Strange Famous

Spoiler: Ok, well, the thing I didnt really understand is, why did Dumbledore sacrifice himself to save Draco?

I'm pretty sure the Half Blood Prince is still on the side of good - it just wouldnt fit if it was just a case of Dumbledore was wrong about him, plus even at the end Snape spared Harry, protected him from the other DE's and gave him advice about how to keep Tom Riddle out of his mind. I think when Hagrid overheard Snape and Dumbledore arguing that was when Dumbledore told Snape to kill him if it came to it...and as Dumbledore already knew about Draco's plot to kill him, and in fact two students were almost killed, he must have had a pretty serious reason not to have stopped Draco and expelled him a long time before.

So... if Dumbledore put Ron and Katie at risk, and sacrificed his own life to protect Draco, what was it for?

The only thing I could think of was maybe the Malfoy's have one of the Horcrux's... but that wouldnt really make a lot of sense...the only other idea I had is that Harry himself is the last Horcrux, and that Draco is destined to kill him.

It would kind of sense, as Tom Riddle was supposed to create his Horcrux's as celebrations of great or special murders - and James Potter would have been a special murder. Plus Harry took on some of Tom's powers (talking to snake's, and they have the same wand, etc...) when Tom's AK failed to kill Harry... so maybe he placed the last portion of his soul into Harry then, which is why they have this affinity.. and that Tom can't die until Harry does, or something inside him does, and somehow Draco is crucial in the whole process.

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Redlemon

Before it gets out of hand... since you have the word Spoilers in the thread title, don't use them in the text of your message. Could you edit them out?

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Strange Famous

I just wanted to make sure that no one who didnt want to read it read's it. if a moderator asks me to then I will, but otherwise, I would prefer to leave them. Someone spoiled Book 6 for me and I know how frustrating it can be,

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"Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate,
for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
without being uncovered."

The Gospel of Thomas

Slavakion

Yeah, me too. I saw the YTMND

Yakk

Spoiler: How did DD know about Draco's plot?

Via Snape.

If DD acted on Snape's information, then it could cause Snape's cover to be blown.

Snape killing DD means that Voldemort has no reason to suspect Snape. Snape has done his Dark Lord's bidding and apparently betrayed and killed Voldemort's greatest opponent.

Voldemort doesn't understand that death is not the worst thing, and that DD would actually plan his own death in order to defeat him.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

fresnelly

<b>SPOILER SPACE</B> - Sorry I don't know how to do Invisio-text
















<B>CRITICAL SPOILERS BELOW!!!</B>
I agree that Malfoy's role will be crucial in the next book. I think that his redemption will figure heavily in the plot, and that had he actually killed Dumbledore, any hope of this would have been lost.

So I suspect that, having not killed Dumbledore, Draco Skywalker will be forced to show his commitment to the dark side at some point by either saving Harry's life or not.

I like the theory that Harry himself contains the last Horcrux. Something to do with that scar perhaps?

This begs the question of how he will destroy it without killing himself. Who's to say that he can? There would be a fine symetry to Harry sacrificing himself in the name of love, just like his parents did before. DD said many times that love is his most powerful magic and there are plenty of characters whom he could throw himself down for. Ron and Hermiony? Ginny? Perhaps having to forgive Snape (who's definately innocent imho) or Draco will play a part here.

Furthermore, I can't quite imagine what Harry will "do" after the series is over should he live. Ministry job? Nope. Teacher? Too young. Open his own business in Hogsmeade? Perhaps it's better to off 'him
<b>SPOILER SPACE</b>










end spoilers

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Yakk

Fres, the command looks like:
{spoiler}spoiler text{/spoiler}

but you use [square brackets] instead of {squigly brackets}.

An easy way to tell how to write what someone else did is to click on the "quote" button, then look at the text you quoted (but don't actually respond to the post).

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

spindles

to add to fresnelly's comments - jk rowling has been publicly asked - what does harry do after the series?, to which she replied "what makes you think harry survives?" or some such.

Also, I hardly think commenting/speculating on an unwritten book requires spoiler tags

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spongy

I for one think it was Snape not Draco being protected.

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skier

I'd like to throw out here that for ava kevadra to work, you need to really feel hatred and the want to kill the person... right?

So if snape didn't mean it, maybe it was just a fancy light show so that dumbledore could do some important stuff for the order of the pheonix.

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Poppinjay

Okay, take this for what it's worth, supposedly Harry can't Spoiler: be a horcrux, because he would have to kill Harry to retrieve it, and once Harry is dead, it would be gone forever. Only objects can be horcruxes. Dumbledore explained this to Harry. . And you Spoiler: don't need to feel hatred to kill somebody with avada kedavera, your "karate" just has to be stronger than theirs. At any rate, Dumbledore showed up in his portrait, so he's dead.

The thing I've never gotten, portraits talk. The portraits that hang in Dumbledore's office all offer advice, unsolicited or not. They show emotion. So, why haven't Harry's parent's ever talked to him? Other pictures do.

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Yakk

Could you be more explicit? I don't recall that explaination in the books. Where in the book was this said?

That could be faked. Did you notice that Spoiler: DD's portrait was pretty, how do you say, passive?

Some portraits talk, others do not. How they differ is not something that has been made clear -- it would be pretty easy for JK to come up with a mumbo-jumbo explaination (different techniques for intelligent portraits as opposed to simple animated ones).

I know of 4 seemingly distinct kinds of portraits.
1> Intelligent ones of people who we knew once existed, and are dead. The annoying loud one, or the ones in DD's office.
2> Ones of possibly non-existant people -- the artwork on the walls in Hogwarts? These could all be category <1>.
3> Relatively passive ones. Used on trading cards, and seemingly more common.
4> Possibly another category of 'utility' portraits -- the Spoiler: one in the prime minister's office. These could also be type <1>.

Type <3> portraits have, in my memory, all been small in size, and usually photographs. Maybe there is the difference: magic paintings vs magic photographs?

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Poppinjay

Yakk, I'm reading through book 6 again to refresh my memory of the horcrux. I haven't found it yet, but I recall DD dismissing the idea of a human horcrux. Once a horcrux is destroyed, it is useless.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

shakran

If Harry were the horcrux, why would Voldemort express confusion in previous books as to why Harry hadn't died? If he were making Harry into the horcrux, he certainly wouldn't have been trying to kill Harry in the first place.

Yakk

The theory is that Spoiler: Harry is an accidental horocrux. The killing of Harry's mother was the murder that made him a horocrux. Possibly Harry's mother knew how to make a horocrux, and sacraficed herself on purpose to make Harry Voldemort's horocrux, knowing that Voldemort would try to kill Harry and fail. Casting a death spell at a fragment of your own soul may be dangerous to your health...

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

fresnelly

I think that theory goes a bit far. Spoiler: Harry's mother likely didn't know about horcruxes, and it would require an awful lot of strategic foresight on her part. If he's is the horcrux, I bet it's by accident.

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Yakk

*Laugh*, good point fresnelly.

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

shakran

Also, Dumbledore is obviously capable of recognizing horocruxes. Else he wouldn't have been SURE that the ring was one. He's had Harry under his nose for years now. Surely if Harry were a horocrux Dumbledore would have known about it by now and would not have talked about the powerful magic of the love of his mother that saved him.

Love does not seem to be an ingredient in horocrux cookery

skier

what if it were an ingredient in horcrux cookery? It would make sense- every time voldemort divided his soul, it took away more and more of his ability to love

Or it's like blackmage's hadoken blast that is powered by love

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chelsea_9

i have a theory that Spoiler: dumbledore made snape kill him, hence the complete lack of pleading for his own life. i think that snape is truly working the death eaters, and he killed dumbledore as a way to prove his utmost "loyalty" to voldemort. when in fact, he is still an informant for the otherside, and perhaps an aid for harry when the inevitable and possibly fatal battle against voldemort comes into play. it's just absolutely absurd that dumbledore would be completely wrong about snape. especially now that he's dead, something like that would ruin the way people remember dumbledore. i honestly don't think that snape is on the death eaters side.

also, i've always wondered this about the horcruxes: Spoiler: i was always under the idea that the horcrux was a part of ones soul... and by destroying it would weaken the human that embodies the remaining soul. if thats the case, in theory... harry wouldnt have to destroy all of the horcruxes [since it's quite possible he may be one himself. seeing as though its mentioned often that voldemort may have left some of himself "in" harry the night he survived avadra kedavra] to destroy voldemort. and if he his the final horcrux, he could only have to destroy the remaining ones, which appear to be mainly objects, to destroy voldemort... and then protect himself from followers of the dark lord to prevent him from ever coming back.

i may be way out on left wing there.
but overall, i woudlnt be surprised if everyone was wrong and the lovely mrs. rowling surprised the heck out of us all.

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spongy

Sorry to thread jack, but I read that she will start writing book 7 next year. yay!!!

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Stephen King

ChistledStone

Actually, I just had an idea. JK Rowling has changed the books. She's made them darker. I wouldn't be suprised if we found out Harry is the final horcrux and the reason that no-one has killed him is because Voldemort has been protecting himself, by protecting Harry.

We get to climax of seventh book

"You haven't killed me before, what makes you think you can do it now?"

"Because I wasn't trying you selfish little biatch" *slaps him down, takes the horcrux out*.

"Take this Moldy Voldy" *Stab in enchanted shin*

---

Or if he is the last horcrux, he destroys every other one, and then traps the weakened voldemort inside some magical object.

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Zeraph

As far as I know, a horecruxe is a portion of your soul tied to an object, your soul is not actually in the object. V still has his soul, he's just anchored it to objects in the world so that his soul doesn't move on when he dies. In the end I have a feeling harry won't actually kill V, he'll trap him in some way with the last horecrux.

And I think I've said this in another thread, but I don't think Harry can be a horecrux, it specifically says that living things can't be, nor would most of the books make any sense if he was...

aberkok

I think Harry is a horcrux. Spoiler: On the spine of the Half-Blood Prince (at least the North-American edition, you know the green and purple one?) the ring horcrux is pictured near the top, and on its surface, although it could just be a reflection, there is what appears to be a lightning bolt. Possibly an allusion to Harry's lightning bolt? I know it's a stretch, because it would count on Voldemort having to have known he wasn't going to kill Harry as a baby, when everything we've been led to believe points to him wanting Harry dead. Perhaps he was trying to make a horcrux out of an artefact in Godric's Hollow and accidentally made Harry one? That's kind of a dumb theory. At any rate, some would say that a living thing can't be a horcrux, but then what about Dumbledore's suggestion that Nagini is one?

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Atropos4

I don't think Harry would be one. If Voldemort knew he wouldn't be trying to kill Harry every chance he gets. I'm not entirely sure but I don't think a horecrux can be made by accident. When Dumbledore mentioned Nagini being one it struck me as odd and the scene felt ...funny hmm...I think he was mistaken.

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chelsea_9

thats a picture of the ring once it was broken. remember when harry saw dumbledore with it, the book said there was a crack in it?

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Martian

Here I go revealing my true colours as an HP fan. My take on the whole thing goes like this :

Spoiler: First off, Harry is not a horcrux. This is evidenced by the fact that Voldemort clearly does want him dead and in the first book explicitly instructed Quirrel to kill him. Voldemort has been somewhat callous with one of his other horcruxes, but even that one he did not explicitly want destroyed (referring here to the journal).

It's my understanding that he did split his soul in order to create the different horcruxes, which is why they all need to be destroyed, else he will not be able to be killed. Now, onto the main point of the thread. My reading was as follows :

Throughout the series Dumbledore always put the welfare of the students first. Combine that with his established habit of looking for the good in just about everyone and it becomes apparent why he would sacrifice himself to save Draco; he was looking to redeem the boy. He knew that Draco wouldn't kill him, so he knew that Draco hadn't gone completely bad. But something had to happen on that tower, else the death eaters would've known that Draco wasn't completely loyal to them. This is where Snape comes in; he's not in the employ of the Death Eaters I don't think; rather, he still works for Dumbledore in his own way. However, he's been proven to be a very complex character and has generally seemed to be the sort to believe that the ends justify the means. He killed Dumbledore because Dumbledore had to die at that point, in order for Draco to live. It also allowed him to maintain his cover as a double agent. I can't imagine any of the Death Eaters would question his loyalty after that.

I think he made the unbreakable vow to Narcissa in anticipation of having to do this. He knew what Voldemort would do to Draco if he failed tokill Dumbledore and he knew that Draco ultimately would. He also knew that Dumbledore would rather die than see Draco killed. So he stepped in and took the necessary action. I reckon his argument with Dumbledore was either unrelated (a red herring) or more probably Snape expressing misgivings. I suspect Snape may have reconsidered, believing that the order would've been much worse off without Dumbledore, to the point where he'd sacrifice both his own life and Draco's in order to keep Dumbledore at the head of the Order. The downfall of Voldemort is the main objective and there's likely very little that Snape wouldn't sacrifice to further that goal.

Then again, Snape hs been portrayed as quite inscrutable; I suppose it's possible that he really was working for Voldemort all along. My issue with this is that it reduces him to a very one-sided character. I suspect that evidence will come to light that is much more compelling than his revealing the plot on Lily and James which will ultimately prove that he was in Dumbledore's employ all along. After all, it's been a while since I read the book but I don't believe that Dumbledore ever actually stated that this was his sole reason for trusting Snape; it was simply assumed.

I would look for Snape to play a signifigant role in the seventh book, along with Draco and Wormtail. I suspect the end result will be that Voldemort will have several individuals in his employ who, willing or not, will assist Harry in his downfall. A good example may be the destruction of Nagini, who we're lead to believe is one of Voldemort's horcruxes.

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I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

fresnelly

Who was Nagini again?

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shakran

I think we can stop with the spoiler tags - the thread is titled spoilers, and by now if you haven't read the book (twice) you're probably not going to.

The whole book series has been based around the idea that Harry must kill Voldemort, or vice versa. Actually if you strip the book down to its bare plot, we're dealing with Star Wars here. Luke has to kill vader, but Obi Wan is a much more powerful jedi, so it wouldn't make sense for Luke to kill Vader unless you get Obi Wan out of the way.

Same thing with this book. Dumbledore is far more powerful than Harry, and he doesn't want his students in danger. Logically Dumbledore would be the one to go after Voldemort. So if Harry is the one that has to do it, we have to get Dumbledore out of the way.

That tells me he's really dead.

I think Snape is, while perhaps conflicted about it, working for Voldemort. To use a bad chess analogy, you don't kill the red queen in order to save the black pawn. If snape were on the good side, he wouldn't want to lose their most powerful wizard just to save Draco. Not only does Draco have unfortunate dark leanings, but he's also not that great of a wizard. Dumbledore seems to be a huge strategic sacrifice just to save someone that, by all appearances anyway, can't help in the fight against Voldemort.

Poppinjay

Nagini is Voldemort's snake, from the sanskrit word for snake, "naga".

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

Poppinjay

I've mentioned that to my wife, how closely the story mimics Star Wars. However, Luke didn't kill Vader, he essentially committed suicide by throwing Palpatine over the rail.

Snape all but gave away the farm as he left with the death eaters, telling Potter he needs to improve his occlumency, parrying his curses with blocks, instead of fighting back. And then there was the whole scene in the bathroom where Potter basically ripped Draco's face open, and Snape responded by making him re-sort index cards?

I think ultimately, Snapes dislike of Potter stems from his desire for Lily, Harry's mother. He's disgusted that this cocky little brat is James's son, instead of his own.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

shakran

That's true, but the big conflict was the battle between Luke and Vader, which couldn't have happened if Obi Wan were still around.



It'd make sense if they were under orders from Voldemort at this point - - -Harry's pissed me off too much, I wanna kill him myself.



Her plot twists so far (Moody comes to mind) have been pretty predictable. I'd be surprised if there was that big of a Snape plot twist.

rofgilead

I would also be suprised if Snape was actually evil - it would greatly make his character just a flat-evil boring one.

I'm thinking it must be part of a greater plot where new evidence will show that Snape and Dumbledore had planned the whole thing (perhaps Dumbledore isn't dead.. etc)...

fresnelly

If we're going to use Star Wars as a metaphor, then surely Snape is Harry's REAL father.

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Martian

The metaphor predates Star Wars; it's a classical hero's journey. the mentor has to die in order for the hero to continue on and achieve the ultimate victory alone.

That works for the chess analogy, which is likely how Snape would perceive the whole conflict. Dumbledore's mind works differently, however; Dumbledore would be far more likely to conclude that if he could sacrifice his life to save that of a student, that he should do so. Dumbledore was 150 years old when he died, Draco was 16. Dumbledore's the sort of man to figure that he's had his time, while Draco still has his life to lead and his choices to make. This would inevitably lead to conflict between Snape and Dumbledore, since Snape disagrees. However, Snape's loyalty to Dumbledore seems in prior books to be unwavering, meaning that ultimately he would be likely to carry out Dumbledore's wishes even if he disagrees with them.

I think the escape is very telling. Why settle for eliminating one of the order's key figureheads when you could eliminate two? There's no denying that Snape hates Harry and that he most definitely has the power to kill him. He is an occlumens and legilimens outclassed possibly by only Voldemort himself, now that Dumbledore is no longer in the picture. He's also shown an aptitude for charms and curses in HBP beyond what I ever would've imagined. He could've bested Harry and killed him easily in that duel, so why didn't he? Further still, why did he say the things he did? He was clearly very much upset at the time, but Snape's not the type to let his emotions get the better of him to that extent. I'd say it's more in character that he would obliquely try to help Harry by telling him what he'll need if he's going to be able to ultimately defeat Voldemort (think of Snape at the end of Order of the Phoenix, when he outwardly seemed to be supporting Umbridge but contacted the Order to relay Harry's message at the earliest opportunity).

Snape is not a nice guy, make no mistake about that. He's callous, he's downright mean and he seems to have few redeeming qualities. He's definitely not the sort of guy I'd want to go out for beers with, but I certainly don't think he's evil.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Yakk

Spoiler: a> Snape killed Dumbledore because Snape is more important than Dumbledore. By killing DD, Snape has proven himself beyond any doubt to Voldy. Snape, opposed to Voldy[1], can now get information on where the horocrux's are.

b> Harry needs to learn occumancy because until he can block Voldy out of his mind, nobody can tell him Snape is on the good guys side. Snape hates Harry[2], but is still a good guy.

c> DD is dead. Really.

d> Harry should be the final Horocrux for a number of reasons. First, it explains alot of the events of the books better than the half-assed explainations in the books (try to use a death curse on your own soul container, and things go wonkey). Second, Voldy killed Lily and James and was killing Harry when Lily's "love magic" screwed him up. Odds are he wouldn't waste a personal killing without making yet another horocrux -- I suspect the screw up caused a piece of Voldy's soul to get hooked on Harry. Third, it provides a dark and tragic ending of self-sacrafice, and absolves her of writing more Harry Potter stories.

Footnote:
[1] Spoiler: Snape loved Lily. Voldy killed Lily. Snape will kill Voldy for this act.

[2] Spoiler: Harry has the eyes of his true love (Lily) staring out from the face of his bitter foe (James). How could Snape not hate Harry?

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Poppinjay

I’m glad this came up again, and I’m not going to use spoil text, because at this point, people should darn well have read it.

My wife and I played the Harry Potter version of SceneIt last night, so I was in the mood to read parts of 6 again.

We know who the HPB is, and we know he wrote the spells. Harry makes a euphoria potion for Slughorne (who holds the memory about horcruxes) using the HPB recipe. Slughorne remarks on his ingenious use of peppermint and wonders how Harry though of it, then says it was the absolute epitome of his mother’s style to do something like that.

Lily’s style of potion making… showing up in a recipe by the then future potions master Snape… Snape can’t be a Voldemort stooge. And still, I go back to him telling Potter to improve his occlumency skills when he should have been killing him, or taking him hostage to present to Voldemort.

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I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

snowy

Yes, but then perhaps Snape would have burned his bridges too soon or too rashly. Severus is nothing if not patient and cunning.

This story isn't nearly as simple as it appears, and anyone who knows Snape at all knows that very well.

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Yakk

Snape isn't complex. Spoiler: Snape is a simple archtype. Snape is "He Who Appears Evil, But Is Not". It has happened in how many books now?

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Martian

True, but he wasn't acting of his own volition, entirely. We know that there was a lot of tension between Snape and Dumbledore during that school year; I'm inclined to believe that it's because Dumbledore was putting Malfoy's life before his own. Snape knows Dumbledore well enough to know that it's exactly the sort of thing he'd do and there was no ambiguity; Snape also knew that Malfoy was tasked with killing him and knew that Voldemort would kill Malfoy if he failed. The only course of action possible at that point that would both spare Malfoy's life and prevent him from having to murder someone is for Snape to kill Dumbledore. Dumbledore likely also considered that he was obviously getting too old to effectively oppose Voldemort, as evidenced by his losing his hand to the horcrux.

Everything in the book seems to point to Dumbledore's foreknowledge of his own death; throughout the book he can be seen putting everything in place so that the order can continue to oppose and eventually defeat Voldemort without him. He gives Harry all the necessary information to defeat Voldemort, he puts the whole affair of Sirius in order and he also spends a lot of time out of the school; while this could be seen as simply due to Voldemort being out in the open and requiring a lot more direct action on his part, it does beg the question of why he didn't come and go so much in OOtP, unless he did and it simply wasn't advertised; after all, when the ministry was denying Voldemort's return he would've had just as much or more to do, yet up until he's deposed by the Umbridge, he isn't noted as being absent from meals any more than usual. It could be construed as him preparing the school to run in his absence, by allowing it to occur as much as possible prior to his death.

Snape took the unbreakable vow at the beginning of the year, yet the plan of having Malfoy kill Dumbledore seems to have been in place for some time prior to that. It's entirely possible that if Snape knew of this plan, Dumbledore know, in which case Snape took the vow on Dumbledore's orders, as it cemented his place as a Death Eater. Narcissa wasn't likely to question his loyalty after that and given how influential Lucius was before his capture (and Narcissa through him) that would go a long way to quieting any grumblings amongst the Death Eater ranks.

And after Dumbledore's death, Snape finds himself in a prime position to strike when the time comes. He'll be trusted implicitly, I should imagine; after all, if he killed Dumbledore, he's clearly not working for him. It's necessary that both the Order believe that he truly did betray them and that he have no further contact with him, because either one of those circumstances could jeopardize his position as a double agent.

I think it's pretty much indisputable that Snape will play a large role in the seventh book either way. I could see him sacrificing himself in order to help Harry finish off Voldemort at the end.

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I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame