aberkok

On Monday my co-worker spent 15 mins. on the phone with one of our Chinese customers who speaks english so poorly that it takes several repetitions to understand what he says. To complicate matters, I work at a print music store, where we use a lot of specialized terms which are that much harder to understand when delivered in the thickest of Chinese accents.

After (understandably) being frustrated with the guy after finally filling his phone order, he went on a rant, saying how "we enable these people to continue..." My understanding of his mindset was that he would have the government implement tighter rules on immigrants and their level of english. He saw the fact that there are communities in this country who don't speak the native language as a problem.

I don't think this is such a big problem. I sure can get frustrated when I interact with a customer who can't express themselves, but I had to point out that this happens more with customers who speak english! As well, I think a great deal of economy is generated (especially in Toronto) by ethnic communities. That I might have trouble communicating with the more senior members of these communities is something I accept as a part of this country.

I think my co-worker, deep down, feels threatened.

I'd love to hear peoples' thoughts on this matter, and I think it's highly relevant as a Canadian issue, but I'd be happy if this were moved to General Discussion.

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feelgood

It's a problem. I don't give a shit whether or not you guys think I'm feeling threaten, just because somebody can't speak a language properly shouldn't be allowed in the country where English and French is the main language.

I'm in a group project at my school and it started out as myself, another english speaking Canadian, a Chinese student and a Russian student. For some reason, the Russian and the Canadian guy dropped out of the course, leaving me alone with this Chinese girl. I quickly discovered that she was very useless because of her poor english skills. She told me that this course was the only course she registered for and is spending most of her free time (BS) trying to read the textbook, totaling couple pages per night along with her fulltime job. She has a hard time trying to keep up with the instructor with what he is saying and I noticed that when he ask her question about a specific topic, it takes her like few minutes to simply understand his english, put it into context before answering it. Most people would quickly answer the question if they knew the answer. She knew the answer but she had no clue as to what he was talking about and had a hard time trying to spill out her answer in english. I find it hard to believe that my own school accepted her application simply because she finished her english course.

I even once had a Chinese co-worker telling me "Did you take a scream shot?" kept saying "scream shot, scream shot, scream shot" Couple of other guys had a hard time trying to figure out what the hell he was talking about. I finally figured out he was talking about "screenshot" He kept saying the letter N like it was M.

If I recall, one of the requirement to enter the country was to either speak english or french right? So, why the hell is our own government letting immigrants in that can't even speak either language properly? Same goes for colleges and universities. If you can't speak or read English very well, how the hell are you gonna get through life in this country? Everything is written or spoken in either English or French.

Basic knowledge of either language is not enough, you need to know how to do it properly.

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Charlatan

I don't think it is a big deal.

The fact that the guy can even say, "screamshot" shows he is trying.

For me, the key thing about immigrants is this: we want their offspring.

I don't care if the parents ever fully integrate so long as they have kids. The odds are very, very strong that those kids will be more Canadian than some of us... On top of this, they tend to be very productive members of society.

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feelgood

Well, I don't have a issue with immigrants trying to speak english or french, I have a issue with the government letting them in.

Plus, wouldn't their offsprings are more likely to speak english more similarily to their parents than the rest of the country? Better, but still isn't any better.

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cyrnel

Why do you suspect your co-worker feels threatened? Is it like the homophobe version of "threatened?" Maybe, deep down, he wants a thick accent and to have a tough time communicating?

I think you explained it. Communication difficulties can be frustrating. It subverts normal everyday processes. Verbal issues by phone pretty much wipe out the alternatives. No pictures, no hand gestures. Granted, patience with this sort of issue is part of customer service, but people will vent. Imagine reps on call clocks where efficient communication has a direct effect on their income. Argh.

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Elphaba

Aberkok, it is an issue your southern neighbor shares. I have many potential customers that call where it is obvious that English is a second language and there is some difficulty in understanding one another. I have worked to translate my industry specific questions into something more easily communicated and it has been helpful.

