Air India Trail - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JJRousseau · 03-17-2005, 06:42 PM

The moderators of this board have closed both topics regarding the verdict of the Air India trail and the "shame" it has caused all of Canada. As a Canadian, I don't want lightmayo's comments to stand un-rebutted. They are thoughtless and offensive to me. This is a hot topic in both countries (all around the world) and worthy of discussion so with the moderator's indulgence, I would like to re-open the topic here.

From my view, it seemed apparent that the accused had some role to play in the events leading to the bombing and I imagine the pressure on the judge to find these men guilty was immense. As much as this verdict saddens me, after reading the judge's comments, I applaud him for not bowing to that pressure. I suggest it is a credit to the Canadian justice system that allowed this verdict. Making scapegoats would have been easier on everyone.

Obviously there is a lot of fault with the way the investigation was handled And possibly with our immigration laws but that is a whole other topic.

Antikarma · 03-17-2005, 07:12 PM

Thank you JJ, for doing it so I didn't have to.

/bow

vox_rox · 03-17-2005, 08:12 PM

Firstly, it should be noted that the previous thread was closed because the poster posted the same (and extemely flammatory) post in two seperate threads. It makes sense that they closed them, and they weren't worthy of TFP content anyway.

However, I am glad that JJ brought it back up because it is a touchy subject and one that I think we could learn a thing or two about if we talked about it rationally.

Now, having said that, I think I have to say that the judge did the right thing. Regardless of what EXACTLY these men did, there is no court in the world (I hope) that would convict them on the basis of the evidence that turned up in this total disaster of an investigation.

We could talk for hours on who caused these problems and what they were, and we could point all kinds of fingers as well. But beyond that it is worth noting that this case was EXTREMELY complex and even a well-organized investigation, in ANY country, may not have found the evidence needed to convict these two men.

So, What I am saying here? Well, if these men were found guilty in this ridiculous trial, it would mean, essentially, that anyone could be implicated in any terrorist act, and sent to jail, without any really good reason for doing so. By acquitting these two men, the courts proved that the standard of proof is high enough to allow for reasonable safety against wrongful conviction, which should make us all happy.

What should not make us happy is that many people died for exactly NO GOOD REASON, and that these two men, who CLEARLY had something to do with their deaths, were not held accountable.

Can you blame Canada? Maybe, but not likely. Can you blame Canadians in general? I won't even answer that - it's ridiculous. Would these men have been convicted if the plane left from the US, or Egypt, or Brazil? Who knows!

Still, the plane bomb was a terrible incident, this trial was a truly unfortunate fiasco, and I think it's time we all stop pointing fingers and start learning lessons.

Peace,

Pierre

Lebell · 03-18-2005, 02:40 PM

Whatever your feelings, posts must still follow forum rules.

Antikarma · 03-18-2005, 07:23 PM

Hehehehe, anyone else catch the reply in email that was summarily deleted? I'll give the mods props on catching it really fast, but I mean, it was good for entertainment value.

For insight into my opinion, I'm sure everyone caught my post in the locked thread on this board

JJRousseau · 03-18-2005, 09:50 PM

lebell, not sure if that was addressed to me? I'm OK with the rules. I was stating why I restarted the topic.

Antikarma, missed your comment completely?? What happened?

I'm also disappointed that some of the victims' families are now dragging out the racial card. I don't want a public inquiry. And I wouldn't want one if the victims were white.

Antikarma · 03-19-2005, 01:12 AM

I have any responces to the post to be emailed to me. Lightmayo made a response that was deleted before I could even hit the reply button. I'm not sure that it should be reposted, I dunno why it was deleted but I'm not one to question the mods. Feel free to private message me and I'll send it to you, for the SAKE of intellectual debate.

Charlatan · 03-19-2005, 04:25 AM

I am still working on an opinion on this one. While I am familiar with the case (naturally) and the bombing. I am not up to speed on what when wrong.

I am dismayed at the amount of money spent and they either a) still don't know who did this or b) know who did it but couldn't get the case built against them...

In general I would say that I fall in with the lot of you who suggest, if they didn't have the evidence they shouldn't be convicted.

