I'd suggest that's a better test of success or failure than simply "Are you depressed?". Do you have a problem? Yes? Then what are you doing about it? Nothing at all, ever? That would get a '0' from the judges. Or are you taking action and monitoring progress to revise your actions if this is necessary? That sounds like a much better option to me.

Even though you'll still be depressed for part of this process.

I hate people who use their power and influence to make other people's lives miserable. I have never done that to another person, nor do I have the desire to.

Do I get a cookie?

Actually it is not that you've not ever done it nor desire to do so, but the WHY you hate people who use their power and influence. Is it because possibly given the responsibility you'd not "do the right thing" based on someone else's criteria getting criticized and mocked for making decisions? Is it possible that you'd be tempted to use power and influence in a good way, but not seeing that it unintentionally makes someone's life miserable?

My examples above are something I face being on the Board of Directors of our buildings. I make decisions that I think are benefitting the most people and sometimes there are some that do not get benefit but actually harmed, case in point I had to vote to raise the parking lot fees from $75 to $150. Some people are now going to have to sell their cars because they are on fixed incomes. I hated doing it but I had to look out for the many because if we don't have fiduciarary responsibility, everyone loses.

Do I like the fact I had to make that choice? No. But I did choose to be in a position to help make the decision because I could not sit and watch doing nothing. Price of oil, electricty, labor, good, all going up, our operational costs skyrocketing over 100% from last year.

Unfortunately I will be making their lives more miserable in the future when I raise monthly maintenence fees again to balance the budget. I'm adressing it as best as I can, but sometimes there are no other choices but the one right in front of you. It's not a pleasant thought but at least I know that someone with some responsibilty and compassion is on the Board of Directors.

Sounds like the winter blues, which is greater for some than others. Or SADD. I delt with that years ago and basically hated winter. Now I love the crispness of winter. Plus, you live in a rainy part of the country (I think), which could add to the winter blues thing.

I used to be a smoker. Quit many times and the late fall was always the time I tended to begin again. Guess I was self- medicating.

Well, if it means anything at all - all this talk about depression got me out of a funk I was in. :)

Gotta love the whole "Holy shit, it could be worse" realization.

Besides, depression AND failure are only temporary.

:) Glad to hear that, Merlocke.

I live in a very rainy, very gray part of the country. Come winter I definitely TRY make sure all my lightbulbs are good to go (I like the GE Reveal lightbulbs; they seem to have a "happier" light), develop and maintain certain care rituals (self-care is one of those first things to go when you're depressed), and see my doctor about returning to medication. Some winters are better than others; some I stick to my program of self-care, and some winters I don't manage it. Somehow I always come out on the other side--usually a little wiser about what I need to do to take care of myself.

What a welcoming title. A statement like that couldn't be anything but harmful to somebody who's depressed. Good job, and thanks for starting a conversation that way in a community that is otherwise very friendly and helpful.

I just read something in today's issue of USA TODAY (Life section, page 7D) that the FDA just approved Wellbutrin XL as the first drug to treat seasonal affective disorder.

Might be something to look into!

Good luck...

Already have a good medication I stick with--and it's already in generic form. I'm not about to shell out hundreds of dollars for a brand-name medication like Wellbutrin XL that MIGHT work a little better but MIGHT have side effects I don't like.

$1/pill is better than $5/pill.

Easy there tiger...I was only trying to share something I read that I thought might be of interest. I don't sell this stuff...

Ok, I understood your point in the other post, but I have no idea what you are trying to say in this one. If you are saying I hate people who use their power and influence to fuck up other people's lives because I might do that accidentally if I have power\influence, then you are wrong. Otherwise, I have no clue what you are saying.

my best guesses as to your position of statement of hating power influence.

Either you don't like being responsible for it, don't like the "limelight", criticism, appellations, attention, or some people also don't like the fact that they inadvertently harm people by making decisions.

Agreeing with Halx I must say that I am, and have been many times, clinically depressed; that is diagnosed after taking the proper steps by trained and certified physicians. And I have also been diagnosed, at an early age, with severe social anxiety. I am not, and I am quite clear, a life long failure or loser. In fact, Clinical Depression effects many people who's bodies simply cannot produce the bodies normal needed and required amount of seratonin. Chemicals are fickle but depression is a very serious and a very real thing. As real as being struck by a car or breaking your leg. And it's not so much that you are offending me, you just seem to be ignorant.

