Willravel

Imagine my shock upon discovering that the greatest debate of all time hadn't yet been given a home on TFP!



James Tiberius Kirk. What is there to say? The man is a space-god. After being one of the only survivors of the massacres of Tarsus IV, he served with distinction at Starfleet Academy, graduating at the top 5% of his class. Because of his exploratory work at Starfleet, he was promoted to a full Lieutenant, bypassing Ensign (which he has served on the USS Republic during his schooling).

He rose in the ranks quickly by showing incredible aptitude in leadership and ability, besting gas monsters (which would prepare him for future, shinier gas cloud monsters). At age 31, Kirk was the youngest captain in the history of Starfleet. At this point in his life, he had developed an awesomeness normally reserved for the likes of Church Norris facts or Johnny Depp.

I won't go into great detail about his work which was covered in the series or the movies, but leave us say that Kirk is one of the most memorable characters in TV, movie, or inappropriate homoerotic slash fanfic history.

Among his great strengths are his unconventional (yet highly effective) hand to hand combat fighting methods, his apparent racism towards Klingons, the ability to make people laugh with his fuzzy balls, his incredible battle tactics, and his ability to rally his crew with an undeniable Kirk swagger. Also, women love him in a way only a writer could imagine.



Jean-Luc Picard. What do you get when you cross Aristotle, Dr. Henry Jones, Alexander the Great and Winston Churchill? Captain Jean-Luc Picard, that's who. Also roachboy, I suspect, but the amounts of each differ. Consult the recipe. Born of a great French lineage that included everything from explorers to wine makers, Picard apparently developed a British accent at a very young age. When he wasn't fighting with his older brother, Robert (no, it's pronounced ro-bear, like "row boat"), he was looking to the stars and dreaming of exploring the galaxy.

After one failed attempt, Picard applies to and is accepted to Starfleet Academy, where he earned very high marks and was considered one of the best cadets in his class. While he excelled at sports, particularly running, he also started to develop an appreciation for archeology which would develop into a life-long passion. While playing a rigged game of dom-jot with some friendly Nausicans(

), Picard was caught in a deadly fight and was stabbed through the chest. This was a pivotal moment in the life of Picard; a moment when he realized his own mortality, which caused him to mature and cast off some of his youthful pride and recklessness.

After graduating with distinction from Starfleet Academy, Picard demonstrated great leadership skills and judgment, causing him to be promoted quickly. His first command was on the Stargazer, a Constellation-class starship, where he served for 22 years. In those 22 years, Picard led the Stargazer on many adventures as he honed his uncanny leadership and captaining skills to near-perfection.

His assignment as capitain of the USS Enterprise NCC-1701D was the opening of the series Star Trek: TNG.

Among his strengths are his ability to provide a worthy adversary to Q (who is for all intents and purposes a god), unmatched debating and negotiation skills, being an intergalactic sex symbol without embellishing the role (like some people...), a master tactician, and is the perfect delegater.


Okay, so let the debate begin...

I may be biased because I didn't experience TOS when it originally ran, but I believe Picard to be the superior captain. Captain Picard chose to go back in time to 20th century Earth via the holodeck, wheras Kirk managed to find his way back there on accident nearly half the series. You'd never have to clean Picard's semen out of the holodeck after he'd used it. Moreover, Picard demonstrated greater abilities in his delegation, negotiation, and exploration.

Thoughts?

Fremen

Wow, this should be good!

I grew up on TOS, played with the toys as a kid.
I convinced myself that I was ok because my chubby little boy-boobs were the same as Kirk's muscled pectorals.

You knew Kirk would save the day when his shirt came off.
He was the perfect hero for a kid growing up. An action hero.
----
Now, Picard. Picard came around when I was 18 or 19.
He wasn't so much an action hero, as a thinking hero.
I liked the way he reasoned out the solution to a problem, had some tea, then solved it.
Sometimes he even reverted to the action hero when things got too sticky.

--

If I had to put my life in the hands of a starship captain, I'd have to say Picard is the captain to go with.

I feel I've betrayed my childhood, though.

