If you are depressed, you are a failure.
 

Depressed people are failures. I apologize for the harsh wording of the thread title, but I feel that is the essence of what follows.

I spent almost an hour writing and rewriting this post for brevity.
PLEASE take the time to read it ALL.

I'll start by elaborating some statements that I think everyone can agree on:

1) Everyone has problems in their life; problems where emotional response is necessary.
2) Emotions can be both positive and negative, dependant on the emotion and the situation.
3) Emotions will effect our well-being (in negative and positive ways, see 2).

If you disagree with me on these basic ideas, it is unlikely that you'll agree with what follows. I'd ask, however, that you post repsonding with why you believe 1, 2, or 3 to be untrue.

If you accept (1) and (3), then you likely accept (4)

4) There are times where emotion must not be allowed to interfere with our well-being.

Again, if you disagree with this statement, please respond with your reason for disagreement. Otherwise, I'm going to assume you made it this far without disagreeing with me. :)

Necessary also are a few caveats:

5) No one is perfect.
6) Everyone will fail to enforce *4* at some point in their life.
7) Everyone has bad days.
8) There are cases of pure chemical depression.

It is with these eight points that I hold a strong conviction:

If you are depressed, you are a failure.

Nothing like kicking a guy while he's down, eh, JinnKai?

I've attempted to reword this statement to be more amiable, but I don't believe I can.

I established (1) and (7) for very important reasons. Everyone has bad days, and everyone has times where being violently emotional is necessary. These are given, and I accept them. However, there are also times when emotion becomes detrimental to our well-being (4). Given the choice to become violently angry at an employer assigning a menial task, most people will chose to subdue their emotion, acknowledging that it is more important to keep their job than chose to be emotional.

{WARNING} I'M ABOUT TO GIVE MY OPINION, AND IT MAY OFFEND. {WARNING}

With understanding that there are legitimate (8)'s out there, most people are not. Anecdotally and experimentally, I can say with a high degree of confidence that most "depressed" people have not been diagnosed as chemically depressed. Those that have been diagnosed as such can accept that the mental techniques described herein may not be applicable.

For the rest of you losers out there, it does.

I've been called arrogant and I've been called condescending, but I've never been called a crybaby. To me, the latter would be far more insulting. Every time I hear someone say that they were unable to complete an assignment because they were "sad," I cringe.

Being "sad" or being "depressed" is an excuse, just like being "drunk." Being drunk, being sad, or being depressed does not mean that you can ignore your responsibilities. I think at some level or another, most people will agree with this.

Unfortunately, there are also people who will accept an excuse like "I was depressed" as a valid reason for failure. I, however, interpret it differently. This means that the person chose to let "depression", "sadness" or "drunkenness" control them. They chose to let an emotion get in the way of something that they knew needed to be done. If you made a mental decision that it was more important to be emotional, please.. say that. Say "I decided that it was more important to me to cry than to get my work done." That's what you're really saying when you say that you're "depressed." Allowing yourself to be "depressed" is convenient, because it lets you ignore the true reason for your failure.

I have the same problem with people who use their parents as a similar excuse. "I'm a failure because my parents were mean to me as a kid." Do you see the link between this and depression? You're letting someone else prevent you from being successful. By making it their fault, you avoid the responsibility of finding the true root of the problem. The true root, in this situation, is being unwiling to become an individual. If you let another person control your success, then you are still dependent on them. In this case, you're being depedent on parents that you've already identified as being "bad."

The list can go on, but if you find yourself blaming your problems on an external source like parents, money, or depression, perhaps you should reconsider the true source of the emotion.

I understand that many of you may feel that your situation is unique, or that I cannot understand your position.

This is a very common defense mechanism -- but I think you'd be hard pressed to say that YOUR situation is that unique. There are hundreds of thousands of people your age who had "bad" parents and who were "depressed" at some point in their life.

I can tell you from personal experience that I was "depressed," and the only thing that got me out of it was knowing that I was the person responsible for my emotions and my actions, and I chose to stop using excuses. I looked into the emotions themselves and determined the true reason; it wasn't that I was "depressed." It was that I thought I was unattractive, I thought no one liked me, and I thought that I would never succeed in life. I've addressed each one of thsoe individually, and it's taken me much further than wallowing in my "depression" ever would have.

I've addressed similar issues in many of my posts, and I continue to do so in hopes that someday, someone out there will read this. And maybe they'll step outside their depression, their self-loathing, their shyness, their hatred for their parents, their anger, their alcoholism, their gambling habit; whatever their mental affliction is. And they'll realize that they CAN control it, if they identify the true source and stop excusing the behavior. I don't know if that'll happen, but I can always try.

Question:
What does it matter to you, if someone else is depressed or not... Why is it any of your business at all? How does someone else's feelings affect you?


Until you've walked a mile or more in someone else's shoes... You absolutely cannot understand anyone's position. You think you might know what's best, but that's on your perception, it's extremely arrogant to think you can dismiss someone else's emptional state without first understanding the individual.

This statement is too broad and overly fatalistic. You make depression sound like a death sentence. I understand your association between depression and weakness, but weakness and failure are not the same thing.

I'll follow up on Mal's question: why are you so bent on making these declarative threads? I am not sure what good it serves anyone other than yourself, to be honest.

If I were you, I'd ask myself why I feel so compelled to make these all-encompassing statements, since many of us seem to see something about you, in your posts, that you don't intend to portray.

The old cliche applies: I don't care what you have to say, unless I know that you care. And frankly, from your threads that start out with posts of this tone, I'm pretty sure you don't care.

Unless you start showing some empathy and/or advanced degrees in psychology, I have zero confidence in your ability to say anything of value about depression.

I think this is the step where your argument runs into trouble. I have been fortunate and not had to deal with depression. However, the word "must" implies to me that you believe that one can always have control over their emotions. I believe that you are an exception in this case.
You acknowledge in this statement that you were not depressed. How can you use that to state that others are not truly depressed?

It sounds good to "not allow" emotions to interefere with one's well-being, but emotions define people. People are not rocks, and emotions are a huge part of being a living, breathing, individual. To cut them off like we are robots is not realistic to me.

I am an extremely positive person, am rarely, if ever, depressed, but I don't think the cure to depression is trying to squelch emotion, but instead partake in practices that re-direct negative vibes/emotions into positive feelings and experiences.

I cannot relate to being depressed, because I make life decisions every day that result in my life being as enjoyable and positive as it can be. This lack of experience regarding depression also makes my opinion invalid, as I can't relate to it at all.

That being said, I've had numerous friends that have been depressed at various points in their life, and the experiences that have led to them improving had nothing to do with shutting off emotion, and everything with seeking out positive experiences and influences on their lives so that they could change positively.

The problem with being arrogant is that it kills an individual's ability to gain self-awareness that he/she holds deeply ignorant opinions, it fills one with such self-importance that he/she feels compelled to share the ignorance with other innocent bystanders, and it pretty much quashes any motivation that the individual might have to do the work necessary to form an opinion based on readily available and verifiable information rather than half-assed notions. This is, of course, imho

It's funny, I agree with almost everything you said, EXCEPT that depression equals failure. That's where your logic doesn't actually follow.

If you're depressed, one possibility is that you're coddling yourself about something. Or that you're using it as an excuse for failing at something or to do something.

I'm deeply disquieted by absolutes like "you are a failure". I've failed at things. I fail plenty. But the minute I AM a failure, that becomes my next excuse for future failures.

I believe that ALL people are whole, complete, and perfect, AND that each of us has barriers to the expression and experience of that wholeness, completeness, and perfection. I'd much rather go to work on those barriers (my own and others') than brand people as "failures" because of the particular barrier they've constructed for themselves.

I'm wondering if you've ever been accused of being a control freak...

based on some of your thread style - -i'd say you qualify as mainly yesses...


Take a deep breath Jinn... Relax...

Again you are trying to assert your control over things you cannot control, your emotions and feelings are just something that exists. You however feel that you can control them and the behaviors of others vis a vie declartive threads denoucing someone's being and right to feel and be the way that they are.

Failure is a subjective term as is success. What is success for you isn't the same as for someone else.

There's something simple that I've learned early on the path that I am now on:
If you spot it, you got it.

LINK
Based on the above Ala-non criteria above I bolded in yellow based on your previous threads and the declaration you've stated that your father is an alcoholic, I'd say you need to talk to someone within the Alanon organization.

The strict codes of conduct on this forum, maintained by our friendly neighbourhood moderators, which keep discussion tolerant and civil, are generally speaking quite admirable and greatly appreciated. However, there are a few rare exceptions in which some threads perhaps deserve a vitriolic, hate filled rant, without the inevitable moderation that would ensue. I feel this is one of those threads.

Despite the generalization, despite the inflamatory title, I think that JinnKai presented his argument in a clear and logical manner.

I agree with Fresnelly response.

I'm terribly dissapointed with most of the responses here. I conceed that I haven't noticed any 'controling' trends in previous threads by the OP. I also fail to see the controlling intent in this one. The original post specifically asked for reponses based on the logic of his arguement, so I'm going off on a tangent by responding to the other responses.

A technique and a logical approach that very well could work to help people deal with depression. Presented in, from my perspective, with altruistic reasons. With clear disclaimers about potentially offending people.

I hate to make unjustified claims because I don't know the backgrounds of the respondants, but from my first reading; I percieved the responses that attack/address the originl poster instead of the original post as the knee-jerk reactions of offended people who have been or are "depressed".

It sounds like you are using this thread as a sounding board for your own mental state. I also have to chime in on the "why are you concerned why others are depressed" sentiment. If you yourself are depressed, seek help. It's out there. John D. Rockefeller, Bill Gates Jr. and Warren Buffet, as well as many, many, many of the worlds pre-eminent scientists, world leaders, sports heroes, artists, fashion designers, chefs, engineers, economists, musicians, and military leaders all have histories of some sort of depression, temporary or long-term. It is simply historically untrue to say that depression = failure.

Everyone has emotions that they struggle with from time to time. This goes for every single solitary individual who has ever walked - or will ever walk -this planet, no matter how high and mighty, or down and out. It's nothing to be ashamed about. Best of luck.

I think that MOST people would agree that antidepressants are over-prescribed. I do believe that depression is on the rise (this is something for another thread though) ... and it's certainly true that there are people who need these drugs because even mild depression can be devastating.

I do agree with you on several points, for instance, depression as an excuse to get out of something is also certainly rampant. I'm guilty of it myself ... as recently as this week I allowed myself to get "down" so that I wouldn't "have" to work on the house for a couple of days.

It was a way for me to offset the guilt I felt for not working on the house. If I was depressed I had an excuse. In reality, I could just as easily said, "Screw it, I'm not swinging a hammer today," but because I have a problems with guilt I CHOSE to use the depression scapegoat.

Of course, I wasn't really depressed because what we are calling depression in this thread is NOT really depression. Depression is a debilitating mental state. "Doldrums"; frustration; fatigue; anger; boredom; feeling overwhelmed etc. are what we're really talking about and I'd say most people who call themselves depressed are really just suffering from these things.

Unfortunately, we've moved along to a point where people aren't taught the skills to cope with the doldrums or whatever. We just go to the Dr. and after a 15-minute evaluation we're put on an SSRI. The word depression has been bandied about for so long and it's been thrown into our faces and etched its way into the American mindset that we just use it to mean anything that deviates from our normal mood.

So to say that depression=failure is unfair at best. Depression is not something that most people can just "snap" out of. Depression, REAL DEPRESSION, will and does interfere with normal life in such a way that a person will fail at almost any task including the task of "not being depressed." I hope to never have to deal with that.

Only the person going through the problem really knows what they are feeling anyway. What might be a slight feeling of sadness to you or me might be the equivalent of debilitating depression to someone else.

Mal:

The connotation of the word 'depression' demonstrates it's undesirablity - no one here could defend depression as a good thing.

Depressive illnesses interfere with normal functioning and cause pain and suffering not only to those who have a disorder, but also to those who care about them.

It's certainly my perception, and I'd never claim otherwise. That's a function of being seperate entities, but it is mutually exclusive from my ability to understand a state of mind and its pathology. Since you've dismissed my position without first understanding me, I think your statement is quite ironic. You seem to claim that if someone had been cheated on, I could not offer them solutions without first being cheated on. That is certainly one way to understand someone's emotional state, but it is not the only way.

Since you've posed a question to me, I'll pose one to you:

If you had personal experience with a situation, had a solution to the problem which could be (and has been) universalized successfully, would you abstain from sharing your solution? How strongly would you have to feel about it before you offered your solution to strangers? Would you ever?

To a stranger? No way. I wouldn't offer it because it's none of my business... Unless someone is asking me for my opinion on something, or presents their situation in such a way that they are looking for feedback, it's not my place to say anything. For a stranger or for even someone I knew...

Unsolicited advice is rarely welcome. If I wanted someone's opinion, I'd ask for it - until that time comes... It's best to keep it to one's self.

Besides, my solution might be good for me... No guarentee it's going to work for someone else...

What if they were so depressed that they wouldn't ever ask for help? They'd never hear it? What if they were reading a web forum? How would you know that they wanted your opinion?

If I changed the topic to If I were depressed, I'd be a failure, I'd likely have much friendlier responses. Likewise, it would not be as effective at making others analyze themselves, rather than me.

I wouldn't and it's not my problem at that point... I cannot control what other people think or what other people do. If I spent all my time thinking about that, then i probably wouldn't get out of bed in the morning. All a person can do is be concerned with their own environment and act on that.

You would be told emphatically that you weren't a failure and ou would be encouraged to see professional help, and as other self pitying style threads have in the past, the thread would probably be closed.


Why is it your business to make others analyze themselves? Who appointed you to this role? All JinnKai can do is worry about JinnKai, other people who have no regular contact wiht him are not his concern.

I'm glad you got over your depression and don't actively consider yourself a failure. The ability to self-actualize (develop or achieve one's potential) is quite a feat, especially if you're going about it alone, and starting out in a less than perfect state of mind (negative thinking, depression).

I will, however, bring to task a few of your points.

That is absolutely correct. Your problem, however, is in turning a rather simple expression into an absolute. Through your words and examples, you assert that ANY time when emotion interferes with well-being is unacceptable. What you leave unaccounted for is that many of the human emotions, specifically some of the "sad" ones, exist to cushion us in times of stress. A prime example is grieving for a loss. Without the emotional reactions that come during these times, a person's brain is burdened tremendously with the weight of the unresolved emotions. There are large bodies of study into people such as hospital workers, emergency medical providers, or military personnel who are trained to "shut off" their emotional responses to the pain, suffering, loss, and death of others. People in these areas, who are specifically "shutting off" their negative emotional reactions so as not to harm their well-being, still go through their own personal emotional healing. Some cry later that day at home, some meditate, other find creative outlets to express their feelings of sadness or shock.

The point of the matter is- those who don't deal with their negative emotions at some point, suffer greatly from the mental burden they leave themselves. They let the harshness of the reality of their job get to them, rather than allowing the natural and necessary process of dealing with them take place. After a while, those who deal with their negative emotional stressors effectively are much less bothered by the same sorts of emotional stressors that others experience, because they're used to dealing with it in a healthy way.


For pretty much most people, depression is a chemical issue. You may be referring to cases where the cause is *purely* chemical, but that still dismisses a very large majority for whom the chemical make-up of their brain is still the root of their ongoing depression. That is why there are so many anti-depression drugs (that, and the pharmaceutical companies like large, steady paychecks). There may be alcohol or drug abuse that helps to fuel it, or it may be real mental trauma such as the death of a loved one, or an unstable/broken family life.

The emotional responses we go through are almost completely controlled by a chemical in the brain called serotonin (this is not serotonin's only job, though). To put it plainly, anti-depression drugs work by blocking the brain's ability to reabsorb the higher levels of serotonin it produces, thereby limiting the emotional responses- your brain chemistry changes so that you no longer have those intense feelings of depression.

Being unable to mentally "will" the chemistry of your brain to change so that your depression goes away hardly makes a person a loser.

If you're trying to bring people out of depression, the "buck up, camper" approach does not work, which is essentially what you're trying to do here.

If your noble goal is to help those afflicted with persistent depression, you need to understand that a negative approach does not work in this case. There are times when the "tough love" system can inspire people to achieve, can drive people to succeed... but not for depression.

Here's the most important bit:

It may have worked for you, so congratulations... but in the process, it seems to have made you feel so worthwhile that you put down those who haven't had your relatively unique success. Indeed, this is like if the world's strongest man lifted 1,000 pounds over his head, put it down, and then started to actively belittle everyone on the planet who couldn't do the same, and called them all pussies and wimps. Most people need help from a couselor of some kind, perhaps some therapy, or even chemical interventions to have a better or normal quality of life.

You may also look into why you're projecting failure on everyone who suffers from the same depression you used to have. Is it possible- just think about it for a little minute- that you're inwardly, secretly fearful that everyone considered you a failure when you were depressed? That your bigger fear is that they still do? Perhaps you've "healed" yourself from your depression, but have yet to shake that feeling of failure that once captivated you? Feeling ashamed of your past, especially a past you feel you've not only overcome, but gloriously triumphed over, is quite normal, but only healthy in small doses. It should only carry so far as to motivate you, never to make you feel bad, or use the stored anger, disappointment, and loathing for yourself to project onto others.

Mull it around a bit and get back to me.

TFP - The Evolution of Humanity, Sexuality, and Philosophy

Bingo. Who are you mad at, Jinn?

I cannot do that.

And neither can good firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, or anyone who wants to love, teach, or protect.

If you notice my board title, you might see a connection.

Jinn, did your father used to call you a loser for showing emotion? Like being upset with him (sad) for drinking?

but the difference is that firemen, police officers, doctors, nurses, ALL have to undergo rigourous training and schooling. They learn intimate knowledge over years and by exposure to many many cases.

In my opinion your lofty, arrogant, holier than thou, I'm better than attitude doesn't stand up to real experience, schooling, and training. While you and I may want to armchair quarterback what we think someone should do, it's based on guess more than anything since we are not qualified to make such statement of facts.

Just because you wish it doesn't mean that it is so.

I've posed some very succint behaviors that you exhibit based on your stating your father was an alcoholic and that you show behavioral traits that all families and friends of alcoholics show.