My position is twofold. My grandparents came to the US unable to speak English, but all of their children spoke it without an accent of any kind. They were also never taught the language of their parents which is such a shame. Also, I have no business criticizing someone's competence at attempting to learn English as a second language, when it is the only language I know. Occasionally, I have had people apologize for their poor use of English and I can only reply that I have zero ability in their language.

fresnelly

I don't think it's a big problem. Frustrating on occasion, but by and large, new immigrants are both hard working and pursuing a better life. These are valuable qualities that we want in our society. Your Chinese classmate put you in a tough spot, but shows great ambition (full time job + School)

Maybe they can't speak english when they arrive, but they can learn. (duh!) ESL books are the #1 library sign out catergory for a reason. Canada was built on the backs of immigrants and frankly speaking, locking them out, without any opportunity to prove themselves, is un-Canadian.

My dad escaped a brutal communist regime and came here in his 20's - without speaking a word of english. He worked his ass off, learned the language, went to university, fell in love, and became a doctor. He's been a pillar of the community and indespensible to the health care system ever since. I strongly reject the notion of a zero tolerance language policy.

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highthief

It's a problem, IMO. Sorry, but there are people who have been here for decades who have made no attempts to learn the language or the culture. While the large majority of immigrants do make the effort and do learn the language, there are some bad apples out there who need to be forced into official language lessons or be put on the next boat home. Bringing in other aspects of culture is fine - who doesn't like to head to the Danforth for some Greek food, for instance? But the fact that I have to spend extra dollars hiring 911 translators and police officer and community workers because some people have been too lazy to embrace the country, culture and language of this place is ridiculous.

I'm from Quebec, I live in Ontario, my parents are immigrants, my in-laws are immigrants - just so you know where I'm coming from.

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Charlatan

Not at all. I have grown up with many, many first gen immigrant kids. They don't speak accented English at all. In fact, they speak their parent's language (if at all) with an English accent.

Feelgood. You are in Alberta. There is a MASSIVE shortfall of labour. Massive. Given the negative birth rate in Canada, where do you suggest we get the labour?

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Elphaba

A repeat on my part, in case it was missed, in support of Charlatan's post:

feelgood

Yeah I'm aware of how labour shortage can be resolved through increased immigration, especially in Alberta but theres lots of situation where bad English can lead to bad situation.

For starters, an asian guy calls 911 on his cell phone and the operator can't get much out of his bad english, he dies, whose fault is that gonna be?

An Indian guy is walking along a street, and all of sudden he witneses somebody about to get overrun by a slow moving semi-trailer truck and tries to warn the driver of the truck but the driver doesn't understand him because his english sucks.

These situation probably doesn't happen everyday but at this rate, they probably will. Look at United States, they claim that English is the primary language and yet, you got more Spanish speaking people than English in United States than there is French speaking in English Canada.

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Elphaba

Then shouldn't we make some effort to speak Spanish, at least on a rudimentary level?

aberkok

When I said I think my co-worker feels threatened, it's because he suggested some action to correct the "problem." So what if we are "enabling" people to continue not to learn english by having a lax immigration policy.

If it was merely an annoyance, I don't think he'd suggest changing the immigration policy in order to keep these people out. I just think he overreacted to his unfortunate phone situation. I've been at that job 4 years and probably deciphered hundreds of calls like that and never once did I think it was a national problem. They're still customers aren't they? Apart from the fact that most immigrants are great people, if it weren't for them, we probably wouldn't have our jobs (me and my co-worker specifically). Chinese and Koreans probably form over 50% of our customer base at the store.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

feelgood

We DO have a lax immigration policy, because some provinces are experiencing shortage of labour and the government is trying to resolve that by getting more people into the country faster and at the same time, neglecting to teach them how to speak English and French properly.

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aberkok

So the dire consequence is that my co-worker's lack of patience is revealed? Or that hypothetical situations involving mute Indians result in someone being run over by a truck?

I know it can be frustrating, but I deal with poor english speakers on a weekly basis and I can deal.

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Warden Gentiles: "It? Perfectly innocent. But I can see how, if our roles were reversed, I might have you beaten with a pillowcase full of batteries."

highthief

What needs to happen is to have the immigrant flow redirected. Right now, 90% of all immigrants come to Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal, probably in that order, but Alberta is the one with the shortage of workers.

So Toronto sinks deeper into debt trying to pay for community services for an excess population we don't need while Calgary can't find anyone to drive the buses.

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snowy

/me waves

First generation American here.

Betcha would've never guessed, huh? My dad immigrated to the US as a youngster. Just to give you an idea of the family background--when they came here, my dad spoke zero English, as did my grandmother. My grandfather spoke English passably well, mostly because he studied it in school. Once my uncle was born in the States, they stopped speaking Dutch at home. Yet despite being immigrants, having a language barrier, and being extremely poor while my dad and uncle were kids, my grandparents managed to raise two men who have Master's degrees. My uncle is a bigwig in the Dept. of Corrections and my dad is an award-winning high school principal. My grandfather was also no drain on society--he was the top salesman for KLM (Royal Dutch Airlines) for several years running.

My point is--where would we be without immigrants? Both of our countries are made of them--from start to finish. The question is--how far back did you immigrate? Keep in mind that at one point it's more than likely that your relatives did not speak English or French. Shoot, NONE of my relatives spoke English natively when they came to the United States. Also, the labor market NEEDS immigration, regardless of where you live. There are, quite simply, jobs we are unable to perform (for whatever reason) that immigrants can and will do.

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feelgood

Calgary can't find anybody to drive the buses because nobody can find any house to live in Calgary.

Everybody keeps talking about how their family came from another country at some point time in history that they didn't speak a word of English. My grandparents were like that, they came from Netherlands during the second world war and spoke mainly Dutch.

But that isn't the issue here, the issue is that lately the government is not taking the time to ensure people can understand, speak and write English/French without having to cause its own citizens to tear their own hairs out.

That means 2/3s of immigrants can't get a job because they don't know how to speak either English or French. I question their usage of "can converse" because it could mean a wide degree of understanding either language and that can affect one's ability to get a job, especially for less than half of them.

Rest of the article here:
http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/030904/d030904a.htm

Even the government knows of this problem and isn't bothering to do anything about it. The article points out the main problem of not being able to speak, write and understand English or French is:

• Getting Health Care
• Finding Jobs
• Finding Housing
• Getting Education

I remember watching a segment on one of the news station out in Calgary that the city is hosting some semiars for taxi drivers to give them more training in English language for obvious reasons and that's not the way I want them to spend my taxpayer money, especially for a city that's facing budget shortfall

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Charlatan

Are you suggesting that the Federal or Provincial Governments set up or subsidize training in one of the official languages or are you suggesting that we don't let them in until they learn one of the languages first?

I'm not exactly clear on your position.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

feelgood

I think we should at least make sure that they get the official language training before they're legal land immigrant (or whatever they're called after they're accepted). Otherwise, if the government goes ahead and setup or subsidize training in the language, what is the chances of immigrants actually attending those trainings?

PS: I never make my position clear do I?

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Looking out the window, that's an act of war. Staring at my shoes, that's an act of war. Committing an act of war? Oh you better believe that's an act of war

Bob Biter

Well, Emploi Québec offers language training to both locals and immigrants who need to increase their English or French-speaking skills for job purposes. Quebec pays for everything as longs as the participant goes to class and shows steady improvement. I know this because I'm a teacher in one of the schools to which Emploi Quebec funnels people. So, there is an effort on the provincial level to get people (not just immigrants) to increase their language skills.

Of course, there has to be initial interest on the part of the individual. If an immigrant is simply not interested in pursuing language courses, and just completes whatever bare minimum is necessary to enter the country (or has contacts here to bypass the process entirely), then there's nothing that can be done.

Personally, I can't imagine why a newly arrived immigrant wouldn't do anything in his/her power to learn at least one of Canada's official languages. When I lived in Japan, I felt ashamed and useless when I couldn't communicate effectively in Japanese, so I busted my ass to get my level up. Because of this, I share feelgood's view on the current topic, but the realist in me knows that tracking down people and testing their knowledge would be costly and time-consuming. Therefore, we'll all have to deal with the occasional snag.

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Elphaba

Waves back at Snowy

I am a third generation Norwegian, Dutch & EU mutt. My grandparents could not speak English, and insisted that their children know nothing but English. They were just one of the many hard working immigrant groups that helped build America in the early 1900's. I am very proud of my "mutt" heritage.

nrclark

Threatened? ... it sounds like your co-worker has no patience, plain and simple. Ask him to reverse the situation. Would he/she learn to speak a foreign language, adopt another countries culture "over night"? Me thinks not. We should be honoured that this person wants to be here in our country instead of their own ... tell your co-worker to grow up.

metalgeek

I'm ok with people coming into Canada with only a little bit of English, as most of them do learn it reasonably quickly. (the one's who don't are, as the article said older family members usually)
My current issue (Since I'm a student I suppose) is the English level of some of my TA's and fellow students. Universities need to raise the standards for English ability for the students. I've had some TA's you could not understand, the labs were absolutly painful, just because of the barrier to communication. The other issue in when doing group work with undergraduate students. I've had some where someone's entire part of a project had to be rewritten due the the horrendous English it contained. Asking them to do it again would be useless, so someone else had to rewrite it all, on top of their own work. To a large extent IETLS/TOEFL and the like have become a bit of a joke, since students are now being taught exactly how to pass it, even if they have rudimentry English skills at best.

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Bob Biter

Woah there! I'm gonna have to disagree on that, metalgeek. At my school, any student that wants to take TOEFL or TOEIC has to have advanced grammar, skills (reading / writing / vocab) and conversation levels.

TOEFL is made for students who want to study at an English university (in Montreal, that means McGill or Concordia), and is designed to make them ready to tackle a wide variety of subjects.

TOEIC is more for students who need English certification for jobs (mostly in Asia), and focusses on grammar and listening skills, rather than oral fluency.

In both tests, questions are changed constantly and nobody gets the same one twice. It is therefore impossible to train a student on how to answer specific questions. Classes are designed to give students the ability to understand and adapt to each exam (some people take the tests more than once just to be exposed to different questions).

My school doesn't offer classes on IETLS preparation, so I can't comment on that one. However, as I've taught classes on TOEIC and TOEFL, let me assure that rudimentary English skills are NOT enough to pass!

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Martian

So if I'm understanding this, 1 in 5 immigrants aren't fluent in English and the ones who do speak English don't consider the language barrier a problem?

Well, I'm shocked.

I can't throw my heritage out there - fact is, my family is entirely from Scottish and Irish roots; so far as I know, all of my ancestors who've lived in Canada came here from another English speaking nation.

All the same, I certainly take no issue with immigrants who enter the country with no more than a basic grasp of one of our languages. I'm well aware that there are those who abuse the system. There are those who abuse the welfare system as well, but I was certainly in favour of it when I was unemployed and needed that money to keep living until I could find a job.

Fact is, if you set up a system that helps people, there are those who will find a way to take advantage of it. Given that we have those big labour shortfalls, does it really make sense to close our borders because of those who don't speak the language very well?

They say the best way to learn a new language is to immerse yourself in it. I've never been anywhere that didn't speak English or French as an official language, so I've never been able to test that myself, but all the same. I'm in favour of giving folks an opportunity. Whether they take it or not is entirely up to them.

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