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Old 08-06-2004, 01:43 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Making good grades- is it a skill or a gift?

I've always been a B student, at best. And lately I've been wondering- a lot. People are always telling me how smart I am, but it makes me wonder if I really will be able to make an A.

What makes a good student?

I always remember song lyrics or the plot line from a movie, so why not a chemistry formula or how to solve mathematical equations? Sure, I can solve the rubik's cube and figure out how to play songs by hearing them, but why can't I distinguish a verb from a noun?

What makes a good student? Is it something that anyone can acquire with the right attitude and right mindset and the habits? Will I be able to make the leap from the 2.5 in highschool to the 3.7 that I want?

Or do you believe that there are just smart people who are inheriently able to remember things better and do well in school?
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Old 08-06-2004, 04:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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I truly think that with a lot of effort in your studying, a student that fails with an F constantly can become an A student. I've done it myself. Before highschool I was getting D's and F. So when I went into highschool I buckled down and study my ass off.
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Old 08-06-2004, 05:24 PM   #3 (permalink)
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I think that part of your confusion with yourself is that a good memory has very little to do with intelligence. Or perhaps a better way of saying that is that there are many different types of intelligence. Chemistry and mathematics are not about memorization. They require the ability to construct logical arguments out of relatively few memorized bits of information.

As for whether anyone can get A's, that depends on what you're doing. In most highschools, I think that most could do it with enough self-discipline. I don't think the same is true of a difficult university curriculum. Some people have the skills and some don't. Personal motivation and an ability to focus will get you far, but there's a limit. And everyone's limits are different.
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Old 08-06-2004, 06:54 PM   #4 (permalink)
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My parents always stressed this and the difference in abilities to learn.

My dad, back in his college days, had a roommate. The guy would never study but still got perfects on all of his tests. He barely even read the book for the class. Meanwhile my dad would study for 3+ hours a day and still only get a B.

The difference was that the other guy could learn anything very quickly, and retain it, while my dad had to practice it to even get the basic idea.

Also from what you've mentioned you sound to be a more of an artistic person. I forget which half is which, but one half of the brain handles math and sciences while the other is atristic with creativity and the like. If you're more one side the other will most likely be weaker. I've seen both ways in many people. That engineer who can't solve a problem without an equation, or the artist who can barely add.

I think you really just need to find a good way to study. Find out what helps you best to learn something (repetition, association, whatever) and try learning everything that way.
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Old 08-06-2004, 07:28 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I get C's when I don't try at all. When I half ass try I get B's so I am aware that if I really applied myself I would get an A.
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Old 08-07-2004, 12:29 AM   #6 (permalink)
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As far as left brain versus right brain, you seem to be right brain dominant. You're doomed to a life of being artistic and creative in a world that wants you to meet deadlines and crunch numbers.

The thing that makes a good student is not knowing everything, but understaning how to give back exactly what teachers want to hear and kissing ass like it's second nature.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:06 AM   #7 (permalink)
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That's pretty true, MrSelfDestruct. I've gotten to the point that when I read through the text, I can say to myself, "This will be on the test. That won't be on the test."

The deeper I get into college, though, I'm happily recognizing that the instructors are more focusing on the big picture rather than minute details. As someone who almost never studies, my strategy has been to become familiar with concepts and themes.

With a strong grasp of the subject at hand, the details tend to work themselves out when it comes test time.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:14 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
As far as left brain versus right brain, you seem to be right brain dominant. You're doomed to a life of being artistic and creative in a world that wants you to meet deadlines and crunch numbers.

The thing that makes a good student is not knowing everything, but understaning how to give back exactly what teachers want to hear and kissing ass like it's second nature.
I realized this sad fact towards the end of my Senior year english class. My papers with original thought got average grades, and my papers which parroted the teacher got near perfects. I stopped trying to be insightful and simply wrote papers on what the teacher said in class; my grade skyrocketed sadly.
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Old 08-07-2004, 01:20 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Hmm, okay here's me.. from Malaysia so.. the syllabus and examinations a bit different..

Of course, always wanted to be the top boy but it was always out of reach in the 9th grade. But after that when I was in the 10th .. somehow showed some amazing leap and became like 3rd 4th 5th. Different ways of studying, different subjects, I went into science stream. With hard work and a lot of sleepness nights due to study, scored well and got 2nd.