If I state that Children of Alcholic Parents are losers in the same manner that you stated your depression dissertation, does that make you more inclined or less inclined to self examine yourself? Or does the presentation put you into a defensive position instead of introspective?

TFP is about evolution of humanity, blah blah blah... it's not about one person telling someone else, when not asked for, what's they should be doing. In my mind, it's about evolution of one's self... and change in one's self, not trying to force change down the throat of someone else.

People should analyze themselves because they want to, it's not up to someone else to do it for them.

I'm gonna go back to that quote...

Anyone who's been keeping up with Cynthetiq's journal of late, knows that statement is totally untrue..Cyn's journal is all about his self analysis, and it's painful to read sometimes, but it's extraordinarily educational because a lot of what he's going thru on his journey, I can see in myself... I know I'm not the only one who feels that way as well.. His self analysis is way more effective and more interesting and more educational that having someone's ideas of what they think someone else should be doing pushed upon them... self honesty counts more than you will ever realize.

During my last thread, I recieved a lot of feedback (PMs and otherwise) that my threads often derailed because I went back and addressed personal attacks rather than continuing with the purpose of the thread.

While I recognize and appreciate your desire to discover where the ideas I possess COME FROM, it has an undesirable effect on threads in which it occurs. Hopefully I will be able to respond to this while simultaneously supporting the idea that those who perpetuate a depressive state are in fact, failures.

NEGATIVE REINFORCEMENT

In response to your question, IF I associated myself with that group I would ACTUALLY be much more likely to analyze myself if you called me a "loser" that if you had not. I personally respond better to negative reinforcement than positive reinforcement, as do many people. In the case of positive reinforcement, people recieve support and therapy in the form of consoling -- "You can get over this, you're strong.." or "it's not so bad." This has absolutely no effect on me, and makes me just as unresponsive as you claim to be to this thread. Negative reinforcement, on the other hand, works well (for me).

The "suck it up, bucko" effect works for those strengthened by negative reinforcement. In their case, they were ignoring the negative consquence on their health and well-being until someone pointed it out. In this case, I called them a failure. It worked for me, it worked for my girlfriend. It worked for my roommate. It's worked for quite a few people - those strengthened by demonstrations of the flaws, rather than false praise. Someone telling me that "You will get through it" does nothing for me, whereas something like "Can you really handle this task?" does. Both are accepted methods of conditioning.

The other difference between what these people do and what your essay posted above is about is the negativity. What teacher, doctor, "anyone who wants to love, teach or protect" calls their students <b>failures</b>(I'll leave off firefighters and police officers)?

Name-calling and belittling a person is possibly the WORST thing you can do for them. To teach someone something you have to first earn their respect ... EARN. You don't do that by calling them a failure.

If I knew you a little better I might be persuaded to think that you have a touch of megalomania ... http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/index.html ... but I don't know you that well (or at all for that matter). I only have your many, many posts on TFP to base that judgement. But there it is.

So you're stating that masochistic depressed people are those that you are targeting with your inflammatory titles? Those that would not be enticed by "Depressed and why?" or "Depression stop using it as a scapegoat."

The idea that you can catch more ants with sugar than with vinegar seems to apply here.

No, actually, you're confusing a few concepts and oversimplifying here.

1. "Suck it up, bucko" works for those who just need a little reality check. I doubt that would work on anyone with actual, serious depression. If I'm depressed, and you tell me to suck it up, I'm liable to punch you.

2. "Can you really handle this task?" isn't negative reinforcement. It's reverse psychology. And if said to a honestly depressed person, it will probably send them deeper into a depression.

3. No, saying "can you really handle this task?" isn't an ACCEPTED method of conditioning. I doubt anyone but you would recommend it.

Based on your OP and subsequent statements, I have to say that I doubt you've ever dealt with a real depressed person. You, your girlfriend, and your roommate were probably having bad days, or were in a funk. Mind you, I'm not them and cannot presume to know how they feel, but if they're saying "oh, you're right, I'm being an idiot to be depressed, all better!" I can't think it was that serious to begin with.

There's a distinct difference between melodrama queens and people who are having a bad week and people who are actually depressed clinically. You don't just get over clinical depression. You CAN get over being a melodrama queen (at least I hope so).

JinnKai, I've read and reread your post and I'm still stuck wonder why I should care what you think of depression. Sure, your manifesto is interesting, but I don't see where it as any real world application unless you're aggitating for a curtailing of compassion.

Personally, I think that #8 of your mantra is a far more common occurrence than you are giving credit for, but that's me. I also don't see how you can equate depression and failure. I am, by most definitions, financially successful in an industry where success and failure happen at astonishing speeds. Yesterday, I lost one of my largest accounts that accounted for roughly $100,000 in revenue, and I suppose that I spent most of yesterday fitting your definition of depressed, albeit for a very good reason. Does that mean that I am now a failure because I lost that one account. Well, the $50,000 new business revenue account that I booked an hour ago would argue differently even though the first account still sticks in my craw for a number of reasons, and I could still be considered depressed because of it. I've done nothing today (other than answer the phone to take orders) but bitch to my assistants about that lost account. So, am I now a failure even though I'm still up 15% over last year even with losing the big fish?

I'm sure you'll have a very different answer than I do.

You know, Jinn, firemen, police officers, doctors, and nurses want to love, teach, and protect. But they did not simply up and decide one day, "Well, I want to love, teach, and protect everyone, so let's do it!" then jump on board a vehicle with a siren and ask everyone, "Hey guys, mind if I join the team?"

Nope. They had the desire, and then they humbled themselves to LEARN from those who knew more than they did. That means they spent a *great* deal of time in schooling or training of some kind, put thousands of hours of experience under their belt, got a *professional certification,* and then were accepted by society in the role of loving, teaching, and protecting.

They did not simply walk on stage and demand that everyone accept them as being valid lovers, teachers, and protectors. Which is essentially what I see your "board title" as being. It's self-appointed. Who asked you?

You also have not addressed my statement that if you had exhibited some regular degree of empathy with these purported "needy" people that you want to help (e.g. post on some frickin' journals that you understand what people are going through instead of whacking them with a 2-by-4 in a major thread topic, maybe), or if you had professional degrees/certification AND experience outside of yourself, your girlfriend, and your roommate, maybe some of us would take you more seriously.

Dividing the world into black and white when it is really full of shades of gray does us no good at all, especially when people are not black and white but shades of gray themselves. We are far too complicated as beings to be polarized in this manner, and the same applies to the disorder which you are attempting to address.

Oversimplification of a vastly complicated problem is dangerous.

Since so many object to "failure," how do you define "success" ? Is being in a depressive state "success"? If you say success is 100% and failure is 0%, where does depression fall? I fail to see how anyone who is depressed can be said to be succeeding in the slightest bit. The only way I can see something less than 0% is by acknowledging they are depressed and working to avoid remaining a failure.

You're failure ONLY if you let depression prevent you from FURTHER succeeding, or you use "depression" as an excuse for being a failure, like the OP clearly stated.

Depression isn't failure or success. That's like saying Oxygen - Fruit or Vegetable?

It's a state of mind that isn't related to success or failure. There are very successful people who suffer from depression and very unsuccessful people who suffer from depression. The same can be said for unsuccessful people who are happy and vice versa.

Well, that's your "failure" then, isn't it... better try another point of view that might give you more success in empathizing with others.

Precisely. I was incredibly successful in my college career. I made honor roll several times while suffering from depression.

Failure? I think not.

The problem with this argument is simple - it enforces a standard. As much as people all try to be the same, society thrives on the dispersion of mentalities. Simply put; we need everyone - even those who are prone to depression. Try riding on a lopsided tire... doesn't work.

I don't think you know what depression actually is Jinn. I don't think that anyone who has actually been seriously depressed would believe that the cure for depression is simply "looking on the bright side" or "bucking up". Try telling someone with bipolar disorder to just "buck up" or "relax" and see how useful that little bit of advice is.

Also, failure and success are both subjective terms. You shouldn't be surprised if people don't happen to accept your definitions for them.

I have a question about this statement. Most companies will give their workers time off work in order to deal with the sadness/depression associated with the death of a spouse or child. In other words, these companies agree when the workers say it was more important to cry than to do work. Does this mean that employers are allowing, and even encouraging, their employees to fail? What kind of self-respecting company would do such a thing?




Just because a person hasn't been diagnosed as chemically depressed doesn't mean that they aren't. There are a lot of people out there who are depressed who haven't gone to see a doctor about it, because they think it'll go away on its own or because they can't afford to or because they haven't recognized the symptoms of depression in themselves. By your logic, one of these people is depressed and therefore a failure, yet is suddenly transformed into a non-failure the second a psychologist/psychiatrist utters the magic words "chemically depressed". Does that then imply that mental health professionals have the right/ability to determine who is and isn't a failure? If you think you're a failure, all you have to do is go to enough doctors until you find one who'll tell you there's a chemical basis to it, and then suddenly it's ok to fail, it's not your fault anymore?

I have read through this thread and am at a loss for words on what to say. The mind boggles...what is the point of this thread? To put down people who have depression? To tell the world that you cannot abide depressed people? I'm not sure.

