Toilet issue -- any plumbers in the house? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Martian · 08-11-2009, 11:43 AM

Confession: I'm not much of a handyman. I can do wiring and automotive stuff, but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to plumbing. Beyond replacing an aerator on a faucet or other comparatively simple tasks, I really don't know much about it.

So about two months ago our toilet broke. The handle refused to make it flush, and when I opened the tank I found that the arm had snapped cleanly in two. It was cheap plastic and I guess it's a pretty common thing; the superintendent didn't seem particularly surprised by it, at any rate. He replaced it with a metal one and for reasons that weren't entirely clear to me had to replace the chain and the flapper too. He told me at the time that the flapper would need to break in and that the toilet might 'stick' during this period, which I accepted without question.

Two months later and the toilet still sticks. It often requires us to play with the handle quite a bit before the flapper falls into place, and we frequently have to remove the tank lid to see what's going on. I'm hesitant to call the super again for something so seemingly minor but it's a bit of a pain and I'm not entirely opposed if that's what it takes.

My question is, before I go to the trouble of having him come in here to repair/replace it, is there an easy fix for this? I've tried moving the chain to a different hole on the arm, thinking that perhaps it had too much play, but that brought no joy. Is there an obvious solution here that I'm missing?

THGL · 08-11-2009, 01:01 PM

My first impression is that the chain is in the wrong hole. Try adjusting it again to the point where the flapper only opens 45 degrees or so.

Only other thing I can think of is there might be a clearance issue. Is the flapper hanging on another part when it's open?

Leto · 08-11-2009, 01:15 PM

yes, sometimes the chain is too long, and the flap falls all the way back, or the chain itself gets tangled on the arm or the valve, until you jiggle it enough to fall.

Tully Mars · 08-11-2009, 03:16 PM

All sounds right to me.

pig · 08-11-2009, 03:16 PM

martian: have you tried flushing it with the top off to see why it's not working? When you say it sticks, am I interpreting that correctly in that it sticks open? I'd try adding some weight to the bottom of the chain. Usually, those assemblies are sold as a whole package, so he probably replaced everything because that's what they had at the hardware store. You could also try applying some lubricant to the handle interior shaft...nothing too racy, you hear? WD-40 or something.

Psycho Dad · 08-11-2009, 03:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leto

yes, sometimes the chain is too long, and the flap falls all the way back, or the chain itself gets tangled on the arm or the valve, until you jiggle it enough to fall.

Agreed. Check this out like was suggested by flushing it with the lid off the tank. You will see what is going on. If you fix it your damn self you can beat your chest and feel good. If not, have the super do it and don't feel bad, it's his damn job.

Martian · 08-11-2009, 03:34 PM

I have checked with the lid off. The flapper just doesn't go down all the way. I'll try moving the chain again and see if that helps.

Honestly, I think it's just a clearance issue. If it has to be replaced then it officially becomes the super's job, since I'm not paying for a toilet I don't get to keep when I move out. Are there different sizes of flappers? Is it possible that I have the wrong one?

pig · 08-11-2009, 03:46 PM

This may seem insultingly stupid, but that's how I roll: When it doesn't go all the way down, is there slack in the chain? That would clear up the chain issue. I mean, you've either got too much so it won't open when you want to flush, or not enough so it can't go down. If that's not the problem, then for me it would depend on exactly how much of the flushing arm was replaced. If its sticking at the handle arm, then the chain won't matter. You'd have to force it to drop down after you flush. Like I said, I'd add some weight to the flapper or repeatedly force the arm up and down by grabbing that sumbitch on the inside and yanking it up and down. If there's some friction on the inside part of the arm, maybe you can reduce it by essentially grinding off some of the exterior part that's causing it to stick.

Martian · 08-11-2009, 03:52 PM

I'll double-check, but I'm pretty sure there's a small but not excessive amount of slack in the chain.

What would be the best way to go about adding weight to the flapper? Taping a penny to it doesn't seem terribly practical, but past that I'm out of ideas. It seems as though if I added too much it wouldn't float up properly.

Psycho Dad · 08-11-2009, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Are there different sizes of flappers? Is it possible that I have the wrong one?