This is MY Opinion of course and should be taken with a grain of salt. But it seems that you are refering to sad people. Sad people and depressed people are not the SAME people. You see being depressed does not mean total and unwavering sadness... it is exactly how it sounds... as if you are a ball that has had all the air let out. It is less about sadness then it is about a numbness.

Being numb, being confused, living life without as much joy, physically and mentally, sexual confusion... all side effects of depression. And although crying and whining accompany it sometimes there are very few depressed men and women I have seen who are very emotional, if "emotional" is something that still exists to them at all. I find that there is exactly an opposite response to life, when depressed, then that of what you speak. It is NOT, and I repeat, NOT emotional. It is far from it. Depression's biggest weapon is just that... it steals that joy from you. Sadness, fear, happiness, horniness, excitement... and leaves you with a numb buzz.

But unlike yourself I am going to say that this is NOT a standard but are my own experiences, as well as many experiences I have stumbled upon in my life, including my extremely successful girlfriend, her father, my father, seven of my university professors, more then one director I've worked with (one, who suffered severely from depression and anxiety that I worked with countless times), three highschool principals/vice principals and their children who, their parents confessed, suffered from my probelm, as well as many countless adults, young men and women, peers and authority figures I have come across.

I am, I repeat, NOT offended by your post; just sad that you have standardized a large community of very strong, sucessful, and bold leaders and behind the scene play makers I have met in my life, as well as putting me in a group that I do not deserve to be boxed into. Although, you are free to disagree sir; although I believe doing so would be altogether ignorant.

Also, to give an answer to your own answer to mals question. "Can anyone really defend depression as a good thing?" (and excuse my own paraphrasing) I can answer that simple. This so called WEAKNESS or FAILURE that you have attributed to me and hundreds of thousands of others that I'm sure exist, and that is not a hyperbole, has, very VERY much so, created a stronger and more versitial man out of me. It has taught me countless lessons and put me many hard and almost unescapable struggles and situations. This is not me being a crybaby, it is simply the truth. And although I have been put in these situations (including taking my grad year off with pending scholarships to two of atlantic canada's best music programs) I have gotten out. That sir, is not failure, that sir is very much success.

I would very much like you to respond to this post because I want to see how you feel about what I have to say. I say this not to be rude but I feel your response will be feble and filled with holes that just attribute to your own ignorance and hostility. Please feel free to prove me very wrong.

Thank you. PMF21

Depression is considered nurosis while bi-polar disorder is considered pyscosis. They are unrelated but I see your point completely. And agree. I think the lack of public awareness that accompanies mental health, or lack thereof is disgusting. I was very pleased to see that you are an understanding friend and have taken his experience to enlighten others. Thanks for your post

How does this agree with Hal, at all? He said that my argument was flawed becuase we need a dispersion of mentalities, and I fail to see how your unique failure creates any sort of "agreement" beyond providing an example. I agree with him myself, the argument is flawed because it sets a standard. That doesn't mean I can't assign the "dispersed mentalities" labels that I feel fit.

Hey, me too. I got over it.

Never said you were. If one continues to be depressed, they'll continue to fail.. but that doesn't make them a "life long failure" nor did I imply such.

Depressed people are just sad people who decided to stay sad for longer then necessary.

If I disagree with you, I'm ignorant. And you're not setting a standard? You're open minded and willing to see other opinions? Not with rhetoric like that, you aren't. I'm fine with you telling me that I set standards, but don't you dare claim that you aren't.

And how did you succeed? Oh.. that's right. You stopped being depressed. So if you "got out" and you're now succeeding, what were you doing when you were depressed?

That was fun.

Depression:
Your post sounds precisely like the "whiny" depressed people that I'm talking about. Aren't they wonderful because you escaped the evil grips of such a strong mental affliction? Not really. A little self-control (or some drugs, I never discounted chemical depressions, see 8 if you even bothered to read my first post) could have prevented it in the first place.

If you want to use depression as an excuse or let it justify why you did poorly at something, then by all means go ahead. Just don't believe that I'm going to accept something with definitions above is something attributed with "success." I don't normally think of "gloom, inadequacy, sadness, lack of self-worth, dejection, sleep disturbances, constipation, mood disoders, disturbances of sexual function" as being "successful." You define it how ya wanna.

Winston Churchill: Failure?

Abraham Lincoln: Failure?

Ludwig van Beethoven, musician:

Boris Yeltsin, former President, Russian Federation:

Billy Joel, singer

Brian Wilson, lead singer/songwriter (Beach Boys)

Dick Cavett, comic, talk show host, Yale graduate

Jim Carrey, comic, actor

Mike Wallace, award winning journalist

Vincent van Gogh, artist

THIS IS WHAT IM TALKING ABOUT!! THANK YOU FOR PROVIDING THE ARTICLES!