All I have to say is this...it never ceases to amaze, amuse and sadden me that people like you, JinnKai, still find it intensely important to give everything a name and put it in a little box, metaphorically speaking. The world is not black and white, as other posters have said. Diversity is a good thing and not everything has a reason or a logic, in fact most things don't, it just comforts us to think that they do. Accepting this to some degree is a key to feeling more at peace with yourself and the world.

I also find it strange that I never recall you conceding to anyone else's point of view in any of your threads. Feel free to prove me wrong and nitpick. But this is what I'm feeling with most of what you post.

I read the OP very carefully before I posted, but I still don't understand why you are singling out depression for condemnation. From your argument, ANY excuse used for failure is unacceptable.

In my case, I basically pissed away today bitching and moaning about one single account, albeit a very big account. I was not successful today, and I'm man enough to admit its because I was upset about yesterday's turn of events. However, financially I was a big success because I wrote another large deal today - the groundwork for that was laid months ago and we executed on our plan last week with today's order being a simple formality. I was depressed yet I was successful. Today was a failure but a success.

My point is that you are oversimplifying this issue to an amazing extent. The reverse of your argument should be true - happiness breeds success. That could not be farther from the truth in the real world. I know lots of unsuccessful happy people.

Jinkai- The title of your post is to much of a blanket statement, which confuses correlation with causation. It suggests that depression always causes failure, when in actuality, someones depressive state MAY cause failure, but not always. Perhaps you should edit the title to something like-You are a failure if you continually allow depression to negatively impact your life- thats a bit long, but I hope you get my meaning.

I was thinking about this and thought this would be a useful thing to post.

Here is a list of people who have had depression and/or bipolar disorder, those big failures:

Marlon Brando
Winston Churchill
Kurt Cobain
Harrison Ford
Judy Garland
Ernest Hemingway
John Lennon
Claude Monet
Jackson Pollock
Mark Rothko
Toulouse Lautrec
Alexander The Great
Hans Christian Andersen
Samuel Barber
Samuel Becket
Beethoven
Irving Berlin
William Blake
Napoleon Bonaparte
Albert Camus
Frederic Chopin
Eric Clapton
Leonard Cohen
Natalie Cole
Francis Ford Coppola
Noel Coward
Charles Darwin
Emily Dickinson
Dostoevski
Richard Dreyfuss
Thomas Edison
T.S. Eliot
William Faulkner
Michel Foucault
Sigmund Freud
Paul Gauguin
Johann Goethe
Arshile Gorky
Francisco de Goya
Handel
Stephen Hawking
Audrey Hepburn
Herman Hesse
Victor Hugo
Howard Hughes
Sir Anthony Hopkins
Edward Hopper
Henrich Ibsen
Billy Joel
Elton John
Franz Kafka
John Keats
Ernst Ludwig Kirchner
Vivian Leigh
Abraham Licoln
Greg Louganis
Martin Luther King
Gustav Mahler
Michelangelo
Sir Isaac Newton
Florence Nightingale
Nijinsky
Georgia O'Keefe
Laurence Olivier
Sylvia Plath
Edgar Allen Poe
Cole Porter
Lou Reed
Rilke
John Ruskin
Charles Schulz
Shostakovich
Sting
James Taylor
Dylan Thomas
Mark Twain
Vincent Van Gogh
Walt Whitman

I only hope to be as big a failure during my life as them. Especially some of the artists. And if you don't know all the people on this list Jinn, I suggest you go educate yourself first before you self-appoint yourself a teacher.

It's hard to say that depression is failure, outright and so broadly.

But I think what you're actually trying to say is that people who use depression as an excuse for their lives or their responsibilities annoys you, and I entirely agree on that point.

It's grotesquely sickening to hear people whine and cry about being depressed and yet not doing anything about it besides, well, whining and crying. (Granted, whining etc. is useful when you're talking to the appropriate party, but I'm referring to people whose depression isn't much of my business.) (Yes yes, maybe they're reaching out to me, which is why I've never been rude to an individual like that, but suggested they seek help.)

And little tippler, depression is hugely different than bipolar disorder. It's entirely incorrect to simply group them together.

I've been pondering this since I read it yesterday and finally feel it's time to put in my thoughts.

Depression runs in my family. My sister and mother have both been diagnosed as clinically depressed; my brother never was. He was chronically depressed before he developed schizophrenia though.

My brother was an incredibly intelligent guy and was good at anything he tried. He was a self taught guitar player who was good enough to make it big if he'd had the chance. He didn't get good grades...but it was because he didnt care about them. He could have graduated with a 4.0 if he'd wanted to. At the time of his graduation, he had taken and passed more AP tests than anyone in the history of the school. He was an awesome athelete and excelled in basketball and tennis. He kicked ass at chess and took first place in several state tournaments.

He was never diagnosed as having clinical depression. The only mental illness he was diagnosed with was schizophrenia...which was after he had accomplished everything I listed. Like applesauce noted...does that make him a failure? Hell no. He would go through periods of major self doubt that would coincide with depressive episodes...but he was NEVER a failure.

I totally see where you are comming from JinnKai. I too have to deal with people who are un-motivated. Sometimes the best I can do is let them go. However, I've been there just as you have. I was never depressed but there was a point in my life where I lacked willpower and vision. Everyone has their time.

Your post is great but how does it help people? Obviously you can't go up to a depressed person and say "you are a failure, become responcible for your actions" and have it be all better. I am sure you are aware of negative re-enforncement; where people become entrenched in their poor values and beliefs because everyone confirms it for them.

It's intresting that you've mentioned alcohol because emotions are very much like a drug. It's been shown that people become dependant on them. Especially negative ones.

Personally I think people are much more motivated by carrot then by stick. I would love to hear about how you overcame your depression. What triggered the change, how long it took, what books are worth reading and what challenges you faced allong the way? Yes, that would be something.

Best of luck with these people who you care for.

Cheers.

JinnKai, put this in a drawer and revisit it in five years, then take it out and look at it. I guarantee that you'll disagree with much of it.

Am I being condescending? A little. But the more experience you have, the more you understand that one blanket statement of philosophy (even one that took a whole hour to write) cannot possibly fit all instances of a condition so varied and poorly understood as depression.

I am a failure, then, I guess.

I became very depressed after years of working with kids who were severely abused, abusing drugs and/or dying from a chronic illness. I was stalked, dumped, and had extremely unhealthy friendships. Also during this time frame, I completed my master's degree with a 3.8, created a name for myself in the community in my field, and changed lives of these kids in a positive manner. I joined a gym, lost 95 lbs (healthily), and got rid of toxic people in my life. And I cried myself to sleep every night, had a brain full of negative self-talk, and nightmares that made it almost impossible to sleep. I started medication, and I don't care what others think of using that as a tool. My med never changed the way I do my job or how motivated I am. It made the negative self-talk easier to deal with and slowed down a lot of my thought processes so that I could focus on what was important. I still cry, I still have nightmares... just not as much. And I still kick ass at what I do.

What bothers me as much as being referred to as a "loser", is the loose definition of depression in the OP. In my training, I was taught that chemicals in the brain affect mood and mood affects the chemicals. So how is it exactly that anyone who is depressed is not "chemically depressed"? I've never even heard of this diagnosis and I've been in the field almost 10 years. Clinical depression, yes. I've never met someone who was truly clinically depressed who was successfully able to just "decide" that they aren't going to be depressed anymore. But I've met gamblers, alcoholics and drug users that decided they weren't going to engage in their addiction... and don't. It's so frustrating that I have difficulty in actually forming response that makes as much sense as I'd like it to. But blanket statements, especially about human beings, human nature, and mental illness never hold up 100%.
I did have to laugh at this because the three most common responses I've experienced to this type of "therapy" are: "what the F*** do you know about how I feel?!", tears and suicidal statements, and chairs flying... at my head, the window and a door, during a family session.
Both are already grouped together in the DSM. 296.xx family of mood disorders. Bipolar disorder (depending on the subtype) requires certain amount/frequency of major depressive episodes.

And as someone who has seen both first-hand, some of the scariest parts of bipolar disorder are those depressive episodes. It's like clinical depression on steroids. Both are scary and debilitating, and depending on the cycling of the person with bipolar disorder, it can end up being almost constantly like clinical depression on steroids.

Manic episodes aren't pleasant either, and I wouldn't wish either of these disorders on my worst enemy.

Emotions are us. To forcefully ignore them is to ignore growth.

Extremes will always be extreme and basing any philosophy on such will be extreme.

I would like to reword it so that it's much less harsh:

<b>If you are depressed <i>are you a failure</i>?</b>

I thought about this over night. It is certainly a valid argument but could be tempered quite a bit.

Doug

You said it. It is an illness, pure and simple. Saying you are a failure is the same as saying someone with cancer is a failure as that disease causes all the same problems for everyone - even more sometimes.

JinnKai...you must have been trying to get something going because you can't possible believe what you said. If you do, you need to speak with someone to help you understand. And I am very aware of this illness with a wife and brother-in-law as shrinks.

I think that is completely wrong.

As far as the OP goes, it fails in some areas that others have mentioned, but the premise that a vast majority of people are responsible for their own unhappiness is true. It takes balls to say that, especially on a forum like this with some professional whiners and complainers. I respect that a lot.

