EULA

Here's the link but you'll have to register to view it there.

I dropped out of college, and get harassed about not finishing A LOT. Now I have some basis for argument.

TM875

I think what this article is not looking at is the need for college. Yes, sure, Gates and Jobs dropped out. That's because they were so stunningly brilliant that college couldn't deal with them. Same goes for Einstein, who had issues with passing high school science - the standard way of thinking just wasn't working for him.

On the whole, though, college is a very, very good thing. Even ignoring the education/books side of it, college allows a giant new opportunity to network, learn new people skills, meet people who will be important in the future, and grow and develop as a person (and have a shitload of fun). It's irresponsible, and ridiculous, for any educated person to write that college is not needed.

Again, ignoring the educational benefits, the bachelor's diploma is the new high-school degree. Good luck getting any job paying higher than 35K a year without a B.A. or B.S. in something. Master's degrees are now basically required for anything mid-to-high profile.

Now, looking at the educational benefits, college teachers you a new way of thinking. It shows how one can approach a problem, learn about it, and solve it. Any major, in any department, will allow the student to see a problem differently than before (some more than others). To say that "forced" schooling is a problem, well sir, I think you need to re-align your ducks just a little.

Here's something that I learned in college - education leads to Economic Development. The more years spent in schools, the higher the income of the nation. On a micro scale, the more years in school that a person spends, the more their income and the greater the success in said person having smart, kids who have good futures of their own. Education is the building-block of success for the person throughout life and the nation throughout time.

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Janey

I have to echo what TM875 said. The recounting of the success of those drop outs serves to hightlight one basic fact. They are the exceptions that prove the rule. They are such high performers, that they were bound to succeed. indeed, they dropped out because they needed to follow their own path, regardless of what it was.

For each of their stories, there are hundreds of drop outs working for minimum wage and not even saving anything on a monthy basis, much less building equity. These success stories are like the NHL players, who make it, while the vast majority of players remain at the minor levels ( or baseball or basketball).

the important thing to keep in mind, is that global competition is leveling out the playing field in jobs too. if you want to maximize your opportunities, you need to extend your education to an appropriate level. that used to be high school, now in the information age, it is university. We may want to drop out along the way, because it is easy to give up. But if you have no other plan or option lined up, all you are doing is giving up.

There must be a plan that you are following, a reason for dropping out, otherwise why limit yourself?

Charlatan

There's also a big difference from an entrepreneur and a career employee... one needs a degree to get through the door the other can open their own doors.

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greeneyes

I'm a college drop out as well and now I have an awesome job. I am a bank officer/loan officer for the third largest banks in the country. I have amazing opportunities for growth and development and plenty of upward mobility.

Does it work for everyone? No, you definitely need to have other compensating qualities to make up for the lack in education.

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EULA

Looking back, the majority of my college experience was a waste of time, and (more importantly?) money. If I knew back then what I knew now, I would have taken clarinet and conducting lessons, music theory/sightsinging, piano, and that's it.

I'm looking into getting a die casting job (which pays A LOT better than pushing carts at wal-mart), and experience isn't necessary. They train you on what you need to know, and BAM! $500 paid weekly.

Switzerland has the highest per-capita incomes in the world, and most people there don't finish high school.
Why can't those things be learned before people go to college?

the420star

Education is one of those things you do... it betters you overall as a person and make you more well rounded... i can understand dropping out if you are hating it and cant pay for it. But at the same time if you arnt having trouble paying for it, or mom and dad are footing the bills or you just plan love learning... stick it out... college is great

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Hektore

Four year universities don't teach you much that is practical anyway, as in what you actually will be doing in a job. It's one of those things I keep hearing about when people talk about how worthless the American education system is. I know our college has these pamplets all over the place talking about how your major doesn't really matter, that you can get jobs in entirely unrelated fields from your major as long as your grades are decent, just goes to prove the point I guess. Employers don't really care what you learned, just that you're willing to work and can think a little.