I'd rather they spend more money trying to get a conviction rather an spend it on another inquiry.

Janey · 03-20-2005, 04:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antikarma

Thank you JJ, for doing it so I didn't have to.

/bow

double that. Thanks. i was worried that this thread topic would be swept under the carpet too...

Janey · 03-20-2005, 04:49 AM

Actually, I fall in the inquiry side. from what I understand, all the effort and money expended resulted in a poorly concocted case by the Crown. I don't doubt that there was a little of back-burner-itis happening because, after all, it was not a Canadian airline, it didn't happen in Canada, and most of the people were Indian-Canadians.

The fact that a judge could assemble such a large volume of legal technicalities (approx 1,000 pages???) to dismiss the charges??? wtf??? Who exactly didn't do their job (speak up prsocuters, CSIS, RCMP). We do need an inquiry and we do need a new trial performed by competant professionals.

Antikarma · 03-20-2005, 12:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Janey

The fact that a judge could assemble such a large volume of legal technicalities (approx 1,000 pages???) to dismiss the charges??? wtf??? Who exactly didn't do their job (speak up prsocuters, CSIS, RCMP). We do need an inquiry and we do need a new trial performed by competant professionals.

As I understand it, and please remember I'm by no means an authority on the situation; The RCMP and CSIS had hard physical evidence, a taped confession, and wiretap evidence corraborating it all, but mishandled it so poorly that the judge discounted it all and turned the entire case into one of Heresay.

Janey · 03-20-2005, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antikarma

As I understand it, and please remember I'm by no means an authority on the situation; The RCMP and CSIS had hard physical evidence, a taped confession, and wiretap evidence corraborating it all, but mishandled it so poorly that the judge discounted it all and turned the entire case into one of Heresay.

exactly. So what are we paying these police for? or who is training them? absolutely ridiculous.

streak_56 · 03-26-2005, 09:50 PM

I love my country, I love where its going....

but sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Its horrible that the vitcums of this case and their families will never see the men who commited these crimes come to justice. I formost will not place blame on anyone. The police screwed up, the prosecutor had nothing to go on. The lives of many people have been lost... and all for just 20 years worth of publicity. I morn their loss, and I pray that such a mockery of the Canadian justice system will never happen in such an open and shut case.

03-17-2005, 06:42 PM	#1 (permalink)
JJRousseau Psycho Location: Vancouver, Canada	Air India Trail The moderators of this board have closed both topics regarding the verdict of the Air India trail and the "shame" it has caused all of Canada. As a Canadian, I don't want lightmayo's comments to stand un-rebutted. They are thoughtless and offensive to me. This is a hot topic in both countries (all around the world) and worthy of discussion so with the moderator's indulgence, I would like to re-open the topic here. From my view, it seemed apparent that the accused had some role to play in the events leading to the bombing and I imagine the pressure on the judge to find these men guilty was immense. As much as this verdict saddens me, after reading the judge's comments, I applaud him for not bowing to that pressure. I suggest it is a credit to the Canadian justice system that allowed this verdict. Making scapegoats would have been easier on everyone. Obviously there is a lot of fault with the way the investigation was handled And possibly with our immigration laws but that is a whole other topic. __________________ Take from the philosopher the pleasure of being heard and his desire for knowledge ceases.

03-17-2005, 07:12 PM	#2 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	Thank you JJ, for doing it so I didn't have to. /bow __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

