LordEden

It took a surprising amount of willpower to NOT name this thread, "ENGLISH MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?".

I've been writing on here alot compared to other places I comment/post on. The language, punctuation and grammar usually goes no higher than the 3rd grade on those sites. Here, I actually need to re-read and edit my posts. Here in lies the problem, I have horrible grammar . I have spell check for my 2nd grade spelling and after a while I think the computer begins to understand my dyslexic spelling. What I need help with is the rules of grammar and the English language.

I did have a friend that would edit all of my letters, important emails and during college my papers (like the last sentience, should there be a comma between "emails" and "and"??). She was great at it and was a key person that helped me graduate college. Then my penis got involved and now she doesn't talk to me. So, I need to learn how to do this myself.

I thought about taking a class at the community college, but the material I need to cover is not taught except as E.S.L. Creative writing would help, but would not get to the root of the problem. So, just like the tagline of this forum states, I have TFP to help me.

I need websites, names of books, online lessons, anything that could help me with learning the rules of punctuation and grammar. Like that last sentence, commas confuse the SHIT out of me. Don't even get me started on run-ins and semi-colons. I feel like the grammar nazis are just cringing whenever I start typing a post. This will help me IRL with cover letters and emails for jobs, as I need a new one badly.

I figure I can memorize the rules for writing and have a nice reference for when I'm trying to get an interview with someone. I don't need to be prefect, just better than what I am now.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Baraka_Guru

First, there is no one proper way to use commas; however, there are ways to misuse them. It's confusing, I know.

Start by reading Strunk & White's Elements of Style. It's not necessarily the be-all and end-all, but it's simple, straightforward, and thin.

[edit]I had a friend who would edit all of my letters, important e-mail, and, during college, my papers.[/edit]

EDIT: For the record, your issue with commas in your OP is about whether or not to use the serial/Oxford comma (the last comma in a list). It's a stylistic choice. I prefer to use it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

LordEden

I have choices? Oh dear god, I am fucked.

I always thought it was, the comma goes here, here, here, and here. Rinse and Repeat.

I'll go by the Library today and see if they have that book. I just hope my brain doesn't explode.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Jetée

Ah, "e-mail" is comparable to the words sheep and meat, in the sense of same singular/plural denotation.

The more you know.


I know the deal about prepositions and not ending a sentence with one, but to choose the easiest example: how would you rearrange this sentence in the simplest manner to become a grammatically-correct structure?

ex. "What's this all about?"

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Baraka_Guru

There aren't many choices like these. Should I avoid letting you know the difference between open and closed style of comma use?

You favour the serial comma, which is fine, unless there are official requirements telling you otherwise. Some say it is superfluous.

Comma use is a heavily debated topic amongst editors. It has been for decades, if not centuries. Just figure out how to avoid outright misuse and you'll be fine.

That's the beauty of it. It won't overwhelm you.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i look at commas as like breathing spots. this isn't strict (so if you make a clause that functions as an adjective you might have to use them to separate it from what it modifies even if you wouldn't pause for breath there were you reading it aloud).

colons link together sentences: semi colons link sentence to fragment. that's the rule i think.

once you figure out the basic game, you can mess around with it--for example if you decide to play with cadences, you can use commas to manipulate them.

but really, it depends on what you're writing. in a critical essay, for example, i have found that folk get in trouble with commas because they're using passive voice. so when i taught writing i would go after the use of verbs. make the sentences active and you'll have to keep them shorter. keeping them shorter simplifies them, structurally speaking. mostly this erases questions about how to use punctuation to string together elements that would be simple to deal with in a separate sentences.

that's my tip, really. use active sentences. use more passive or complicated constructions for particular reasons. know why you're doing it, in other words.

well, there are two tips. the other one is write alot. just do it. it's like any other craft: there's no substitute for doing stuff.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Some good advice, rb. But a couple things to point out:

You have to be careful with this. Dropping in commas where the language should be left to its own rhythm can annoy a lot of readers. That's why some editors only use commas where necessary for grammatical sense. (The open style.)

I think this is backwards. Colons allow you to introduce phrases or fragments, such as lists or statements/declarations linked to the preceding sentence. Semi-colons link closely related sentences. You shouldn't use semi-colons between incomplete sentences. You can use the em-dash (—) for this, if you want to add the fragment as parenthetical-like material.

I'm being formal, of course.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

genuinegirly

While you're at the library, do yourself a favor and check out a book by Lynne Truss

Eats Shoots and Leaves: the zero tolerance approach to punctuation

It's a fun read, and informative.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Baraka_Guru

While it may be fun and informative, I've had editors tell me it's riddled with punctuation errors....sweet, delicious irony. *shrug* I haven't read it, so take that as hearsay.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:18 AM ----------

Another lesson in commas:

When you address someone directly, you should offset this with commas.

For example:
"English, motherfucker, do you speak it?"

not

"English motherfucker, do you speak it?"

The second sentence reads "English motherfucker" as a noun, rather than you calling someone a motherfucker while asking him or her about the English language. I mean, I've known some English motherfuckers, but this is beside the point. You should be clear that you are addressing someone by using commas.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i like editors.
they can see things about your sentences even when you can't any more.
and they know when you mess up rules.
and usually they're nice to you.
they're like santa claus that way.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Well, when you get your start as an editor, you quickly learn the hard way that many writers are sensitive people.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Redlemon

I didn't like the style of ESL; my go-to book is .

