Shauk

So, here's the situation.


I got WoW at launch, as did my Girlfriend.
we enjoyed the game, and came over from FFXI.

We convinced 2 more of our friends to come over to WoW. A friend I've known for 5 years, and his fiance, who he has a child with.


Also, 3 more friends we got were, 2 brothers, and thier roommate

So..

7 people I know IRL.

6 of these people have no problem maintaining a semblance of responsibility. 1 does. The friend of 5 years with the kid and fiance.

I bought him the game back when we worked at the same company together, He had been promoted to a manager posistion and was doing very well at his job.

After getting the game, he started missing work, started not doing very well at his job, and the head manager noticed a few errors with his work during one of his closing procedures, and left a note in the office for him.

My friend, already looking for a reason to quit, took this as "public embarrassment" since the note was where anyone could have read it.
He quit.

Since then he has jumped to 5 other jobs. Each being quit with a very lame excuse. "well someone else there made more money than me, I find that to be unfair since we have the same job"
"i don't like driving 30 minutes to get to work"
"They always make me stay an hour or 2 later than when I'm scheduled to get off"

All very lame reasons to quit.

If he was alone, I wouldn't care, As long as he was fending for himself, it wouldn't be an issue. But he has a 6 month old child. He doesn't take care of him. When his fiance is at work, he is playing WoW, and in the background, anytime he speaks, is a crying child.

So, in between his 4th and 5th job, I talked to a mutual friend of ours to get advice on my responsibility as his friend. Should I talk to him? Ask him if there is a problem?

Well, I gave my friend a timeline. He had been out of work for a month, His Fiance just started college, and is working, and taking care of thier kid, He's mooching off her financial aide money so he can sit around and play WoW all day.


It's heartbreaking to see him in this catatonic state, I try to call him on the phone, and he just cannot take a break and hold a coherent conversation. At 1st it wasn't as obvious, but later it became more apparent as he would sit there and talk on his headset to ventrilo saying things like "pull that mob, ill lay a freeze trap" and all that.

We all play wow, (me and the 7 that is) we all see his addiction as a problem. he spends over 14-18 hours a day. He's on from 11am-to as late as 3am.



Thats just my preamble.

Now the situation is this.

Between his 4th and 5th job, he was out of work for a month, I suggest that he go try working at this pizza place down the street, and he goes and applies, gets hired, and doesn't take the job immediately because he has plans to go to PAX, a gaming convention in seattle, to meet up with his guild members from SoCal. He's 27, and had his dad drive him over, and stayed at a guild members house over there because he had no money. At this point I wanted to talk to him about things, but I decided to see how his job at the pizza place went before I said anything.

Well he gets back, 3 days later he calls me when he should have been at work, and I ask him if he worked today or not. He said yeah, but he left early. I ask why, he says the other driver makes more money than him because he takes more runs. He tells me it has nothing to do with his lack of knowledge of the streets in this town, but rather, the manager is out to screw him because the other driver is his friend. I told him he needs to talk to the owner about that and have it dealt with, and he agreed. I've walked out on shifts before and kept my job after having a serious discussion with management.

When he went in and applied, i went in with him and filled out one too. Because I have previous experience, they wanted me to work, but I told them to hire my friend 1st because he needed the job more than I did (I already have one) So of course, 3 days after I talk to my friend where he says he walked out, The store owner calls me up and says he wants me to work, says that my friend quit, and that he never said a word to him.

At this point I feel lied to. At this very moment, I check our vent server attendance, and sure enough, our addict is there.
I called him up and told him I didn't appreciate being mislead into thinking that he was actually still working there when he was not. Told him about my conversation with the manager, and finally just broke down and told him that "I don't think you are making the best decision here regarding your employment, since this is your 5th job in the last 6 months. I'm concerned that you may have a problem and we should discuss it"

his response is "I won't even talk to my family about it, what makes you think I'll talk to you?"