That being said, one can be candid and take a stand without being an asshole and alienating themselves from those they wish to address. If you push all the buttons at the same time, people who have some investment in what you are trying to discuss as wrong won't discuss the OP, they will start arguing with you (especially if what you are saying verges on hypocrisy) and turning the focus in a different direction. And yes, there is a difference.

I'm not sure if some people need some perspective or just someone giving them some tough love, but seriously, some people just need to shut the fuck up about their "problems" and actually go do something about them.

Like all advice, that feedback probably isn't meant to apply in all situations equally, or with no regard to the amount of gibberish or anguish-induced nonsense you are able to come up with. I hardly think that that feedback applies here because this isn't a discussion topic; it's almost a cry for help. Many people in here have already addressed the things I wanted to say, so I'll just refer to the many posts above mine that point out the glaring evidence of your being a control freak and the high likelihood that you have truckloads of issues to deal with concerning your alcoholic father. This thread isn't the means to do it, I assure you.

Before you dismiss this as a personal attack, remember that I could have just called you a douchebag if I had wanted to do that. I feel (and more importantly, THINK) this very strongly. Sometimes when I read your threads, I feel like huge important chunks of my soul have died... part of me clings to the hope that you are really some cruel and brilliant mastermind who likes to say absurd things just to get out his jollies, but I know that this is too much to hope. :(

If the How to overcome shyness and low self esteem? thread was titled If you are shy or have low self esteem, you're a loser. it would get this same kind of response which is what my point of stating what is JinnKai's reasons for the vitrolic thread titles. He spent so much time crafting the body, but little time with the title which is what colors and flavors the OP like an appetizer to an entree. It either compliments or it juxtapositions. Sometimes the juxtaposition makes for an interesting combination, but when it's something that alienates instead of unites, then it does disservice to the thread reader and the community at large.

I'd also like to add that your sig "If you struggle with something all your life you ARE NOT TRYING HARD ENOUGH." also shows this same lack of simple logic.

If I try to run a sub 4 minute mile and cannot just because I have never been able to and I exert every muscle that I can and do everything that I can, my ASTHMA can stop me from doing it at all. It doesn't mean anything less than it being impossible for me to expect to achieve that NO MATTER HOW HARD I TRY.

EDIT: Heh, it suddenly occured to me I was putting out a fire with a gallon of gasoline.

I am curious as to why you feel so. Do you honestly think that any one person can completely comprehend another's emotions, thoughts, and motivations based on some superficial observations? By the way, I would opine that unless you are EXTREMELY close to the person in question, all of your observations are superficial.

I too used to think as you do Toaster (and JinnKai). I was smart, successful, and generally kicking ass in my daily life. I thought, jesus, these whiners should stop their fucking crying and man up. Then a number of events, combined with a genetic predisposition, conspired to depress the hell out of me. I tried to bring my old, arrogant way of thinking to what I was facing. It did not work. I became suicidal at one point, and am only here due to some wonderful friends.

I think the main issue I have with this thread is this very point. People who are riding the high wave of success and pride truly cannot understand what it is that people with depression go through. It is not a mild feeling of laziness and semi-sadness that one can shake off by just telling oneself to buck up. It is a deep, deep underlying feeling that pervades your every waking thought and action. You can feel it physically; it wraps itself around your innards and seems to be choking the life out of you in every waking moment. Life becomes a hollow husk of what it once was. Your mental processes are completely warped to the point that death really does look like the best option. This feeling continues from day to day, week to week, month to month, year to year.

It does not matter what you are doing or what you are accomplishing in your daily life once the depression is in full swing. The depression abides. It whispers to you at your greatest moments, "This will not last. You are worthless." One can only recover from true depression through a combination of mental willpower (yes, I will grant you that a person has to WANT to recover from depression to do so... but one who is truly suffering from depression as I have known it, who would rather die than feel the way they do every waking moment, will not quibble this point), strong emotional support, and in some cases, professional help, which may include medication.

In short, depression is not something that can be wished away. This may be hard to understand if you have not experienced this soul-sucking feeling, and I sincerely hope that those of you have not felt like this do not. All the same, you'd have to walk a mile in my shoes to get me to listen to your half-cocked opinion on the matter.

I really hope you aren't now trying to talk about my life experiences.

If you don't want my opinion, don't read my posts.

Obviously I was not trying to talk about your life experiences, given that you haven't said anything personal in this thread. I am talking about something called empathy, rather than blithe dismissal.

I did ask a question though, in my opening few sentences, which I am still curious to hear your answer to.

And I prefer to read all opinions and thoughts, no matter how much I agree or disagree with them. I do not seek ignorance.

EDIT: Perhaps I should have said, "agree with" rather than "listen to" in my first post in this thread, if that clears things up.

What's to say? I believe people can understand without personal experience.

I agree with this statement.

In fact, although perhaps this is due to my age/inexperience, I would even venture to say that it may even be easier to understand - intellectually - without personal experience.

However, I think what what many people mean when they say this isn't necessarily understand, but empathize.

I believe that it understanding a person is far easier to do when you are a third party, unaffected by that person's daily life or emotions. If this weren't the case, I can't imagine going to therapy would be much help to anyone.

I'll agree with the Original Poster to some extent - not the broad generalizations that depressed people are losers - but the underlying sentiment that many people constantly find factors to blame their behavior on, whether it be depression, peer pressure, alchohol, or other drugs.

Granted, I have never personally experienced depression - at least to my knowledge - but I really don't think that you can summarily say that depressed people are losers and failures, at least not without getting much more specific as to the criteria. I could agree with the sentiment that depressed people fail at being happy, but that's rather obvious, wouldn't you say? To say that they fail at life - well, that's just so ridiculous I won't even begin to get more indepth than to say how rather blatently false that is.

On a side note, JinnKai, I imagine that you've been around on the TFP long enough to know that there are a number of people that frequent this forum that are depressed.

Don't you think that saying things like


is a bit like telling someone who is suicidal that the world would be better off without them and handing them a razor blade and a bottle of sleeping pills?

I'm glad you got out of your depression and all, but perhaps jumping to meglomaniac pseudo-intellectual wasn't all that much of an improvement.

I don't really see where "Lover - Protector - Teacher" comes into play at all in this thread - I've never heard of a lover, protector, or a teacher call someone a failure and a loser and have that same person be even remotely interested in what else you would have to say....

I believe that as well. One can easily identify how they understand. They can see how things can or cannot fit into the world that they live within in comparison.

However they can only identify or empathise to an exact finite point, a person who has had a similar or same experience can go even further.

This is easily exampled in education from sciences to math, language to history. The experience you have yields at some point and past that one can only comprehend to point. It's beyond that point that it's conjecture rather than fact.

What is truly unacceptable is to make judgement.

edit: Even better example those that have no kids telling those that have kids how to or what can help them. I can only give some understanding of what I see and experience since I have no children of my own. While I care for my nephew for 1-2 hours when I visit him once or twice a year, that's the finite point of my experience.

Those who have children in their care for a short period of time such as day care workers or teachers have a more insight. But since they don't have the full emotional bond and responsibility of a child 24/7, they hit a wall at some point.

Only another parent can fully understand truly what the frustrations and solutions are, but they still have no place judging another parent, because ultimately they don't have all 100% of the information for that situation.

Actually, I don't think that is true either. I think it's perfectly fine to make judgements. One just has to be aware that they can be wrong and allow for that possibility.

man I'm not going to touch this thread with a 10 ft. pole. I agree and disagree with the OP. controversial subject.

Well, I for one have to say that I think the OP's points 1-7 are pretty much self-evident, and I fully accept point 8. That being said, I think the OP's generalisation that "If you are depressed, you are a failure" is asinine. I also take issue with JinnKai's use of sneer quotes in what seems to be such a dismissive fashion.

One wonders if JinnKai has any real conception of what "bad" parents can be like up close and personal? I do. I've been there.

My father's parenting philosophy as applied to me (but NOT to my brother, five years younger than I am) was based around the following observations:
- 'Sympathy' is just a word in the dictionary between 'shit' and 'syphilis'.
- There are millions of other people out there who are worse off than you are, so why should I waste my time on you?

I was constantly told:
- "You're an embarrassment to us."
- "We're ashamed to have a son like you."
- "Walk so far behind us that no-one will know we have anything to do with you."
- "I'm so sick to death of your whingeing" (which was usually about the favouritism shown to my younger brother) "that if I see you crying about anything, I'll just save myself the effort and give you a hiding on the spot." (He would sometimes add: "And then if it's your lucky day I might bother to ask what was wrong - BUT YOU'D BETTER HAVE A BLOODY GOOD EXCUSE!!!")
- For years, about the only praise I got was: "Gee, you've been pretty well-behaved lately. You haven't needed a hiding in a while. Perhaps I'd better give you another taste of the belt" - my father's favourite bashing implement - "just so you don't forget what it's like."
- "If I find that you've wasted anyone else's time with your stupid problems then I'll give you a damn good hiding." (THAT has been an EXTREMELY costly lesson to unlearn. I still have trouble accepting that it is OK for me to ask people when I need help.)
- "You should be thankful that I care enough to even bother giving you a hiding."