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

PonyPotato

Did anyone else notice the misspelling in the thread title?

__________________
"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

genuinegirly

Yes, it's what drew me in to read the thread.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

PonyPotato

Thanks, I'm not totally crazy. I was wondering how it was possible for Baraka_Guru to make multiple replies to the thread without pointing that out.

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"Without passion man is a mere latent force and possibility, like the flint which awaits the shock of the iron before it can give forth its spark."
— Henri-Frédéric Amiel

Baraka_Guru

Shh.... be gentle. This is about grammar, not spelling. Besides, I'm eating my lunch. I'll get around to it when I get the chance.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

LordEden

I thought I got that one right, damn it. Could one of the mods fix that for me?

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

genuinegirly

Sure, I'll fix it - no prob!

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

LordEden

I just want the basic game, apparently I've been throwing the basketball at the wrong goal.

Yeah, let's stay basic. I'm not writing research papers.

It was worth making this thread just to hear you edit one of Samuel L Jackson's best lines.

I'll check out both of those books, GG and Redlemon. I really want to work on this, it's something that bugs the fuck out of me when I don't know if I'm correct or not.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Martian

I'm guilty of comma abuse, and have to watch myself carefully. I tend to group thoughts together in my writing; this is a good habit in general since it helps with flow, but it also tends to leave me grasping for ways to join my thoughts together.

A semi-colon by my understanding is used to connect to inter-related but independent statements. Ex:

My dog is big. He eats a lot of kibble.

Becomes:

My dog is big; he eats a lot of kibble.

Both are complete (albeit simple) sentences. Joining them with a semi-colon allows the reader to transition more smoothly from one to the next.

Everyone's afraid of semi-colons and em dashes, but I think the comma is the most difficult piece of punctuation to use correctly.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Zeraph

It gets even worse when you get to creative or writer's license. When it comes down to it there are very few hard rules in grammar. It's more about learning (after the basics) how to write for your intended audience. Forum posts should have a different style than a formal letter. Always remember the most important rule, write it so it makes sense. If it's difficult to read what's the point of the extra grammatical work you've put into it?

jewels

^^^ Ditto that. ^^^

You can check it out online. Granted, the site is annoying, but if you turn on your Gestapo pop-up blockers, it's got what you need.

Strunk, William, Jr. 1918. The Elements of Style

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We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Baraka_Guru

Oh, I should probably mention that the Strunk & White now has an illustrated edition. Wo0t!

/book nerd

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

MuadDib

Strunk & White, Elements of Style

Learn it. Know it. Live it.

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"The courts that first rode the warhorse of virtual representation into battle on the res judicata front invested their steed with near-magical properties." ~27 F.3d 751

Baraka_Guru

Carry it in your back pocket.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

LordEden

Thanks for the link! I'll try my best to start digesting all of this information tomorrow.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

SecretMethod70

Lots of good stuff in this thread.

I don't have much to add, other than these two points:

1) I'm a big fan and supporter of the serial comma. I realize there are valid arguments on both sides, but it just looks WRONG to me when I see a list without it.

2) For god's sake, look at the rules about punctuation and quotation marks.

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Le temps détruit tout

"Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

Redlemon

Feh! I refuse to submit to Universal American-style period/quotation marks!

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Glory's Sun

I had a teacher once who stated that if we ever used a comma splice we would get an instant fail.

she was awesome.

on here, I don't really give a fuck about grammar.. other areas of my life.. it's very important.

LordEden

This board is practice for me to improve on my grammar. The more I write, the move I practice my grammar, the better off I will be for RL. Unless I find someone to write my cover letters for me. I wonder how much it will cost to get Baraka_Guru to outsource his wordsmith talents.

Spelling I can do nothing about, I misspell the simplest words all day long. When they are wrong, they look correct. When they are correct, they look wrong. You don't know this, but I misspelled "wrong" 4 different times before spellcheck finally figured out what I was talking about.

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Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Jetée

Alright, I'm random and inconsequential, I know, but is this sentence structure acceptable in formal writings, i.e. news articles or journalistic thesis entries?

The 'about' clause, I mean; we all say and write things that end in prepositions, but unless strictly taught not to do so, we can't help but keep erring back to the familiar. Is it wrong or weird to see this, or I am solitary in this thinking?

So, what would be a proper alternative to this sentence in which I am writing about? (now)

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

Redlemon

So a Texan goes to Harvard and he is walking across Harvard yard when he sees a student, wearing his beanie, approaching. He stops the student and asks, "Excuse me, feller, where's the library at?"

The Harvard student, taken aback, responds: "Dear sir, here at Harvard we do not end our sentences with prepositions."

To which the Texan replies: "Okay, where's the library at, asshole."

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Jetée

Astounding, and far-and-away the best response I could have gotten. (makes me feel somewhat better that I was inadvertently ignored the first go-around)

__________________
As human beings, our greatness lies not so much in being able to remake the world (that is the myth of the Atomic Age) as in being able to remake ourselves.

—Mohandas K. Gandhi

LordEden

Hey you could be the guy that everyone is using as an example of bad grammar.

Glad I ordered that Armor Upgrade to Thick Skin +2 (+5 vs Grammar Nazis).

Then again I did start a thread about how my grammar sucks. Oh well.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich