A note to the rest of Canada: Hands Off - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

canucker · 08-31-2005, 11:34 AM

I don't know why, I usally thinks her columns suck, but this one was good:

Licia Corbella

Wed, August 31, 2005

A note to the rest of Canada: Hands off
By LICIA CORBELLA

There has been much talk of late about the Surplus Envy the rest of Canada (ROC) has for Alberta. Methinks Sigmund Freud might have had something interesting to say about that.

But first, some hard facts for all those whiners who are eyeing Alberta's conservatively projected $2.8-billion surplus.

In 2004, the feds collected $25.6 billion gross in personal and corporate income taxes from Albertans -- the largest per-capita haul in Canada.

According to Tracy Balash, spokesperson for Alberta Finance, Alberta receives about $16.3 billion back in federal government services and programs. That means the net contribution Albertans generously share with the ROC comes to $9.3 billion -- or $2,914 per Albertan -- by far the largest per capita transfer payments of any other province. Next in line is Ontario at $1,856 per Ontarian.

Now this next bit of info is important -- even somewhat shocking -- and shouldn't be lost on anyone -- particularly Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, who is concerned that Ontario will soon become a "have-not" province and who described Alberta's oil wealth, as the "elephant in the room" during the recent premiers' conference in Banff.

The royalties Alberta received from the oil and gas industry -- which includes natural gas, crude oil, synthetic crude and bitumen -- for the fiscal year of 2004-2005 was $8.4 billion.

In other words, the feds take the equivalent of the entire royalties the Alberta government receives from its oil and gas industry PLUS $900 million.

So, before British Columbians go ballistic, Manitobans go mental and Ontarians ogle Alberta's oil wealth and ever-growing surplus, there's a few things the ROC needs to understand, and more importantly -- DO -- before Albertans ever agree willingly to share MORE of their hard won surplus with the jealous masses outside of our borders.

* When every single other province in Canada blows up one of its biggest and most important hospitals -- as the Alberta government (wrongly) did here in Calgary -- and closes every single other inner-city hospital in its largest city to boot, then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you.

* When every other kid in the country spends as much time being bused to and from school as Calgary and Edmonton kids do (which is the highest in the country for urban children -- because not enough schools were built in new neighbourhoods) -- then we'll consider sending you more of our hard-earned money.

* When every other province scraps paying for kindergarten for a few years, like the Tories did (which was wrong) then we'll consider sharing even more.

* When every single MLA or MPP in every other provincial legislature in the country willingly takes a 5% wage cut -- like Premier Ralph Klein did, along with every other public sector worker -- then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you. Indeed, while the first action Klein did as premier was to cut his salary by 5% and do away with MLA platinum pension plans, in contrast, the very first thing the B.C. Liberal government did when it was swept to power was to give itself a 5% wage INCREASE and then expect wage cuts from everyone else. For shame.

That's right folks in the ROC. It hasn't been easy. Albertans -- all of us -- put up with considerable hardships to get into this enviable financial position and most of us did it without carping.

Yes, we're going to have a multi-billion dollar surplus this year, but we also have a $7-billion infrastructure debt for all those roads schools and hospitals that never got built or maintained so we could be debt free.

But most importantly, Albertans didn't elect successive federal Liberal governments who waste and steal billions of dollars annually. The ROC does. So don't blame us.

And another thing to keep in mind. Waaay back when the Athabasca oil sands were being developed and oil sold for just a few dollars a barrel, it cost Syncrude and other companies more than $30 a barrel to make oil out of that sticky sand.

It took enormous vision and considerable risk for the Alberta government and Alberta industry leaders to continue investing in oil sands development during those money losing years. Care to share a cut of those losses? No, we didn't think so.

LINKY HERE

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 11:46 AM

Just spend it before they come and try to take it...

I'm sure Klien and a few hookers could go through that dough over the course of a week or so.