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LoganSnake

I didn't even had to look at the thread to know who made it when I saw it on the front page....

Just a thought...

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Willravel

Freman, I like your take. Kirk was the perfect hero for a young person and Picard for an adult.

Logan, huh? If it's because I'm a Star Trek fan, then I'm honored!

Edit: I'm excited about The_Jazz finding this thread and posting his obligatory "NERDS" post.

inBOIL

Picard, obviously. All Kirk does is fight and fuck. Picard thinks. Plus, he resisted Kamala. Could you do that? Hell no.

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Reese

I feel just a little nerdy since those mini-biographies didn't tell me anything new

Kirk was a racist hippie! His sexual advances were borderline sexual harassment. The only thing more creepy is Richard Dawson on Family Feud.

Picard was more reserved. He was smarter than Kirk. He didn't let his emotions get in the way of what needed to be done. He was a big fan of pre-21st century literature. I don't think there was a book on his shelf dated post-1999. Apparently, there's no really good entertainment in the future because man that guy is stuck in the past!

Personally, My favorite Captain was:

Oh sure, Sam is a Major, No wait, Lt. Colonel, I mean Colonel now.. But still she could still be demoted back to Captain, just like Kirk

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Willravel

Maybe we can have Carter vs. Starbuck next time.

Reese

You could actually have a Starbuck vs Starbuck


vs


but I think I know who'd win

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Prophecy

For my money Picard hands down. Also put me in the same boat as Freeman & Willravel, Kirk for the kids and Picard for the adults.

However, my favorite captain to date is Benjamin Sisko with Jean-Luc a close second.

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La Fede È Il Mio Schermo,
Non salti Ciecamente In Incertezza,
E Potete Raccogliere Le Ricompense.

Daniel_

Clearly it's NEW Starbuck - everyone knows that smoking is a really bad habit.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Charlatan

Kirk is the ultimate modernist hero. He is all about dominating and conquering the other denizens of the Universe to his way (the Federation way). Despite his rhetoric, he is a conquering hero out to colonize. His crew is mainly human. His ethos is to bring about conformity.

Picard is the ultimate post-modern hero. His job is the police the already largely conquered Universe. He can live up to the Federation rhetoric of non-intervention as most of the other denizens of the Universe have already joined the cause. He has the appearance of being open to Others. His crew is made up of many different races and types. However, they have all internalized the message of the conquering Federation. Colonization is much closer to completion (with some notable exceptions in the Romulans, Ferengi and Cardasians). As such, the Other has largely been subsumed and conquered or rendered completely "evil". Picard's ethos is one of fairness and multiplicity; he is a diplomat and thinker. However, despite protestations to the contrary, he travels the Universe in a military ship. A ship that is armed to the teeth and is ready to defend (and even expand) the frontier.

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eribrav

But you need to put Kirk in the right historical context.
You're accusing him of improprieties that you see with modern world view; back then he took the giant leap of kissing a black woman on screen, which was viewed as very edgy behavior. Today it's not even an issue at all (except for the fact that Nichelle is such a hotty and will be for all time!). Back then, did the term sexual harassment even exist?

yellowmac

Picard.

I mean, he's got a tactical maneuver named after him. That alone reeks of bad-ass.

With his leadership style, I'd be his #2. I get the feeling I'd want to punch Kirk in the face after three days.

shoegirl

Agreed. Picard gets my vote!

QuasiMondo

That's all you need to know about Captain James T. Kirk.

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ratbastid

She smokes.

She could also totally fucking TAKE DOWN the old Starbuck. She may be among my favorite characters on TV right now, right up there with Benjamin Linus and Alton Brown.

tecoyah

Picard is the Man's Man.....Kirk is the Womans Man.


Kirk was a great captain for his time...But would be dead by episode two in the new order of the galaxy.

Picard would have kicked Klingon Ass to the point that they would have crumpled before the original series even ended.

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snowy

Picard, hands down. He's clearly the sexier of the two choices. Especially when he says, "Tea. Earl Grey. Hot."