Punishment usually consisted of being given several lashes with the belt in my parents' bedroom - sometimes with the buckle - then being made to grovel on the floor to avoid an immediate second helping (as I was such an ungrateful little shit that I cried after the first helping), and finally being literally kicked out the door into the hallway. I would then be given fifteen minutes to stop crying, pull myself together and rejoin the family, all bright and cheerful. (Crying was the chief thing that made me an "embarrassment", and thus eligible for another immediate bashing.)

On one occasion, when I was six years old, I was picked up so that I was eye-to-eye with my father, run across the room and the back of my head was smashed against a brick wall three times, following which my father, still holding me up there, shook me and yelled in my face demanding to know how I could be such a pig to my brother. He then proceeded to tell me that that didn't hurt and that if I didn't stop crying by the time he counted to five I'd get more. Of course, I got more - another two blows, head against wall. My crime? I had been reading an article in a newspaper on the floor, which my brother (then eighteen months old) had been crawling across. I had been repeatedly lifting him off it so that I could keep reading and telling him not to crawl across it, and after having to keep doing this, eventually I had gotten fed up and pushed him off, whereupon he rolled on his side without hitting his head on the floor and started crying. (My parents had long before expressly forbidden me to even politely ask my brother not to annoy me, even if he was doing things like pulling my hair.) My father didn't see any of this, as he was at the other end of the house at the time. He merely acted on my mother's report that, "He's being a pig to his brother again." She hadn't actually been watching, either, but cooking in the next room.

Favouritism towards my brother was so extreme that my parents repeatedly told me that any arguments between us were obviously my fault and therefore to save their time and effort I would be the one punished. This was applied so consistently that my brother caught on and started making the most of it - when he was three years old. One night, not long after his fourth birthday, not long after we had both gone to bed, my brother was taunting me about the fact that he could do whatever he liked to me or to my toys and if I didn't like it, he could get his way by just pretending to start crying, because I'd be hit for it. I just quietly snapped, and it was lucky that one of my parents looked in on us just a minute later, because by then I was holding a pillow down firmly over my brother's face. They must have been really shaken by that, because I actually didn't get physically punished. They just threatened to tell my teacher, who I idolised. Of course, they didn't bother asking why I had done it or what was wrong either - they never did in any circumstances.

I suffered constant bullying at school - it wasn't good being an academic in a sports-mad town - but despite this, I repeatedly had to hide under the house for hours after coming home so that my parents couldn't see that I'd been crying. (Crying = embarrassment to parents = instant bashing, no questions asked.)

On top of that, I simply never knew when my father would simply take something I'd said, twist it completely out of context and throw it back at me in a way designed to make me feel like a worthless, selfish, ungrateful little shit. He would make snide remarks about just about anything - particularly my religion - and then run and hide behind the threat of another bashing if I got upset.

Oh, he eventually did start on my brother after I left home as well. One morning, just hours after I got home from college for Christmas, one year before my brother finished high school, Dad gave him a pep talk about his academic performance. (My brother and I are both very bright, but whereas I'm better with the sciences, my brother is more artistically inclined - actually he's excellent at that sort of thing.) I didn't know about it until Mum appeared in front of me, in tears, and told me about it. I found my brother curled up on his bed in the corner of his room, shaking and in tears. Great way to encourage someone who is already lacking in confidence, Dad!

What's the effect of all this? I've been in situations in which "buck up" is appropriate and doable - I'm in one now, having just lost both my job (retrenchments) and fiancee within a couple of weeks of each other - and I've been in situations in which "buck up" would have been appropriate, but I just didn't have the psychological foundation there to be able to do it if I wanted to. Hey, that's what happens if you've been told all your life up to that point that if anything goes wrong, it's automatically your fault and you're going to get your head smashed in for it. First time this happened at work, after I accidentally deleted some programming work that had taken me a week to complete, I just completely fell to pieces. Despite my colleagues' assurances that they could recover the files, I ran out of the building in a state of mental collapse. The others in my team spent an hour wandering the streets trying to find me and make sure that I didn't simply tie a block of concrete to my ankles and jump in the local river. (No exaggeration.) I took two days off work before I was in any state to go back.

Am I depressed? I certainly have been, to the point where suicide really did look like an attractive option. (At one point, the only thing that kept me going was a completely irrational belief that things might get better if I stayed alive.) Not having a lot of fun right now either. Am I a failure? Despite constant bullying right through school which continued right up to and during my end-of-school exams, and with no support from my parents or schools worth speaking of to help me cope with it, I won an academic scholarship to one of the more prestigious Oz schools and came fifth in my year of 125 students. I've also come first in my state in academic competitions, in one case despite having a severe headache when I sat the exam. (To my father, I was still an idiot though.) In my most recent job I've been flown to my company's global head office in the US three times in six years for a total of nearly ten months, so presumably I must have been doing something right somewhere if they were going to sink that kind of money into me. However, I do still have great difficulty in believing that I'm worth much, that my opinions might be worth voicing, that my hobbies and interests are at all worthwhile, or even that that girl over there might actually get a laugh out of talking to me.

Sure, there are times when "buck up" IS the appropriate response to someone else's mood. But if someone thinks that it's ALWAYS appropriate for another person who isn't doing well, then that isn't a sign to me that they have received some deep, profound lesson from the School Of Life. It's a sign to me that, like my father, they are simply too lazy to care.

My only point, not trying to go either way in this argument, is depressed people are a failue at what?

Failure is subjective.

I'm not going to speak for him, but I'll share my feelings on it. I know that shitty circumstances make things harder for people, but at some point people need to be responsible for their own actions.

I don't think anyone is suggesting children be held to this standard - just adults.

By the way OzOz, that was a great post. Thanks for sharing. I respect the fact you were able to share that personal info with us.

The trouble with labelling people who are depressed as failures is not only that it's patently wrong, but it can cause more damage to an already damaged person.

Jinn, you seem to lack a basic understanding of depression. Quite often depression is caused by a chemical imbalance. Saying someone is a failure because of a chemical imbalance is like saying they're a failure because they got the flu. They can't help it, it's not their fault, and there was nothing they could have done to prevent it.

Even if it's not a chemical imbalance, sometimes things in life happen that make you depressed (clinically). People are not robots, and despite what you seem to think they are not failures for not being robots. Unlike robots, emotions play a large part in our cognitive processes, and therefore our actions. To say that someone is a failure because their brain is responding normally to clinical depression is asinine.

I'm not entirely sure but you may have a lack of understanding about the difference between being sad (what many refer to as being depressed) and clinical depression. Being sad is a passing thing, depression is much more permanent.

Frankly your post is not in line with the title you seem proud of giving yourself. For all you know there could be someone reading this thread who is currently depressed. Being called a failure, especially if it's not accurate or just, is certainly not going to help them get through their problems.

I do agree that we as a society seem to be automatically looking for excuses, and I'm no exception, nor do I mean it as a generalization that everyone does. I do try my best to take responsibility for my actions, and wish others would as well...

Being someone who was diagnosed with a chemical imbalance, I don't know that I could have "bucked up" and gotten over it myself. Luckily I responded well to medication and I don't even have to take that now.

I agree with what others here have said. Telling a truly depressed person they are a failure is most likely not going to get the results you desire, and could have very bad consequences.

Well, we don't expect you to. :) But it would be nice if Jinn would get back in here to speak for himself, since quite a number of issues have been raised since his last post.

I do appreciate hearing everyone's stories... OzOz, thank you for being so open with us. Really illustrates the point.

I'm working on it. It hit 3 pages in Word so I'm working on slimming it down for the viewing audience. Being succint was never a strong point of mine.

I hope it wouldn't be offensive to suggest that, like the classic homophobe who fiercely rejects that which they find in themselves, that one who so aggressively pursues an anti-depression path may actually be trying to "logic-out" or justify or "talk-away" major depressive tendencies.

Excellent point, shakran, and it's the same sort of vibe I've gotten from a number of your posts, JinnKai--particularly the ones regarding control of emotions. Humans are emotional creatures--it's one of the reasons our bodies produce hormones. If we weren't meant to have feelings and emotions, we wouldn't produce the hormones that lead to these feelings/emotions.

I'm not a robot or a Vulcan. I'm a human.

And yet, I can still split my fingers and say, "Live long, and prosper" to you Owl, and we understand each other. hehe. :D

Post length seems to be inversely proportional to the number of people willing to read it, so I've split this into three seperate sections. Read as many or as few as you want to. :)

On a personal note:

I wasn't joking. All told, it probably took three hours to write and re-write my OP so that I could present my point without undue offense. As I noted above, I spend a great deal of time reading the replies to threads I create and just as long writing my replies. I hope, perhaps, that this might dissuade some of the ideas that I'm:

"extremely arrogant", "hold deeply ignorant opinions," "[have the inability to]say anything of value about depression," that I'm "a control freak" with "half-assed notions," "so self-important that I feel compelled to share my ignorance with innocent bystanders," "a drunk" "mad at my father for calling me a loser", have a "lofty, arrogant, holier than thou, I'm better than attitude," am unable to "LEARN from those who knew more than [I do]", "undecuated," with "truckloads of issues to deal with concerning my alcholic father" and I certainly hope that I can prevent "huge chunks of your soul" from dying when you continue to read my posts.