I kid, I kid. I don't see why Albertans should redistribute their provincial wealth beyond their borders. They should spend it on roads, hospitals and schools.

(I think they should use it to buy Newfoundland).

the_marq · 08-31-2005, 11:51 AM

A little bit of sharing with the rest of the country would not kill us... that's what neighbours do.

Furthermore, if we don't send cash to other provinces they're just going to send us their unemployed. IE: Everyone from the poorer provinces are going to move to Calgary.

One way or another Alberta is going to wind up 'taking care' of out-of-work BC'ers, NFLD'ers etc... Let's be grown up about this and share a little of our good fortune and planning.

streak_56 · 08-31-2005, 12:10 PM

Well.... I gotta say.... as an Albertan.... I LOVE the article. Though, I think that during our time of need that we got little if not nothing from other provinces. I'm sorry but I think everyone else gets the short end of the stick this time. I would agree, spend it on infrastructure, healthcare and education. That would make Alberta a better place.

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 01:12 PM

Do you guys think that Alberta could have done this without their natural location sitting over an oil field?

Albertans think that their present situation is the direct result of hard work, dedication, careful planning and foresight.

I say fuck that, it is due to 65$us/bl oil, and if/when the price dips (like it did in the 80's) then Alberta will be crying the blues again.

They won the fiscal lottery, and are now telling their family to pound salt when we ask for our share.

Don't worry alberta, we won't push the issue. You can keep your windfall. Just don't get pissed off if the mood around the dinner table changes.

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 01:15 PM

/me kicks Ben under the table

Ben... your just miffed 'cause no one can remember where you're from.

(pass the bread please?)

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 01:23 PM

Hahaha...

I am everywhere.

Although I have been pretty vague about it, I have mentioned it before.

20 bucks to whoever can guess where I am. Better yet, 20 litres in GAS!

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 01:25 PM

Some western city between Winnipeg and Calgary...

Medicine Hat?
Brandon?

Damn... I can't think of anything else in between those two places...

BigBen · 08-31-2005, 01:41 PM

You'd better be kidding or I am going to Reach through this monitor and fucking strangle you!

Charlatan · 08-31-2005, 01:46 PM

I guess I should stop yanking your chain long enough to say...

It sounds like a part of the female anatomy...

It isn't Delores...

Wait for it... Big finish!

Regina!

(you're so cute when you get all hot under the collar like that... you big lug)

/end threadjack

feelgood · 08-31-2005, 02:54 PM

Ok BigBen and Charlatan, you guys finish threadjackin?

I agree with the whole article, if Canada wants our money, they'd better show something for it

james t kirk · 08-31-2005, 03:49 PM

Alberta could always join the United States and then their oil would come under the control of the Department of the Interior and so too would the cash generated.

National Energy Policy - a walk in the park compared to the above.

I would suggest that Alberta use the windfall to diversify their economy because oil once it's burned up is gone forever. When the tap runs dry, Alberta will need something other than oil to fall back on.

kramus · 08-31-2005, 04:37 PM

I like the idea of a province that can be an example of a working system that is long-term managing it's resources. We have our share of the other kind.

Reach for the carrot and pull the damned cart ROC.

note - I am an Ontario boy who enjoyed living in Calgary for a year back in 1978 - and I noticed even then that the provincial government was working on the one-dimensional nature of the "grease industry" driving the economy.

aberkok · 08-31-2005, 06:21 PM

My modest wish for the new wealth is that they invest more money in the awesome Banff Centre for the Arts! The music faculty there has been trying to make it free admission for the last few years, but the money's just not there yet.

blahblah454 · 08-31-2005, 07:20 PM

I have no problem with sharing Albertain wealth, as long as the money is used wisely and properly. If people are going to be using the money as welfair so they can sit on there lazy asses and do nothing then thats wrong. If the money is going to be used to help people who really need it such as the ill that really need help. not the morons in the ER room because they cut their leg or stubbed their toe. I would be alright with Alberta money going to Saskatchewan roads or Saskatchewan farmers, we need to encourage farmers to continue farming.... Right now farmers are losing money each year and thats just wrong, they feed the rest of Canada!! Give them some incentive to work the fields!