Those that decided to stop being failures moved on with their life and "realized what they were capable of." They stopped being failures and found a way OUT of the depression, to future success. Those that wallowed in the depression (Van Gogh) dwindled themselves to death. Read any of their descriptions of "depression" and you'll see that they're failing themselves. Read any of their descriptions of what happened afterwards, and you'll see the success. Depression = failure, anyone?

So...whenever one is in a depressive state, it means their lives are a failure, but as soon as they feel better they suddenly become successful? Are you saying that its possible to be both a failure and a success at the same time?

It's like saying a great athlete is a failure because he has a sprained ankle. But when he's feeling healthy, he's back to being a great athlete.

Certainly not - it would be pedantic and pointless to label an entire life as a failure. Your metaphor is not applicable except in cases of (8). It would be more like a ballplayer who decides that they don't want to play in a game. Later, they decide that they might as well not play again, since they didn't play last time. In this way, it's cyclical and pointless, much like depression. And yes, it would be a failure. Likening it to an injury is saying that depression is completely out of your control. It's not. And anyone chosing to follow the path of "sitting out of the game" is failing.

I'm confused.
Are you saying that one is only a failure when in a depressive state?
Are you saying that failure is a permanent state of being?
Are you saying success is a permanent state of being?
Converesly, are you saying that happiness equates to success?
Are you talking about people who are depressed their entire lives?
Are you saying that depression is transitory and can simply be a part of the life of a successful person?

Sorry for all the questions...its a compelling subject here. I think I'm confused as to your definiton of failure and success.

I do love how you took things out of context and used only select phrases and quotes to further your flaud arguement. You did not address it on as a whole and therefore failed to respond properly.

I am not OUT of my depressive state. I am still very much depressed. But I have successfully learn how to control it. And it is not me so much as blaming, or making an excuse, it's the truth; some situations were just CAUSED by my depression. Things that would not have happened if I were not depressed.

you continue to say that depressed people are SAD people when I continuely asserted that they are the opposite, emotionless. Atleast I was.

Also you talk about depression almost like it is a wall or obstacle that you have to conquer before you can keep moving. It is not that at all. Thats where you are wrong. It doesn't STOP anything... it just impedes. It's more like carrying extra weight or supporting another person. That, in itself, does not induce failure. If you were arguing the "wall effect" then you would be right but it is just plain wrong. Depression does not make the person a failure, the person is simply a "failure" or "successor", long before they are diagnosed with depression.

To answer your question, what was I doing when I was depressed the answer was succeeding, but with more effort.

That isn't whining, nor was my first post. But you certainly created a scenario out of my text that you felt you could argue with, while leaving the points you must have had no solid arguement against alone.

I suppose my biggest problem is this; you are refering to people who are simply not depressed. You are refering to people who misuse the word and your arguement is therefore flaud. If you wanted to come on and rant about people who use the mental illness as a way to overstate unhappiness then that is fine but depression is, and always has been, simply a chemical imbalance. That is the one and only depression. You speak as if you can control depression, as if I stopped and looked at my "problems" (by the way I'm very happy, yet still depressed) I could solve them and no longer be depressed. THAT IS SADNESS, that is being upset and emotional. You need to seperate the two if you are going to make this arguement.

This is not a lack of open-mindedness, it is just simply the way my life is and it is a fact. Not arguementable, just fact. It is how I've lived my life. And I've grown up with lots of people who have used suicide /depression/anxiety as hoaxs, to gain attention or just misused the terms to describe something totally irrelevant to the actual term. Also, in the same vein, I am not standardizing you because I am reading what I see and what I see is no actual knowledge on the subject but an uneducated opinion. Is that not ignorance? Being uneducated and IGNORANT to the subject at hand?

It is ignorance. If it isn't then explain how you expect men and women to cure themselves, without medical attention, of an illness by simply "putting their emotions aside" or "taking care of their problems". If you are arguing that then you mideaswell state that people who have been badly injured in car accidents are failures because they should be able to fix their own problems by putting the fact the cannot move without assitance aside; those whiners!

