling. I stopped to let them know of something going on.

So if you are dealing drugs in a neighborhood visibly, standing on the corner, I'm probably going to call the cops on you. Doing it descreetly from your home? Maybe not so much, again, it will depend on how much you impinge on the quality of life that my living space/building requires.

But when cops inquire about what you are doing, coming and going. I'm pretty much going to tell them what I've observed based on how I am asked. If the officer is a dick to me, probably not going to tell him anything.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I wouldn't rat on a friend if he popped a guy in the face to prevent him from hurting someone, even though it could be assault. I've heard the stories about criminals suing when they get hurt mid-crime. I'll have no part of that dishonorable twisting of the justice system.

Midnight

The cops wouldn't have been knocking at my door the next day. I would have been on the phone with the cops while he was still in that house.

I don't care who it is. knowing them or not does not make committing a crime right. We have laws for a reason.

And a friend of mine you say? my friends wouldn't do this. Desperation or otherwise. Sorry.. my friends know right from wrong. and there aren't "permissable crimes" Crime is crime. period. You don't obey the laws, you get punished. you don't like the laws, you run for office and try to change them. You need money, you work for it or you ask to borrow it.

warrrreagl

Broken window analogy - you let crime go on without reporting it or fixing it and you invite more crime.

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Living is easy with eyes closed.

shakran

you should have called when you saw it, otherwise they could charge you with accessory.

You should certainly give up the info when the cop asks for it, because otherwise you can be charged with obstruction.

filtherton

It really depends on the circumstances. The police aren't necessarily the "right" answer in all situations involving crimes. I think it depends on seriousness, and the likelihood that police involvement will just make things worse.

In the case in the op, i would like to think i would help the police if it came down to it, but it would also depend on how far i would have to stick my neck, and/or the necks of my family out in the process. If i saw it happening i would probably call the cops.

Snitching should be carried out with discretion.

Push-Pull

It's interesting that calling the cops is "sticking your neck out" and "snitching". I understand that in certain areas, this action could bring about retribution to you and yours, but isn't the act of calling the cops just one way of thwarting crime in your area? I don't think it's much more different than asking someone to move along or even picking up a weapon and showing the perps that their behavior is not welcomed by your community. No matter how it's handled, it's showing them that their activities are not tolerated, and don't do them here.

That being said, if I see someone doing something illegal that isn't harming anyone, I generally ask them to move along. They don't get asked a second time, I just call in the cops.

__________________
"No laws, no matter how rigidly enforced, can protect a person from their own stupidity." -Me-

"Some people are like Slinkies..... They are not really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down a flight of stairs." -Unknown-

DAMMIT! -Jack Bauer-

mixedmedia

I wouldn't lie to the cops to defend someone who robbed my neighbor under any circumstances. I can't imagine why I would want to sacrifice my own honesty to defend someone's lame-ass crime.

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roachboy

ok so i will from time to time indulge the ganga, and that's illegal.
but i think the law in an ass and would not rat out anyone involved with it.

on the other hand, i think that people who drive cars while talking on their cellphones are a menace and would definitely and without hesitation pile on evidence to a cop were some situation (cant really see what that would be) arise in which it was relevant.

burglary is trickier--i dont condone it.
i dont like the police---o i know, individual cops are as variable as human beings as any other large population, so it isnt about that--i see them as potentially agents of state repression. but burglary--that involves violation of community, of community norms. so balancing one against the other, i might well talk to the cops. if i knew the person to did the burglary, i would maybe be conflicted about it for a minute.

at another end of things, i have seen cops beating up people--including some friends--in the context of political demos and as a result of that am really really not a fan in general. in that sort of context, the police are the enemy. pure and simple.

which i guess means that i have a self-serving instrumentalized relation to these agents of state power.
which makes me like any other bourgeois type.
so be it, i guess.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

FoolThemAll

Legally, there aren't any 'permissible' crimes, but I'd label a neighbor privately smoking pot as a 'morally permissible' crime. I wouldn't feel any moral obligation to say anything to any officer of the law about such a crime, even if subpoenaed. And if my knowledge of such crime wasn't a result of any inconsiderate behavior on the part of the accused, then I'd even consider it a moral duty NOT to assist in the prosecution. If s/he doesn't deserve punishment, then I shouldn't help deliver the punishment.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Strange Famous

Im not gonna diss anyone for their views... but I wonder how many people (just in general) who would call the police in this situation, but would also buy a DVD recorder third of retail price of a bloke from the pub...

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

FoolThemAll

I bought some used cassette tapes off a guy who 'needed bus money' once... but that has more to do with my naivete than with my inconsistencies.

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I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Ilow

It has always been fascinating to me that you can generally find the "No Snitching" and "If you see the Police, Warna Brother" t-shirts in the places that have the most elevated levels of crime. They should also have a "No Bitching--that the city government doesn't care about you" t-shirts as well.

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"Religion is the one area of our discourse in which it is considered noble to pretend to be certain about things no human being could possibly be certain about"
--Sam Harris

Strange Famous

I think I personally agree with roach. I know some police as people (two people who used to work at my place, and one I went to school with) and I liked them all as people - but in a general sense I do see police as my enemy and as being an enemy of society: that is being the armed forces of the state and capital against the people.

And I appreciate, if you join the military, for whatever reason - your job is to obey orders whatever you feel about it... but as a corporation I see police as a force who exists to, yes, maintain basic security in area's where it is necessary for business to carry on working for that be in place, but basically a force of violence on the side of exploitation.