Conclusion : hard work makes a good student
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Old 08-07-2004, 04:11 AM   #10 (permalink)
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I absorb information quickly and It sticks around in my head for a pretty good while. I don't know alot things I would have learned later in highschool because I dropped out(wish I hadn't now) but I still think that it would have been easy for me to pick up. I aced my GED last year without studying. I remember my counselor telling me I wasn't being challenged enough. My slacker friends would get mad at me because I was slacking. ALOT of people were disappointed because I wasn't trying in school. People would always tell me "You could do so good if you just tried." I figured they said that to every slacker, but it was true. I think if I had put the tiniest bit of effort into school I could have been top of my class, but of course I was too naive then.

To answer your question, Yes some people can learn and understand things better and with less effort, but hardwork will also get you to your goal. If you're having trouble understanding something, talk to your professor and ask him/her if they have any advice on how you can do better in their class.
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Old 08-07-2004, 10:53 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Take a couple of learning style inventories. With just a little searching you'll find some online. Some will even tell you what works best for different learning styles based on memorizing etc.

It also, helps to try and figure out what type of learning style your teacher is. That way you can tailor your papers, and in class responses to what floats your teachers boat.

Effort is way more important that intelligence in getting grades. Note that I said getting grades, not understanding the subject. I know kids who barely understand what is going on, but have figured out the class and do everything- extra credit, tell the teacher- "nice lecture", buy them a x-mas gift and somehow end up with a good grade.

More often then not it's an exercise in hoop jumping, endurance, and creative ass kissing.
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Old 08-08-2004, 02:12 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Well, I think it is a bit of both. Almost anyone can remeber something with near perfection, as long as it intrests them. Think about how many movie lines you can recall off the top of you head or how many songs you know by heart. The key is training yourself to keep that retention with things that don't intrest you as much. Some people are better at naturaly, but I think anyone can train themselves to that point if they really work at it
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Old 08-08-2004, 01:20 PM   #13 (permalink)
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In the past i naturally get good grades without revising at all and basicly slacking, some people can get away with it, but i think with enough studying anyone can get good grades, some people just get an headstart in the learning department over others
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Old 08-09-2004, 07:46 PM   #14 (permalink)
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It's best to remember that Teachers teach to a bell-curve type coverage, they try and get the highest grades from the entire class.

There is always the 5% that falls outside of 6-sigma.. 2.5% are smarter and not being taught / challanged properly and likewise the bottom 2.5% are not being taught properly.. Well thats my excuse and I'm sticking too it..
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Old 08-10-2004, 11:31 PM   #15 (permalink)
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You also have to remember that you listen to songs hundreds of times - its not surprising that lyrics stick, but most people don't read the text book that often...
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Old 08-11-2004, 01:05 AM   #16 (permalink)
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My dad always tells me it's how much you study. he said he wasn't the smartest guy in MIT while there but he studied his ass off. i'm talking bout sleeping every other night and not going to sleep ever before 3... he finished his undergrad and master in 4 years. graduated top 3 of his class. well, i think it requires bit of initial intelligence but how much you study definately counts. the attitude with which you study also matters a whole lot~
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Old 08-11-2004, 03:48 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by spindles
You also have to remember that you listen to songs hundreds of times - its not surprising that lyrics stick, but most people don't read the text book that often...
That is a great point that I never considered. I always thought song lyrics were easy to remember because the music itself is a mnemonic device. There are people who have memorized huge passages from the Bible or parts of other texts because they had read them so many times.

Maybe intense, repetitive studying can help...
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Old 08-11-2004, 09:38 AM   #18 (permalink)
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Our brains are hardly used to the max. I forgot the percentage of our brain usage.. but it's about 10% or less I think.

So consider that Einstein was of course, using much much more of his brain.
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Old 08-11-2004, 02:43 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally posted by xeem
Our brains are hardly used to the max. I forgot the percentage of our brain usage.. but it's about 10% or less I think.
That's an old wive's tale. Your brain doesn't have a fixed capacity though. Studying enough will improve it. To a point.
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Old 08-13-2004, 04:27 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Study is good, you can do it, believe in yourself, and the Force will guide you...

this from an A+ student...

1 day till the MCAT!
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Old 08-13-2004, 04:57 AM   #21 (permalink)
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to me a more interesting insight is do you want to go along with the program. do you want to remember things from rote (?) do you want to get good grades by spitting out what the teacher thinks. do you want to the play the game.

i realize to get along in society and to be successful by society's standards you need a good education. but is this a good education. are you being taught to think independently, to have original thought.

maybe my thoughts don't belong here because you just want to know how to get good grades. but i'm asking is that the goal.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:18 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Re: Making good grades- is it a skill or a gift?

Quote:
Originally posted by gdr2004
What makes a good student? Is it something that anyone can acquire with the right attitude and right mindset and the habits? Will I be able to make the leap from the 2.5 in highschool to the 3.7 that I want?

Or do you believe that there are just smart people who are inheriently able to remember things better and do well in school?
There are both kinds. My roommate in law school studied every waking hour, made outlines for every day's class, and was Valedictorian.

I rarely went to class, never studied, and read the entire text and a friend's notes one week before exams. I had a 3.5 avg and was the youngest graduate in the history of Univ. of S. Carolina law at 22 years 2 months in age.

The moral is that some people are good students because they know the material through studying. Some people are good students because they intuitively know how to solve problems. A cursory understanding of the material will give these people the edge.
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Old 08-13-2004, 05:34 PM   #23 (permalink)
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I think it just depends on the person. I never study unless it's the day before (sometimes the day OF) the exam. Ever. Never, EVER study. I hate it. It's boring and I don't like doing it.

I'm one of those people who sit in class like "what the FUCK are this professor talking about?" while everyone is like "oh I understand!" and are answering questions that they ask and everything. They make 60-70% on the exams and I make a 95%.

My GPA is 3.67 cumulative, I've never studied outside of a test.

If I studied I am fully confident I could have a 4.0 GPA......but to me, it's just not worth it. I'm too lazy


I guess what I have is a gift (being able to learn 6 chapters in one night). I do know that it does take a certain amount of giftedness/skill to make good grades. I know some people that just don't "get" school. They study for HOURS upon HOURS and still make Cs and Ds.
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Old 08-13-2004, 08:25 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I agree that there are 2 types of students who make good grades. Ones that study constantly and ones that just has it. Too bad I can't be the last one, or the first one.
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Old 08-16-2004, 11:15 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gdr2004
[b]What makes a good student? Is it something that anyone can acquire with the right attitude and right mindset and the habits? Will I be able to make the leap from the 2.5 in highschool to the 3.7 that I want?
As others have mentioned before, there are different types of intelligence. Generally, verbal intelligence is more highly correlated with class grades than mathematical intelligence. I'll have to look up the reference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gdr2004
Or do you believe that there are just smart people who are inheriently able to remember things better and do well in school?
I think that there are inherently smart people. I also think that there are people who are inherently hard-working. I disagree with the idea that intelligence is inherent, but will is not. I think that both intelligence and ability to exert one's will (work hard, etc.), are similarly inherent. If I recall correctly, IQ and Need for Achievement (a personality variable relating to being "hard-working") are moderately heritable.
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Old 08-25-2004, 07:12 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sapiens
I think that there are inherently smart people. I also think that there are people who are inherently hard-working. I disagree with the idea that intelligence is inherent, but will is not. I think that both intelligence and ability to exert one's will (work hard, etc.), are similarly inherent. If I recall correctly, IQ and Need for Achievement (a personality variable relating to being "hard-working") are moderately heritable.
This is really interesting. I always blamed my mom for not instilling good work ethic in me. She was pretty depressed and distant and I usually got away with doing my own thing. Now, I can out-procrastinate anyone. With this revelation, I can still blame her but in a different way: She gave me her lazy genes. I don't need Freud to blame my mom anymore. Haha, just kidding. Maybe.

I've noticed in life that there are not only smart people and dumb people, but also people with differing degree of distorted reality. So, if you think you are dumb, don't be so sure. If you think you are smart, don't be so sure either. You are most likely to be pretty average.
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Old 08-26-2004, 08:47 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Your grade generally reflects how much you apply yourself, but that's not always true. Someone could study their ass off and still get a C/D. I think the reason is a lot of people tend to study by just memorizing certain things instead of trying to truly understand the subject/topic being taught.

A good example for this would be math. People will just memorize theorems and techniques left and right without actually trying to get the big picture of what the particular topic is trying to convey. I saw this a lot in my calc class during the optimization/derivative problems. People would ask the same questions, so you could tell they weren't REALLY understanding what the optimization problems were trying to convey or why the methods involved were being used.

By looking at the subject from a different angle instead of a "shit, I gotta memorize 20 terms" or "i gotta memorize this detailed diagram of the kreb's cycle", it can completely cut out all the endless hours you'd normally spend studying. Easier said than done, of course, but the trick is in finding it, and for me, it's generally not all that difficult to find and point out. I tend to use real world examples to help me visualise everything. I'm by no means a prodigy or anything, either, just your avg person.