I will again, just incase you decide to skip over them the first time, state my points:

1. there is exactly an opposite response to life, when depressed, then that of what you speak. It is NOT, and I repeat, NOT emotional. It is far from it. Depression's biggest weapon is just that... it steals that joy from you. Sadness, fear, happiness, horniness, excitement... and leaves you with a numb buzz. (NUMB, not SAD)

2. Depression is a mental illness, not a state of emotion.

3. Success does not depend solely on the health of the person; although, I agree, it can effect the chances. But depression is more of a burdon, then a stop sign.

4. the only case you speak of in your original post that is ACTUALLY depression is number (8)...

Please feel free to respond PROPERLY.

Thank You. PMF21

JinnKai...

I think you've pissed off a lot of people because you attempt to simplify that which is not simple. It must make it easier for you to understand but it doesn't do justice to those that suffer with these problems.

Having lived with a mother-in-law with a mental illness (bi-polar/manic/depressive) , along with an ADD father and then two boys that were bi-polar (probably a result of the previous two folks I mentioned), and with a shrink for a brother-in-law and a spouse, I've really had an opportunity to be exposed to and have a real motivation to understand mental illnesses. As a result, I can honestly say that you don't really have a clue and are just relating your opinions based on your own view of life. And I don't say that to be mean spirited, just that it appears that way to me, so I'm certainly not attacking you in any way, shape, form or fashion.

Instead of constantly attempting to defend your original position statement, it might be worth your time to take a moment and digest what others that know more than you have been trying to share with you. You are debating a topic that has many levels of emotional overtones and really isn't something you are qualified to debate based on what you have said. If you knew what you were talking about and could present a case this thread would have been much, much shorter and certainly wouldn't have jumped to a fourth page. Much of what you have said to defend your position has devalued those with serious physical (I say physical because chemical imbalances are physical) problems that they would give their right arms to be able better manage.

I would suggest that you take some time to red back through everything everyone has said and then do a little research on the subject. If you're really serious, go see someone to get a better understanding of this thing. Then come back and debate with a little more credibility.

And again, I'm not trying to attack you by what I said here, I'm only trying to convince you to be a little more open minded about the subject.

Jinn, your anger, hurt, and defensiveness in every single one of your posts stands out to me as the most significant part of this thread. I can't pay attention to anything you are actually saying, because all I hear is sheer negativity issuing forth from your mind. I can't really take you seriously until you respond in a more rational, more vulnerable, and less emotional manner.

EDIT: I'm aware that you're not the only one who is responding emotionally. But, from all those who have responded in that manner, they have 'fessed up and expressed their weakness. I have yet to see yours, since you seem dead set on keeping it under wraps.

I thought the title was probably an attempt at being provocative to draw in readers, but it seems you're actually serious about this, that you actually started a thread for the purpose of insulting people.

By the way, my diagnosis is 'major depressive disorder, mild to moderate, recurrent'.

After you were nice enought to call me a failure in your OP, how could I not?

Please, pray tell, what are these experiments of which you speak? Were they part of your clinical training in the treatment of depression and related disorders? Have they been published in peer-reviewed psychology or psychiatric journals? Can you link to an article, or at least an abstract?

You didn't try hard enough.

You know what I find insulting? Being called a failure because I have an emotional disorder brought on by twenty years of physical and sexual abuse.

Given that depression and its sister disorder social anxiety manage to suck much of the potential pleasure from my life, I'd say they're decidedly inconvenint.

How is depression an external source?

So the personal experience you have with never having been depressed somehow qualifies you to pass harsh critical judgment on those of us who have and insult us for having an emotional disorder? Do you going around mocking mentally handicapped people by calling them retards, too?

I get it. You're a better person than I am because you've conquered your emotional problems all by yourself, while I can't.

Gilda

maleficent,
you couldn't have said that any better PERIOD!

When I was in third grade, I made a comment about how I camped in the rain forest in Washington/Oregon area while on a vacation.

My teacher made an absolute fool out of me, saying that rainforests don't exist anywhere except in tropical environments, and it basically culminated in pretty much my entire class in tears from laughing so hard at my moronic comment, asking me about the number of monkeys and native tribes that I had seen in the "rainforest."

However, she apparently made a comment to another teacher about it and the other teacher explained to her that in fact temperate rainforests are what I was talking about, and they do exist. I don't know if she did more research on her own or whatever the case was, but the next day our lesson plan included learning about temperate rainforests and involved an apology to me.

My Point, JinnKai, is that even "teachers" need to open their mind and learn sometimes.

