Baraka_Guru

This is a book discussion thread for my Fabulous Fantastical Journey through fantasy literature. Discussions here are open and free, as it is assumed that those participating in the thread have read the material already. The use of spoiler tags would be cumbersome, and so they will not be used.

For more information, visit: Baraka's Fabulous Fantastical Journey

A Game of Thrones, George R. R. Martin: Book One of A Song of Ice and Fire

First, let's answer some generic questions about the book:

• How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?
• Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?
• What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?
• What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?
• What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?
• Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

Remember, there aren't any right or wrong answers at this point. These are your opinions. Feel free to hash out your impressions of the book.

I will make my own contributions after I've thought about these questions a bit.

Most important, have fun!

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Baraka_Guru

How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I had a positive reaction to the book, and I know I'm not alone. However, my own experience is that of one returning to the fantasy genre after a long absence, in addition to a specialized honours English degree in between. I had feared that I was ruined by in-depth studies of Chaucer, Shakespeare, poetry throughout the ages, literary theory, and the English Romantics.

I had picked up a few of the books I read as a teenager and was discouraged. These were the Forgotten Realms and Dragonlance books, which I find are too cheesy when it comes to the action and humour. I picked up A Game of Thrones on the recommendation of my good friend, who happened to read it while earning his Ph.D. in poli-sci. I figured if it was good enough for him, it was good enough for me. I was right. It's not Chaucer, but it's certainly popular fiction I can read and enjoy

Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?

The characters are believable. I found them to be realistic, as opposed to flawless/overpowered heroes and villains. My favourite characters are Jon Snow, Arya Stark, and Tyrion Lannister, for various reasons, which I hope to discuss later.

With the exception of Tyrion, I generally loathe those fucking Lannisters. Martin does a great job creating an enemy family with diverse members. I loathe them each for different reasons. I found the most unsavoury and loathsome character to be Viserys, however. He is weak and a coward, which also makes him dangerous.

I now realize that these questions are rather loaded, so I'll stop it right there for now.

What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?

It's difficult to pinpoint a central conflict in a book that runs on multiple viewpoints as this one does. However, I can generally say the central conflict is obviously the battle over the control of the throne. The themes are, again generally, the question of trust in allegiances, rights to power, family loyalty, and personal duty. More on this below, I imagine.

What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?

Martin really is a master of complex plotting through multiple viewpoints. The book is largely character driven, but due to the number of viewpoints, plotting is necessarily strong as well. This is a discussion unto itself, and so I hope much of our focus will be on this aspect.

What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?

I can see Martin is heavily influenced by Arthurian legend. This is evident in much of his take on valour, law, and justice in his world. In more practical terms, it is also evident in terms of the social structure and level of technology, namely, castles/keeps and weaponry. This would put Martin's world to a parallel with Europe's (England's) 6th to 10th centuries (Early Middle Ages). I wasn't too keen on making this connection as I was reading, and so this is in hindsight. If anyone has evidence that perhaps there are some elements of later periods than that, then I'd be happy to be pointed to them.

I'm also keen on having a discussion about the overall geography, which is actually quite fascinating when you think about it. (Especially the way the seasons work.)

At this point, I'm uncertain about the supernatural/fantastical elements of the world. I know there are wraith-type beings (the Others), highly intelligent ravens, and dragons, but the first book doesn't have much of this stuff. I'm guessing more is to come in later books.

Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

In a nutshell: the end was very satisfying, and I'm motherfucking hooked. I'll be starting A Clash of Kings either tonight or tomorrow.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Martian

I'm going to add my thoughts to this thread. However, I just started the fourth book, and the first one has been back at the library for weeks. Apologies if I muddle up plot points between the first and second novel -- I'm working off the Wikipedia summary in order to keep track of which plot events fell where.

How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I've been hearing about this series for a very long time now, so it was really inevitable that I would pick it up sooner or later. I think I grabbed it after a reading recommendation thread here goaded me into it, but I may be misremembering.

