Strange Famous

Since there have been a number of debates about this issue, I wanted to start a discussion to set out my own views, and to see if it is possible to debate them actually in terms of the argument and not personalities.

I understand that some people take real pleasure in cookery and the whole arena of food... in finding and sourcing rare ingredients, ingredients that are fresh and in season and local. I spend a lot of money in my life following football. If somebody else chooses to spend a lot of monet in their life on expensive ingredients, its not for me to say that their choice or more or less valid than mine, its a hobby.

I dont have any issue with people who have dinner parties
I dont have any problem with people who drink wine rather than beer
I dont have any criticism of someone who wants to spend two hours effort and half a day time making their own bread rather than spending £0.99 to buy fresh bake from a baker which to me would taste just as good.

_

But I dont see why they want to criticise me if I buy my bread rather than bake it. I dont understand why some people have a problem with a pizza that is made in two minutes with 4 ingredients. I dont get why anyone has an issue if I like pasta and a nice tomato sauce better than I like half baked swordfish served with rissoto rice and asparagus foam, etc etc etc - whatever YOU would call a nice meal.

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Let me tell you, when I share my recipes on this board - I dont think that in a blind taste test they would be as nice as someone who works as a chef.

I dont think I am a better cook than someone who does it for a living. If I was, they shouldnt be in that job.

But I do believe there are a LOT of people out there who are just like I was say two years ago:

Eating junk food, take outs, pre-made meals you heat in the microwave, sandwiches and crisps and trash rather than meals. People who dont cook hardly at all because they are lazy, just dont have any recipes, just dont have the confidence or the habit.

And when I post my recipe, I am offering it to those people.

These are not people who will likely EVER care about food in the way you do.
These are not people who will ever have your passion, or who will ever see food as a creative art.

But they are people who can become like I am now... get into the habit of making simple, cheap meals. Realise that homemade food most times tastes nicer than junkfood. Realise that you can put together healthy, cheap, tasty meals cheaply and quickly and simply.

_

And when the food elitists say "how dare I jokingly use the title chef when I talk about how I chef a meal" When they say I insult those who really love food when I compare my own simple meals... I tell you honestly - there are more people in the world who given the choice, 99/100 times would prefer to make a pizza in 5 minutes than spend an hour making the dough from scratch. At least 9 out of 10 people would rather put some cheese and tomato and onion on a pitta bread and grill it than spend two hours making everything from scratch.

You may well win a taste test challenge.
But my recipe would be the one that more people would prefer to follow.

And the fact that you prefer to make your own dough, mash your own tomato puree, whatever else... thats fine, its a perfectly reasonable hobby to have. But it DOES NOT make you better than the 9 out of 10 people who do not cook for pleasure, but who cook to pit a meal on the table for themselves and their family.

Anymore than I am better than you if I know more about football than you.

_

This is my position.

I await to some the comments of the foodies, and why they think it is bad to not really care about food, to simply want to eat something relatively nice and relatively cheap that took relatively little effort to make.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

DrSublime

I'm in agreement your entire argument S.F.

Espically having young children biting at your heels for dinner a quick n easy healthy meal is the way to go .. more so considering both me and the wife work full time

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LordEden

I'm going to respond to this thread in greater detail when I'm not up to my ears in paperwork. I just want to say one thing SF. *NO ONE* yelled at you for making a pita pizza, we argued with you about the fact you considered yourself a chef (which you are not) and the fact you said your pizza was better than every other pizza in the world.

I said in that thread that I didn't care you made pita pizza and that I had made it before. It was quick, easy, and simple and that if you posted the recipe with out your usual bravo and bluster, then it would have been fine. You instead insulted chefs, the general populace of Tilted Food, and then myself. You sprayed your virtual shit all over the thread, which pissed people (mainly myself) off to no end.

NO ONE in tilted food is a elitist or a foodie (I seriously doubt anyone has said, "Yes, I am a foodie"). No one has EVER turned their nose up at someone's recipe the entire time I have been posting in TFood. You seem the be the only elitist here, but heralding the low end instead of the high end. You seem to be the only one that has a problem with Tilted Food, saying how we are snobs and that we don't care about your recipes. When that is completely not true, I said so in a PM yesterday to you (which I'm sure sparked this inane thread). I was ready to post my own crockpot recipes on your thread when you called me (and other Tfood posters) out by saying how we would hate your recipes because they were "simple". You want to pick a fight and I thought saying, "Don't be an ass and people will respond to you" was enough to get you to stop trying to start an arguement.

I guess I was wrong, I'll remember next time not to try and take the tactful route.

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Baraka_Guru

Strange, what you do is symbolically making a working-class hero sandwich and then suggesting that anything more complex or attentive is only something "The Man" does.

Which is where I call bullshit.

I agree with Eden so far as indicating the difference between convenient and simple foods and wanting to make something a bit more complex and otherwise unattainable without some extra time, care, or technique.

Otherwise, you might as well consider a significant proportion of Indian cuisine as elitist because, wow, look at all that time, dedication, and all those crazy spices and other ingredients they use in traditional dishes. And what about other cuisines that have dishes on a similar level of complexity? Those elitists....

Is this because you're British? Fish and chips and stuff right?

"Great British food means unfussy dishes made with quality local ingredients, matched with simple sauces to accentuate flavour, rather than disguise it."

British cuisine: Recipes: Good Food Channel

"Vilified as 'unimaginative and heavy', British cuisine has traditionally been limited in its international recognition to the full breakfast and the Christmas dinner."

Spencer, Colin (2003). British Food: An Extraordinary Thousand Years of History. Columbia University Press.

Do you think this is merely a matter of culture? I'm a Canadian living in one of the most multicultural cities in the world. I'm exposed to virtually every cuisine you can think of. I've tried so much of it that I can't get my head around your position.

It's not elitism; it's history, it's tradition, it's an exploration of the senses.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Strange Famous

British food may not have a good reputation globally, but then again neither does American food. I eat all noodles, pasta, and rice; just the same as I'll eat a nice casserole or a ploughman's lunch. I dont have any kind of issue with eating food traditional to other cultures.

I do like curry, and this is another good example.

You can buy pre-made curry pastes/sauces. I would prefer to use one of those, add a bit of chicken and onion, boil up some rice.

The majority of ordinary people prefer to do that as well (and I can include people who's mum and dad are Indian who I know who just buy the sauce in a jar)

Do you think that using a pre-mixed curry sauce is somehow less authentic, less clever, less worthy? Do you consider men such as myself culinary neanderthals?

Well I say to you again - its cheaper, easier, and unless you are an experienced cook will end up tasting nicer.

I can make myself a nice chicken balti in about 20 minutes using 4 ingredients.

Doing that is better than eating a microwave curry, because it will work out cheaper, you'll have fresh chicken and some fresh onion and less funny additatives that they put in frozen food.

_

Im not ashamed of my class. I work in the petrol industry and have my whole career. I like football, not the theatre. I go to the pub to drink beer rather than a dinner party to trade recipes of puccini mushroom fritters. I wear jeans, not chino's. I'm not ashamed of who I am, and I wont be made ashamed of it by people who think their habits and interests are superior to men like myself.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

mixedmedia

I really don't get the elitism/time association, either. Where I come from in the southern US, I was raised on soul food which originated from the kitchens of former slaves and poor white trash. Yet many of the dishes require quite a bit of preparation and cook all day.

Personally, I like all kinds of foods. Fine, expensive meals including unique and creative combinations of ingredients as well as grilled cheese sandwiches and french fries.

And most people would spend 30 mins to an hour more to prepare something a little more complex and satisfying than a pita pizza if given the chance. And they do. Particularly when they are cooking for a family. Not everyone is a football-watching bachelor, SF.

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Borla

I actually do consider myself a borderline foodie, but not the least bit elitist. I've spent what some would consider a fortune (into the low 4 figures) on a dinner for two with wine at world famous places. I absolutely love going to high-end restaurants where the tab without alcohol can easily be $150+ per person, and double that with wine, and I've done it many times.

Though I don't pride myself on cooking with rare ingredients, or using ultra difficult methods, I do pride myself on having more than a few dishes that I honestly think are consistently good enough that they could be served in almost any high-end restaurant. Amongst our group of friends I have a pretty high reputation, especially when it comes to grilling steaks or smoking almost any type of bbq. I've won local contests several times, and actually have friends come up to me sometimes asking if I'll prepare something specific for them that they've had in the past, or heard that I make.

However (and here's the big catch that zaps your argument), I also completely dig finding a hole in the wall place that makes a great burger, or Italian beef sandwich, or pizza. I will sometimes spend hours before visiting somewhere new just trying to find the spot that is off the beaten path, or mostly only known by locals. It's literally been years since I've eaten a McDonald's burger of any sort, and it's rare for me to eat fast food, or food from a chain restaurant of any type. Not because I have to have the high end stuff mentioned above, but because I want to try something new, something local, or something unique. Some of the best meals I've ever had have cost me $10 because I've been willing to research, or try something new. Some of my favorite meals to prepare at home (burgers, tacos, grilled chicken) are extremely simple, require no ingredients that are difficult to procure, and require very little time. And though I basically refuse to go to chain restaurants and eat mass produced stuff from them, when invited to a friend's house that isn't the best cook, I still go, eat what's there, enjoy myself, and have a good time. I would never critique what they prepare, or compare it to what I've had in the past. I'm there for the good company, and am thankful to have been invited.

I consider myself more of a foodie because I honestly believe that I'm more particular about food, willing to try a much broader variety of food than most people I know, and because I've had the privilege of actually trying a lot of top notch or unique places. I consider it more of a hobby than an elitist trait. And I don't expect others to feel the same way any more than I'd expect everyone to root for my favorite team or watch my favorite TV show.

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Strange Famous

spending 100's on a meal must surely be a bit elitist, because most people couldnt afford to do it?

Is a meal that costs 100$ really 10 times better than a meal that costs 10$?

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Borla

I clearly stated in my post that some of the best meals I've had were for under $10.


But those were usually hidden gems, and few and far between.


I would argue that most people CHOOSE not to do it. Aside from meals while entertaining or traveling for business, we almost never eat out for dinner. Maybe once every 2-3 months. When we do, it's likely to be somewhere that costs $150-250 total for the both of us. Many/most people I know, eat out on Friday or Saturday night, order pizza, or do something of the like. If they spend $15-25 to do that every week, aren't they spending just as much at eating out? Lots of other people I know go to the bar/pub once or twice a week (or more) and spend a $10-20 each time. That adds up. So does smoking, gambling, or a lot of other habits that people choose to have that I choose not to have. I'd prefer to spend it on a handful of really nice dinners each year. If someone else chooses an Olive Garden or Applebee's every week instead of a very nice place 1/10th as often, that's their perogative. I think I just choose differently.

Yes, I do (according to statistics) make more money than most people. But I'm not rich by any stretch. I do have a few expensive habits that I indulge in, but again, I'd argue that it's a tradeoff for lots of other less-expensive habits that I don't indulge in. I also don't think it makes me better than anyone else.

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mixedmedia

and yes, a $100 meal can easily be 10x better than a $10 meal. and a $10 meal can be 10x better than a $100 meal. it totally depends on the meals. and, importantly, the individual who's eating them...taste in food being a characteristic totally dependent on the same factors of experience, culture and personal preference that drive all almost all of our choices and desires.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Borla

Last night was a perfect example of a cheap, awesome meal.

We did grilled margarita pizza and hanger steaks. Homemade dough, home grown basil, fresh mozzarella from a local market, and fresh tomatoes. Hanger steaks from a local butcher. Total cost was probably $10-12 each, but it was awesome. Even if you throw in the bottle of wine we had, the cost was still only $17-19 each.

But it blew away going to some generic chain like Chili's or Applebee's or Olive Garden and spending the same amount. And we didn't have to worry about noisy or obnoxious people, poor service, traffic, waiting for a table, etc. We also ate something far healthier than typical restaurant fare for the same price.

To me that's being about having great food, not about being elite.

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Strange Famous

I dont disagree with that... I also think spening 40 on a nice meal is a better experience than 40 to eat at a fast food joint.

Personally to me £30 or $40 is more than my food budget for the week... but I am not saying you should apologise for having more disposable income than me. You have earned the income you have in the same way that my own actions have given me the income I have. Thats really not what its about.

I want to re-iterate, I have no criticism of someone who wants to take the time to make their own dough for a pizza, or has the time to shop at a local market for fresh and local ingredients.

I just state that I believe if a man criticises me for using a pitta bread instead of pizza dough, that criticism is also invalid.

I just state that more people prefer to eat the way I do than the way you do. I am not saying its superior to eat simply, just that its more popular and it is more popular for a reason - because most people choose to spend their time/resources on other things.

If I share my pizza recipe: obviously its not aimed at you, in the same way as your recipe isnt aimed at me. I just am arguing that quality of end result is not the only criteria to judge what is the best recipe, you also need to take into account simplicity, cost, etc.

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Borla

Total prep time was less than 10-15 minutes, aside from letting the dough rise. By the time the grill was hot enough to use, all of the ingredients were prepped. And I don't see why shopping in a local market takes any longer. If anything you deal with less crowds, don't have to park so far away, and no long checkout lines. Most of the local farmers' markets around here are in parks or parking lots where you can pull right up, walk over to a booth, pick out want you want, pay for it, and walk away.

I think I know what you are getting at, but I think fewer people don't do it because of inexperience, not because it's more difficult. If someone knows what they are doing (which takes some investment of time, and breaking out of the rut of walking down the freezer section of the grocer picking out junk food meals to nuke in the microwave) they can get better food, faster, for cheaper, while supporting local farmers and artisans over corporate food processors. But that's a whole other topic altogether.

I wouldn't criticize you (and haven't even seen/read the other thread referenced here) unless you were trying to brag that it was an accomplishment. If you were bragging because you never cook, and it was a first step, I'd encourage you and try to offer tips or advice how to continue trying new things, or making them better. If you didn't want to hear it, got upset over it, or ignored it, meh, your loss.


I'd argue that most people wouldn't prefer to eat that way, they just do it out of laziness and inexperience. If they really learned how simple and fast good meals could be, I think they'd change. I didn't get to where I am now overnight. Much of my teenage and early adult life was spent eating cheap, easy, often frozen food. The more I tried more natural stuff, experimenting with cooking and grilling, and widening my experience, the more that stuff lost it's appeal to me. I also feel incredibly better physically eating more healthy foods. And on the rare occasion that I do grab something at a fast food place, an hour or two later when I feel lethargic or just kind of 'bleh', I realize why I stopped eating that type of food.

Again, I think it's inexperience. Given the basically the same amount of money and time, and without using any voodoo or crazy techniques, I think healthier more tasty choices are easy. It's just that many people were never taught how, and haven't had the desire to learn. That's personal preference, and absolutely their right. I just feel they are missing out. Think of how you feel about football. How you enjoy watching it, enjoy the strategy and action, enjoy rooting for your club, etc. When you talk to someone who says "Eh, I'm not into sports, I can't sit down for a couple hours and get into a match", don't you think they are missing out on what you enjoy? At least a little? Not that you think less of them, but that you have a joy they don't "get" themselves. That's how I feel about great food, no matter what the cost or prep time.

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Remixer

I love good food very much, but I wouldn't call myself a foodie or a food elitist. I've spent a considerable amount of money on fine dining restaurants over the past few years since I travel a lot and want to experience the best places for food in the world, but at home I don't go beyond pizza, pasta, mashed potatoes, steak, pan-fried chicken breast, pre-packaged sushi, and a bunch of normal veggies.

My spending habits may make me an elitist by general opinion, but I believe elitism to be much more about the attitude than the behaviour.

I sometimes go to McDonald's for a quick bite and usually enjoy it.

Agreed with mixedmedia.

Cheers

monkeysugar

Would you mind defining "elitist" as you see it? (for the purposes of this thread...) The term seems to be a recurring theme with rather negative and/or judgemental connotations. Just because someone can afford to do something that you cannot, or that they choose to enjoy things that you wouldn't choose to enjoy, does not make them elitist. Just because someone has a larger budget than you, does not mean that they think they are better than you.

Is a meal that costs $100 really 10x better...depends on your tastes and where you go. Some people would think so, others would think that those people are elitists for spending that much money on a meal.

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genuinegirly

Recently around here, people have been throwing around the word "Foodie" as if it is a bad word. I would like to hear your clear definition of what this word means. I would like to know why you do not include yourself. Because from what I have seen of you on this board, I have always labeled you as such.

As far as I am concerned, a foodie is: "someone who likes good food and drink"
Good is an intrinsically subjective term. Therefore, in my mind a foodie is anyone who has an opinion on what constitutes good food, and is willing to try different foods to augment their definition. It is inclusive of people who would define all food that they have ever tried is good, and also the people who are significantly more selective of what they consider good.

By my definition, Strange Famous, you are a foodie. You have an opinion on what is good food, and you seek it out. You even take it a step further to come up with your own recipes following the criteria that you find important, like simplicity of ingredients and speedy preparation. The fact that you have taken the time to think about your food choices makes you a foodie.

You may think that a pita pizza is good. I happen to think that pre-packaged pita bread is too dry, bland, and dense to make a decent pizza crust, and would sooner use a tortilla (and have). Different opinions make us different. Not wrong.

Yes, I enjoy making my own breads, pizza dough, rolls, and sandwich bread. I love the long process of kneading and rising, the satisfaction of eating something to which I essentially infused life. It is akin to keeping a garden composed of inexpensive plants that were near death, and cuttings which would have never been self-sufficient without my touch.

I love the process of growing and cooking. My definition of "good" involves a lack of meat and meat industry by-products. It revolves around fresh produce and admittedly slow cooking methods. I enjoy adapting classically challenging recipes into something that I can whip up in 10 minutes using a microwave. I enjoy reading about, looking at, and eating good food.

I am a foodie. Borla is a foodie. You are a foodie. Everyone who has written in this thread is a foodie - because, guess what, they cared enough about the topic to share their opinion. You need to admit you are a foodie, and rather than bashing yourself and everyone like you, try to relate to them and see how you fit in with the ever-increasing world of people who give a crap about the food they put into their body.

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Baraka_Guru

I agree with you genuinegirly. I see a foodie as someone who loves food generally. More specifically, this may mean they like good variety and good quality.

To use a sports parallel, it's like calling someone a sports fan. A foodie is a food fan, not a hooligan.

I'm a foodie.

I'd also like to point out the difference between elitism and elite. Elitism is a idea of an elite controlling or governing a group or society. Elite is merely a status considered among the best of a group.

For example, that tiny pizza place that uses canned sauce and canned mushrooms, etc., isn't going to make the same kind of pizza as that five-star Italian place down the street. It's not necessarily that they can't; it's that they aren't really aiming for that. They're not aiming to make the best pizza. They're aiming for other things, like high-volume sales, low prices, free delivery, etc. That Italian place hires trained chefs who might have attended school and most likely have a ton of experience working with fresh and high-quality ingredients.

Both pizza probably taste good, but if I had my choice, I'd probably pay more for the Italian place. The pizza there is likely going to taste better, and it will have different texture, etc., because of the fresh ingredients.

This thread will, I think, benefit from clarifying what it meant by the language used here.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Slims

First, I have not followed any previous culinary arguments on this board.

Second, I agree, more or less with your above argument. We even have 'Pizza night' here, but we take cooked Afghan bread, throw a bunch of toppings on it and bake it for a few minutes. Quite tasty.


Sometimes, it is. If it gives much greater satisfaction and you have the money to spare there is no reason to deny yourself such meals.

You can live nutritious and healthy off a few dollars a day... cabbage, beans, etc. Most people typically choose to eat food that is considerably more expensive than what is necessary. It seems hypocritical to criticize someone who enjoys the occasional culinary extravagance.

I have been living off goat, rice and Army chow-hall food for some time now. When I come home for leave I plan to eat at the nicest, most expensive restaurants I can find, and I don't see how anyone could criticize my doing so or call it elitist.

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Cynthetiq

I too find some of the best food in some of the cheapest places. I'm talking $3 for a full meal and still have food leftover for tomorrow. The thing is that sometimes an expensive meal is better than the cheapest meals I have, and sometimes it isn't.

I'm at the Fancy Food Show right now and I can't tell you the kinds of food that I'm sampling. When you put a $5 olive oil next to a $100 bottle you can see and taste the difference. Whether that $95 difference is something that you'll pay for is a different story. I sure as hell won't.

I don't think there's anything elitism about it. It is simple math that if I have 1 meal at $100 versus 10 $10 ones, I'm going to find a balance that makes sense to me.

The other day I went to an expensive hotel and the eggs with bacon and toast was $23. It didn't taste any better because they said the eggs were free range fresh eggs.

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monkeysugar

Bueller...Bueller...Bueller...

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Strange Famous

To answer the question of how I define elitist, in this context I define it by

1 - Somebody who thinks they are better than someone else on the basis of their hobby
2 - Somebody who wants to show off their knowledge in a certain area to belittle someone else
3 - Somebody who looks down on people who are less knowledgable/skilled than them.
4 - Somebody who does things/buys things ONLY because they are obscure (ie - someone who eats an expensive home made bread rather than a cheap one from a bakery NOT because they like it better, but because they think its fashionable/trendy/etc)

__________________
"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

monkeysugar

Ah. In that case, where is this rampant elitism occurring? To me it doesn't seem that any of that has really happened, with the possible exception of #3, in which case it really didn't seem to manifest itself until provoked to the 'nth degree.

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I've got the love of my life and a job that I enjoy most of the time. Life is good.