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Willravel

Hmmm... episode 2 of TNG was the intoxication episode.... oh god, yeah Kirk would have screwed everything on the ship. Twice.

jewels

Picard all the way.

Kirk is a much better attorney, though.

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Anxst

Picard, all the way.

Kirk, for all his machismo, just doesn't have a broad reaching enough leadership skill, imho. He couldn't lead me anywhere. I'd just want to punch him in the face after a few days.

Picard, on the other hand, I can see leading a group of damn near anything. I'd follow him wherever he wanted to lead us.

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Willravel

I'd say the same thing, save for one location: Star Trek Nemesis. Not even Picard, with all his intellect and refinement, could save that poor script.

Speed_Gibson

Picard would have never have cheated on theKobayashi Maru, but he did lose his heart as a youngster by jumping into that bar fight with those bony faced aliens.

My choice is Kirk for numerous reasons

if the question was asked "What Enterprise would you prefer to serve on given the choice?" I would pick the Kirk Era Constitution class despite all of the fancier toys on the Excelsior/Ambassador/Galaxy/Sovereign models that followed.

edit: I do prefer watching the mid 23rd century era where the captain goes down on away missions but it makes more sense what they do on TNG - who would seriously send down the CO, 1st officer, and third in command down on the same trip into unknown and possibly quite dangerous situations.

and Sisko is a close second if not first in some respects on my list of favourite captains.

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Black Adder

Willravel

Who? Someone looking to advance quickly, that's who!

Vigilante

Pickard for me. I enjoyed TNG in high school. I prefer brains over swagger, probably because that's the way I roll, too.

And there is a maneuver named after Kirk too, they mentioned it in the Nemesis movie I think.

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Willravel

It's where the Enterprise moves behind the enemy ship and penetrates it from the rear. They tried it with the Scimitar, but no means no.

pan6467

I was not as much of a NG fan, so Kirk. Kirk had Dr. McCoy, Spock, Chekov, Sulu, and Scotty. They were the first.

Now as a whole, in the Star Trek Universe, I liked Janeway and Scott Bakula as captains also, they were on better shows, IMHO. NG and DS9 just were not my idea of Star Trek.

Now as a side note growing up in the 70's watching classic 60's shows..... I always wondered this...... James T. West, who was also from Iowa, was he a forefather of James T. Kirk?????? The T stood for Tiberius for both men, btw.

There is some great debate that could be had, as Gene Roddenberry did produce 6 episodes of Wild Wild West's season 1.

Wiki has this to say about it:

The Wild Wild West - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Sorry about the threadjack, but I couldn't help myself.... I loved both shows and Robert Conrad and William Shatner not only were similar actors but resembled each other to a young boy who worshipped both.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Jim West?! I never considered that! I don't have the familiarity with WWW that I do with ST: TOS, but I suppose I can see that.

I liked Captain Archer a great deal because he was more innocent and less experienced than the others of the series. There was something fresh about Bakula's take that I really enjoyed. Still, I don't think enough people saw all of Enterprise to really get what the Archer character was all about. UPN fumbled Enterprise.

ratbastid

Well, Roddenberry did say that Star Trek is "a western in space". So I wouldn't be surprised.

Perhaps by TNG, his wild west had settled down into post-Victorian gentility?

I take Picard--he's less of a cartoon, although that may have something to do with the mad skillz of one Patrick Stewart, relative to those of Bill Shatner.

But my FAVORITE trek captain and FAVORITE trek show are Janeway and Voyager. It was a total return to the frontier swashbuckling spirit of TOS with the enlightened TNG spirit. The two were melded beautifully.

Speed_Gibson

sounds like the mirror universe.
I think Leonard looked better with the goatee

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Started talking to yourself I see.
Yes, it's the only way I can be certain of an intelligent conversation.

Black Adder

Lasereth

I am 100% biased here because I've never even seen 1 episode of the original Star Trek but Picard gets my vote because TNG was one of my favorite shows ever. ever. EVERRRRR

Vizzini

I think you got that backwards myself

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Sun Tzu

Horatio Hornblower eat your heart out. I didn’t like the show Enterprise at first. The crew and especially Archer just didn’t seem to have the right feel. After the second season, however, I thought it was the best writing out of all of them. Archer ended up being my favorite.