I used to be the kind of person in HS that studied by memorizing everything, but it quickly became a chore which resulted in low grades because I didn't feel like spending 4 hours a night doing stuff. I graduated a 2.5 student. Now that I'm in college, I'm taking a different approach, and that's actually trying to wrap my mind around what's being taught.. so far I have 3.75 GPA. I have a B here and there from slackin because I hated the particular class and has no desire to give it an A effort. Like english, I hated reading "classic" novels and doing book reports, so pointless especially if I'm going into computer engineering.

But to answer the question.. it's just something you need to practice at. Anyone can do it. There ARE some people who can get away with never studying, like my g/f. She doesn't EVER study and has a straight 4.0 GPA in college. She happens to grasp the bigger picture of things a lot quicker than I can, so it seems immediate while I often sit there for a while thinking about it before it "hits" me.
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Old 09-11-2004, 10:44 AM   #28 (permalink)
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grades are a function of ability and effort

Grades depend on a combination of ability and effort. By ability, I do not mean just general IQ. Some people find some topics easy and others hard. I doubled majored in psychology and economics in college. I studied the same for both types of classes but made much better grades in psychology. The psych material just fit the way I think bettr than did the econ material. The less ability you have in a particular topic area, the harder you have to study in order to understand and remember that material.

Just a hint: Do not try to memeorize stuff - you will not retain it very long that way. Instead, try to understand it. When you read something, ask yourself - Does this make sense? Would I have guessed this before reading it? If yes, you know the material, so move on. If no, then come up with a reason you should have known or guessed it. Once you have such a reason, then you know the material and can recreate it.
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Old 09-12-2004, 07:45 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Getting good grades isn't a skill or gift. It is about having an unwavering interest and passion about your field of study and life in general.
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Old 09-12-2004, 11:08 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wml
Grades depend on a combination of ability and effort. By ability, I do not mean just general IQ. Some people find some topics easy and others hard. I doubled majored in psychology and economics in college. I studied the same for both types of classes but made much better grades in psychology. The psych material just fit the way I think bettr than did the econ material. The less ability you have in a particular topic area, the harder you have to study in order to understand and remember that material.

Just a hint: Do not try to memeorize stuff - you will not retain it very long that way. Instead, try to understand it. When you read something, ask yourself - Does this make sense? Would I have guessed this before reading it? If yes, you know the material, so move on. If no, then come up with a reason you should have known or guessed it. Once you have such a reason, then you know the material and can recreate it.


Being a psych and econ double major myself (there's actually more than just me in this world!?) I'm going to second everything you said. I study the same for both degrees,but it takes extra work for my econ grades to come as easily as the pysch degrees. It helps that I LOVE econ, because it keeps me motivated to work the extra time it takes to really understand the material.
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Old 09-13-2004, 12:19 PM   #31 (permalink)
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I'm personally of the impression that it has everything to do with discipline and the right kind of motivation. I don't say this as someone who works hard and does well, but someone who has every opportunity to do well and doesn't. There's a mix of both ability and effort. Ability can make it easier for someone, but any amount of ground can be covered by enough plain effort. People who get up on time every morning, do a few hours of homework every night, and pay close attention in class are always going to do well, in spite of what their IQ may be. To me, effort is not a natural thing. It comes from finding the right kind of motivation. For example, Students punished for bad grades don't do as well as students rewarded for good grades, and neither of these categories hold a candle to students who find some reason within themselves (competative nature, pride, ambition) to push themselves to success.
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Old 09-13-2004, 02:32 PM   #32 (permalink)
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I believe a person's genes are a major factor in their intellect. Not to brag but I am a straight A student at a world ranked university and I hardly have to work for my grade. Teachers will have the class read a book of essays for homework. I only skim the the first and last page and come into class and out perform all the other students. I believe that the ease of learning is different for everyone. And that somepeople have to work harder for an A than others. Nonetheless everyone is capable of an A its just not everyone puts forth the effort.
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Old 09-14-2004, 10:17 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
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Old 09-21-2004, 05:40 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hokieian
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Repetition is the key to learning
Yep.. hokieian hit it on the head I think.

I've know a lot of really, what I consider, stupid people. The kind of people that if you try and talk to it almost hurts because they have no common sense... but what they lacked in common sense they made up for in grades because they were always studying. There was this girl at my high school... she happened to be a cheerleader and fit the mold well - blonde, didn't look bad and didn't have a clue where she was at any given moment. She happened to be in my trig class, which was a moderately high level class ( there were only 2 higher maths than that - calc and stats ). Anyway, on multiple occasions the teacher would try to build up on simple things that we had hopefully learned in geography like the rules for 30,60,90 triangles and 45,45,90 triangles. Every time she went over things like that, without failing, that girl would raise her hand and ask what whatever we were going over was. She was pulling a 4.0+ GPA and was ranked in the top 10% of the class.
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Old 09-21-2004, 06:09 PM   #35 (permalink)
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I've found that the people who study hard generally do better than their more cavalier counterparts, even when those people who aren't working so much are a lot quicker on the uptake.