At this point I really didn't have anything to say, but he became hostile on the phone, and I just said that we could talk about it later when he cooled off because I didn't mean to say it in a way that sounded hostile at all.


fast forward 2 days.

I'm playing the game before I head to bed for the night, he pops into my vent channel and says something like "I really don't need my friends to call me and tell me that I'm fucking up my life!" in front of about 8 people.

I just pretended to not be there, I had no desire to argue with him in front of 8 strangers and feed his penchance for drama.

a day later, he's typing the same thing in our guild chat saying stuff like "My friends like to call me up and tell me I'm worthless"

So at this point, I'm pissed, He lies to me about the situation surrounding his job, and then he lies to others about what I actually said to him.

I'm pissed, but I still want to help him out as a friend. I just don't know what to do anymore :\

nukeu666

hmm...serious
if he were my friend..i would try to get him drunk(and mellow), make him feel guilty and convince him to delete his character(can u del your char in wow?)
if not, let him login...then u spend the whole night selling&giving away all his equipment/exp
if ur lucky enuf, he wont talk to u for a few weeks...and if ur real lucky, he wont have enough stamina to start building another character

__________________
Why did the Comp. Engineer get X-mas and Halloween mixed up?
Because Oct(31) == Dec(25)

Shauk

Yeah I know his password, and I could delete his character, but thats not the solution.

He just needs to think about his family, and not play the game so goddamn much.

I just don't know how to say that nicely.

Lasereth

That's really sad. I played WoW furiously for over a year, but I never put it ahead of something important like school, work, or my social life. Did I played it hours per day? Yes, but not overtop of the aforementioned subjects. He really needs to get a grip. He probably has some sort of mindset that leads him to believe that he deserves to play the game. I'd hate to see him play EQ, since EQ is 100x more addicting than WoW to many gamers. Why don't you talk to his fiancee about it? She could help him out as well. Both of you could sit down and talk about this problem and how it's affecting his life. If that doesn't work, I'm not sure what would. Deleting his character wouldn't work...people like him would start over happily at the new challenge.

-Lasereth

__________________
"A Darwinian attacks his theory, seeking to find flaws. An ID believer defends his theory, seeking to conceal flaws." -Roger Ebert

MooseMan3000

To tell you the truth, I don't think this is the best forum for this question. The question isn't about WoW; it's about addiction. Everything you described about his behavior sounds exactly like alcoholism. Or a marijuana addiction (think it can't happen? Think again. One brother addicted, one friend addicted - only one recovered). Or any other type of addiction you can think of.

It's cearly taking over his life. He's letting his friendships, his work, his CHILD fall by the wayside to feed his addiction. He lies about playing - if that doesn't scream addiction to you, then you're obviously not paying attention.

Have you ever been to any AA meetings? Most people don't have any reason to, but I think it would be incredibly enlightening to you to just attend a few. Like I said before, they're not about alcohol; they're about addiction. You would learn a lot about how this is affecting him and his life, and you might learn something that will help. If there were WoWA meetings, I'd tell you to go to a few, but this is probably the next best thing. Seriously, I think it would help.

Even if you don't go, however, the fact remains that he has a serious problem. You won't be able to do anything alone, that I promise you. You need to get help from friends, from family. Getting his clan members involved probably won't help, because they don't see the entire picture. I'm sure none of them even know a problem exists. You may even want to speak with an addictions counselor. They usually offer their services for free, and while I doubt any of them have ever counselled a WoW addict, they'll still be able to help you.

I can't stress this enough - all addictions are the same. Any resource available to you for coping with any addiction will help. If you're really serious about helping this friend, you'll get some help. He won't outgrow it on is own. He may get tired of the game, but once you become addicted to something, unless you make an active effort to get better, you will always be an addict. He'll find something else to drown the pain. People who don't get help don't recover.

pan6467

It's like any other addiction, he has found a way to alter his "reality" and avoid his issues.

The more he delves into this the more issues he has, the more he delves into it, the more issues he gets.... and so on.