I've read each and every reply in this thread at least once, and I've spent many hours talking to friends, family, my girlfriend, my girlfriend's roommate (who is also my roomate's girlfriend.. ) about this issue. It's not a new one, either.

It's actually quite ironic: this thread idea was spawned by a post I made on another forum almost 5 years ago. In reading through what I thought I knew five years ago, I was shocked at the ridiculous things I said and believed. Some of it was quite appalling, but one thread stuck out. Why? Because thoughout all of the ridiculous things I said, I still agreed with with this one thread.

It was actually called something to the effect of "Depressed People, FUCK YOU! AND SHUT THE FUCK UP!"

With that in mind, perhaps the language used in THIS thread isn't as offensive as it could have been. And perhaps it was still too offensive. Offense is relative, and I think I did a good job of toning it down without losing the essence of the idea. Then again, that forum implicitly encouraged swearing and flaming; an idea I'm glad doesn't persist here. I structured the original post the way I did because I KNEW that it would incite a great deal of people who disagreed.

The one unfortunate (and fortunate) thing about TFP is that you all seem to care about JinnKai rather than the idea at hand. While it's nice to have people address you personally and perhaps offer suggestions about why you think the way you do, it's really not relevant to the majority of my threads. When I post threads, its typically because I either (a) have something I feel very strongly about or (b) have something I don't feel strongly about at all, and want input. In both cases my reason for having the opinion is usually irrelevant. And yet at the same time, it's nice to know that someone might be thinking of me, even if they think I'm an "extremely arrogant" person with "half-assed notions." It's nice. Really, it is.

Hopefully my personal digression will not kill this thread, as it is typically prone to do.

On the thread title:
Forums are an interesting beast, seperated in many ways from real converation. The most notable is the optionality of it; in face-to-face conversation, not responding to the person talking is considered rude. Especially when they're asking you questions.

If you engage someone in a physical conversation, they're societally obligated to respond with something, even if it's "bag off, stranger." If you've been exposed to internet advertising in any form or been a member of any forums for a while, you know that communication is very competitive. The things that stick out in your mind get your attention and your reading, and the others do not. Understandly, I wanted people to read this thread. As we discussed on the first page, if I had made the title "If I were depressed, I'd feel like a failure" or "You are a failure if you continually allow depression to negatively impact your life" it wouldn't have gotten nearly as many reads or replies as it did. Similarly, if I'd phrased the OP with a lot of what-ifs and maybe's, I wouldn't have gotten as many replies.

That's the other facet of conversation which has always been of peculiar interest to me. You often get much better, thorough, and decisive communication if you can rile the other person up. If I hadn't taken a stance and merely asked "If you're depressed, are you a failure?" I estimate my post-reply rate would have been about 10. People would have chimed in their individual opinions, maybe disagreed, and left. But with an OP that clearly takes a stance, people will actually fight to make their opinion heard. It's the nature of the forum world, and I stand by the tone and title of my post.

If I wanted to post something so that everyone could chime in and then agree, I wouldn't even bother. I see too many threads that seem to be garnering "support" for an idea without ever presenting the opposition. And it's often why I find myself playing devil's advocate; each side has a position that needs to be strongly presented, in every argument. I believe that it is ONLY by the strong presentation of these extremes that we can truly evolve "humanity, sexuality, and philosophy."

And that's why I've created threads on thing like virtualization, mental control, procrastination, addiction, thankfulness, authority, abuse of authority, abuse of welfare programs, excellence, relationship paradigms, using drugs to treat depression, critical thinking, and RESPECT.


Most importantly, however, I believe it. People who use depression or sadness as excuses for failure are losers AND failures in my book. And that brings me to the last part:

On depression:


After easily another 6 hours reading and re-reading your many insightful replies, it appears that most who dissent disagree with (4), and carry that disagreement into the rest of my post.

Point (4) was quite important, because I acknowledged that many people would not agree. If you feel that emotions must be allowed to reign (perhaps at times interfering with our well-being) then you disagree with 4.

What followed (4) was my opinion, based in THAT frame of mind. If you don't think emotions should be controlled, then you won't believe negative emotion is a failure, and you'll certainly disagree with me.



I strongly disagree. I think that belittling, although horrible, does not have to be the "WORST thing" you can do for someone. My past is not much different from OzOz's, actually. And, as I acknowledged in my original post, everyone has a bad childhood. Everyone has assholes who cheat them, steal from them, break their heart, tell them they're stupid and ugly. What makes us above them is (a) not returning the favor and (b) using it to make ourselves stronger. While I do not mean to belittle your experience Oz, we've all been there. My personality, however, refused to let that bother me. My bipolar sister who ran away when she was 16 before of my totalarian father had a personality like many here. She was an escapist. Rather than accept the ridiculousness that was some of my father's behavior, she left.

To me, that's failing. I used everything that my father said and did to make me a better person. I wrote down things that he did and said that I didn't myself want to repeat. I listened to the critiques that he did give me, for they held insight into truth. Most people don't complain for the hell of it - they complain because they have a legitimate concern about your behavior or your actions. And unless they're doing it for a purely selfish reason, we should listen, and improve. This thread is a perfect example. It's been made perfectly clear to me that my writing style (different than my verbal style) appears to be quite arrogant, and I'm using that as motivation to remove that tendency of my writing. It doesn't mean I stop and whine about how mean everyone on TFP is, even as tempting as it is. It's tempting to us all, and I that is why I felt it so necessary to deem depression failure. I'm certainly guilty of it myself, and that makes it failure. And yet, that label does not bother me. It reminds me to avoid that behavior in the future. It's positive, rather than negative. The most powerful people in the world, I believe, are those that can turn all negative things, from people's behavior and actions to truly traumatizing things, into positive action. Failing to do so is.. well, failure.

If no one ever told you that it was not okay to remain depressed all your life, what would stop you from doing exactly that?

The issue addressed in the OP is that most people are NOT clinically (or chemically) depressed. They are simply whining and making excuses for their lackluster performance. And I fail to see any logical argument to the contrary! How can one defend excusing bad behavior as a good thing?

You're absolutely correct, and I agree with you both.

That's precisely the POINT of this thread! Most people don't understand what "depressed" are, and simply need to be told that their excuse isn't going to work. The legitimately "depressed" are covered by (8).Each choice we make causes a ripple effect in our lives: when things happen to us, it is the reaction we choose that creates the difference between the sorrows of our past and the joy in our future.
This is also the reason for my post. How I got over my depression? I don't know if it was me, my parents, or my peers. Something made me feel like an internal failure. What kind of person are you, JinnKai? You're going to let what these assholes have said about you shape you? You're going to let them make you a failure?

And I said no. I decided that I was the only one who would ever be in control my emotions, and that letting "depression" take me over would be the ultimate failure. I believe in something called the Warrior's Code. If you disagree with this code, then it's again unlikely that you'll agree with me:

At the foundation of proper attitude is the belief that you are guaranteed victory as long as you do not quit. One learns how to overcome temporary discomforts on their path towards victory. They understand that all worthwhile accomplishments come through hard work and perseverance, and a warrior is the epitome of those qualities. After all, if it was easy, everyone would do it, and then it would not have the same value. Indeed the warrior attitude is priceless and cannot be bought. It is only earned through hard work and discipline.

I definitely agree that telling someone that they are a failure because they are depressed may not be the best treatment strategy. I also agree that depression may be caused by a chemical imbalance. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here, but a person may have depression caused by a chemical imbalance and it may be that person's fault and they may have been able to do something to prevent it. Even if it isn't their fault, it is their responsibility. If I have a problem, it's my responsibility to solve it or find help to solve it (whether it's depression or even cancer). Too often I see people trying do absolve themselves of responsibility because of something biological.

That said, I again agree that depression does not make someone a failure. And calling someone a failure for being depressed is probably not too helpful.

Why do you care? It's what someone thinks, it's the opinion someone is entitled to. It's something they formulate based on criteria that they alone create and understand. It's something that you are powerless to control yet feel the need to try to.

The reason I take issue with the idea of chemical imbalance as another excuse is that we'll never be able to prove one very important thing:

Does chemical imbalance cause depressive disorders?
Or do depressive disorders cause chemical imbalance?

How do you know, conclusively, that it wasn't the negative thoughts that created the "chemical" difference?

You can divert the flow by using chemicals to subdue it, or you can use pyschotherapy to stop it at its source. I prefer the latter.

Much like my opinion that using depression as an excuse makes you a failure? Pot, kettle?

Actually no, that's called DISCUSSION, someone's opinoin of you is not really a discussion, more like observational statements.

You are confusing the idea of posting a discussion and people's opinion of you from that discussion.

Why does it matter? Thoughts are electrochemical (neurons firing, etc.). So, I would expect that negative thoughts could be expressed as a chemical imbalance. I would also expect that a neurochemical imbalance caused by something other than negative thoughts could result in negative thoughts.

I'm afraid I don't see the point in talking with you, Jinn, since you seem quite determined not to leave room for other people's perspectives or experiences. All these posts haven't changed your mind, so why am I even bothering? It's not even worth of being called an argument (and it's far from a discussion)... it's a sermon, from you to the masses. Not the best way to go about convincing anyone, unless they're already a member of your congregation. Which most of us aren't.