I don't exactly understand why, but you seem to have deemed yourself an authority - something that I find surprising, to say the least, with your utter lack of knowledge on the subject - but even so you're unwilling to change your mind at all. Throughout the entire thread, you don't concede that a single point in your original post was incorrect or at least up for discussion. Again, for reasons beyond me, you accept your opinion as indisputable fact. The most educated people in the world don't say that they are inequivically right about the most basic of things - what makes you think that you can do so? Especially when it comes to something as ambiguous as depression?

Nearly every other person that has posted in this thread - several with far more experience than what you have had - has disagreed with your sentiments. Still, instead of at least hearing what others have to say, you rigidly defend your original post.

To be frank, you come across as a egotistical moron with a holier-than-thou attitude that decided one day to make a broad based generalization while lying in bed one day and then relay that same generalization as fact.

I'm not trying to insinuate that you are that person, but perhaps if you adjusted the way you communicate or the language that you use - or even give people the false impression that you are at least considering their ideas - you might get a better response.

Meh, what do I know...

NoSoup...

I love your story. I'm a storyteller myself as I have found that it really resonates with many people. Keep it up!!

God how I hate to bump this thread, simply because it will inspire more people who haven't read this thread to read through, decide they disagree, and post their own unique reason for me being oh-so-wrong.

The only reason I'm posting again is I felt it deserved some finality. The reason you won't see many concessions in this thread is that I made the mistake of posting on a DICUSSION forum about something I didn't want to discuss. I wanted to preach, to tell people how I believed things were, to declare the "one true way" and not have it discussed or nit-picked. Selfish, I'll admit it. But so are most blogs -- thats why this would have been better suited as a Journal or a Blog, where high-and-mighty attitudes are just fine.

To me, this isn't an issue of learning. This isn't something I'm going to "open my mind to" or "learn about" or even need a pyschology degree to decide is right. It's something I believe in so strongly that I will NEVER change my mind.

With almost 2000 views and 127 replies, its apparent I ruffled some feathers. And so I apologize to those I've offended, those who feel I wasn't listening. I was, I just didn't realize at the time that I would never ever agree with you, because you were attacking my reason for living. If you were right, then why should I live?

The very reason that I live - that I perpetuate the existance of this flesh and fluid shell - is that I don't want to give up. It's my "religion." If I give up on something because I can't do it, don't think I'm smart enough, don't think I'm strong enough, don't think I have the skills - I die a little inside.

Giving up is the only failure that life has to offer. Fucking up a test in school -- that's not failure, that was bad planning. It was poor execution. It is motivation to better next time. Failure, to me, would be saying that I couldn't ever do better and I should give up. Or that I wasn't smart enough to take this class. Or any other fucking reason. They're all excuses, and they're all giving up. That it's not even worth trying again. And that's exactly what depression sounds like to me -- chemical or otherwise. TO ME, it's saying that "I give up -- it's not even worth trying to be happy. I'll just be depressed" There's absolutely no shame in asking for help, getting help, trying new things. Those are positive change, and they help you to get better. Refusing to ask for help when you're stuck, try something new when you're stuck - that's giving up and that's failure.

Yes, I know that's overly simplistic. But goddamned if it doesn't sound like failure to me. The reason I will never be depressed is that it would kill me inside that every second I stayed depressed was tantamount to giving up on myself. It's cliche, but every second is a chance to turn it all around and I feel like every second that I didn't spend bettering my position I'd be failing myself. That's fine if you don't, but I know there are a lot of people in the world who would benefit from a little ol fashioned DETERMINATION. I see so many people give up when they're so close to seeing the solution just because of self-doubt, self-loathing, or fear that they'll never accomplish.

And when those people finally decide "MOTHERFUCKING GOD DAMNIT IM GOING TO DO IT" -- they do.

In a previous post, someone noted that Winston Churchill suffered from depression. He did indeed, but he also said something in one of his speeches that resonates strongly with me and tells me that he wasn't a failure; he wouldn't give up and didn't accept depression as an excuse:

I don't know what more to say other than to suggest re-reading my initial post with THIS post in mind. You're still free to disagree, but I can guarantee that you won't change my mind.

I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm trying open your eyes to the fact you've made a false statement of if you are depressed it equals failure. In this last post you agree that Churchill was depressed and wasn't a failure.

You can't have it both ways.

What people have been agreeing with you, myself inlcuded, is that if you use anything like depression or anything as an excuse, then you have failed. You just can't seem to see that simple statement.

So are you going to change your subtitle to Lover - Protector - Preacher?

Fine.

