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Old 10-27-2004, 11:41 AM   #1 (permalink)
Crazy
 
Location: Houston, Texas
Recessed Can Lights - Electrical

hey guys...

i have a 2 story home that im looking to remodel a little.

i have a dinky flourscent fixture in the kitchen and would like to replace it with like 4-6 or so 6" recessed light cans. the home is 2 story so i know i will not have access above the ceiling so it seems i will nee to use the Remodel style type cans.

does anyone have any pointers or experience in installing these types of lights. it seem fairly clear cut hookup wise. i just may have to drill through some joists in order to place the cans where i want them etc.

i think one of my main concerns is how many lights can i safely put on that one line. the existing fixture only runs two 4ft flourescent bulbs. i guess i wont really know until i can determine what guage wire is used on that existing fixture....
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:44 PM   #2 (permalink)
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What size is your kitchen? How much light are you looking for? I draw houses for a living, & when laying out an electrical plan the rule we use is 6 cans per line, as far as install go's, can't help much there. Also The light you will get from the recessed cans won't be very bright, so the more the better.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:49 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
heres a small pic of it.... before the remodeling we have been doing...



the 4ft light is above the island... cant see it in the pic though.

6 cans would be nice.
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:01 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
roughly 12'x22' wall to wall
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Old 10-28-2004, 03:02 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Don't cut into any joists unless you know and understand exactly what the building code says about topic. Notching or boring through a joist lowers its carrying capacity. You could end up with strutural problems.

But consider this: Do the light actually need to be cans? Perhaps some smaller halogens that are aimable would work, too. You could place the fixture to avoid the joist and then point the light to where you wanted it.

Maybe you should cruise by Handymanwire USA or the Breaktime forum at finehomebuilding.com and ask a few questions there. You'll get good answers from longtime DIYers and pros.
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Old 10-28-2004, 03:33 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Location: Austin, TX
Whatever you do, make sure you get top hats to keep insulation away from the tops of the lights. Your gonna want at least 8 inches in all directions and no insulation above the lights, otherwise you'll end up with them overheating or starting a fire.
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Old 10-28-2004, 04:46 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
good info guys!!

i will definitely check out that forum as well...

man this remodel is wearing me down... i need rest.
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Old 10-28-2004, 06:03 AM   #8 (permalink)
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if there is insulation there, there is special recessed lighting that can be placed with insulation around it. You can buy them at Home Depot, easy to find too, they are about 50% more than regular recessed lighting.
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Old 10-28-2004, 01:14 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Location: ohio
The can lights you want for insulation are called IC. We use them regardless of insulation or not because they are cheaper than non-IC. In general, we keep about 6 cans per switch/circuit.

Joist cutting is bad joo-joo so, don't even think about it. If your cans won't line up perfectly, then readjust them.

Home Depot usually has "Contractor pack" can lights which consist of six can lights and six trim rings. They are alot cheaper to buy together, rather than seperate. If you have to, ask for them, because it can be a savings of over $20 bucks if they have them in stock.
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Old 10-28-2004, 01:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
THANKS!!!

i really need to get up there and pull down the existing fixture so that i can see which way the joists run... that will definitely help me figure out where and how many i can add...

i went to Home Depot last nigth and decided on those IC cans u mentioned because of the added safety...

thanks agin for the info! i really appreciate it.
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Old 10-28-2004, 02:49 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Location: ohio
Couple little tips based on the kitchens we've remodeled. Always put one or two can lights above areas you'll be working in frequently, i.e. fridge, stove, sink.

Track lighting or pendents above your island. Can lights are meant as direct downlight and don't necessarily creep into every area that you'd think they would.

Undercabinet lighting: It helps more than you would think and isn't hard to put in if you haven't already put up your cabinets.

Did you remove the soffits above your cabinets during your remodeling? If so, we've put rope lighting in the open areas above to give an ambient sort of lighting to the room.

Any other help that you would need, PM me.
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Old 10-28-2004, 03:16 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Location: Austin, TX
Even with the IC lights, you still want to clear insulation back a bit. Trust me on this one, I spent a couple days digging thru a foot of blown in inuslation searching for recessed lights when there was a problem with them. It was not fun.
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Old 10-28-2004, 08:06 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually, if there is a second floor above the kitchen, there should be no insulation.

If there is insulation, you want it around the can to prevent air infiltration into the room. Make sure you install them correctly and you'll never have to touch them (aside from light bulb changes) again!
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Old 10-28-2004, 09:29 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Location: Austin, TX
Quote:
Originally Posted by xwesleyx
Actually, if there is a second floor above the kitchen, there should be no insulation.