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Fremen

Nice TOS avatar, Sun Tzu.

And Lasereth, you can watch TOS on TvLand at 6:00 am EST, Mon-Fri.

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cameroncrazy822

Top 100 Reasons (I think they're all pretty good/valid) Why Captain Kirk is Better Than Captain Picard (found on the net: contributed by: Kristin Richardson)

100. Kirk is a leader, not a follower.

99. Kirk never really got into that kinky "Jumpsuit" look.

98. Kirk has sex more than once a season.

97. One Word: Hair.

96. Another Word: Pretty-good-looking-can't-see-the-weave-WIG.

95. Kirk can beat up a Klingon bare-handed.

94. Picard is a French man with an English accent.

93. Kirk would date Beverly Crusher -- and damn the consequences!!

92. Kirk never drinks tea. Ever.

91. Diplomacy for Kirk is a phaser and a smirk.

90. Kirk would personally throw Wesley off his bridge.

89. Two words: Shoulder Roll.

88. Kirk doesn't wear dresses when admirals arrive for lunch.

87. Kirk once said: "I've got a belly-ache -- and it's a beauty."

86. Kirk would never sing to children in a crisis.

85. Kirk can almost drive a stick shift.

84. Kirk, almost single-handedly, re-populated the Earth's whale population.

83. Kirk says "Prime Directive? What Prime Directive?"

82. Kirk knows 20th Century curses.

81. Kirk was NEVER infiltrated by the Borg and used against the Federation.

80. Kirk ate little coloured cubes and still remained relatively healthy.

79. Kirk made do with obviously low performance technology.

78. Kirk never pretends to be a barber in order to gain a tactical advantage.

77. Kirk wasn't shy about taking his shirt off --even around those pesky Yeomans.

76. Kirk would never waste a holodeck on something stupid like Dixon Hill.

75. Kirk never once stood up and had to straighten his shirt.

74. One Word: Velour.

73. Kirk can beat a Vulcan at Chess.

72. When Kirk was Picard's age, he retired from Admiral and took to climbing rocks.

71. When Picard was 37, he was only Captain of the lowly freighter, Stargazer. When Kirk was 37, he was Captain of the flagship Enterprise.

70. Kirk liked a good belt of liquor every now and again.

69. One Word: Iman.

68. Kirk looks good with a ripped shirt.

67. If Kirk ever met a Ferengi, he would rip off its head and shit down its neck.

66. Kirk says "Shoot first and wait for retaliation."

65. Kirk's first officer NEVER tells him to stay on the bridge.

64. Kirk never leaves the room to bawl somebody out.

63. Kirk doesn't rely on the wisdom of some dumb old janitor to get him out of intergalactic scrapes.

62. Two Words: Funky Sideburns.

61. Kirk never asks his bartender for advice.

60. Kirk never once said "Abandon ship! All hands abandon ship!"

59. Kirk is not politically correct.

58. Kirk never got "dumped" by a woman for an intergalactic busy body named after a letter of the alphabet.

57. Kirk never wore green tights and frolicked about in Sherwood Forest.

56. If there was ever a Klingon on Kirk's bridge, Kirk would likely be dead.

55. Ever hear of a bar shooter called "Make it so?" No? How about a "Beam me up Scotty" then? See the difference?

54. One Word: Miniskirts.

53. Kirk's girlfriends always look good in soft light.

52. Kirk never went anywhere without a whole bunch of guys in red shirts.

51. Kirk's first officer didn't play some wimpy instrument like the trombone.

50. Kirk had more dates than his first officer.

49. The extent of Kirk's knowledge of Klingon vocabulary can be roughly translated as "GO F*CK YOURSELF."

48. If something doesn't speak English -- it's toast.

47. Kirk wasn't some prissy archaeology fan.

46. Picard's middle name isn't tough or awe-inspiring like Tiberius is.

45. If Kirk finds a strange spinning probe, he blows it up.

44. Picard never met Joan Collins.

43. Picard flunked his entrance exams to Starfleet.

42 Picard hasn't fathered any children; Kirk -- probably millions.

41. Kirk has a cool phaser -- not some pansy Braun mix-master.

40. Two Words: Line Delivery.

39. Picard grew up on a quaint little French vineyard, squishing grapes with his toes, while Kirk slung bails of wheat and hay in Iowa to put himself through school.