If you are or are not a depressed person you may or may not be a failure dependant on any number of things, including but not limited relative other life successes which may or may not be relevant. You may or may not be a winner and similarly you may or may not be a failure. All actions that you perform in your life may or may not be failures. If, in fact, you believe you may be a failure it may or may not be related to depression, dependant on your interpretation, which may or may not be correct. You may or may not achieve success while under the effects of depressive episodes. All of these statements may or may not be true dependant on who you are or how you interpret them. All decisions on "failure" and "success" are not final, and ultimately subject to your own interpretation and belief. All Rights Reserved. The opinions presented herein are not representative of Tilted Forum Project or any of its subsidiaries.

That depends on your interpretation. Preachers are a subdclass of teachers, to me, because preachers teach. However, one could argue that teachers are preachers as well, depending on the individual.

JinnKai -

I apologize if it seems as though I am trying to throw your words in your face, that is not my intention.

However, I am going to try to bring to light several different things. I do not mean to insult you or try and make a fool out of you in any way, shape, or form, but I'd like to remind you of what I believe you consider to be your ideals.

First and foremost, you truly do seem to enjoy learning, and under ideal circumstances you realize that you are not always correct.

As seen with the addiction, you are capable of changing your mind on matters. To be honest, I don't really see much of a difference on your old view of addicts - you scoff at them - and your current view of depressed people. The difference, however, is that you suffered through computer addiction. Maybe you are even still addicted. In either case, your opinion did a 180 once you discovered what it was really like. As far as your depression was concerned, I'm not certain you were actually clinically depressed. Even if you were, you managed to get out of it without the help of drugs or therapy. Congrats - however, others obviously don't find it so easy.

I'm not certain why you deem yourself to be so knowledgeable about the subjects that you bring up, nor do I understand your zeal to "spread your knowlege to avoid the travesty of ignorance." The only way you can effectively teach is to first learn the material. Learning the material requires that you remain flexible and allow your opinion on matters to be changed when evidence points in another direction, especially in the case of depression, which is arguably one of the most understood ailments of the human condition.

I'd just like to remind you -

Keep an open mind.



http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=103835
http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showthread.php?t=90323

Why do you associate ignorance with disagreement? I can't fathom how if I disagree on depression as a disease it makes me stupid?

Pyschology is a lot like organized religion - there are correct ways of "thinking" and most pyschotherapy is just moving the person towards their desired way of thinking, within societal constraints. That said, I disagree with mainstream pyschological understanding of "diseases" like ADD, ADHD, and depression. That doesn't mean that I'm unedcated or have not taken the time to learn. The very fact that depression appears in the DSM adds support to my belief that it is a DISORDER, not a DISEASE. As such, there are different ways of treating said disorder.

You seem to associate strong conviction with ignorance. If anything, I think conviction INCREASES with knowledge.

And you misunderstood me here, too. My opinion didn't do a 180 at all.. I still think that addicts are failures, and I was ashamed to be one. That doesn't mean I somehow think that addicts are successes, as you'd propose I do with depression.

I don't associate ignorance with disagreement, necessarily. Also, ignorance does not make you stupid. I didn't mean to imply that I thought you were.

However, I do associate ignorance with unwaivering beliefs on a topic when there is so much scientific evidence that contradicts that belief. I'm certain you could show me a ton of referances contradicting what I just stated, as I could show you just as many reinforcing it. My point, though, is that some of the leading scientific minds in the world who have studied this problem with far greater verocity than you or I have still haven't come to a final conclusion - in fact, we are nowhere near it. Depression is an incredibly complex issue, and neither you nor I are qualified to really state anything with any certainty.

I apologize - I don't mean to associate strong conviction with ignorance. I'm also going to have to disagree with you as to how conviction increases with knowledge. There are many people out there that are absolutely convinced of incredibly false things. Although this is rather cliche, there were a huge number of people that believe the earth was flat with absolute conviction, and they were obviously ignorant as to the actual fact.

Perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't trying to insinuate that you had changed your mind on the success vs. failure facet of your argument, it just seemed to me that you had gone from scoffing addicts to actually empathizing with them - something it doesn't appear that you do with depressed people.

If you were truly and addict then, the adage is Once and alcoholic, always and alcoholic. So Once an addict always an addict. An alcoholic cannot do controlled drinking, as the same as a drug addict.

Maybe you had a problem managing your time with respect to computers.

Gees, this thread depresses me.

I guess I'm a failure.

Whatever.

Jinn: who firebombs their own thread?

TFP: I was of a mind to create a thread about a different controversial topic, but this answers in this thread has made me question whether TFP can handle a thread about something the average TFPer is going to disagree\take offense to.

I speak only for myself, of course, but I think the problem in this thread wasn't the topic. Depression is something that is a worthy topic of discussion. Heck, I talk about it with my therapist, my family, and in my journal on a pretty regular basis. It was the attitude, an OP that begins discussion by directly insulting people, and an attitude, by his own admission, that Jinn wanted only to preach at people and not actually discuss the subject.

Unless you were planning on directly insulting people with no intention of actually discussing things, I think the same issues likely wouldn't apply to your potential thread.

Gilda

exactly....

The fact is that you are so fucking unyeilding to this is whats frustrating for me; and I'm assuming, everyone else.

I have not, nor has anyone else, stated that you were ignorant in our disagreement. It is not a result of us DISAGREEING with you Jinn. It's that we disagree because you are ignorant.

Agreed, you are not a stupid man and you keep reposting this fact. That does not cure ignorance. No one is completely aware of every one of lifes variables or situations or objects; everyone is ignorant to something. You are indeed ignorant in regards to depression and how it is viewed. In fact I believe it's people like you that make life hard for teenagers and young adults who are trying to deal with this head on, making them feel obsolete because of something they cannot control.

No matter how you have formed your opinion, no matter how much you think your opinion is the shit, no matter how much you stare at yourself in the mirror and say 'i think I can, I think I can, I think I can!' in regards to your amazing opinion, it is still false and wrong. It is not debatable. It is a scientific fact. You are confusing theropy and an actual, prescribed physical treatment when you are talking about how psycology is a pseudo organized religion. Dude, you are just wrong. Don't be defensive, don't be sarcastic. I take pills that prove you wrong. if you disagree. What is the difference between a chemical treatment for cancer, or a chemical treatment for depression.

You're convinced that you are right. You are fighting for a flat earth that doesn't exist.

I'm sorry if I have come off as emotional and angry in the past few posts, for that I am sorry. I spent my whole high school career, as a leader of my high school, being tourchered by students who were just as ignorant as you, who thought it was ok to criticize my PHYSICAL (read it and let it sink in) disability and disease. People who take their time to take shots in the dark that hurt people and offend people make me a little bit, read "a lot a bit", sick.

Ignorance, my friend, is the fact that you are unaware of this one subject's ins and outs.

Swallow your pride, smile, and say sorry for posting something so obscenely offensive and ignorant, and I will feel far more calm, and therefore safe, to continue posting with you. Please :).

Thank you,

PMF21

This thread is crazy. i am glad that it is here to read, though.

opinions are different. and people like me learn.

Careful JinnKai. Your power and strenght are always built on values and beliefs. Frail subjective things that may fall from under your feet.

If a traumatic event in your life were to dislodge the "very reason that you live" in your model of reality, suddenly you can be asking yourself "whats the point" and before you know it depression sinks in.

This is the very same reason that your preaching will not convert some who are depressed. Some will be missing the key paradigm that makes oh-so-much sense to you.

So I'll re-iterate my previous point again. Why did you post what you did? Were you hoping to gather support? If so, expect only the converted to come to your side and as such there is no point in defending your view, it only inflames minds who dissagree with you - pointless don't you think? If you were hoping to educate...well, I think people have shown you why your post doesn't qualify there.

Cheers man.

I was reading an article about Warren Buffet and this quote was at the bottom of the article:

Is this a quote war now?

Destiny is not a matter of chance; but a matter of choice. It is not a thing to be waited for, It is a thing to be acheived.
-- William Jennings Bryant

To expect defeat is nine-tenths of defeat itself.
-- Francis Crawford

The greatest test of courage on earth is to bear defeat without losing heart.
-- Robert G. Ingersoll

Many a man has finally succeeded only because he has failed after repeated efforts. If he had never met defeat he would never have known any great victory.
-- Orison Swett Marden

What would you attempt if you knew you could not fail?
-- Robert Schuller

You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don't try.
-- Beverly Sills

And my favorites:

Defeat is not the worst of failures. Not to have tried is the true failure.
-- George E. Woodberry

I have not failed. I've just found 10,000 ways that won't work.
-- Thomas Edison

Always bear in mind that your own resolution to success is more important than any other one thing.
-- Abraham Lincoln


Accept that you're failing, and you can move on; decide that it's not a failure for X, Y, or Z reasons -- you're in DENIAL.

I guess so because you made it so. I just read the article and some reason thought of this thread when I got to the bottom part about failure.

You can read the whole article if you like.

Dude...none of these quotes - none - have anything to do with medical illness. Oh, sure, you have to believe you'll get well and all that, but if you don't, you haven't failed. It's just tough shit for you.

It is simply amazing that you can still try to turn a lost cause of yours into something else with a quote war. Anyone can Google the hell out of quotes and find tons of stuff. Means nothing. Cynthetiq was mearly trying to add a little something to put things in perspective but you obvioulsy couldn't see it that way.

It takes a big person to admit when they're wrong. You continue to show your size in this thread.

I whole heartedly agree with everything that's been said in this thread.

People who make sweeping generalizations are all idiots. :-p

Jinn, you might find your life a lot easier and richer if you can develop some tolerance for ambiguity. I simply don't have the energy to address the logical flaws in your OP, and your recent post indicates that you don't really have any interest in having your beliefs challenged. However, aside from your striking misunderstanding of the interwoven cognitive, emotional, and neurological aspects of depression, you seem to be subject to a very binary worldview (which, ironically, is one of the several cognitive distortions that can contribute to development of depression). If you can't loosen the laces on your mental corset, you're gonna be one unhappy and mostly wrong dude.

Jinn, I think you have some semantic flaws in your argument which have led you into arguing something different to what you originally believed. The problem appears to lie in your loose and vague uses of the words 'failure' and 'depressed'. Having firm convictions is great, but you need to know what you're actually convinced of.

'Failure' at what exactly? Unless you are, for example, an electronic component designed with a particular purpose, you cannot just 'fail', you have to fail at something. So we can understand somebody who is non-specifically a 'failure' to be somebody who typically fails at whatever they intend or are intended to acheive.

'Depressed' is a term which you seem to define very specifically, but then apply very loosely. Your argument seems only to describe those who use depression as an excuse for failure, but by your wording you have treated everyone who is depressed as being in this group.

So, if you mean that everybody who suffers from depression is defined by their lack of success, then how do you explain Churchill, Kafka, Newton, Goethe, Schumann, Luther and Tolstoy? And all these people? Whatever your opinions of these people, you cannot correctly brand them all as failures. Were they all in group 8? That's a fairly convenient get out for anybody who doesn't fit your argument. In fact if you use this excuse, you have closed yourself to refutation, which makes your post no better than preaching.

If you mean that people who are depressed have failed to be happy, then you haven't really said anything at all.

If you mean that people who use depression as an excuse for failure have still failed, or that there are some cases of depression which are best dealt with by 'pulling oneself together', then I agree, but this is not the same as saying 'If you are depressed you are a failure'.

I get the impression that you've got so hung up on defending the title of your thread, that you've lost track of what you were actually trying to say, but I'm quite prepared to accept that I have misunderstood if you are able to clarify what you mean.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You lost me at point number 4. A person IS their emotions. I'm REALLY damn good at sucking it up and moving forward, but that doesn't change the feelings of depression. Just means some people hide it better. Now, if you said that "If you let depression run your life and end up doing nothing because of it", then I would agree with you. But there are plenty of depressed people that keep pushing on. It's called life.

Holy shit, I've just tried twice to make a couple of observations and points only to find my session has timed out by the time I try to make my post. I should try and make some joke about my failure to post but if I spend too much time coming up with one my session will have expired again and my post will be lost again! What a failure I am!

Quick notes:
JinnKai maybe edit your OP to say you posted in the wrong place and don't want to discuss your post.
A person can have mood swings, and due to the high points of those swings know that they're not failures and know not to give up.
Why state something (in a discussion forum or anywhere else) that a) is true to people who don't need to know you agree with them or b) is insulting or closed-minded, especially since you refuse to discuss it? Don't wonder why so many people are being critical.

opinions are like assholes everybody's got one

Wow, JinnKai.... You've really chilled out in the last couple years. Congrats, dude.

You missed the hit it thread I see.

Wow, I can't believe how ridiculous I sound. I still agree with the basic principles found in my posts. But I sounded like an idiot. I'm still not a failure. I'm still depressed.

I'M SO DEPRESSED THAT I CANNOT READ THIS THREAD

so I think I'm a winner in that regard.

/wetfart

buhahahaha

I read more than I post. I read half-way down the first page of this thread and was going to reply when it dawned on me "hmm, this seems familiar". That's because it was/is. I am all for welcoming new members but I just don't understand resurrecting an old thread with a one line drive by...

Me agree's.

Ali

Oh even that Jinn is vastly chilled out over this Jinn.

I've had quite a few lessons in respect since then, at the very least.

:thumbsup:

Lol