I enjoyed the first book of the series immensely. I was struck by Martin's writing style; he does an incredible job of giving the impression of a world that is truly alive and constantly moving. I also enjoyed the fact that he doesn't hit the reader over the head with fantasy or magical aspects of his world. Although the more fantastical elements do start to reappear in later books of the series, it's nice that he doesn't anchor the plot with some all-powerful magical mcguffin; even when these things show up, they're just a part of the world's fabric.


Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?

Part of my issue in answering this is keeping my thoughts restricted to impressions gained during a game of thrones. Anyhoo.

I had a mildly positive reaction to the character of Eddard Stark, whom I'd assumed was going to be the protagonist of the series right up until he was executed. So there was that. I also very much liked Tyrion Lannister, and my fondness for him has only grown as the series has progressed. By far my favourite character in the series is Arya Stark, though I couldn't pin a reason why on it.

On the flip side, I seem to recall that in the first book the Lannisters do a good job as Designated Villains -- their characters do get fleshed out a bit as the series progresses, but in A Game of Throne they're pretty textbook. Joffrey Lannister in particular is rather loathesome to me. You say Viserys is dangerous because he's a coward and weak. Joffrey is Viserys given power.

I do have to give Martin credit, because there were several moments where he managed to surprise or even shock me. Littlefinger's betrayal of Eddard and Eddard's subsequent execution spring to mind.

What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?

Clearly the conflict of the series centers around the Iron Throne, and all the devious machinations that surround it. This provides us with the themes of honour, loyalty and right to rule. So, pretty much what that dude above me said.

What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?

The most striking element of the plot is it's intricacy. Dozens of characters all working towards their own ends, machinations and plots, pacts formed and broken. There's so much happening here, and it's all so finely crafted and fits together beautifully. I honestly don't know how Mr. Martin does it.

What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?

The word that springs to mind when discussing Martin's world is Tolkeinesque. Not so much in the specific elements; there are no orcs or elves or hobbits here. The similarity is in the complexity. As alluded to above, the books do an excellent job of giving an impression of an entire world, with it's own history and mythology and traditions. I appreciate many of the finer details that really give the whole thing that spark and bring it to life.

Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

This is where things are a bit muddy for me, because I'm not certain precisely which details belong to which book; for that reason I'm going to stay very general here.

The ending of the first book (and the first book on the whole) fulfills it's intended purpose remarkably well in that it sets the stage for the future and primary conflicts of the series. Seeing as I'm now chewing through the fourth book as quickly as I can, I think it's safe to say that I am indeed hooked.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

CinnamonGirl

The first time I read A Game of Thrones I burned through it...I read the first three books in two weeks, and the fourth book in two weeks (I wasn't as much a fan of the fourth book.)

I'm rereading it now, and taking my time a bit more... the part I'm at now is pretty much right before all hell breaks loose, and I'm enjoying everyone being together (kind of) and, you know...alive.

Arya is far and away my favorite. She's...plucky. Fearless and spirited, and a big tomboy. Textbook opposite of Sansa, who only irritates me.

Jon & Tyrion are also favorites of mine. I'm paying more attention to Dany this time around, as well. And I absolutely loathe Cersei. Really, I don't think I've ever hated a fictional character as much.

The rest I'll save for when I finish.

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

fresnelly

I just finished A Feast For Crows yesterday.


How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I also picked it up after many recommendations and was hooked very early with the story of the Direwolves.

If I can criticize the books, it's only for the epic scope. I realize this is just part of the genre and a bugbear of my own rather than for most fans. To his credit GRRM is not wasteful and even though I glaze through a lot of the background character names and places, I appreciate how well he ties it all together in the end.

Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?

The characters are convincing, even if their rigid sense of duty and fealty doesn't really exist in our world outside of the military or organized crime.

I really like how GRRM has shaped the main characters over the course of four books. Some have really changed or grown. Sansa and Jaime Lannister for example are very one-note at the beginning but for me they're now two of the biggest question marks in the series. Jon, Arya and Deneares have the most engaging storylines and I'm rooting for them truly but Jaime and Sansa are shaping up to be crucial hinges. Tyrion especially has a lot of layers.

What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?

Oh...power and its fruits, duty vs. desire, family, human nature and its constants... Oh, and comeuppances. Sweet, sweet comeuppances. Those are the best.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

levite

How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it? What do you make of the plot?
What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?

I was first pleasantly surprised, and then really very impressed. Martin is a bona fide master of detail and intricacy. His plot structures are vast. I can barely believe he manages to juggle all the people and places and actions he sets forth, let alone do so with such skill and panache. I love the fact that he is absolutely ruthless. His characters get killed off with almost reckless abandon: you really never know who's going to live and who's going to die. His characters suffer like hell. I love that he has essentially taken the kind of epic adventure of the classic Anglo-French Medieval courtly-love/chivalry genre (I am very much minded of Chretien de Troyes), and turned it on its head: almost none of the knights in Martin's world have any honor, and the few who do have much honor get their ass handed to them, almost literally. War is ugly, not beautiful, the common people suffer greatly for it, the nobles all suck, and you can't turn around without running into rapists, thieves, murderers, and traitors. Martin is like the ultimate revisionist of the courtly love epic of chivalry.

And I also really like the fact that although the first book started out looking to me like a period epic, free of actual elements of the fantastical, the emergence of such elements along the way have really been wonderful treats.

Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites?

I find the characters quite convincing. I think Martin does a great job of keeping characters true to their motivations and development. My favorites have got to be Jon Snow, Arya Stark, and Tyrion Lannister.

Danaerys has both been growing on me.

I can't say I care much for Cersei Lannister, and Peter Baelish irritates the crap out of me. I'm just waiting for someone to kill him. Sansa Stark doesn't do a lot for me, either. And both Joffrey and Viserys are just awful.

What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?


See, I think that's kind of the beauty of the work. It's full of chaos. It's a fucking mare's nest in there. It's all central conflict! The unifying theme seems to be that almost everybody sucks, and if Westeros manages to make it out of all of this with any large number of survivors, it's going to be because somebody like Jon or Arya or Jaime, whom nobody respects or cares about, saves everyone despite themselves.

Is the ending satisfying?

There was an ending?

Are you hooked?

Oh hells yeah! I've been waiting for him to come out with that goddamned last book for like five years already!

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

CinnamonGirl

I just wanted to note... Baraka has only read the first book, and Martian hasn't read the fourth yet; while this thread definitely has AGOT spoilers, please, please don't spoil the other books for them. The series would've lost quite a bit of impact if we'd known about certain situations beforehand, and I'd like to make sure that "impact" is still there for those who haven't read the other three yet.

/soapbox

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

LordEden

* How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I was given this book with great admiration and was told, "Don't fall in love with anyone... ever." I was tried of "single shot" fantasy books and was getting restless with WoT, so this book was a breath of fresh air. The families, the characters, the lands, the places, the stories, I loved every single character in this book. This book showed me what real fantasy should be like, it was like I opened my eyes to world of fantasy for the first time. I fell into the book and I don't really think I made my way back out of it.

* Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?

Every character GRRM wrote played their part to the tee. The villains were evil enough to be convincing but not over-the-top black mustache villains. What "good" guys there were, they fit perfectly in the story line without sticking out like a sore thumb. I loved that characters had life spans, no "1 HP left" heroes here. When edward stark died half way through the book, I knew I had sold my soul to this author and would stick with him through thick and thin.

Everyone seems to list the same three characters as their favorites, which I do agree with those choices. Jon Snow, Arya Stark, and Tyrion Lannister are all wonderful characters and I love Tyrion as my favorite throughout the series. In a land that is ruled by the strength of your sword arm, a misshapen dwarf shines brighter than all of them. Smart, cunning, witty, ruthless with a heart of gold for cripples and whores. He had some of the best lines in the book and the interaction with his family members gave birth to some of the best great conversations.

"They followed me home father, can I keep them?" [in reference to the "army" of Wild Men]

There is one character that I love the most that no one seems to love, and that is Jamie Lannister. I can't go into detail why I love him so much but he is up there in my top 3 favorite characters. I'll talk about him later when we get to other books.

* What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?

Greed, honor, ambition, wrath, love, life and death all have equal footing at this dinner table. I loved when different themes mixed together to form such deadly hybrids that sucked you in and kept you reading.

"The things I do for love."

* What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?

Twisted and deadly like a bag of poisonous snakes. Characters that you thought would be around forever, die in an instance. Characters that I just knew would die in the end, they last forever.

* What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?

I don't know of any comparisons to any other world like GRRM's world. I do like (just like WoT and LotR) that you can point at any place on the map and know the type of person that lives there, who rules it, how they speak, and who they are loyal too.

* Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

Hooked isn't the word. I saw later on the foreshadowing about the rebirth of dragons but I didn't catch it the first go around. His books always setup for the rest of the series. Hooked I say, Hooked.

__________________
Vice-President of the CinnamonGirl Fan Club - The Meat of the Zombiesquirrel and CinnamonGirl Sandwich

Zeraph

I read it awhile ago so I can't answer the specific points, but I did want to say I wasn't as enthralled with it as everyone else. I like long books but this book felt long. There were also many boring spots that I couldn't wait to get through and back to the more interesting parts. Besides two or three characters I didn't really enjoy reading about the rest in so much detail. And finally for a fantasy book it didn't have all that much of a compelling world (though it gets better later in the series when cool fantasy finally starts to happen.)

That's the bad, it was a good book though and I would recommend it.

PS What the heck is taking him so long with his next book? I read quite awhile ago that it was supposed to be out by now.

Baraka_Guru

Yes, thanks, Cinn. It should be the case in all the threads based on series, for both the fantasy reading list and the speculative fiction reading list. Remember: for each book thread, discuss the book itself, not the series as a whole. The exception would be to discuss things that happened in previous books.

This comes up a lot. Everyone likes Tyrion. I'll argue that one reason for this is that Martin gives him what are by far the best lines in the book, and I'm guessing it will remain the case in proceeding books. But what else is it about him? What is compelling? On the surface, he's ugly, and in outward actions, he's unsavoury. But why do we like him? How does Martin create this character of questionable values into someone with whom we sympathize if not root for? (This question is for everyone, really....)

In my own experience with Arya, I find her admirable because of her independence, and at such a young age. Today we call these children "free spirited" and many of us find them unruly, but in Arya's case it's compelling because we know this is a man's world, and she is "just a girl." By the end of the book it comes quite obvious too that she has to grow up motherfucking fast. (I will say more about this in response to the next book.)

I see distinct differences though. Joffrey is the overprivileged, spoiled heir who is given the throne. Viserys is the exiled, last of his line of male heirs who believes is the rightful king. He's down and out and has a strong sense of entitlement, which is a toxic mix. The problem, too, is that he's brash and impatient. His sense of entitlement leads to his downfall, but it's his entire character that ultimately spelled out his doom. It's a pretty clear case in my eyes. Joffrey, however, still remains a bit enigmatic. He's young and immature and untested. (And still alive.)

What is it about her? What makes her such a great villain? Why do you hate her?

Do you think Martin's world is essentially fatalist (what goes around comes around) or is it merely chaos and based on chance?

This is my take too. This is why I compared it more to the early medieval period than to, say, Middle-Earth. It's gritty, it's real, and anyone could die---and they die horribly, and not necessarily heroically or epically.

I think this is crucial to Martin's work, this idea of moral ambiguity. There are no heroes, there really aren't any villains in the classic sense. There are merely allies and enemies, just like in the real world. And even "the good guys" must make choices that are morally questionable. This is a bit of a deviation from, say, the work of Tolkien, where the lines between good and evil are usually clearly defined.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

The_Dunedan

I have been a Martin fan for several years now, and I have to agree with everything that's been said here. Additionally, I have an academic background as an ancient/medieval historian, so the parallels with "our" world are lots of fun. York vs Lancaster = Stark vs Lannister! Hooray Wars Of The Roses!

But what has always sold me was the characters. I have yet to read a single character, in -any- of the Ice And Fire books, that wasn't a captivating and totally believable individual. Viserys is a vicious, impotent little shit...and he's GOOD at it. King Robert is a gluttenous, drunken, whore-chasing Mr. Good Time...and he's GOOD at it. Khal Drogo is just terrifying, Littlefinger and Varys are like watching Wilhelm Canaris and J. Edgar Hoover at work, Theon Greyjoy's near-sociopathic sadism is just plain creepy. The "good guys" are good at being good, the "bad guys" are -really- good at being bad, and everybody has just enough ambiguity about them to be believable. Cersei is a lying, murderous scheming bitch...who does everything she does for her children, just like any mother would do. Caitlyn Stark is beautiful, intelligent, and loving...but indecisive, morose, and sometimes a real drama queen. And as for twisted motherhood, Lysa Arryn is the absolute archetype. Nobody's perfect, perfectly good or perfectly evil. And I love that. Even Sandor Clegane has his human sides, although Ser Gregor is probably as close to Ultimate Evil as Martin ever gets (him or a few of his minions).

Martian

What's interesting about the characters as well is how they're characterized and rounded out. I know that's what you were driving at, but to expand on a couple:

Khal Drogo is terrifying when viewed objectively, but since we're always seeing him from the perspective of Danaerys, who refers to him as her Sun and Stars (and whom he always treats very gently), we get a bit of dissonance between her star-struck heroic view of him and the reality of his actions. Caitlyn is loving and kind to her children and even the 'smallfolk' (as the book dubs commoners), but the way she treats her husband's own bastard son is rather monstrous ("it should have been you"), and that's not even considering the character development she gets later in the series that I won't spoil here. Even the Mountain that Rides is given a bit of an explanation in later books, although admittedly in the first he's just a straight up villain.

I'd be very interested to have a discussion about who actually qualifies as the most villainous character in the series, but we really need to be on the third or fourth book before we can get into the meat of that one.

On the flip side, most of the heroes are somewhat less than heroic. The biggest and best example from the first book is probably Eddard Stark himself. His rigid code of honour is admirable, but that combined with his complete lack of political savvy is his undoing in the end. His brother Benjen puts off a serious Aragorn vibe before he mysteriously vanishes, never to be heard from again (at least in this volume). Robb is certainly brave enough and if he'd been given the chance to grow up first may have been a codified hero archetype, but at this point he's clearly in way over his head.

Bluntly, I've found both Varys and Littlefinger to be rather inscrutable. What either one is driving at is completely beyond me.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

The_Dunedan

I agree about Drogo, and part of the -reason- he's both terrifying and a tremendous erotic and semi-romantic figure is that the fact that you -do- see him from Dany's VP. You know what he is: you see the kind of people he leads. Dany is terrified at her own wedding; three or four random young men kill one another on the dancing-floor fighting over women! This cat is Shaka Zulu, Ghengis Khan, and Geronimo all rolled into one 220lb package of pure dominance. From Dany's VP, having been raised in a very submissive role, to be required to be even more submissive but to Drogo ALONE is a revelation. She submits to Drogo, but in return she is required (or even, truthfully, -permitted-) to submit to nobody else, as Viserys learns to his grief. It's a very Dom/Sub relationship in a lot of ways, but it becomes very empowering for her. It's hard not to see how this would produce extremely intense emotions and attachments, especially in someone so young. The historical-fiction author Sharon Kay Pennman has remarked that the people of the Middle Ages, in a time before science or what we today would call skepticism (although atheism certainly existed), lived their lives in a state of what we today would describe as a child-like level of emotional intensity. I find it difficult to fault either her reasoning, her research, or her translations in that regard, and I think Martin captures that perfectly. It's there in all of his characters on one level or another (as you'll see), but nowhere is it more obvious (except perhaps once else) than with Dany and Drogo.

spindles

It is hard to comment on specifics - I read these 4 books a long time ago (and am also hanging out for book 5).

What I loved about these books when reading them is that no-one is safe from being bumped off. There is no all powerful hero type and it is not clear who the baddies are.

I think people love Tyrion as he represents what most people see themselves as (no, not stunted dwarves). He is the epitome of underdog, in that everyone underestimates him. He is cleverly able to use both his family position and obtain the favour of the lower class because of his deformity/approachability.

He survives mostly on his wits, as he obviously doesn't have the brawn.

I see parallels with the LoTR, but moreso the movie versions, where the heroes were a bit more real life with all their warts than what is portrayed in the book/s.

With regard to the setting, the black company on the wall has a real hint of Hadrian's wall about it. Someone with a better idea of history could probably give us a time frame for that.

I'm seriously tempted to move these books to my 'read again' shelf now (except that it is pretty much full). I will do a re-read when book 5 arrives though.

__________________
who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

CinnamonGirl

It's hard for me to answer this without talking about the other books, but...hmmm. Her ambition and lust for power are her driving forces, with little regard to anything or anyone else, save her children. Even then, I think their being "wronged" is more of a personal affront to her, not anything to do with caring how they feel.

What cemented my dislike was when she had Lady killed. Silly, I know, but she was so bent on revenge (for something that was entirely Joffrey's fault), that she didn't care who gt the brunt of it. I'm entirely certain she would've imprisoned Arya (or worse) if she thought she could've gotten away with it. Everything after that just added to the fire.

__________________
"...for though she was ordinary, she possessed health, wit, courage, charm, and cheerfulness. But because she was not beautiful, no one ever seemed to notice these other qualities, which is so often the way of the world."


"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?"

LordEden

Spindles got it right, he is the underdog. I think he is most complex of characters in GRRM's books. He can show love and compassion to someone then call for the torture/death of those around him (who threaten his family/kingdom in which he has a strange love/hate relationship with). He sees the world through a dwarf's eyes and that causes him to deal with situations that no one in this world has to deal with. He can only find solace in whores and other cripples/bastards, but he can love. His hate is cold and meticulous, not the rage of fire that others hold. He keeps it inside him and wields it like a scalpel. He does things that surprise me to no end (Again, references other books that I can't get into). Tyrion and Jamie are my two favorite characters in the whole series because of who they are in this book and what they become by the 4th.

As Cinn said, alot of her "villainy" comes out later in the books but is clear she is out for her own gains. She is not just ambitious that she wants the best for her and her children, she wants it ALL. She cares nothing about those around her and will mercilessly devour anyone who gets in her way. She knows how beautiful she is and will use it in a heartbeat if it furthers her advancement in life. She wants power and she will do anything (Fuck/steal/kill) in order to gain it for herself. She will do all of this with a smile on her face and not a moment's regret. She cares nothing about anyone but kids (even sometimes I feel that they are just there because of their ties to the throne). Even the love she feels for Jamie is twisted to the point of insanity (besides being twins and the incest). She is just deep down and evil person, not caring or compassionate in the least. She believes, deep down in her soul, that the world has fucked her over and she wants to get even with everyone around her.

I read a quote somewhere that stuck with me for years and I believe it applies here. "Honor isn't about making the right choices, it's about dealing with the consequences."

*****

Varys I could do without but Littlefinger is in my top 5 characters. He's smart, ruthless, and (which is surprising) honest (in part) to those around him. The way he handled Edward was key, he told him from the beginning how to act around the council, but stark only listened to half of what he said. He told him not to trust him (Many times over), yet stark thought he was joking. His back-story is only partially fleshed out here, but he really gained the power he wields through political and financial intelligence. He knows who controls what, how to make money when there is no money to be made, and how to keep those around him fighting shadows. He knows what he wants and gains so much, without lifting a sword. I love it.

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spindles

So, I picked this book up again during last week. I'm almost done. I've just read the section where Robb's army is trying to cross the river at the twins and the passage where Catelyn and Walder Frey are negotiating. Here is a guy with a strategically positioned castle and he just wants people to take him seriously.

The conversation between Catelyn and Robb when she comes back to say they can cross the river is brilliant.

Also, Lord Commander Mormont's Raven and its incessant "Corn Corn" and other mimicking is funny.

edit - fixed that one confusing word!

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LordEden

Hey Spindles, watch the spoilers. Some of us that are reading the first book are not done with the second book. Keep the spoilers for each book in the thread for the book. The second book's thread is here (Clash of kings).

Let's not spoil anything for the people reading it for the first time.

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spindles

Sorry, that should read 'section' not second. I'm still in the first book (promise!)

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LordEden

Got ya, I just saw "second" and skimmed over the rest. Just trying to help the first timers out, I know BG is reading through it for the 1st time and I don't want to spoil anything for him.

(I should also know when stuff happens in the series, I'm a bad GRRM fan)

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fresnelly

Now that I've read all four, they all kind of blend together. I'll probably wait until the fourth thread before discussing specific events.

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Baraka_Guru

Actually, the Wikipedia entries on specific books have decent plot summaries. That is, if you want to talk about the overarching plotlines.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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snowy

Finished this book early last week but only now got around to the thread. The short answer to how much I liked it: I'm now plowing through A Clash of Kings.

How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I devoured it as much as I could between work and a very busy life at the moment.

Are the characters convincing?
Martin is truly gifted at characterization. I enjoy the vast diversity of his characters across the novel.

Who are your favourites?
Tyrion, of course. Arya. Sandor Clegane, oddly.

Least favourites?
Cersei, but she does serve her purpose.

What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?
Eddard Stark really should have listened to Littlefinger.

What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?
Obviously, in an epic book like this, that's a hard question to answer. The title captures a lot of it, I think.

What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?
I like how the POV switches every chapter to give you another piece of the plot. Getting the different sides of the conflicts present in the novel make it truly engaging.

What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?
It is an epic world, on the scale of Tolkien's world, or LeGuin's Earthsea. I like how over the book, more and more of the world, and more information about it, is revealed.

Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

Satisfied and hooked.

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spindles

I wonder how people's view of the book has been affected by the TV series (if at all). I had a few oddities (like Renly's sexuality) that I didn't read in the book. Maybe I'm not as bright as I thought

Otherwise, the pictures on screen just reinforced my love of this book/series.

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Strange Famous

* How did you experience the book? Beyond whether you simply liked it or not, what were your initial reactions to it?

I read it in a couple of days. If I can use simple terms, I liked it. I dont think it is without flaws, it annoys me how the "smallfolk" seem to be not only irrelevant to most of the characters, but also the story itself. I find simply keeping up with all of the characters names a bit much sometimes. On the plus side, the writer has created a convincing and well padded backdrop to the story, the characters seem more human than normal fantasy stories, there are enough crazy plot twists to keep you interested.

* Are the characters convincing? Who are your favourites? Least favourites? What were your favourite actions? Motivations? Feats of valour? Turns of deceit?

My favourites are Sandor Clegane, Bronn, Dany and Ayra Stark. Sandor because he maintains a sense of honour without submitting to the fake ethic of chivalry that surrounds him; he is a hard man but true to himself. Bronn for similar reasons. Dany because of her emerging strength of character and the bravery with which she faces the horrible situation she is in. Ayra because she is brave, plucky, and does not hold the "smallfolk" in the contempt that most of the other lords and ladies do.

I actually despise Catelyn Stark. I find her manipulative, selfish, and utterly bad hearted (her complete rejection of Jon Snow is revolting). There are other characters in the book just as evil in their hearts (like Joffrey's mother) but Catelyn believes herself to be good and self righteous and this makes her proud and utterly selfish actions worse to me.

* What is the central conflict? What are the major themes running throughout?

To me the central conflict is Eddard Stark's battle between his common sense and his sense of duty. He is not an idiot, yet he does utterly stupid things because he believes them to be right. And look where it gets him and those he loves and wishes to protect. To me it is about what the corrupt system does with good men.

* What do you make of the plot? How do the events unfold and fit together? What drives the book?

Clearly the coming wars are what drives the first book. I havent read the other books, but I suspect there is a greater threat than the dynastic battle for the thrown of the bad king Robert.

* What do you make of Martin's world? What resemblances do you see?

I think it is built on an idea of feudal ecomonies in Europe with an extra touch of magic and strangeness (but this is how the world would have appeared to people then when ghosts were real)

* Is the ending satisfying? Was it predictable? How well does it set up the rest of the series? Are you hooked?

It wasnt predictable to me. I thought Dany was done for, and the thing that happens to her is the first time the story really seems to change from being a human one to a magical one. I am not sure if I like that or not, because the human story was easier for me to identify with. But I will read on, I am interested to see if Dany can reclaim what is rightfully hers and what was taken by the hooligan Robert.

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