Anyway, that aside, I will respond to your personal note here: This is what it comes down to, right here. You were *made* to feel like a failure. People, things, media shouted at you that you were a failure. The interesting thing is that you listened to them, and you let them win. You let them convince you that you were a failure. And now you're trying to do the same thing here, but we won't let you. Because you were not a failure, not then, and not now. But you won't listen to that, since you seem set on wanting to believe that you were a failure then, and that you are some kind of warrior, now. I think I'd have liked to meet the old JinnKai better than this current one, though.

This is the epitome of the Protestant work ethic and meritocratic individualism, both of which are as mythical as anything else in a given culture. It's not a philosophy, it's an ideology that has been instilled in you by your dominant culture since you were born. It's designed to turn you into an Alpha Male who wants to go out and kick the world's ass. I'd say it's done a pretty good job.

One last note: Why are you keeping an ongoing record of how many hours you've spent posting on this thread? What value does that serve in convincing people of your logic? We've all spent *quite* a bit of time on the TFP, starting and responding to countless threads... I don't see the necessity of calculating your "sacrifice" of time on here, personally.

Sure, once they figure it out. Trouble is, it's not as easy to figure out "I'm clinically depressed due to a brain chemical imbalance" as it is to figure out "I cut my finger."

In the first place, depression involves an emotion. There's no blood, and no physical pain to localize the cause of the problem.

Whatever mood you're in right now, are you constantly asking yourself "What are the chemical reasons that I feel this way?"

Of course you don't - - and depressed people don't either. They feel sad, they figure they'll get over it, just like you do when you feel sad. By the time they may or may not realize they aren't gonna get over it naturally it's often too late - depression leads to lethargy - you tend to not want to move - - many depressed patients just sit on the couch and stare at the wall all day. And yes I'm sure that you would say they should stop staring at the wall and go get help, hence the responsibility - - but I would say with all due respect that if you have not either been depressed, known someone who was depressed, or studied / treated depression, you do not understand how hard it is to get off that couch.

eDIT - changed mind

This is a perfect example of why there is such a strong reaction to your thread, Jinnkai. The time you spend on your posts ought to be spent addressing why people might disagree with your line of reasoning, and perhaps listening to what they have to say. In a similar situation, some might even stand corrected!

Instead you've decided to explain why those who disagree aren't following your logic. Anyone who dissents feels like they are being corrected. I understand what you are trying to say, but you need to take a different approach and alter your tone.

I'm grateful that most of my life has been happy. I had great parents and I have a great life. Last year when I went to Hong Kong I believe I was depressed. I would love to have gotten a professional or experienced opinion, but everyone I've described my feelings at the time to said "you were depressed." The thing is, no matter what I tried to tell myself...and believe me...I'm the master of mind games, nothing would change. That's the thing about depression - you can't win against yourself!

I tried to explain to myself that in the midst of a 5 star hotel and for many musicians, a dream gig, I was supposed to appreciate it and I was being an ungrateful moron. I really got angry with myself on a daily basis. Half the time it was for agreeing to do the gig in the first place...the other half was for not appreciating what I had which was basically luxury. That didn't work. The only thing that finally worked was returning home at the end of the contract and erasing the real source of my depression, which was the extreme loneliness I felt being in a foreign country with essentially zero friends (my biggest mistake which I also hit myself over the head with constantly was not making more friends as soon as I got there).

I believe this relates to the thread title and your aims. It's an example of how realizing you're a failure in no way helps one pull out of depression. To be clear, I realized that my depression was a failure to eke happiness out of my situation, which a trained warrior clearly could have.

Applying the label of failure to myself never occurred to me, because it's essentially meaningless. To fail at "life" is to be dead. What exactly was I failing at? I made almost no friends so I was failing socially, but my piano playing almost never suffered so I was excelling at music. Humans are complex and nobody could ever be %100 failure. To use the term "failure" merely to delude oneself into bouncing back from the abyss (which I don't believe works anyway) would be to ignore the truth. I didn't know that warriors did that.

First of all, thank you jorgelito for sharing your story. I was sorry to hear that you didn't feel you could share your story on TFP and be heard... it might be useful for the rest of us, especially the mods, if you could say more about that. I started some threads in the past about whether or not Christians feel welcome here, and whether or not gay people feel welcome here, since there is a degree of Christian and gay-bashing at times... and now I would be interested in knowing if depressed people feel welcome here. Your input would be valued. (Did you write about these issues in a TFP journal, btw?)

I'm glad to hear that you are no longer struggling with serious depression, and you are lucky that you were able to get yourself out of it, on your own.

I wanted to say something about this, though... Unless he has changed his argument, I don't think Jinn's theory is that people who *use* depression as an *excuse* for failure are losers. If that were true, I would have to agree with him. I don't respect excuses, though I know they happen because we are all human.

No, Jinn's theory, unless I completely misunderstand him, is that people who ARE depressed ARE failures. It's not about *excuses* for failure; a depressed person IS the failure (see thread title). To him, it is a value-laden thing, putting you right on the polarized map of good and evil, success and failure, black and white. It is a fine line, but an important one to distinguish from what I can tell in your opinion, vs. his.

Feel free to clear this up, however. But that's just what I am getting out of it.

EDIT: Sorry jorgelito, I saw your thread and started responding immediately. By the time I posted, you had erased your post. :confused:

That is an excellent point Abaya - maybe we are misunderstanding his point . I understood it as the "excuse" reason. That could be the source of the problem - perhaps it's not clear or too nuanced.

You want to know when you're a failure? It's not when you're depressed, that's for damn sure. I've been there. It's not necessarily even caving once in a while. Being a failure is when you just quit caring and trying. When you can't stand up for yourself, what you believe, or things of that nature, you're a failure.

Being depressed equalling failure? That's pathetic.

how could I forget this:
From If Life is A Game, These Are the Rules

For Sultana and Cynthetiq: Many people disagree with, hate, etc. things about other people that aren't part of themselves. To say that all or most people who dislike something about other people do that because they dislike something about themselves is really a huge fucking stretch.

Not a huge stretch at all.

Understand the logic of it, the combinations encompass everything.

Love something about self, love same thing in others.

Hate something about self, hate same thing in others.

The first two are pretty easy to see as they are agreements that people make with themselves and others. The second are a bit harder to see, but easy to example.

Love something about self, hate same thing in others.
I love being successful, but other people's success jeopardizes my own.

Hate something about self, love same thing in others.
I hate that I cannot be friendly and outspoken, I wish I could be like John who is much more outgoing than I am.

The easiest example to point out are exsmokers. Most are vehement about others smoking around them saying it's so stupid, why? Because they hate smoking so much and need to berate and degrade the concept or idea because they need that crutch in order to "convince" themselves that their path is good.

Not all people who are even clinically depressed are failures.
Not all people who are failures are clinically depressed.
I believe the two do not truely have a connection.

I do believe that almost all failures will come up with some REASON for their failure other than themselves. Depression is a popular excuse for failure because it's not something that other people can measure or deny. There is no concrete proof of depression unless a Dr can diagnose it.

I have a friend who is clinically diagnosed as Bi-Polar. He has socked away a lot of money, has a job that he's held down for 10 years (he's only 32) and is a very responsible person. I could consider him successful. Depression has nothing to do with success or failure.

I'm not convinced that such a state exists. I'd say hating others' success uncovers a fairly conflicted view of my own success. If I "loved being successful", I'd be beyond being threatened about it. If I, say, wanted to be successful, but thought I couldn't be, it'd be natural to hate others' success.

I assert that anything you hate or criticize in another has its roots in your being unable to swallow that quality in yourself. I have yet to hear a convincing counterexample of that.

Much better articulated than my own.

I wouldn't say that they should stop staring at the wall and go get help. I never said anything remotely like that. Of course, depression is a difficult mental illness. I'm familiar with it's symptoms. Of course, people who are depressed should be helped. Yes, it takes more than just getting up off the couch to come out of a depressive episode. (Just as it takes more than getting off the couch to fight cancer). None of this removes any personal responsibility.

Also, I am familiar with depression personally, academically, and professionally. (Not that it matters one way or the other. I don't place much stock in arguments from authority).

Plenty of people suffer from depression and lead extremely productive lives. I've seen it many times. My wife and brother-in-law are shrinks and they've dealt with plenty of people. The right meds help with any chemical imbalances. Therapy helps with the rest. :thumbsup:

To say someone with depression is a failure is meaningless, much like saying someone with one arm is a failure. It just is. What you do with (or in spite of) the disabilaty is what counts and makes a difference.;)

I really don't understand the original point of this thread other than to incite wild discussions...:confused:

To me, the sensation of the chemical imbalance coming on is kind of...obvious. It's like I go, hmm, something isn't right here. I absolutely notice the shift from normal to abnormal. Of course, in my case, it's VERY predictable--always happens in October, and I have to be on the medication through April. But even if I weren't thinking about the timing--I can sense it. Procrastination becomes all too tempting. My level of accomplishment decreases (though is still great compared to some), and I want to sleep a lot more.

None of these things have anything to do with outside forces I have control over--unless you think I can control the weather.

On one level, you don't have control - you can't control the weather. On a different level, you have taken control - you recognize that you have this issue and you take action to handle it.