It's the same as people who are addicted to chat, gambling, and so on, in that for their addiction nothing is being consumed into the body so people don't see it as "dangerous" or "as obvious" or as a true mental disease.

My guess is that your friend probably is becoming more reclusive, more agoraphobic, less active in real life and has come to trust noone.

He probably was very believeable (although after caught in so many lies it's hard to tell what the truth is anymore), friendly, and used to be out going.

He may even experience withdrawal.

As with any addict there are few ways to stop the problem until the addict becomes honest with themself.

And the seriously unfortunate fact is there are NO rehabs for these types of addictions. Even gambling rehabs are few and don't deal with other mental addictions.

Drug rehabs don't touch these type of addictions, again because society doesn't view them as "addictions" like they do drugs and alcohol.

The vast majority of psychologists, psychotherapists and psychiatrists will probably misdiagnose and treat as bi-polar or manic, for 2 reasons it's simpler and the client probably hasn't been honest about the addiction. This can work temporarily, but chances are without true therapy and facing the problem head on, the addict usually goes back to the addiction and says.... "see nothing wrong with me playing, chatting, gambling, etc. doc says I'm bi-polar. Besides could be worse I could be a drunk or drug addict."

So what's the answer......... well if your friendship with him is strong and he trusts you then you've got a good start.... if not find someone who does (the key is this person has to truly care deeply and want to truly help him).... preferably maybe his baby's mother if she still is in love with him and wants him....

then go to group counselling,

set limits on play..... (hold a job down, only play for this long at a time, etc.)

take this as seriously as any other addiction and don't play or talk about it around him

don't treat him like he's sick, be honest with him and hold him accountable for his actions

now the problem is.... if he doesn't want to face his addiction, he may not and may try to run away to someplace they'll enable him.... so make sure his family and all known friends are on the same page and treat this the same way... uniformity works

and finally, just be his friend and know there maybe setbacks, and his temper may be out of control at first but the true him will comeback when he truly faces the problem and works the help..... it'll take patience, love, understanding and the desire to truly help him.

These types of addictions are soon to be my specialty and what I'll have my therapeutic community working on. I plan to make sure these addictions get as well treated as drug and alcohol addictions.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

pan6467

Hate to sound argumentative.... but as a professional addictions counselor and having had a mental addiction (gambling) and not a physical (drugs, alcohol).... there are many differences some subtle some very obvious. And mental addictions are far far harder to recover from, have fewer success rates and have more suicides attached to them.

For the most part they can be treated the same ways, however with mental addictions there is a need to delve far deeper into the escape from reality aspect and the need for the person to face their inner turmoil more.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

MooseMan3000

Say what you will, but in my experience, ALL addictions are mental addictions. I'm not saying that people CHOOSE to be addicted. However, in every single case I've seen that someone has overcome either a "mental" or a "physical" addiction, the key factor is that the person DECIDED to get better. Until the addict makes the conscious effort to get beyond it, nothing else will help. That is why I consider all addictions "mental," and hence, they are all the same.

Of course there are subtle differences. But that doesn't make a lick of difference as to how you treat it.

FngKestrel

Has he played other MMO type games? I find that people who are freshly exposed to something new usually have a hard time regulating their time because it is so new and overwhelming. From what it sounds like, this was his first interaction with MMOs

I've had friends who discovered the joys of making their own website and did so addictively.
I've personally been addicted to MUDs, back in the day when it was just text. Which is why I have severe reservations playing any graphical MMO.

If you want to get him to stop, you'll need a group effort. Like what pan said, get everyone on the same page. Maybe an intervention? Does he understand how much he's hurting everyone? If he can realize that, then maybe he can initiate change to fix things.

Church

Jeremy? (I'll be impressed if anyone gets that )

Episode 6

Do that and then watch episode 7.

http://www.purepwnage.com/episodes.html

__________________
Through counter-intelligence, it should be possible to pinpoint potential trouble makers, and neutralize them.

Shauk

he has played EQ, and with me on FFXI it wasn't a problem.

But this game allows for a feeling of accomplishment when you are by yourself too so, he spends a great deal more time.

So he's experienced, he is simply being irresponsible.

Shauk

yeah, i've seen those already, no wow fan wouldn't have seen them already.

While funny, I don't think he's at the point of malnutrition yet.

Zeraph

Huh? Of course it does, physical withdrawal is way different than psychological. Now obviously I'm not disagreeing with the fact they need to make the choice to get better but..

herion's "symptoms": Withdrawal, which in regular abusers may occur as early as a few hours after the last administration, produces drug craving, restlessness, muscle and bone pain, insomnia, diarrhea and vomiting, cold sweats with goose bumps ("cold turkey"), kicking movements ("kicking the habit"), and other symptoms. Major withdrawal symptoms peak between 48 and 72 hours after the last dose and subside after about a week. Sudden withdrawal by heavily dependent users who are in poor health is occasionally fatal, although heroin withdrawal is considered much less dangerous than alcohol or barbiturate withdrawal.

For instance, I don't think a WoW addict will go through some of those bolded examples, so you would treat it differenty. I don't think he's in danger of needing a medical doctor or an ER trip b/c of withdrawal.

pan6467

Moved to "Health and Fitness" where a debate of mental and physical addiction can be had ....... so as not to threadjack.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Catdaddy33

The fiance should be more involved, I mean she's the one that has to pick up his slack and letting him do it....

I had a friend that was addicted to an MMO. He had a good job as tech support in a call center environment, making good money and liked his job. He was playing during this time but wasn't bad yet. He had to go out on disability for surgery 4-6 weeks, and during this recovery he started withdrawling into the game. Conversations became difficult cause that was all he wanted to talk about.

Now hes a single guy and was all set to move into his own place before he had his surgery, in the meantime he was living in his Mom's basement. He somehow talked the Dr to extend his disability for another couple of weeks, during this time he was playing 16-18 hours a day noonish to 5-6 am every day. When those 2 weeks were up he called in and said he was going to be out longer...the Dr refused so he never filed the paperwork and was fired.

When I found out I went apeshit on the guy, he played it off and gave many excuses why he all the sudden hated his job. At that point, I cut ties with him, his other friends did the same. That was a couple years ago, and from what I've heard he's still unemployed living at home, gained a lot of weight, and playing on the PC. Thankfully, there are no children involved or I would have done more. If he doesn't want to help himself then I'm not going to scold him like a child.

I regret that I lost a friend, but if he can't see that losing all his "local" friends, his good job, and becoming the stereo-typical computer gaming geek living in your Mom's basement, that there's a problem, then maybe that's what he wants out of life. As long as his Mom lets it happen then it will..

Gabbyness

Catdaddy -

Yeah, maybe you're right. Maybe we should let people just live their own life and flush it down the toilet without helping. I just know I would have a problem justifying it to myself if I didn't try my best to save a friend from self-destruction.

But maybe that's makes me an idealist and an idiot . . .

Catdaddy33

I understand...

It was hard to disconnect from a friend I had for almost 15 years, but I had hoped it would make a point...and it did...our friendship wasn't as important as his game...

la petite moi

Plain and simple, he's going to fuck up his life. I know how addicting WoW is. nwlinkvxd plays it any chance he gets...

But that's not the point. I know it seems horrible to say, but you should just calm down about it. People learn from mistakes, typically, and you aren't his parent (point being- you can't sit on him and make sure he does his job, etc.). I would say that you should occasionally check up on his fiance and child, since you are so concerned for them. Offer to be a shoulder to lean on, and perhaps, if you have the energy, continue urging your friend to keep his job. His escape into the game may be his way of disappearing from his harsh responsibilities (like a child, job, wife, etc), and hence, there may be an underlying problem. Next time he harasses you in front of the guild, tell him that you and your friends care about him and his fiance- that's all.

Anyway, I hope that all makes sense...

jt6879

go to his house when he isnt home, uninstall the game, and take his copy. Then tell his girl to not let him buy it again

nukeu666

and break his comp...or atleast take it away
send him to a world tour on a cruiser wtih his fiancee

__________________
Why did the Comp. Engineer get X-mas and Halloween mixed up?
Because Oct(31) == Dec(25)

Willravel

Nothing you can do (without being seriously codependant) besides having an intervention. He has to solve the problem for himself and those who depend on him.

Shauk

well it seems the intervention came in the form of a mass exodus, leaving him sitting on his thumbs.


basically, I've jumped to another server,
his dad and his brother quit the guild. (his brother actually cancelled his account)
his 2 other friends that he's pissed off seem to be making up with him recently though so I dunno.
my gf is playing her low level "secret" alts

So pretty much, he's only got 2 of the people left to play with.

Maybe he'll get bored now. I don't know.

FngKestrel

Is that going to work? You said earlier that the game gives a feeling of accomplishment even if a player is playing by himself.

Shauk

well, i've talked to the guild leader about this issue to try and get his help on making the game less involved for him.

Including denying him any promotional opportunities.

Basically, his thing is that he's attention starved.

Rank and Fame are everything to him. He's a popularity whore.

So he's going to get even more frustrated when he starts grandstanding in front of the guild leader who is "in the know" about the situation, and finds that it gets him nowhere.

I'm not sure if he'll quit the game, but in the very least, he will find the game to be a source of frustration.

I think he already is actually, considering today he announced that he set up a Guild Wars account, and is now trying to recruit people into his guild. Aptly named in the best of attention whore mannerisms (Character name and company)

yes dickhead, we all want to be your sidekick

MechCow

Do you have a source for this? In psychology we learnt the exact opposite, that some problem gamblers who have gambled their houses away are able to stop cold turkey and be fine within a few weeks. When you are addicted to alcohol or dope or heroin, and you stop, you suffer real serious anxiety and your body/brain is telling you constantly relieve this feeling. Thus most drug addictions are about avoiding the negative as much as chasing the positive after a while (and some argue that serious addictions are almost totally avoiding the negative). Higher rates of suicide? That is nothing compared to the number of people who die every year due to alcohol or smoking. I live in Sydney, Australia and we have a massive poker machine problem but it is nothing compared to cigarettes and alcohol.

Back to the original poster, your friend sounds in pretty deep and I'm sorry that it has come to this. But keep it all in perspective and know that it is extremely unlikely he will die from playing WoW or suffer any irreversible damage. As others have pointed out playing that often generally would indicate other problems in his life, it is unlikely he really loves WoW that much and more likely that he is escaping from something he doesn't want to deal with. Don't beat yourself up about introducing him to the game - the game is fucking awesome but its not heroin.

If he wants to keep playing and waste his life doing it, there is really nothing you can do to stop him. I think the first step to helping him is accepting that it is his choice to continue to do what he is doing. You have certainly done the right thing by letting him know how you feel. The danger is that he will now start playing with a whole bunch of new people that are just as addicted. I'm almost surprised blizzard keep adding more ways to make WoW more addictive (e.g. the honour system), gambling sites for example now have ways of helping you limit your play and hopefully blizzard will introduce something similar in the future.

I don't know how often you play but if you want to send a strong message to him it might be an idea to stop playing. Myself I have recently moved house and I'm on dialup which is close to unplayable for WoW. It has changed my life a little because I have been seeing more of my friends and doing my own projects instead of working on my character. I hope when I get ADSL I will keep on some of my new found healthier habits .

Good luck let us know how it goes.

Disclaimer: My advice only

Shauk

yeah, he plays a hunter, the 1.7 patch got him good.

Yeah, I don't think i know this kid anymore. He's not my friend, he's a full time WoW PC.


*shrug*


oh well. He wont talk to me anymore so whatever.

nukeu666

on the lighterside....download and watch pure pwnage episode 6 and 7....its about wow addiction

__________________
Why did the Comp. Engineer get X-mas and Halloween mixed up?
Because Oct(31) == Dec(25)