The Paleo Diet - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

genuinegirly · 01-11-2010, 09:25 AM

Do you like eating huge slabs of raw meat? How about a workout that involves tossing rocks barefoot in the frigid outdoors? Do you enjoy fasting for days at a time? This may be the diet for you. Here's a description from a New York Times article: - LINK-

Some questions to get people talking:
Would you be willing to try the Caveman diet? Why or why not?
How do your eating habits differ from those addressed here?
Do you feel that their claims of increased vitality are valid?
Have you incorporated fasting into your current diet plan? If so, do you feel it is beneficial?
What is the longest you have voluntarily fasted, and what kind of a meal did you eat to conclude the fast?

Quote:

The New Age Cavemen and the City
By JOSEPH GOLDSTEIN
...

The caveman lifestyle, in Mr. Durant’s interpretation, involves eating large quantities of meat and then fasting between meals to approximate the lean times that his distant ancestors faced between hunts. Vegetables and fruit are fine, but he avoids foods like bread that were unavailable before the invention of agriculture. Mr. Durant believes the human body evolved for a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, and his goal is to wean himself off what he sees as many millenniums of bad habits.

These urban cavemen also choose exercise routines focused on sprinting and jumping, to replicate how a prehistoric person might have fled from a mastodon.

In a city crowded with vegetarian restaurants and yoga studios, the cavemen defy other people’s ideas of healthy living. There is an indisputable macho component to the lifestyle.

“I didn’t want to do some faddish diet that my sister would do,” Mr. Durant said. ...

Experts in early humans dispute some of the tenets of latter-day paleos, including the belief that fasting is beneficial and that the body is unequipped to handle an agriculture-based diet.

Still, there is a “sharp contrast” between the strength and fitness of our distant ancestors and us, said Clark Larsen, a physical anthropologist at Ohio State University. “The male or female of 12,000 to 15,000 years ago will be considerably stronger and in better shape,” he said. Unfortunately, life was short: If you made it to age 30 or so, you had done well.

But the surprising consensus of the paleos is that the city is a paradise.

“New York is the only city in America where you can walk,” said Nassim Taleb, an investor who gained a measure of celebrity for his theories, described in “The Black Swan,” that extreme events can roil financial markets. “People treat walking like exercise,” he said, “but walking is how humans become humans.”...

Instead of eating three square meals a day, many of New York’s cavemen fast intermittently, up to 36 hours at a stretch. ...

Another caveman trick involves donating blood frequently. The idea is that various hardships might have occasionally left ancient humans a pint short. Asked when he last gave blood, Andrew Sanocki said it had been three months. He and his brother looked at each other. “We’re due,” Andrew said.

Most of the cavemen at Mr. Durant’s gatherings are lean and well-muscled, and have glowing skin. A few wear trim beards. Some claim that they no longer get sick. Several identify themselves as libertarians.

They regularly grumble about vegans, whom they regard as a misguided, rival tribe. But much of the conversation is spent parsing the law of the jungle. The most severe interpretations generally come from Vladimir Averbukh, a jaunty red-headed Web manager for the city who was born in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. ...

Mr. Averbukh is a pre-Promethean sort of caveman. Much of his nourishment comes from grass-fed ground beef, which he eats raw. In a bow to the times, he sometimes uses a fork.

The other cavemen in New York find Mr. Averbukh’s preference for raw beef a little strange.

“I draw the line at sushi,” Andrew Sanocki said. “Paleo man had fire, didn’t he?”

Beyond Mr. Durant’s tribe, it is likely that other New Yorkers are practicing a milder, diet-focused version of the lifestyle. An Upper East Side physician, Grant Macaulay, said he has recommended the diet to hundreds of his patients, and sends them to Barnes & Noble to buy a copy of Mr. Cordain’s “Paleo Diet.”

But these computer-savvy cavemen are not interested in living off the grid, like others who share their ambivalence toward the indoor life. And their eating and exercise habits aside, the cavemen say they have no nostalgia for the prehistoric world.

Mr. Averbukh, who drives around town in a red Smart Car, said the thought of “throwing yourself in the forest with a stick and seeing how long you survive” held no appeal.

The cavemen are happy in the modern world, they say, but simply want to regain the fortitude that they attribute to their ancient ancestors.

“The problem is that as soon as we get out of our temperature-controlled environments, we’re weak,” Mr. Durant said. “Where’s that wildness that allowed humans to flourish throughout history?”

With this view of humanity’s past, what does Mr. Durant see in his future? One idea is a restaurant called B.C. or Wild.

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My response:

Would you be willing to try the Caveman diet? Why or why not?
No. The very idea is repulsive. I'm not fond of the taste of meat. Fear of pathogens are enough reason to keep me away from raw meat. Besides, didn't they have fire?

How do your eating habits differ from those addressed here?
I am a lacto-ovo vegetarian. I like the concept of living off the grid and being able to prepare all of my own food from scratch - I can raise chickens, I can raise plants. I can't kill. I enjoy eating plants, I take far more pleasure in preparing plant-based meals.

Do you feel that their claims of increased vitality are valid?
Anyone who takes an account of their daily caloric intake and attempts to reach peak fitness could experience similar vitality.

Have you incorporated fasting into your current diet plan? If so, do you feel it is beneficial?
My current diet does not have room for regular fasting. I have incorporated fasting into my diet in the past, while I was still eating meat, I found it was a good way to clear my system, always felt like a fresh start. Usually just 24-hour fasting. On a veggie diet, I don't feel the same urge to fast.

Martian · 01-11-2010, 09:55 AM

I wouldn't do this, because it's stupid.

Modern life is what it is. We have access to more information than ever before about how the body processes, stores and uses the food we eat. We know in a general sense what sorts of foods will help us in the long run, and what sorts will do us harm.

It is true that many modern health problems arise from a combination of improper diet and lack of exercise. The solution, however, isn't to eat like a cave man. Shockingly enough, it's to eat right and exercise.

Constant fasting is going to throw your metabolism out of whack, and lead to weight fluctuation. Too much reliance on red meat for energy leads to an imbalance, with way too much protein and saturated fat, and not nearly enough carbohydrates or dietary fibre. These guys may sneer at the vegans now, but they'll not be doing so in twenty years when this stuff catches up to them.

My limited experience with vegans leads me to believe that many of them are hyper-aware of what they eat and how it impacts their bodies. You'd have to be, to function on a diet with no animal protein whatsoever.

Throwing out 5000 years of dietary science for some misguided ideal strikes me as unbelievably foolhardy.

ShaniFaye · 01-11-2010, 10:00 AM

A diabetic on a paleo diet = a dead diabetic

Willravel · 01-11-2010, 10:19 AM

You're not tracking down a mastodon for 20 miles with a few of your friends, only to catch up with it and kill it with spears, all in one day. You're getting low-quality meat and cramming way too much of it in your face. High protein/low-carb diets really miss the point to health. Also, humans seem to have adapted quickly (quickly from an evolutionary perspective) to a diet that includes grains. I digest whole wheat just fine, and I get plenty of nutrients from that foodstuff.

As Martian said, eat right and exercise. This means fruits, veggies, lean meats, whole grains, all balanced along with at least 30 minutes a day of exercise. That's the whole ballgame.

robot_parade · 01-12-2010, 09:51 PM

It's completely silliness, based upon some cocked-up ideas about 'how paleolithic man ate' plus the (wrong) idea that people were healthier 10k years ago than they are now.

MSD · 01-18-2010, 04:50 PM

Appeal to antiquity is a logical fallacy for a reason. Cavemen didn't have nearly the life expectancy that we did, either.

Baraka_Guru · 01-18-2010, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

Appeal to antiquity is a logical fallacy for a reason. Cavemen didn't have nearly the life expectancy that we did, either.

I simply have a problem with throwing out decades, if not centuries, of knowledge and paths of knowledge.

MSD · 01-19-2010, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I simply have a problem with throwing out decades, if not centuries, of knowledge and paths of knowledge.

I think you're agreeing with me on this, and I also see no benefit to discarding everything modern science and medicine have done to improve our quality and duration of life for the sake of being like our ancestors who, in many cases, just barely survived.

Baraka_Guru · 01-19-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

I think you're agreeing with me on this [...]

Yes.

Willravel · 01-19-2010, 07:23 PM

Hold on a second. I'm reading the Paleo diet, and in theory someone on this diet would not have the same life expectancy as a human living over 10,000 years ago. I don't eat a lot of grains simply because I prefer a diet heavy in veggies and my life expectancy is in the 80s. People on the Paleolithic diet can still utilize everything from safe, public drinking water to antibiotics, which dramatically increase health and increase the likelihood of living a long life.

Let's review. The Paleolithic diet promotes eating fresh fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds, and lean meats and suggests against grains and processed foods. That's perfectly reasonable and completely healthy based on our understanding of modern health. The only real questionable thing I saw skimming the article was the fasting, which seems quite stupid simply because hunter-gatherers were (according to my reading of archeology) perfectly capable of rationing food in order to regularly eat. If you throw out the fasting, the diet really isn't harmful at all.

I'm not going to do it, and I can't see myself recommending it, but let's not indulge in hyperbole.

Baraka_Guru · 01-19-2010, 07:39 PM

One issue I have specifically is the desire to remove grains and legumes almost entirely from the diet. It overlooks the role that these foodstuffs played in our survival: food security, replacement of animal protein during shortages, the establishment of stable and secure societies.

It seems to me that there are those who support this diet who view grains and legumes as an inherently bad food choice. This despite the evidence that they play important roles in nutrition and have many health benefits.

Willravel · 01-19-2010, 09:19 PM

But I won't die at 55 simply because I don't eat grains and legumes. My current diet is mostly veggies, fruits, nuts, and meat. I do have some grains, but not a lot, certainly not the amount in the food pyramid. All the nutrition one needs can be attained from non-grains and legumes.

highthief · 01-20-2010, 04:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Let's review. The Paleolithic diet promotes eating fresh fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds, and lean meats and suggests against grains and processed foods. That's perfectly reasonable and completely healthy based on our understanding of modern health. The only real questionable thing I saw skimming the article was the fasting, which seems quite stupid simply because hunter-gatherers were (according to my reading of archeology) perfectly capable of rationing food in order to regularly eat. If you throw out the fasting, the diet really isn't harmful at all.

I am impressed by the overreactions to the media spin on the diet and the actions of some extremists.

You are right Will - the diet is in fact very healthy. It says eat whole foods, not processed. Eat the food we evolved with over millions of years - meat, nuts, veggies and fruit.

As to the fasting, there is nothing wrong with a little fasting. I don't do it myself, but about a billion Muslims around the world do it regularly and they don't seem any the worse for it. Going to extremes is a little out there, IMO, but fasting for 12 or 24 hours is not going to hurt anyone.

01-11-2010, 09:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	I wouldn't do this, because it's stupid. Modern life is what it is. We have access to more information than ever before about how the body processes, stores and uses the food we eat. We know in a general sense what sorts of foods will help us in the long run, and what sorts will do us harm. It is true that many modern health problems arise from a combination of improper diet and lack of exercise. The solution, however, isn't to eat like a cave man. Shockingly enough, it's to eat right and exercise. Constant fasting is going to throw your metabolism out of whack, and lead to weight fluctuation. Too much reliance on red meat for energy leads to an imbalance, with way too much protein and saturated fat, and not nearly enough carbohydrates or dietary fibre. These guys may sneer at the vegans now, but they'll not be doing so in twenty years when this stuff catches up to them. My limited experience with vegans leads me to believe that many of them are hyper-aware of what they eat and how it impacts their bodies. You'd have to be, to function on a diet with no animal protein whatsoever. Throwing out 5000 years of dietary science for some misguided ideal strikes me as unbelievably foolhardy. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

01-11-2010, 10:00 AM	#3 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	A diabetic on a paleo diet = a dead diabetic __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

01-19-2010, 07:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	One issue I have specifically is the desire to remove grains and legumes almost entirely from the diet. It overlooks the role that these foodstuffs played in our survival: food security, replacement of animal protein during shortages, the establishment of stable and secure societies. It seems to me that there are those who support this diet who view grains and legumes as an inherently bad food choice. This despite the evidence that they play important roles in nutrition and have many health benefits. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 01-20-2010 at 04:30 AM..

01-11-2010, 10:19 AM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You're not tracking down a mastodon for 20 miles with a few of your friends, only to catch up with it and kill it with spears, all in one day. You're getting low-quality meat and cramming way too much of it in your face. High protein/low-carb diets really miss the point to health. Also, humans seem to have adapted quickly (quickly from an evolutionary perspective) to a diet that includes grains. I digest whole wheat just fine, and I get plenty of nutrients from that foodstuff. As Martian said, eat right and exercise. This means fruits, veggies, lean meats, whole grains, all balanced along with at least 30 minutes a day of exercise. That's the whole ballgame.

01-12-2010, 09:51 PM	#5 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	It's completely silliness, based upon some cocked-up ideas about 'how paleolithic man ate' plus the (wrong) idea that people were healthier 10k years ago than they are now.

01-18-2010, 04:50 PM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Appeal to antiquity is a logical fallacy for a reason. Cavemen didn't have nearly the life expectancy that we did, either.

01-19-2010, 07:23 PM	#10 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Hold on a second. I'm reading the Paleo diet, and in theory someone on this diet would not have the same life expectancy as a human living over 10,000 years ago. I don't eat a lot of grains simply because I prefer a diet heavy in veggies and my life expectancy is in the 80s. People on the Paleolithic diet can still utilize everything from safe, public drinking water to antibiotics, which dramatically increase health and increase the likelihood of living a long life. Let's review. The Paleolithic diet promotes eating fresh fruits and veggies, nuts and seeds, and lean meats and suggests against grains and processed foods. That's perfectly reasonable and completely healthy based on our understanding of modern health. The only real questionable thing I saw skimming the article was the fasting, which seems quite stupid simply because hunter-gatherers were (according to my reading of archeology) perfectly capable of rationing food in order to regularly eat. If you throw out the fasting, the diet really isn't harmful at all. I'm not going to do it, and I can't see myself recommending it, but let's not indulge in hyperbole.

01-19-2010, 09:19 PM	#12 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	But I won't die at 55 simply because I don't eat grains and legumes. My current diet is mostly veggies, fruits, nuts, and meat. I do have some grains, but not a lot, certainly not the amount in the food pyramid. All the nutrition one needs can be attained from non-grains and legumes.