38. Kirk emphasizes his orations with pertinent hand gestures.

37. Kirk once made a cannon out of bamboo, sulphur, potassium nitrate, charcoal and then fired diamonds into the hearts of his enemies. (Need we say more?)

36. Kirk is not put off by green skin.

35. Kirk knows how to deal with peace loving hippy goofs.

34. Kirk once fought a Greek god. And won.

33. Kirk barely asks for suggestions. And if he does, he asks Spock only.

32. Kirk doesn't let the doctor tell him what to do.

31. One Word: Fisticuffs.

30. Kirk's name is hated throughout the galaxy.

29. Kirk appreciates Shakespeare, but he doesn't let it show.

28. You can never lock up Kirk for very long.

27. Kirk's eulogies can actually make you cry.

26. Kirk plays god with lesser cultures, and then exploits them for resources.

25. Kirk's son would never drop out to become a musician.

24. Kirk can climb up a Jeffries Tube and fix anything.

23. Kirk never hired an engineer with punk glasses.

22. The Klingons didn't have a word for surrender -- until they met Kirk.

21. Kirk's bridge is not beige.

20. Two Words: Crane Shots.

19. Picard likes wimpy violin music -- and coerces Data into playing it.

18. Picard allows cats on board, while Kirk beams away even really cute things, like Tribbles.

17. Kirk is a cultural icon -- Picard is just some guy who's really nice.

16. Kirk specifically ordered a swivel LA-Z-BOY for the bridge.

15. Kirk would never touch SYNTHAHOL.

14. Kirk looks distinguished in reading glasses -- and nobody dares to call him "four eyes."

13. Kirk can infiltrate Gangsters, Nazis, and even the Pentagon -- easily.

12. Picard likes painting nudes, for art's sake.

11. When Kirk doesn't trust the Romulans, he fires at them. When Picard doesn't trust the Romulans, he gets fired at.

10. Kirk never once, ever, wore a wiener wrapping Speedo banana hammock on shore leave.

9. Kirk never gets his command codes locked out by some pimply acting ensign.

8. Kirk doesn't test the engines -- he just fires them up.

7. When Kirk says "Boldly Go," he MEANS it.

6. Three Words: Flying Leg Kick

5. Picard's crew would never ever think of him as a sexual object.

4. Kirk traveled through The Great Barrier, met God, and wasn't even impressed.

3. Kirk's bedroom is a passion pit with electric sheets.

2. Kirk would never let his Chief of Security wear a ponytail.

1. One Word: Balls

pan6467

There is one that can be added to that list Cameron... and it is he most important one.....

Picard never had John Belushi parody him on SNL.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

cameroncrazy822

That is absolutely correct sir... well said

No Comparison

highthief

Man, I weep for this generation (well, not really, it's just a figure of speech) who do not understand the awesomeness that is Kirk.

By the time Picard came along, half the galaxy was mapped - there were supply stations and friendly allies everywhere. The job was easy, even Riker could have done it.

When Kirk was kicking ass, everything was unkown. It took weeks for messages to reach Starfleet command. He and his crew had to do everything themselves. It was all done by the seat of their pants, and true ingenuity and courage was required.

You all probably think Alan Alda is a better man than Charlton Heston, too.

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abaya

HA! Yeah, exactly. Other than that, however, I think I was lusting after Picard at an age when I didn't even know what lusting meant (pre-teens). He will always be first on my Star Trek Captains list. I even bought a book-on-tape (yes, actual cassette tape, that long ago) with Patrick Stewart reading "A Christmas Carol," because I liked him and his voice so much.

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PonyPotato

Picard. Definitely the best, in my opinion.

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