I am not a thief, but to me talking to police is ingrained in me as something I dont do, to the point it isnt even rational. Like at school.. you dont talk to teachers. I was never really bullied at school, but there were times when I was picked on unfairly, and I always handled that myself - and Im not a hard man and Im not saying I won every fight Ive ever been in or anything - but if someone violates me in any way I would deal with them personally before I would snitch or grass. And that feeling just got stronger for me as I got older and into the real world.

And I extend that now, that I just will stay out of things that dont involve me, and handle my own shit. The same as at school - if someone is being bullied and I feel its out of order I might get involved and I might not - it depends on a lot of things.

There is stuff - and I say again that I count rape, child abuse, and violent attacks or murder of a woman as the worst things - that I would put aside any other moral objection I had with regard to. In each of these cases, natural justice may be a better way of dealing with things - such as if a girl is raped, and the brother of the girl kills the rapist - OBV no one is gonna care that much the rapist is dead... but the state is the strongest power in any place, and sometimes it requires their power to bring about justice.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

World's King

I don't say anything to cops.

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heavy is the head that wears the crown

Psycho Dad

I wouldn't risk the karma points to watch some douche bag jack my neighbor's shit and do nothing about it. And why the hell anyone would want to view the police investigating a crime as the bad guy is beyond me.

I'm reminded of the Ron White line... "I knew I had the right to remain silent. But I didn't have the ability".

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Don't always trust the opinions of experts.

ubertuber

Talking to the police isn't a question of how you feel about police officers. It's about how you feel about your neighbors.

I you were my neighbor and watched someone rob my house, I would absolutely think of you as partially responsible.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

Elphaba

I can't believe this question was asked, and then taken seriously. I suppose this is further evidence that I am an anachronism within this small world of tfp. Kitty Genovese comes to my mind, but perhaps y'all are to young to remember the shameful behavior of bystanders in that case.

In answer to this question, I would follow the principle of "do unto others" that I try to live by. If that seems to vague to some, I would call the police whether I liked that neighbor or not.

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"You can't ignore politics, no matter how much you'd like to." Molly Ivins - 1944-2007

ubertuber

I know about Kitty Genovese.

I don't think you're that much of an anachronism. Look at the poll results.

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Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

snowy

Anyone who has seen "Boondock Saints" knows who Kitty Genovese is.

And yes, the Golden Rule is a valuable thing to keep in mind here. Would you want your neighbors to call the cops if they saw someone breaking into your house. I sure would.

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If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

waltert

just for reference, I havent bought anything out of the trunk of someone's car.

I've been witness to at least one crime, and stalked the perps to their car to get some unmistakable ID on them, and reported it to the police.

honestly, if it was purely up to me, I would kill a thief without a second thought if the law provided for it.

I have let a thief get away because I chose to do the "right" thing and get the police involved. (loaded AR-15 was in hand and the guy was in sight, so it was not a hypothetical situation)

spindles

I'm amazed there is more than 10% of us who would tell the police nothing. The neighbour has worked hard to buy the things he owns - why should we be happy to let anyone steal it?

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World's King

Mainly because if a friend of mine broke into a house... I more then likely had something to do with it.

__________________
heavy is the head that wears the crown

roachboy

for what it's worth, i was serious about the community norms thing--i would talk to the cops about a burglary--but i know that unless they caught the guy red-handed, it wouldnt matter.
i would talk to them about a car accident, or about some shithead who is driving while talking on their cellphone (as a cyclist, these people seem to me totally irresponsible).

but there are other things i would not talk to them about--and i sure as hell would not co-operate with them concerning ANYTHING political.

btw--i have been burglarized before. i understand the sense of being-violated it entails. when it happened, i talked to the cops and they did not take it seriously. they didnt even pretend that they were. well, maybe they did inwardly, but their incompetence outweighed that.
the break-in happened through a back window and involved using a crowbar to wedge the bars off the window. the cops didnt see it. they didnt see it because they didnt look.

and i never got back my computer and never got back the book manuscript that i had been working on for two fucking years that was on it. or the diskettes on which it was backed up. two fucking years worth of work. gone because i went to dinner on the wrong night. and i am quite sure that the machine ended up in the trash somewhere.

this sort of experience marks you. trust me on this.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Jinn

I would absolutely tell the police. They have arguably one of the most difficult and dangerous jobs in the world, and they don't need more people stonewalling them and refusing to report crimes. They're there for a reason.

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Toaster126

I think this is a little too extreme of a view. Knowing right from wrong doesn't make a desperate person keep to legal means to make ends met. It just makes them feel guilty (probably).

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ItWasMe

If I saw 'a guy that I knew from around' breaking into my neighbor's house, I would call the police. I wouldn't wait for them to come to me. I know some people don't want to get involved for whatever reason, and I wonder if they consider that they might be next on the burglar's list.

After my husband left with the military, someone broke into our house late at night, five minutes after we went to bed. I would hope that if my neighbors saw anything, they would have talked to the police. The police took it seriously and checked out our house while we waited outside. That's what they should have done with RB to make sure the person was not hiding in his house/apartment.

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"Ok, no more truth-or-dare until somebody returns my underwear" ~ George Lopez

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Strange Famous

something to do with Vito Genovese?

I'm sorry, but thats genuinely disturbing.

__

And my house got burgled this year in case anyone thinks I am just naive about it.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

maleficent

Not even a little bit
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese

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highthief

I thnk you have some serious morality and ethics issues if you don't turn in some criminal commiting an offence as serious as burglary - especially one inflicting damage on your own neighbourhood. Or maybe it's a cowardice issue.

Please, don't move to my neighbourhood if you believe in letting crooks fuck your neighbours over.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.