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catback

College is a business and they advertise to promote the business. You don't have to go to a 4 year college to learn the things a 4-year grad knows. Surprising they never advertised that or not. I'm a person that was convinced by the advertising that college was the most important thing for success but having attended and worked in a job that required the degree I've come up with a saying concerning college "Dumb people go to college and waste money, smart people know college is a waste of money and don't go" I know people will debate this but in my own experience people with degrees aren't much smarter than people without. Of course with all rules there are exceptions to the rule, doctors for example need to have a college degree because they need on the job training by people in the field and medical school offers that.

With all that said I wish I didn't waste money on college.

Ustwo

I spent 14 years in school from the end of high school to where I am now. Obviously not all of it pertains to my job directly. What much of it does is help me think and understand. I am a doctor, and I deal with a lot of different issues.

I have to deal with pain, and if I didn’t understand the various theories I would not be able to explain why something hurts. It wouldn’t affect my job directly, but it would affect how patients react to the pain I sometimes cause. I would also not understand the gate theory of pain, so when a patient asked what I thought about acupuncture I couldn’t give an honest answer.

I have to deal with personalities. I don’t need psychology to do my job, but its sure nice to have. When I’m dealing with problem personalities, or fearful ones, it helps. It also helps knowing child development so I can better relate to children at various ages.

I don’t need to know world history, it doesn’t help me in my job. Its awfully nice to know the mistakes of the past when heading to the ballot box.

I don’t need to know Geography either. I’ve lived in the same area my whole life after all. Sure I have patients from around the world but who cares right?

Really while I’m making a complex diagnosis about a chronic problem which has caused someone great suffering over a period of years, all I need to know is what affects my field directly? Knowing how to think and organize your thoughts isn’t important is it?

I find that while most of what I have learned over the years, and I have forgotten more than most people learn in a life time, does not play any direct part in my life, I wouldn’t give any of it up ever. In fact I am constantly trying to learn new things in no way related to my field to keep my mind active, and continue to broaden my education.

Its easy to say ‘I’ll learn on my own.’ but most people won’t. College forces you to learn things that might not interest you on the surface, and even if you never use it in your job, I wouldn’t call it a waste of time.

I’ve found that most people who don’t go to or finish college when they could have had they wanted do so because they are either too lazy or too impatient. Most high schools do not teach you how to think, or how to organize, or a broad range of subjects. College is the one spot that may open your eyes to different approaches, different disciplines which you never thought of before. If your only reason for an education is to make money, then I really feel sorry for you, there is a lot out there beyond your paycheck.

Not going to college for most people means less opportunity, less money, and less job security. Sure some make it, some do great, but why limit yourself?

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jorgelito

Wow, Ustwo, nice post, one of your most eloquent.

I agree, but it's even simpler: There's something for everyone and there's a lot more than "knowledge" to be gained at college. If you don't want to go, that's fine. But if you do go, you can get as much or as little as you want. If you don't get anything out of it, well, that's on you, and not anyone else's fault.

Personally, I don't see how one couldn't get anything out of it unless you didn;t go to class at all for four years, and never ever left your dorm/living place, never attended any activities etc, etc. That would be a waste. If you couldn't even get anything out of college, how do you get anything out of life?

Either way, to paraphrase the article: "different strokes for different folks...(you know the rest)"

EULA

Ustwo: Schooling forces you to learn. I think that hurts people more than it helps. After writing my research paper about Poulenc (that I had to do); I found out that the knowledge I got out of it had only kitch value: he had a silver spoon all of his life, he was bisexual, and member of "le six". I worked on that paper and its research for almost a week if you add up all the hours, and that is all I got from it. No thanks.

Schooling operates like this: we are going to pound this information into your head for three months, you will take the test, and two weeks later you will forget 95%. If you'd ask me, I would say that that system is inefficient, expensive, and insulting to students, because there is an underlying assumption that "...if the school didn't make you learn, you wouldn't, you ignorant, lazy fuck."

But you could take the unschooled approach of only studying what you are interested in at the time. Pick it up in a week and retain the majority of the information for most of your life. And oh, the fun you will have! True, you might not come across Geography until 5 years after you would have had you went to college, but I think the unschooled approached is the preferable one.

Even while I was in college, I read about different things I was interested in at the time outside the bounds of school and my major. Guess what? I learned and retained A LOT.

There is a kind of chicken and the egg component to learning attitudes in America. Yes, if your average American finishes high school and doesn't go to college, he will not do any signifcant learning throughout the rest outside of his everyday experiences.

Some would say that's just human nature, but I would disagree. What I think is happening is that after 12 years of compulsory schooling, most people are taught that reading, writing, and learning is a punishment. Many times this is made completely explicit, because writing a book report is a part of a punishment for getting in a fight, getting out of your seat, etc. Following the rules is probably more important than the curriculum.

While in school, there is a privation of experience of dealing with people of different ages, of exercising creativity ("Sorry, Jimmy, but it's time for math" etc), and of just being plain-old curious. Without school, we would have a more intelligent, creative populace that learns, because discovery without compulsion is joyous in itself. "I read a book about Fascist Germany last week, and it was fun!"

When I was in k-12, I maybe read 5 books on my own. That's it. And thinking back, it's no wonder I was such a bad writer; the only reading I did was the garbage that passes as school books. In my mind, reading is what you did at school. When I went to college, it was the same old crap, but one day, in some freak chance I went with a friend to Barnes and Noble, I picked up a copy of Rogue States and I read for two hours. I was completely taken aback. I like reading. Who fucking knew?

Schooling is designed around a completely flawed understanding of why people learn. John Locke invented tabula rossa, and because of that I doubt he had any contact with children in his lifetime, or he was just plain stupid. Learning isn't shoved into people's brains, it grows inside them out of conscious choice and interest. Even learning to read is easy, but enormous problems arise when you make children learn how to read, or they are desperate to learn how to read in order to escape the humiliation of illiteracy.

Some would say that a government/industrialist conspiracy to keep people stupid was responsible for the schooling system we inherited, but even if there wasn't a conspiracy, things are exactly as they would be if such a conspiracy existed.

I could say more, but I must stop.

jorgelito

That's a good post EULA, you make a good argument for libertarianism. Which, oddly, I wouldn't really have known about if I wasn't in the American Political Philosophy class I'm in now. Ha, ha, that's sort of ironic?

I do see what you're saying. Funny how fun it is when you're reading what you want to and the time just flies, but if it's an assignment for school, then torture city! (generally speaking). I actually reading most things as I am rather laid back and easy going too.

So part of what you are saying is that maybe instead of compulsory education that's regimented and standardized, people should be free to "learn" what they want or whatever their parents want them to learn? I dunno, the current system isn't too terrible (for me that is).

cellophanedeity

I'm in school because I really really want to be. If I had the choice, I'd never leave. University is the right place for me, but I wouldn't say that it is for everyone.

In an ideal situation, people would learn what they wanted to learn and we'd get by on that. Of course, that's not the case though.

filtherton

I like school. I don't have the will power to learn that shit on my own. Even if i did, it is so much easier for me to learn from lecture than from a book. I also have the tendency to think i understand something when, in fact, i don't; it helps to have someone to set me on the right path.

Bill gates didn't go to college. So what? That doesn't mean college isn't worthwhile, it means bill gates didn't need it because bill gates is bill gates. I would bet money that if we were in some bizarro world where windows didn't take off, bill gates would have gone back to college.

Well said ustwo.

EULA

Is it entirely possible that this is a self-fulfilling prophesy? The schools make you dislike learning, so that you will be dependent on them for the rest of your life in order to learn and look successful. You then say you can't, so you won't.

filtherton

I am not motivated enough to teach myself such things. Maybe i could motivate myself, but from my own personal experience i know that i learn better in a scholastic environment. The schools don't make me dislike learning, i love learning, and i try to do it on my own quite frequently. Unfortunately, i have tried and found it quite difficult to teach myself any number of things of the math and science persuasions. Such things are easy to misunderstand and because of this benefit from the presence of someone who is an expert on the subject. Also, as someone working towards a degree in engineering i doubt i could reasonably get access to the kind of equipment needed for my education on my own.