On 10-20 minutes a night through high school, I got into the National Honor Society and kept in it through my senior year. The required percentage GPA for membership was 93.0 and I think my first semester senior percentage was 93.067. I didn't get any special recognition or rank near the top of my class at all, but I did what I thought was 'good enough'.

My brother, on the other hand, will go entire weeks and weekends without taking anything more than a brief computer break and scraping for 6 hours of sleep a night. He's a junior now, and last year I believe he was 3rd or 4th in his class of 130 and change. To him, the sacrifice of the other things he would rather be doing is acceptible for the happiness that being at the top of the academic heap gives him.

On the high school level, at least, it largely has to do with how bad you want it. It isn't incredibly difficult for most people to just get by, get the diploma, and go on to the university. The inner, raw desire to "win" the high school game is what makes people from all across the various levels of natural intellect work to come out on top.
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Old 09-22-2004, 03:35 PM   #36 (permalink)
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Old 09-23-2004, 11:43 PM   #37 (permalink)
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It really depends on the person and your style of learning. For some you need to learn how to study. Other can sit and listen to a lecture and be good to go. Luckily for me I can get A's just by sitting and listening so I am good to go with very little preperation. It's nice.
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Old 09-24-2004, 12:37 PM   #38 (permalink)
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I have typcially done well in school... when I went. My strength, though, is my reading speed/comprehension. In second grade, I was tested for reading and according to the test (who really knows how accurate they are) I was reading at the 11th grade level. I used to hide under my covers and read whatever I could find when I was little via flashlight... needless to say, I now wear contacts.

I can pretty much pick up nearly anything with ease - although I do seriously struggle with anything "artsy", minute details, and geometric math. I can typically grasp the big picture very quickly, but definately need to work on other skills.

I suck terribly at Memory.... the game where you flip cards over for pairs? In my AP Psych class we did an experiment with different types of intelligence. Basically, we had a Memory Tournament. I was knocked out 2nd. In fact, there was only 1 person in our class that had an A in the class that scored within the top half of the tournament. Those with the lowest grades ended up taking the very top ranks - very interesting, in my opinion. It really goes to show that schools only test a certain kind of intelligence.

Anyway, back to the original topic - I believe that getting high marks in schools in both a gift and a skill. I scored pretty much straight A's though most of school - occasionally only attending class maybe two weeks out of the entire semester. However, I know many people that struggled with the material we were dealing with, and still made high grades because they studied so hard. Unfortunately, schools only seem to test for one type of intelligence, and if you don't have that specific kind, it will be a whole lot harder for you to achieve high marks, but it certainly isn't impossible. One good thing about it is that all those people that worked very hard to obtain their grades will have a very good work ethic instilled with them. Some of us that just coasted on through may get a slap in the face by the real world when we find out that coasting just won't cut it.
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Old 09-27-2004, 11:00 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Test-taking skills make the grade.
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Old 10-02-2004, 10:09 AM   #40 (permalink)
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IMHO,

one of the main points was stated before - don't memorize the material - grasp an understanding and appreciation of the subject, and do what you can to relate to other experiences/subjects/etc...

[H.S. senior here]
Last year, my trig class [honors] was pretty difficult, my teacher focused making us understand the outlying concepts behind it instead of just memorizing a bunch of crap.
There's probably a correlation with his teaching methods [previously taught in japan] and at least some of our successes [almost all of us aced the department. final last year].....
---- Because of that, analysis is easy, and i can get away with doing the H.W. in class.

*****
THe other main point, which I discovered to be true, [mainly applies to high school, maybe it does for college too, unknown...] is how you were taught growing up [in the classroom] in junior high and high school yrs.

My elementary school prepared me very poorly for high school.... [its a college prep/private, btw] and it showed - I had no work ethic, since everyone in each grade @ the elementary school was placed in just one classroom of 30 or so; and I was bored out of my mind, learning more from reading the newspaper and library books during class.

Meanwhile, some of the other high school classmates were placed in 'gifted' programs when they were younger; then reaped the advantages in high school [taking honors/advanced classes]

What that meant for me was getting a 2.1 GPA freshman year, then working my ass off quite a bit, developing study habits, and a work ethic; to get where I'm a more rigorous pace......


[with my kids, if i have any, they'll be going to montessorri......]

/1st post @ TFP
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