But I do think that most of the money should stay in Alberta and help develope its other industries and fix all the roads and buildings.

skier · 08-31-2005, 07:57 PM

The statements that impacted me most were these:

Quote:

$9.3 billion -- or $2,914 per Albertan

The royalties Alberta received from the oil and gas industry -- which includes natural gas, crude oil, synthetic crude and bitumen -- for the fiscal year of 2004-2005 was $8.4 billion.

In other words, the feds take the equivalent of the entire royalties the Alberta government receives from its oil and gas industry PLUS $900 million.

The whole point of the article is that oil is not the reason we are a "have" province. Sure, oil is a large part of the albertan economy, like the service industries in ontario, but the reason we have money is because we sacrificed many luxuries and necessities in order to achieve this goal.

Charlatan · 09-01-2005, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skier

...but the reason we have money is because we sacrificed many luxuries and necessities in order to achieve this goal.

This just gave me the image of Albertans all living in sod huts like the original settlers... churning their own butter.

streak_56 · 09-01-2005, 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

This just gave me the image of Albertans all living in sod huts like the original settlers... churning their own butter.

Over 7 billion in infrastructure upgrades put on hold, health care the shits and well.... can't complain about taxes though.... no PST here.

That might be another arguement, that Ontario, BC... along with a few others have PST taxes so they are creating their own revenue. I would say that we could send some money out for other provinces that do not have PST. But I guess I have little sympathy for the Provinces that do have it.

Janey · 09-01-2005, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by streak_56

Over 7 billion in infrastructure upgrades put on hold, health care the shits and well.... can't complain about taxes though.... no PST here.

That might be another arguement, that Ontario, BC... along with a few others have PST taxes so they are creating their own revenue. I would say that we could send some money out for other provinces that do not have PST. But I guess I have little sympathy for the Provinces that do have it.

i think that alta is the only one without pst.

feelgood · 09-01-2005, 08:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

i think that alta is the only one without pst.

You're forgetting the territories

Janey · 09-01-2005, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by feelgood

You're forgetting the territories

ok if you want to include the federal territories (not really provinces)

Lead543 · 09-05-2005, 11:03 PM

I think all the money should go to me...to pay my tuition

(Although the province was nice enough to grant me a wooping $3.75 bursary)

Demeter · 10-01-2005, 04:41 PM

As an Albertan I am upset about this whole surplus. I feel the money has been stolen from us all these years, to make the government look like a bunch of heros. Our schools are underfunded, and outgrowing themselves.
This year my childrens' school has 300 more kids, and 2 less staff than last year. We just found out a couple of days ago that funding promised us to build an addition and upgrade the thirty year old school was again pulled for the umpteeth year in a row.
I am currently waiting for surgery that should have been done months ago due to cutbacks. Everyday I have chronic facial & head pain.
Our property tax went up 600 bucks and our streets are full of potholes & peeled asphalt. We've spent over $1000 this year on vehicle repairs due simply to the terrible road conditions.
And of course, I live right in the middle of oil country and our city pays the highest utility costs in the country.
I wish the money would go back to the schools, and the hospitals, the social programs, the seniors, and the disabled.
Ralph's $400 donation might be enough to pay my December gas bill. All that money paid out will be going right back in the government coffers. They won't lose a dime over this.

skier · 10-01-2005, 10:54 PM

I'm really upset about this 400$ i'm getting.