raeanna74

I felt like the first two years of college were somewhat a waste of time. There were many classes that I already knew 90% of the information from my highschool's college prep classes. They only allowed you to test out of a miniscule portion of those basic courses. As for the more advanced courses. I have used MUCH of what I learned in those. Such as the classes 'Philosophy of Education', 'Educational Psychology', and 'Special Education'. These classes taught me a lot that I would not have learned in the field but gave me a background to lean on when I encountered difficulties while teaching. I agree some careers lend themselves to people who are more self taught and creative, while some are more structured. This article does not look at the more structured careers that require some extra education. I would NOT send my child to a self taught educator unless I could see that he/she had superior instint and experience. College is quite useless when it comes to the fast paced growth of computers and electronics. There are some basics about electricity that would benefit those in a technical field.

The biggest benefit of college is that it's obvious proof to employers that the applicant CAN finish a job. Someone who keeps going when the going gets tuff is what many employers look for. The fact that these other men did not finish college wasn't a matter of quitting when the going got tough but following their ambition and dreams.

Do what you have to in order to get where you need to be. Talk to others in the field you desire to work in and find out how they got there. Talk to employers that you interview with even when you get turned down and ASK them what they ARE looking for and how you can improve.

I wish the article hadn't just put down an education but extolled doing whatever is necessary (going to college or dropping out) to accomplish what you want and need to do.

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flat5

quote

The secret of jazz The Apostle Paul wrote again and again that salvation isn't about following the rules. We aren't going to find secular salvation today through observing the rules of yesterday. Alas, they are mainly what colleges teach. The best clue to what path to follow is hidden in our jazz.

Apple Computer is jazz, McDonald's is jazz, DreamWorks is jazz, the Super Bowl is jazz, comic books are jazz, block parties are jazz, bass-fishing derbies are jazz, the Williams sisters are jazz, Tiger Woods is jazz.

Over in China, the revered Shanghai Conservatory of Music, the oldest continuous music school on the planet, can't even believe the principles of jazz are real! That with enough courage and trust in yourself, you can hear a piece of music once, and ring dazzling changes on it forever and ever.

They can't duplicate our jazz.

un quote

He is not showing jazz music the respect it deserves by saying this.

His whole essay could be reduced to one paragraph.

The people he sites had great talent and/or worked very very hard.
Many people have reached great hights through education too.

School is not the only way to learn. Big deal.

muttonglutton

I think the article was a very one-sided view.

University is needed. Not everyone is an Einstein, a Gates or a Disney. In fact, most of us are Smiths, Joneses, Singhs, Garcias and Zhangs. We are the statistical average. We don't have what it takes to make it to a 7+ figure income on our own, with or without college. As individuals, they did. They had the IQ, or the business savvy, or just the grit and determination to do what it took.

For the rest of us, be we lazy, slow, or uninspired, we have either college or burger-flipping.

College trains the people who teach your kids, the people who design your buildings and those who sell them. They teach the people that fill those big buildings in your city's downtown core. I'd rather be one of those people than the ones that fill the factories in your suburbs. So I go to university. I concede that I will never make seven digits in a year.

I do agree with Gatto that university can squash people with more ambition, and more creativity. University teaches one train of thought, and that train isn't at all revolutionary. School will not teach these people how to take what they already have and turn it into a legendary success. What they need are the lessons learned on one's own, through life.

I would even go so far as to say that many of the successes Gatto talked about had the tools to take what they saw in life around them, and turn it into applicable knowledge. I would also say that the rest of us don't, not to the same degree, and so we go to College to get the simplified version of life. Boiled down and easily digestable.

So what I'm trying to say is... University is an Arrowroot cookie. Either that, or I'm just very hungry.

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Randerolf

As one with a love of knowledge, I find John Taylor Gatto's writings very interesting – as are his accusations facing government schools.

In the end, I find both sides to be very compelling. My educator friend would raise the point that liberal arts aspects of college offer new perspectives and questions to the student, which the person may have never had to encounter before – be it by laziness, environment, or some other factor.

Meanwhile, the words of EULA and others resonate in me as one who has always loved knowledge; there is nothing quite like leaving the library with an armful of books with the anticipation of learning something new and expanding my horizons. Some curse books and study, but I often find it enjoyable and necessary. I read Free to Choose by Milton Friedman of my own free will– however boring it may have been  - but I believed that it was important to have at glimpse of economics.

In the end, life is enriched by what you know about it. It may be a personality divide with artists, bohemians, entrepreneurs, and those who thrive on freedom and promethean action on one side; and those that need discipline, focus ( a clear path), and concrete results on the other.

(Sorry about trailing off, it’s a bit late )

Good posts everyone.

reiii

look at the top 25 forbes richest, the only thing that unites them is a lack of an elite ungraduate education (and more than Bill dropped out). That and they are all white men....

but anyway theres more proof that college isnt for everyone

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portereight

I wonder if the overlap with dropouts and Forbes 25 richest may have more to do with a shared independent attitude and an entrepreneurial spirit which led them to get off their butts and act on their ideas rather than pursue the "safer" route of a degree.
I think its a bit of a leap of logic to suggest that dropping out would lead to success.

filtherton

Look at the bottom 750,000 walmart employees, the only thing that unites them is a lack of an elite ungraduate education.

Sage

Man, personally I think that if you're upset with your current college you need to go to a Liberal Arts school. The things I learned at UNCA that had nothing to do with my major were what I really considered learning. Yeah, I got my degree, but while doing so I sat in interesting classes and had involved discussions about issues that affect me outside of the realm of my major. That's something that is important to learn- how does one relate to the world as a whole? That's something you don't learn in high school, and probably not in trade school or a traditional four year college. I feel that higer education teaches people to be more eloquent, and to open up their minds to new ideas. The argument that "because all these people who are now rich dropped out of college means that no one should go to college" is such a big fallacy I can't believe anyone would think it was a good argument. Because B happens after A doesn't mean B happens BECAUSE of A. Perhaps all these entrepreneurs got the ideas for their buisnesses in college, and then decided that it was such a good idea they'd go off and do it instead of waiting around for a degree. The beautiful thing about college is that you can go back anytime you want- it's not like high school where the goverment says you have to go.

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EULA

I doubt it. I think you'll find about 400,000 BAs.
I was not suggesting that. I was suggesting that not attending college isn't such a dire prospect.

EULA

I believe that genius is as common as dirt. The problem is that only about 10% of students can cultivate their genius inside a classroom. The bottom 90% will have to learn their place and stop whining.

filtherton

Genius may be as common as dirt, but then again, so is stupidity, ignorance, and incompetence. I know a lot of geniuses who can't be bothered with anything other than alcoholism. I know a few seemingly thoughtful people who can't seem to learn in any environment, let alone a collegiate one.

College isn't for every one, often times college is a relatively reliable means to an end. Going to college doesn't necessarily have to crush creativity, it only forces one to jump through hoops. College is good hoop jumping practice, and i would argue that anyone who isn't willing to jump through hoops, isn't really that motivated to do whatever it is they want to do(unless one's sole motivation is to not jump through any hoops). You don't necessarily have to enjoy or agree with all the things you learn, but chances are such things are useful at the very least for perspective.

The lack of a college degree doesn't necessarily doom one to an unfulfilling existence, but it is a fact that having a bachelor's opens a great many doors. All the genius in the world doesn't amount to anything if one isn't in a position to utilize it. Some people are trailblazers. Most people are not.

catback

College is a corrupt business that takes advantage of a corrupt society. Rating how dumb or smart people are by their education history is wrong. I've seen idiots with degrees and geniouses without. Everything learned in college can be learned outside of college. I attended college and learned what they had to teach, unfortunately most of what they taught I learned prior to college from self-learning means. If you want to follow the corrupt ways and get a degree to better yourself financially (as if most ppl would do it for another reason) then by all means do, however do not make the assumption that you are better in any way shape or form to someone without a degree.

I will say it again, from college I've learned "Idiots go to college and waste money while smart people don't"

Not that no one should go but make your own decision, just remember if you go, for every thing you learn in college someone has learned it outside of college...is it worth the cost?

Ustwo

Yea you know its all bullshit man, its corrupt and horrible I mean I'm sure I could have done DNA homolog research like on my own! All I needed was my own lab, a couple hundred thousand dollars of equipment, and about 10 years worth of self teaching. There was no benefit of having experts in the field all together in one place, and I'm sure had I just been self studying I would have come across the concept of differential brain growth, cDNA, polymerize chain reaction DNA replication, not to mention all the biochemistry used to isolate the selected strands!

Man I wasted all that time and money on a corrupt institution!

I guess I'm just an idiot, after all only idiots go to college.

/end sarcasm for the sarcasm detection impaired

The funny thing about self study, is that if it weren't for the Universities, most of the self study materials wouldn't even exist. So while for some people college is obviously a waste of time, for many it is indispensable. I would also argue for a VAST majority of those for whom college is a waste of time, it was a waste of time because they didn't take advantage of the resources, not because college itself was wasting their time.

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filtherton

I find that when we aren't talking politics i often agree with ustwo. What's up with that?

Sage

Personally I think people who bitch about college being a waste of their time shouldn't be there in the first place. College is school, and if you don't like school, you're not going to like college. Besides, it's not like anyone is holding a gun to your head and saying "you HAVE to go to college for four years." It's just a matter of what you want to do. If you want to be a jewelry maker, you can go to college, be self-taught, or apprentence. If you want to be a doctor, you can't exactally learn everything you need to know without going to college. If you have a really great idea, and know how to make it and how to market it, there's no reason to wait until you get out of college to do it- aka Bill Gates. College is always there if your great idea doesn't work out.

and as for Bill Gates not going back to college- if YOU had that much money, would you spend it on sitting in a classroom all day??

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keyshawn

From a high school graduate, who will attend a liberal arts college this fall

Why ? Because, I'll admit it - I don't know what I want to do with my life yet, although I love learning. I'm choosing to pay big bucks to take classes to find out what I would like to do and UsTwo stated, there's quite a bit of professions which you cannot enter to unless you have a college degree.
I'm not paying just for the education, but for the networking connections, social interaction, the work ethic and discipline it will impose upon me. Could I learn this other ways ? Maybe, but I'm thinking college will be good for me. If not, then leaving is a possibility.

And yes, for a brief time during my senior year, I considered not going to college and moving to Europe for a year; or going to college there. But, I humbly concede, that I nor most 18 year olds aren't ready [emotionally nor financially] to accomplish such a task. [ < or maybe we're just told that we aren't, and the teens actually listen]

One idea that the author states in the article, which I do agree with, is that you can succeed without college. That idea is constantly knocked down in society, but it's true.

One thing I wonder is this: A college graduate can go to an interview with a diploma and say "I'm knowledgable and the employer would probably agree. However, the guy w/o the diploma would say - I did this, or started this business, or would have to present some sort of emperical evidence that he is worthy of a job. If you disagree with me on this last point, check out the number of jobs which do require college degrees; unfortunately, many do; as well as require on the job experience as well.
All of the people in the Grotto's argument were self-made: they started their own business and/or were able to attain wealth through the performance arts.

catcha back on the flipside,
keyshawn

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EULA

ustwo: do you need an undergraduate degree to get into medical school?

source

Apple chief to grads: Glad I dropped out
Jobs tells Stanford graduates that his move forced him to be innovative
The Associated Press
Updated: 9:41 a.m. ET June 13, 2005

PALO ALTO, Calif. - Apple Computer Inc.'s CEO Steve Jobs told Stanford University graduates Sunday that dropping out of college was one of the best decisions he ever made because it forced him to be innovative — even when it came to finding enough money for dinner.