If there is insulation, you want it around the can to prevent air infiltration into the room. Make sure you install them correctly and you'll never have to touch them (aside from light bulb changes) again!
If there is a second floor, there should still be some sound-proofing insulation. If there isn't you'll want the top-hat, its a foil barrier that keep sthe insulation from touching the metal on the lights, as they tend to get kinda hot. Trust me on this one, I installed insulation for the largest insulation company in the world for a couple years.
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Old 10-29-2004, 07:55 AM   #15 (permalink)
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You might want to consider track lighting and use halogen flood track lights-the small ones. It should look nice and there are lots of varieties of them to choose. Shouldn't be anymore expensive than the can lights. Are you putting the cans all over the kitchen? or just over the island? Maybe do the track lighting over the island and the cans over the sink area and the cabinet perimeter.
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:23 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Location: dfw - texas
very good electrical info site:

http://www.selfhelpandmore.com/
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:51 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Location: ohio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irishsean
If there is a second floor, there should still be some sound-proofing insulation. If there isn't you'll want the top-hat, its a foil barrier that keep sthe insulation from touching the metal on the lights, as they tend to get kinda hot. Trust me on this one, I installed insulation for the largest insulation company in the world for a couple years.
I'd say that virtually 95% of homes built ever don't have insulation for sound. Only recently has that become anything that a homeowner might consider and even then, it's not installed very frequently. As for the can lights, IC cans are MADE FOR CONTACT WITH INSULATION. The housing is insulated to control the heat.
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Old 10-29-2004, 08:56 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Not to discount other posters, but in all the years I've been doing remodeling, insulation between 1st and 2nd floors would be something I've not seen. I'd open the ceiling and only buy IC cans if insulation is present.

To address the issue of holes in solid sawn members, the rule of thumb is to avoid the top 1/3 of the member (it's in compression) the bottom 1/3 of the member (it's in tension) and make a hole no greater than 1/3 the total dimension, centered on the midline. Therefore, with a 2x8 floor joist, the maximum penetration would be 2.5", or 1/3 the dressed depth of 7.5"

Unless the house is turn of the century old, the branch circuit feeding the kitchen fixture is 14AWG, rated for 15 amps. Find the circuit, and determine if it feeds anything else in the dwelling. Then, start with (120 x 15 = 1800). Derate that by .8 to reach 1440 which is the safe wattage draw for the circuit. Deduct the wattage of any other fixtures on the circuit. If the kitchen lighting is all by itself, 6 cans with 150 watt indoor floods is well within the circuit ampacity, and a heckuva lot of light, too.
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Last edited by kazoo; 10-29-2004 at 08:58 PM..
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Old 10-30-2004, 06:40 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Location: Austin, TX
Dunno where you guys live, but soundproofing between floors is done in 100% of the houses here. Its included in the quote directly from the company. Also even IC lights are required to have the foil protective top hats by electrical and fire codes here.
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Old 10-31-2004, 08:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Listen to Kazoo, he's setting you straight.

If someone suggests that you can squeeze out a little more light by using compact fluorescent lights in your down cans, but don't do this to to get around your power rating. That is, only install the number of cans that can fit on that line using the max rating of the can.

Even though you will not be pulling a permit for this work, there is very good reason for the code. For instance, if you find that you could put nine or ten cans on a line by using compact fluorescents, and someone comes behind you and replaces them with conventional tungsten, the results could be lethal. And even if you were not found out and prosecuted, it would be on your conscience.

Use the fluorescent for the savings in energy and heat, but go by the code!
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Old 11-01-2004, 08:10 PM   #21 (permalink)
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DO NOT CUT YOUR JOISTS!

just a suggestion but how about something like 3 cans on each side of the island and then hang 3 pendant lights over the island.

also, i guess it depends on who built your house but i have seen floor joists with and without insulation.
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Old 11-02-2004, 05:20 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
jobu, i definitely like that suggestion.... what would be good too is to have the pendant lights and the cans on two different circuits so that they can be turned on/off indepedently...

great suggestions!

also, i wont be cuttin joists... consequences are too scary... hehe
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Old 11-02-2004, 02:53 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Location: Toronto
I am really curious.....

How were you planning to pull wires with the finished ceiling still in place?

I can understand how you can run wires in the space between the joists, but how exactly were you planning to run them transverse to the joists?

Unless you want to cut drywall out.

Also, I have never seen insulation between the first and second floor unless there is underfloor hydronic heating in place. Sound usually isn't too much of an issue.

But if there is insulation, then you need to keep the insulation off of the fixtures.

I would suggest the mini-floods (in either incandescent or halogen) as opposed to the big honking 4" 150 watt floods from 1982
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Old 11-03-2004, 05:23 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
well first off i have to actually see which way the joists are running... hehe. the tile guys are in there now and we wont be able to walk on the floor til tomorrow at the earliest.

like u say, i doubt theres insulation up there at all. the flooring is tongue and groove and there are a couple of spots up stairs that i can barely thru and its wide open... mind you this area is on the othere side of the house, not on top of the kitchen.

i have seen websites state that in order to run light in transverse joist bays, that it is ok to bore a small hole in the joist in order to run the wire thru etc... who knows.

in fact, maybe i will luck out and the joists are running perpendicular to the wire from the switch to the fixture. if thats the case i should already have a way to fish more line thru them... we'll see.

hopefully i can get a much better look at it this weekend and see what i will have on my hands...

thanks again!
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Old 11-03-2004, 09:17 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Location: ohio
Drilling holes for wires in joists is Ok. You just can't take large chunks of the wood out.
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Old 11-06-2004, 11:18 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Location: geff il
id say the joist runs the short route of the room the 12 foot way. its verry hard to get a joist to go 20 plus feet. just for the info. there is also wire right there already from the floureecnt light.. i guess your gonna want the light to do the whole kitchen. i saw so many people say dont cut or drill the joists this is only partialy right.. absolutley dont cut but it is not going to hurt anything to drill a 1inch and smaller hole for romex to go where you want. get a fish tape or a stout wire and feed thru the holes you want if your not going to tear down the whole celing. if you are seems like alott for just 6 lights tho. just wreck it all.....
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Old 11-10-2004, 12:19 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Location: cali
that's really informative kazoo. question tho. what are the numbers 120 x 15? basically where are they from and why are those numbers significant

Quote:
Originally Posted by kazoo
Not to discount other posters, but in all the years I've been doing remodeling, insulation between 1st and 2nd floors would be something I've not seen. I'd open the ceiling and only buy IC cans if insulation is present.

To address the issue of holes in solid sawn members, the rule of thumb is to avoid the top 1/3 of the member (it's in compression) the bottom 1/3 of the member (it's in tension) and make a hole no greater than 1/3 the total dimension, centered on the midline. Therefore, with a 2x8 floor joist, the maximum penetration would be 2.5", or 1/3 the dressed depth of 7.5"

Unless the house is turn of the century old, the branch circuit feeding the kitchen fixture is 14AWG, rated for 15 amps. Find the circuit, and determine if it feeds anything else in the dwelling. Then, start with (120 x 15 = 1800). Derate that by .8 to reach 1440 which is the safe wattage draw for the circuit. Deduct the wattage of any other fixtures on the circuit. If the kitchen lighting is all by itself, 6 cans with 150 watt indoor floods is well within the circuit ampacity, and a heckuva lot of light, too.
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Old 11-10-2004, 03:50 AM   #28 (permalink)
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120 volts and 15 amps for the circuit protector (fuse, CB).

You might want to toddle over to handymanwire.com and ask some questions in the electrical forum.
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Old 11-10-2004, 05:15 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Location: Houston, Texas
Quote:
Originally Posted by james t kirk
How were you planning to pull wires with the finished ceiling still in place?

I can understand how you can run wires in the space between the joists, but how exactly were you planning to run them transverse to the joists?

Unless you want to cut drywall out.
well i checked last night and the joist are set at like 20" centers or so and they run in the short 12' direction..

what i plan to do is cut out the holes for the cans in all of the spots i want. more than likely the wire will have to run thru 3 joists to get from the center of the kitchen to the spot near one side. that means that i will have to fish the wire thru one open joist bay without having access to it.

start at one opening in the ceiling, use a long flexible drill bit to drill thru the first joist and then let that hole guide the bit to the second joist. then i will prolly have to drill the third joist from the other hole in the sheet work where the wire is going to.

then use 2 fish tapes and an extra person, i will run one fish tape thru 2 holes and he will run it thru one. trey to get them to "catch" each other and then pull one of the fish tapes thru all of the holes. attach wire and then pull it back thru all of the holes again...

i know it sounds easy but it will prolly be a major task to undertake!!! hehe
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Old 11-11-2004, 03:23 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Location: Toronto
Quote:
Originally Posted by abel
well i checked last night and the joist are set at like 20" centers or so and they run in the short 12' direction..

what i plan to do is cut out the holes for the cans in all of the spots i want. more than likely the wire will have to run thru 3 joists to get from the center of the kitchen to the spot near one side. that means that i will have to fish the wire thru one open joist bay without having access to it.

start at one opening in the ceiling, use a long flexible drill bit to drill thru the first joist and then let that hole guide the bit to the second joist. then i will prolly have to drill the third joist from the other hole in the sheet work where the wire is going to.

then use 2 fish tapes and an extra person, i will run one fish tape thru 2 holes and he will run it thru one. trey to get them to "catch" each other and then pull one of the fish tapes thru all of the holes. attach wire and then pull it back thru all of the holes again...

i know it sounds easy but it will prolly be a major task to undertake!!! hehe

Hmmm,

Depends on the diameter of the can.

If it is 6", you may be able to sneak a right angle drill into the cavity you cut for each can and drill into the adacent joist.

But that third joist is going to be damn hard. I can only think that you could use a drill extension, on top of an extension. Drill the hole (if possible) then run a fish from either side and try to "connect" with the third hole, then catch the opposite fish.

good luck
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