There are just assloads of universal and one size fits all flappers and not all of them are created equal. Cheap ones in my experience don't seem to pivot like they should and return to the bottom to close off the opening.

pig · 08-11-2009, 04:12 PM

Well, I've never actually done it, to be honest martian, then again I've never had this problem. If I had to, I would get something I didn't give a damn about...like a small d-clip key chain...and I'd see if attaching it right at the connection of the flapper made any difference. Then I'd add something shitty like paper clips (roughly 1 g a pop) to it and see if it helps. It might not. In my experience as "another asshole who owns a house," I've fixed my toilet a ton of times, but usually haven't had the problem of the re-install not working. Usually my chain is corroded out to breaking, and replacement fixes it. I just realized that it might also depend on your floater mechanism. If it simply is a little drain-stop type deal or not. I don't know how to describe some of the other ones I've seen, but I've run into more 'complicated' versions.

Regardless, if I were you - after 2 months - I'd have the super take care of it. Why not? It's his job, and he installed the thing. Unless you just want to geek out and make a science-fair project out of it. Which is kind of what i'm doing with my weights idea. If it won't go down, make it go down. That tawdry whore.

Martian · 08-11-2009, 05:56 PM

Upon closer examination, it appears that the flapper is getting hung on the edge of the drain. There's a hollowed out cone on the bottom of it -- it's purpose appears to be to create an air bubble, which pushes the flapper up when the lever is pressed. I'm assuming this is a common feature, but that's the sticking point. Adding weight might work, since a mere touch is sufficient to cause it to fall into place -- perhaps it simply needs to wear sufficiently to clear the drain and that's what the super meant about it breaking in.

I'll try adding a paperclip tomorrow. If that doesn't work then I guess we'll call the superintendent and have him deal with it.

ratbastid · 08-11-2009, 06:17 PM

Drop a washer around the chain. That way it'll sit right on the business end of the flapper. You can add washers as needed, if one isn't enough weight.

Kingruv · 08-14-2009, 08:56 PM

You are correct about the pocket on the bottom of the flapper, it has air under it after a flush. When you lift, the air is trapped until the water level drops, allowing it to return to it's seat.

What you were told about the flapper needing to settle in is often the case. There is a little biology usually involved though.
If you've noticed in most tanks there is some mix of sediment, calcification and scum. Scummy slime is what your flapper is likely missing.
After a long period, water in the tank begins to get a bit of algae growth in it. Everything gets a slimy coating. This generally acts as a lubricant and to some degree a seal. Even in municipal water which is chlorinated there will be this buildup. eventually.
Your new flapper lacks this. The WD-40 idea goes the right way but is the wrong product since it is WD or "water displacing".

If your still dealing with this, try the following.
Get some petroleum jelly (some have also used shortening such as Crisco or even ham fat)
Turn off the tank supply valve
Flush the water out of the tank
Lift the flapper and put a light film of petroleum around the rubber on the flap and where it seats
Lower the flapper down and push a little to spread the petroleum between the flapper and its seat.
Open the flapper using the lever on the tank a few times. If its tight, as in not wanting to open, you've put too much jelly on. Lift flap and remove some, making it thinner.
Turn the supply line back on and let the tank fill, then try flushing again.

One problem can be some end play at the sides of the hinge where the flapper swings, if it slides sideways too much this can cause hanging. This can be tricky to fix.
There shouldn't be this problem with new hardware but not all are created equal. You can put a little dab of jell there also. The weight of the flapper should recenter it.

Another problem can be the lift chain/connector. If it seems it is getting link locked, that is the links are not floating down free causing the flapper to not go down consistantly, remove the chain and replace with heavy (20 to 30lb) monofilament fishing line or 550 multistrand cord. If you do this, you'll need to assure the end connected at the bottom does not bind in up or down position.

What an adventure huh? Particularly fun at 2 AM isn't it? Not to mention lost water.

Martian · 08-14-2009, 09:11 PM

Wow, Kingruv, that is a comprehensive reply. I thank you for it.

The main reason I've been hesitant to call the super is because I wasn't sure what he'd be able to do, besides replace the hardware again. That's really not the best way to fix the problem, it seems.

Indeed, the idea re: petroleum jelly sounds very plausible. I'll try that at earliest convenience and see if it solves this for me.

Fortunately I don't pay for the water we use, so the only actual cost to me is in terms of conscience. Given how much rain we've had this summer we're in no danger of drought here, so that's not really a cost at all.

Psycho Dad · 08-15-2009, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Given how much rain we've had this summer we're in no danger of drought here, so that's not really a cost at all.

Except for the cost of treating it before it goes to your building, increased water bills for the building management (that they will pass on to renters when it comes time to raise rent) that gets multiplied for every tenant with a leaky WC and then the same water gets treated again in the sewage treatment plant.

Not that I'm on any moral high horse in this regard. I'm about as green as a Hummer factory in Cleveland powered by coal mined from lands with endangered species.

thingstodo · 08-16-2009, 08:23 AM

I've found that flappers work correctly if they are installed correctly. I've also found when I install something that isn't working correctly my best bet is to take it out, clean everything up a bit and reinstall the part. In fact, with something like plumbing clean is better for good connections and sealing. The second time usually works like a charm.

08-11-2009, 11:43 AM	#1 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Toilet issue -- any plumbers in the house? Confession: I'm not much of a handyman. I can do wiring and automotive stuff, but I'm pretty clueless when it comes to plumbing. Beyond replacing an aerator on a faucet or other comparatively simple tasks, I really don't know much about it. So about two months ago our toilet broke. The handle refused to make it flush, and when I opened the tank I found that the arm had snapped cleanly in two. It was cheap plastic and I guess it's a pretty common thing; the superintendent didn't seem particularly surprised by it, at any rate. He replaced it with a metal one and for reasons that weren't entirely clear to me had to replace the chain and the flapper too. He told me at the time that the flapper would need to break in and that the toilet might 'stick' during this period, which I accepted without question. Two months later and the toilet still sticks. It often requires us to play with the handle quite a bit before the flapper falls into place, and we frequently have to remove the tank lid to see what's going on. I'm hesitant to call the super again for something so seemingly minor but it's a bit of a pain and I'm not entirely opposed if that's what it takes. My question is, before I go to the trouble of having him come in here to repair/replace it, is there an easy fix for this? I've tried moving the chain to a different hole on the arm, thinking that perhaps it had too much play, but that brought no joy. Is there an obvious solution here that I'm missing? __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-11-2009, 01:01 PM	#2 (permalink)
THGL Psycho Location: Louisville, KY	My first impression is that the chain is in the wrong hole. Try adjusting it again to the point where the flapper only opens 45 degrees or so. Only other thing I can think of is there might be a clearance issue. Is the flapper hanging on another part when it's open? __________________ "The truth is merely an excuse for lack of imagination." - Garak

08-11-2009, 01:15 PM	#3 (permalink)
Leto Junkie Location: The Danforth	yes, sometimes the chain is too long, and the flap falls all the way back, or the chain itself gets tangled on the arm or the valve, until you jiggle it enough to fall. __________________ You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey And I never saw someone say that before You held my hand and we walked home the long way You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

08-11-2009, 03:16 PM	#4 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	All sounds right to me. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

08-11-2009, 03:16 PM	#5 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	martian: have you tried flushing it with the top off to see why it's not working? When you say it sticks, am I interpreting that correctly in that it sticks open? I'd try adding some weight to the bottom of the chain. Usually, those assemblies are sold as a whole package, so he probably replaced everything because that's what they had at the hardware store. You could also try applying some lubricant to the handle interior shaft...nothing too racy, you hear? WD-40 or something. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

08-11-2009, 03:34 PM	#7 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I have checked with the lid off. The flapper just doesn't go down all the way. I'll try moving the chain again and see if that helps. Honestly, I think it's just a clearance issue. If it has to be replaced then it officially becomes the super's job, since I'm not paying for a toilet I don't get to keep when I move out. Are there different sizes of flappers? Is it possible that I have the wrong one? __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-11-2009, 03:46 PM	#8 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	This may seem insultingly stupid, but that's how I roll: When it doesn't go all the way down, is there slack in the chain? That would clear up the chain issue. I mean, you've either got too much so it won't open when you want to flush, or not enough so it can't go down. If that's not the problem, then for me it would depend on exactly how much of the flushing arm was replaced. If its sticking at the handle arm, then the chain won't matter. You'd have to force it to drop down after you flush. Like I said, I'd add some weight to the flapper or repeatedly force the arm up and down by grabbing that sumbitch on the inside and yanking it up and down. If there's some friction on the inside part of the arm, maybe you can reduce it by essentially grinding off some of the exterior part that's causing it to stick. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

08-11-2009, 03:52 PM	#9 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I'll double-check, but I'm pretty sure there's a small but not excessive amount of slack in the chain. What would be the best way to go about adding weight to the flapper? Taping a penny to it doesn't seem terribly practical, but past that I'm out of ideas. It seems as though if I added too much it wouldn't float up properly. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-11-2009, 04:12 PM	#11 (permalink)
pig pigglet pigglet Location: Locash	Well, I've never actually done it, to be honest martian, then again I've never had this problem. If I had to, I would get something I didn't give a damn about...like a small d-clip key chain...and I'd see if attaching it right at the connection of the flapper made any difference. Then I'd add something shitty like paper clips (roughly 1 g a pop) to it and see if it helps. It might not. In my experience as "another asshole who owns a house," I've fixed my toilet a ton of times, but usually haven't had the problem of the re-install not working. Usually my chain is corroded out to breaking, and replacement fixes it. I just realized that it might also depend on your floater mechanism. If it simply is a little drain-stop type deal or not. I don't know how to describe some of the other ones I've seen, but I've run into more 'complicated' versions. Regardless, if I were you - after 2 months - I'd have the super take care of it. Why not? It's his job, and he installed the thing. Unless you just want to geek out and make a science-fair project out of it. Which is kind of what i'm doing with my weights idea. If it won't go down, make it go down. That tawdry whore. __________________ You don't love me, you just love my piggy style

08-11-2009, 05:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Upon closer examination, it appears that the flapper is getting hung on the edge of the drain. There's a hollowed out cone on the bottom of it -- it's purpose appears to be to create an air bubble, which pushes the flapper up when the lever is pressed. I'm assuming this is a common feature, but that's the sticking point. Adding weight might work, since a mere touch is sufficient to cause it to fall into place -- perhaps it simply needs to wear sufficiently to clear the drain and that's what the super meant about it breaking in. I'll try adding a paperclip tomorrow. If that doesn't work then I guess we'll call the superintendent and have him deal with it. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-11-2009, 06:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Drop a washer around the chain. That way it'll sit right on the business end of the flapper. You can add washers as needed, if one isn't enough weight.

08-14-2009, 08:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
Kingruv Upright Location: NoVa	You are correct about the pocket on the bottom of the flapper, it has air under it after a flush. When you lift, the air is trapped until the water level drops, allowing it to return to it's seat. What you were told about the flapper needing to settle in is often the case. There is a little biology usually involved though. If you've noticed in most tanks there is some mix of sediment, calcification and scum. Scummy slime is what your flapper is likely missing. After a long period, water in the tank begins to get a bit of algae growth in it. Everything gets a slimy coating. This generally acts as a lubricant and to some degree a seal. Even in municipal water which is chlorinated there will be this buildup. eventually. Your new flapper lacks this. The WD-40 idea goes the right way but is the wrong product since it is WD or "water displacing". If your still dealing with this, try the following. Get some petroleum jelly (some have also used shortening such as Crisco or even ham fat) Turn off the tank supply valve Flush the water out of the tank Lift the flapper and put a light film of petroleum around the rubber on the flap and where it seats Lower the flapper down and push a little to spread the petroleum between the flapper and its seat. Open the flapper using the lever on the tank a few times. If its tight, as in not wanting to open, you've put too much jelly on. Lift flap and remove some, making it thinner. Turn the supply line back on and let the tank fill, then try flushing again. One problem can be some end play at the sides of the hinge where the flapper swings, if it slides sideways too much this can cause hanging. This can be tricky to fix. There shouldn't be this problem with new hardware but not all are created equal. You can put a little dab of jell there also. The weight of the flapper should recenter it. Another problem can be the lift chain/connector. If it seems it is getting link locked, that is the links are not floating down free causing the flapper to not go down consistantly, remove the chain and replace with heavy (20 to 30lb) monofilament fishing line or 550 multistrand cord. If you do this, you'll need to assure the end connected at the bottom does not bind in up or down position. What an adventure huh? Particularly fun at 2 AM isn't it? Not to mention lost water.

08-14-2009, 09:11 PM	#15 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	Wow, Kingruv, that is a comprehensive reply. I thank you for it. The main reason I've been hesitant to call the super is because I wasn't sure what he'd be able to do, besides replace the hardware again. That's really not the best way to fix the problem, it seems. Indeed, the idea re: petroleum jelly sounds very plausible. I'll try that at earliest convenience and see if it solves this for me. Fortunately I don't pay for the water we use, so the only actual cost to me is in terms of conscience. Given how much rain we've had this summer we're in no danger of drought here, so that's not really a cost at all. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

08-16-2009, 08:23 AM	#17 (permalink)
thingstodo A Storm Is Coming Location: The Great White North	I've found that flappers work correctly if they are installed correctly. I've also found when I install something that isn't working correctly my best bet is to take it out, clean everything up a bit and reinstall the part. In fact, with something like plumbing clean is better for good connections and sealing. The second time usually works like a charm. __________________ If you're wringing your hands you can't roll up your shirt sleeves. Stangers have the best candy.