03-17-2005, 08:12 PM	#3 (permalink)
vox_rox Psycho Location: Comfy Little Bungalow	Firstly, it should be noted that the previous thread was closed because the poster posted the same (and extemely flammatory) post in two seperate threads. It makes sense that they closed them, and they weren't worthy of TFP content anyway. However, I am glad that JJ brought it back up because it is a touchy subject and one that I think we could learn a thing or two about if we talked about it rationally. Now, having said that, I think I have to say that the judge did the right thing. Regardless of what EXACTLY these men did, there is no court in the world (I hope) that would convict them on the basis of the evidence that turned up in this total disaster of an investigation. We could talk for hours on who caused these problems and what they were, and we could point all kinds of fingers as well. But beyond that it is worth noting that this case was EXTREMELY complex and even a well-organized investigation, in ANY country, may not have found the evidence needed to convict these two men. So, What I am saying here? Well, if these men were found guilty in this ridiculous trial, it would mean, essentially, that anyone could be implicated in any terrorist act, and sent to jail, without any really good reason for doing so. By acquitting these two men, the courts proved that the standard of proof is high enough to allow for reasonable safety against wrongful conviction, which should make us all happy. What should not make us happy is that many people died for exactly NO GOOD REASON, and that these two men, who CLEARLY had something to do with their deaths, were not held accountable. Can you blame Canada? Maybe, but not likely. Can you blame Canadians in general? I won't even answer that - it's ridiculous. Would these men have been convicted if the plane left from the US, or Egypt, or Brazil? Who knows! Still, the plane bomb was a terrible incident, this trial was a truly unfortunate fiasco, and I think it's time we all stop pointing fingers and start learning lessons. Peace, Pierre __________________ --- There is no such thing as strong coffee - only weak people. ---

03-18-2005, 02:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Whatever your feelings, posts must still follow forum rules. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

03-18-2005, 07:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	Hehehehe, anyone else catch the reply in email that was summarily deleted? I'll give the mods props on catching it really fast, but I mean, it was good for entertainment value. For insight into my opinion, I'm sure everyone caught my post in the locked thread on this board __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

03-18-2005, 09:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
JJRousseau Psycho Location: Vancouver, Canada	lebell, not sure if that was addressed to me? I'm OK with the rules. I was stating why I restarted the topic. Antikarma, missed your comment completely?? What happened? I'm also disappointed that some of the victims' families are now dragging out the racial card. I don't want a public inquiry. And I wouldn't want one if the victims were white. __________________ Take from the philosopher the pleasure of being heard and his desire for knowledge ceases. Last edited by JJRousseau; 03-18-2005 at 09:53 PM..

03-19-2005, 01:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
Antikarma Psycho Location: Yellowknife, NWT	I have any responces to the post to be emailed to me. Lightmayo made a response that was deleted before I could even hit the reply button. I'm not sure that it should be reposted, I dunno why it was deleted but I'm not one to question the mods. Feel free to private message me and I'll send it to you, for the SAKE of intellectual debate. __________________ "Whoever you are, go out into the evening, leaving your room, of which you know each bit; your house is the last before the infinite, whoever you are."

03-19-2005, 04:25 AM	#8 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am still working on an opinion on this one. While I am familiar with the case (naturally) and the bombing. I am not up to speed on what when wrong. I am dismayed at the amount of money spent and they either a) still don't know who did this or b) know who did it but couldn't get the case built against them... In general I would say that I fall in with the lot of you who suggest, if they didn't have the evidence they shouldn't be convicted. I'd rather they spend more money trying to get a conviction rather an spend it on another inquiry. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-20-2005, 04:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
Janey Junkie Location: Toronto	Actually, I fall in the inquiry side. from what I understand, all the effort and money expended resulted in a poorly concocted case by the Crown. I don't doubt that there was a little of back-burner-itis happening because, after all, it was not a Canadian airline, it didn't happen in Canada, and most of the people were Indian-Canadians. The fact that a judge could assemble such a large volume of legal technicalities (approx 1,000 pages???) to dismiss the charges??? wtf??? Who exactly didn't do their job (speak up prsocuters, CSIS, RCMP). We do need an inquiry and we do need a new trial performed by competant professionals.

03-26-2005, 09:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
streak_56 who ever said streaking was a bad thing? Location: Calgary	I love my country, I love where its going.... but sometimes you have to take the good with the bad. Its horrible that the vitcums of this case and their families will never see the men who commited these crimes come to justice. I formost will not place blame on anyone. The police screwed up, the prosecutor had nothing to go on. The lives of many people have been lost... and all for just 20 years worth of publicity. I morn their loss, and I pray that such a mockery of the Canadian justice system will never happen in such an open and shut case.