In an unusually candid commencement speech, Jobs also told the almost 5,000 graduates that his bout with a rare form of pancreatic cancer reemphasized the need to live each day to the fullest. "Your time is limited so don't let it be wasted living someone else's life," Jobs said to a packed stadium of graduates, alumni and family.

Jobs, wearing sandals and jeans under his robe, was treated like a rock star by the students, in large part due to the surge in popularity of Apple's iPod digital music player. A group of students wore iPod mini costumes over their robes and several students shouted, "Steve, hire me!"

Jobs, 50, said he attended Reed College in Portland, Ore., but dropped out after only eight months because it was too expensive for his working-class family. He said his real education started when he "dropped in" on whatever classes interested him — including calligraphy.

Jobs said he lived off 5-cent soda recycling deposits and free food offered by Hare Krishnas while taking classes.

He told the graduates that few friends could see the value of learning calligraphy at the time but that painstaking attention to detail — including mastering different "fonts" — was what set Macintosh apart from its competitors. "If I had never dropped out I might never have dropped in on that calligraphy," Jobs said.

Jobs also recounted founding Apple in his parent's basement and his tough times after being forced out of the company he founded when he was only 30. "I was a very public failure and I even thought about running away from the valley," Jobs said.

Instead, he founded Pixar Studios, which has released enormously popular films such as "Finding Nemo" and "Monsters, Inc." "It was awful tasting medicine but I guess the patient needed it," Jobs said.

When he was diagnosed with cancer, Jobs said his doctor told him he only had three- to-six months to live. He later found out he had a rare, treatable form of the disease — but he still learned a tough lesson. "Remembering you are going to die is the best way to avoid the fear that you have something to lose," he said.

Before the ceremony, a plane rented by the Computer TakeBack Campaign, an environmental group, flew over the stadium with a banner that read: "Steve, don't be a mini player — recycle all e-waste." The group is prodding Apple to improve its efforts to recycle obsolete electronics.
Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Sage

Wait wait wait... am I the only person who noticed that the reason Steve Jobs said he dropped out of college was because it was too expensive? So.... he had a reason for dropping out OTHER than "college sucks, I can learn this $hit elsewhere"?

And yeah, you have to have an undergrad degree to get into med school EULA. As far as I know from all my friends who are going to med school.

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Ustwo

Interesting, he dropped out, but still attended classes, so I guess college was not a waste, just paying for it

And ya you need a undergrad degree. There maybe some accelerated programs out there where you only need an associates degree and you get your undergrad degree while in school but those are few and far between.

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Zeraph

First, as for the on going argument, I agree with Ustwo. However, I can see it from EULA's perspective somewhat as well. As others have said, the first two years of college (at least at a uni) are way over priced, but there is a simple solution, go to your local community college to get an associates, then transfer to a uni. When you get your diploma its no different than if you went there all 4 years. CCs are way way cheaper and smaller class sizes for the exact same education (excepting maybe yale or something, I dunno).

They really do seem to rip you off though, my college's tuition just went up 10%.

While a good prof is worth the money, most often you get crappy ones that just read PPs off of the outline from the book.

So I can see it from both sides, up until your third year of college--and even then sometimes beyond when you get a bad prof--you wonder why you even bother going to class and I suppose it could "stifle" creativity.

I could say more, but most of it has already been covered.

EULA

The paying for the program was a waste. He only attended/paid for classes he was interested in, doing what a lot of homeschoolers do now.

Ustwo

Because of athletics my sister is being homeschooled, but is constantly tested with some online school set up.

Others in her sport are being 'homeschooled' as well and are so patheticly far behind their age group its criminal. Dumb as a box of rocks as they say. Learning on your own doing what you are interested in is NOT for everyone.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

EULA

Do they enjoy what they're focusing their life on? That's what's important. An education isn't going to guarantee a box of brains or a wage-free working life. Whatever deficiencies they lack and want to amend, they will.

What's this whole "behind" business anyhow? Norming is unnatural and creates value judgements that lead to elitist snobbery. And from what I've read, most homeschoolers are behind their schooled counterparts in elmentary school, in league in junior high, and ahead in high school.

Patience, young grasshopper.