WOW, great, 400$! This money can't really do much for me. Yes, it'll take some pressure off tuition and groceries, but I much much rather have 500 Million spent on infrastructure projects or developing service/tech industries, a Billion on Education, and the rest on some universal health care, so that we aren't so friggin dependent on our resources, and reap social profit from the sacrifices we made to eliminate our debt. Individually, my money has no strength for change, pooled together, the money from the surplus could have done SO MUCH to make alberta better. Thank you for flushing Alberta's surplus down the toilet, Klein. It was really smart, the way you're trying to appeal to our greed. Next time, could you just hold on to it for a rainy day? Fuck.

08-31-2005, 11:34 AM	#1 (permalink)
canucker Crazy	A note to the rest of Canada: Hands Off I don't know why, I usally thinks her columns suck, but this one was good: Licia Corbella Wed, August 31, 2005 A note to the rest of Canada: Hands off By LICIA CORBELLA There has been much talk of late about the Surplus Envy the rest of Canada (ROC) has for Alberta. Methinks Sigmund Freud might have had something interesting to say about that. But first, some hard facts for all those whiners who are eyeing Alberta's conservatively projected $2.8-billion surplus. In 2004, the feds collected $25.6 billion gross in personal and corporate income taxes from Albertans -- the largest per-capita haul in Canada. According to Tracy Balash, spokesperson for Alberta Finance, Alberta receives about $16.3 billion back in federal government services and programs. That means the net contribution Albertans generously share with the ROC comes to $9.3 billion -- or $2,914 per Albertan -- by far the largest per capita transfer payments of any other province. Next in line is Ontario at $1,856 per Ontarian. Now this next bit of info is important -- even somewhat shocking -- and shouldn't be lost on anyone -- particularly Ontario Premier Dalton McGuinty, who is concerned that Ontario will soon become a "have-not" province and who described Alberta's oil wealth, as the "elephant in the room" during the recent premiers' conference in Banff. The royalties Alberta received from the oil and gas industry -- which includes natural gas, crude oil, synthetic crude and bitumen -- for the fiscal year of 2004-2005 was $8.4 billion. In other words, the feds take the equivalent of the entire royalties the Alberta government receives from its oil and gas industry PLUS $900 million. So, before British Columbians go ballistic, Manitobans go mental and Ontarians ogle Alberta's oil wealth and ever-growing surplus, there's a few things the ROC needs to understand, and more importantly -- DO -- before Albertans ever agree willingly to share MORE of their hard won surplus with the jealous masses outside of our borders. * When every single other province in Canada blows up one of its biggest and most important hospitals -- as the Alberta government (wrongly) did here in Calgary -- and closes every single other inner-city hospital in its largest city to boot, then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you. * When every other kid in the country spends as much time being bused to and from school as Calgary and Edmonton kids do (which is the highest in the country for urban children -- because not enough schools were built in new neighbourhoods) -- then we'll consider sending you more of our hard-earned money. * When every other province scraps paying for kindergarten for a few years, like the Tories did (which was wrong) then we'll consider sharing even more. * When every single MLA or MPP in every other provincial legislature in the country willingly takes a 5% wage cut -- like Premier Ralph Klein did, along with every other public sector worker -- then we'll consider sharing more of our hard-earned money with you. Indeed, while the first action Klein did as premier was to cut his salary by 5% and do away with MLA platinum pension plans, in contrast, the very first thing the B.C. Liberal government did when it was swept to power was to give itself a 5% wage INCREASE and then expect wage cuts from everyone else. For shame. That's right folks in the ROC. It hasn't been easy. Albertans -- all of us -- put up with considerable hardships to get into this enviable financial position and most of us did it without carping. Yes, we're going to have a multi-billion dollar surplus this year, but we also have a $7-billion infrastructure debt for all those roads schools and hospitals that never got built or maintained so we could be debt free. But most importantly, Albertans didn't elect successive federal Liberal governments who waste and steal billions of dollars annually. The ROC does. So don't blame us. And another thing to keep in mind. Waaay back when the Athabasca oil sands were being developed and oil sold for just a few dollars a barrel, it cost Syncrude and other companies more than $30 a barrel to make oil out of that sticky sand. It took enormous vision and considerable risk for the Alberta government and Alberta industry leaders to continue investing in oil sands development during those money losing years. Care to share a cut of those losses? No, we didn't think so. LINKY HERE __________________ Go hard or go home; Just don't go home hard.

08-31-2005, 11:46 AM	#2 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Just spend it before they come and try to take it... I'm sure Klien and a few hookers could go through that dough over the course of a week or so. I kid, I kid. I don't see why Albertans should redistribute their provincial wealth beyond their borders. They should spend it on roads, hospitals and schools. (I think they should use it to buy Newfoundland). __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-31-2005, 11:51 AM	#3 (permalink)
the_marq All hail the Mountain King Location: Black Mesa	A little bit of sharing with the rest of the country would not kill us... that's what neighbours do. Furthermore, if we don't send cash to other provinces they're just going to send us their unemployed. IE: Everyone from the poorer provinces are going to move to Calgary. One way or another Alberta is going to wind up 'taking care' of out-of-work BC'ers, NFLD'ers etc... Let's be grown up about this and share a little of our good fortune and planning. __________________ The Truth: Johnny Cash could have kicked Bruce Lee's ass if he wanted to. #3 in a series

08-31-2005, 01:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Do you guys think that Alberta could have done this without their natural location sitting over an oil field? Albertans think that their present situation is the direct result of hard work, dedication, careful planning and foresight. I say fuck that, it is due to 65$us/bl oil, and if/when the price dips (like it did in the 80's) then Alberta will be crying the blues again. They won the fiscal lottery, and are now telling their family to pound salt when we ask for our share. Don't worry alberta, we won't push the issue. You can keep your windfall. Just don't get pissed off if the mood around the dinner table changes. __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 01:15 PM	#6 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	/me kicks Ben under the table Ben... your just miffed 'cause no one can remember where you're from. (pass the bread please?) __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-31-2005, 12:10 PM	#4 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	Well.... I gotta say.... as an Albertan.... I LOVE the article. Though, I think that during our time of need that we got little if not nothing from other provinces. I'm sorry but I think everyone else gets the short end of the stick this time. I would agree, spend it on infrastructure, healthcare and education. That would make Alberta a better place.

08-31-2005, 01:23 PM	#7 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	Hahaha... I am everywhere. Although I have been pretty vague about it, I have mentioned it before. 20 bucks to whoever can guess where I am. Better yet, 20 litres in GAS! __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 01:25 PM	#8 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Some western city between Winnipeg and Calgary... Medicine Hat? Brandon? Damn... I can't think of anything else in between those two places... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-31-2005, 01:41 PM	#9 (permalink)
BigBen Comedian Location: Use the search button	You'd better be kidding or I am going to Reach through this monitor and fucking strangle you! __________________ 3.141592654 Hey, if you are impressed with my memorizing pi to 10 digits, you should see the size of my penis.

08-31-2005, 01:46 PM	#10 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I guess I should stop yanking your chain long enough to say... It sounds like a part of the female anatomy... It isn't Delores... Wait for it... Big finish! Regina! (you're so cute when you get all hot under the collar like that... you big lug) /end threadjack __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-31-2005, 02:54 PM	#11 (permalink)
feelgood Free Mars! Location: I dunno, there's white people around me saying "eh" all the time	Ok BigBen and Charlatan, you guys finish threadjackin? I agree with the whole article, if Canada wants our money, they'd better show something for it __________________ Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

08-31-2005, 03:49 PM	#12 (permalink)
james t kirk Junkie Location: Toronto	Alberta could always join the United States and then their oil would come under the control of the Department of the Interior and so too would the cash generated. National Energy Policy - a walk in the park compared to the above. I would suggest that Alberta use the windfall to diversify their economy because oil once it's burned up is gone forever. When the tap runs dry, Alberta will need something other than oil to fall back on.

08-31-2005, 04:37 PM	#13 (permalink)
kramus loving the curves Location: my Lady's manor	I like the idea of a province that can be an example of a working system that is long-term managing it's resources. We have our share of the other kind. Reach for the carrot and pull the damned cart ROC. note - I am an Ontario boy who enjoyed living in Calgary for a year back in 1978 - and I noticed even then that the provincial government was working on the one-dimensional nature of the "grease industry" driving the economy. __________________ And now to disengage the clutch of the forebrain ... I'm going with this - if you like artwork visit http://markfineart.ca

08-31-2005, 06:21 PM	#14 (permalink)
aberkok “Wrong is right.” Location: toronto	My modest wish for the new wealth is that they invest more money in the awesome Banff Centre for the Arts! The music faculty there has been trying to make it free admission for the last few years, but the money's just not there yet. __________________ !check out my new blog! http://arkanamusic.wordpress.com Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

08-31-2005, 07:20 PM	#15 (permalink)
blahblah454 Let's put a smile on that face Location: On the road...	I have no problem with sharing Albertain wealth, as long as the money is used wisely and properly. If people are going to be using the money as welfair so they can sit on there lazy asses and do nothing then thats wrong. If the money is going to be used to help people who really need it such as the ill that really need help. not the morons in the ER room because they cut their leg or stubbed their toe. I would be alright with Alberta money going to Saskatchewan roads or Saskatchewan farmers, we need to encourage farmers to continue farming.... Right now farmers are losing money each year and thats just wrong, they feed the rest of Canada!! Give them some incentive to work the fields! But I do think that most of the money should stay in Alberta and help develope its other industries and fix all the roads and buildings.

09-05-2005, 11:03 PM	#22 (permalink)
Lead543 Registered User Location: Calgary	I think all the money should go to me...to pay my tuition (Although the province was nice enough to grant me a wooping $3.75 bursary)

10-01-2005, 04:41 PM	#23 (permalink)
Demeter Psycho	As an Albertan I am upset about this whole surplus. I feel the money has been stolen from us all these years, to make the government look like a bunch of heros. Our schools are underfunded, and outgrowing themselves. This year my childrens' school has 300 more kids, and 2 less staff than last year. We just found out a couple of days ago that funding promised us to build an addition and upgrade the thirty year old school was again pulled for the umpteeth year in a row. I am currently waiting for surgery that should have been done months ago due to cutbacks. Everyday I have chronic facial & head pain. Our property tax went up 600 bucks and our streets are full of potholes & peeled asphalt. We've spent over $1000 this year on vehicle repairs due simply to the terrible road conditions. And of course, I live right in the middle of oil country and our city pays the highest utility costs in the country. I wish the money would go back to the schools, and the hospitals, the social programs, the seniors, and the disabled. Ralph's $400 donation might be enough to pay my December gas bill. All that money paid out will be going right back in the government coffers. They won't lose a dime over this. __________________ I am not bound to please thee with my answers. William Shakespeare

10-01-2005, 10:54 PM	#24 (permalink)
skier Rawr! Location: Edmontania	I'm really upset about this 400$ i'm getting. WOW, great, 400$! This money can't really do much for me. Yes, it'll take some pressure off tuition and groceries, but I much much rather have 500 Million spent on infrastructure projects or developing service/tech industries, a Billion on Education, and the rest on some universal health care, so that we aren't so friggin dependent on our resources, and reap social profit from the sacrifices we made to eliminate our debt. Individually, my money has no strength for change, pooled together, the money from the surplus could have done SO MUCH to make alberta better. Thank you for flushing Alberta's surplus down the toilet, Klein. It was really smart, the way you're trying to appeal to our greed. Next time, could you just hold on to it for a rainy day? Fuck. __________________ "Asking a bomb squad if an old bomb is still "real" is not the best thing to do if you want to save it." - denim