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guy44 10-31-2007 07:18 PM

New Joss Whedon Show: Dollhouse
 
Joss Whedon is returning to TV with a new show. Summary: he's developing it with Fox, has seven guaranteed episodes, and it will star Eliza Dushku. Relevant info here.

Quote:

Hear that? It's the sound of Joss Whedon fans around the world freaking the frak out. (And I am one of them!)

I'm thrilled to tell you that just this afternoon, Joss Whedon rang me up to break the news that after a long, Whedonless TV drought, we Buffy fans are finally getting another TV series created by Mr. Whedon himself. Hell. Yeah.

While you scream, hyperventilate and then (hopefully) recover, I will tell you this: The news gets even better.

Whedon's new Fox series, called Dollhouse, stars Miss Eliza Dushku, best known as Faith to you Buffy the Vampire Slayer fans. And, this show isn't just a pilot. It's already been given a seven-episode commitment by Fox. Whoo!

The series, according to Fox, is about "Echo (Eliza Dushku), a young woman who is literally everybody's fantasy. She is one of a group of men and women who can be imprinted with personality packages, including memories, skills, language—even muscle memory—for different assignments. The assignments can be romantic, adventurous, outlandish, uplifting, sexual and/or very illegal. When not imprinted with a personality package, Echo and the others are basically mind-wiped, living like children in a futuristic dorm/lab dubbed the Dollhouse, with no memory of their assignments—or of much else. The show revolves around the childlike Echo's burgeoning self-awareness, and her desire to know who she was before, a desire that begins to seep into her various imprinted personalities and puts her in danger both in the field and in the closely monitored confines of the Dollhouse."

So, how did Dollhouse come about? When will it start given the impending strike? And what are the chances a few Buffy alums might make it onto the show? To find out, read on for my exclusive one-on-one Q&As with creator and executive producer Joss Whedon and star and producer Eliza Dushku. (Pinch me.) You honestly won't believe how fast this all happened, or where the idea first began!

Oh, and P.S. to all you fans of writer/producer Tim Minear (Angel, Wonderfalls, Firefly, Drive). He tells us: "Joss has pathetically begged me to be involved. And I hate to see a slightly younger man weep like a girl. So, I said 'm'kay.' I'll be playing with dolls one way or t'other."

This might be too much goodness to bear, no?!

JOSS WHEDON

So, first of all, congratulations!! I'm freaking out. And thanks for thinking of me for this news.
You're welcome and thank you. I remember last time I saw you on the Office set, you said "Come back to TV." So, it was all you. That's what caused it, so...

Ha! Well, thank you for doing this for me.
Yes, that's going to be the poster. "Dollhouse: It's for Kristin."

I love that you are reuniting with Ms. Eliza Dushku.
I know. How 'bout that?

Can you tell me how this all came about?
Through a rather time-honored tradition called "lunch." Eliza had her deal with Fox, and we went to lunch, as we sometimes do, to talk about her career and what her next step should be. Like, do I know writers, and what was the best way to protect herself, and what type of show. Eliza and I do this sometimes, because she's a friend and a great talent, and that's easily misused. She was trying to protect herself, and I was trying to get a free lunch. In the middle of lunch, I came up with the idea of this show and the title by accident.

Tell me this isn't that easy for you…that it just came to you in between bites.
I went to the bathroom and came back, and said "I figured it out," so there it is. It took longer than between bites. It came so organically through our conversation, and what I know she is capable of, and what she was talking about and what people were expecting of her. It just kinda happened, and when it happens like that and it has a title—that's a big deal, if it has a title, you can't just turn your back on it. So, I told her, and she freaked out, and I told her I was busy with these films I am trying to setup, but Fox is interested, and Fox said let's do seven episodes instead of a pilot and here I am.

So, you have a seven-episode commitment?
Yeah.

In your own words, how would you describe Dollhouse?
The idea is those with the money or connections can access this secret highly illegal facility where they can basically fulfill their greatest fantasies, and most people assume that means sex and on an occasion it does because that is a lot of people's fantasies, but it's basically scenarios. They can basically reenact scenarios of romance, adventure or anything perfectly, because they become the person that you want them to be—they become that person. They don't act like that person, they are not a robot pretending, they become that person, and then they forget all about it. The problem is the character of Echo, Eliza Dushku's character, stops forgetting. She doesn't completely remember, but she does realize she is a person, and that she might have been a person before she did this, and she doesn't know what that is.

Do you feel like this is a very different role for Eliza, or do you feel there are some commonalities with her Buffy or Tru Calling roles?
Every now and then she will be called upon to kick ass because one of the many personalities she can get downloaded with is sort of a La Femme Nikita—she can be the best of whatever she does and that includes sweat work—and whatever she is hired for and she isn't harmed, and the company isn't exposed, they don't really care what it is. Some of her jobs are sweet and uplifting, but yeah, sometimes she'll be a sweet girl, others she will be that down-home Eliza thing—go Soxs—and sometimes she will be completely elegant, completely naive, completely helpless. She could be a neuroscientist, she could be ballroom dancing, she could be doing absolutely anything.

The thing about Eliza is that she has a lot of colors to play like most good actresses, but Eliza has kinda gotten pigeonholed. I see those big eyes, and I see the innocence they can play, the decency that is in them and the way that we can refer, and that isn't just hey, I'm the tough girl. There's much more there.

Can I ask you, why the decision to return to television now? Do you feel like you are finally ready to dig back in?
I have to say when they told me seven, part of me was like tired, scared…basically because I haven't been in that world, and I have children, and I don't like to not be around them, which is problematic. But the fact is, it was also somebody saying we trust that you can tell this story, and we love this story, so go and tell it. That's a damn boat of confidence. That's a grownup license fee, it was a big commitment, and they weren't afraid at any point. My experience with the movies hasn't gone quite as well. It isn't terrible to hear yes, instead of the other thing.

In terms of TV, I have tried to be very clear that there's nothing about TV that I don't love. I mean, I've always loved movies, and I still want to make movies—movies are cool, but TV has things that movies never have. The ability to really just delve into something and take it apart endlessly which I adore. It's very organic.

I went home to my wife, and we've been talking about doing lower-budget movies and not being beholden by these tent-pole things that I couldn't get off the ground, and I said "Honey, I accidentally created this Fox show," and she said great. She completely got it because it was completely organic. It was the next thing—you couldn't deny it. When an idea comes that fast and that fully you don't ever say no.

The bathroom trip that changed Joss Whedon's life.
[Laughs] I hate to say it, but occasionally there have been some inspirational bathroom trips. Or if I am at a restaurant with the writers, and they go, and when they come back and have figured it out. I think it's just getting a moment to yourself. Though, we have to stress it's not the act of going to the bathroom…that's not good! That's not what it is.

I wanted to ask about the timing of this. This is being announced a day or two before the writers strike. How will this affect the show?
All of this happened before the strike. They had to make my deal, and you can't say anything until the deal is done. Eliza has been sitting on this for a month, and it all happened in a week. We had lunch, and a few days later I wrote a treatment, and then I wrote an episode guide, a pilot outline and even a poster. I PhotoShopped a poster one night. A couple days after that I went to Fox, and a couple days after they gave us the seven. Eliza and I were dying to get onto the Internet or do something, and everyone was like, there's no deal yet so you can't say anything. So, by the time comes now, when they finally close the deal, there is no more writing involved.

Wait, what? You mean all seven scripts have been written?
No, no—are you kidding? I didn't spend that much time in the bathroom. All seven scripts have been pitched, all stories have been pitched.

So, if the strike were to take place, it would delay the project…
This would delay everything. This is certainly no exception to anything. The strike has to happen. I wish it didn't, but it has to, and it has to go on for as long as it has to. When that is done, this will start and a few months after that, we will be filming. If there were no strike, we would be looking at something like February.

So you support the strike?
I will be busy picketing. I support the guild, and I think what we are doing is unfortunate, but necessary, and that means I don't get to have my fun but that isn't the point. It is classic for me, by the way, to be going, "Yes! New show! With Eliza!" But...Strike.

This will give your fans a light at the end of the tunnel in the event of a strike.
If they feel they are getting comfortable with their routine of reality television let them know about this. It's going to be really cool. It is freaking nuts to be doing a show with Eliza, but it just feels great.

Do you think any Buffy people might come on the show or do you think you are going to try to separate?
I think it's important to separate, but if you have somebody who can do the job that is the person you should hire. When it comes to the first flush, I think it's important to be a step forward, and not a reunion. We aren't playing games. I never rule anybody out, but my first instinct is to try out new people because it is me and Eliza.

I have to tell you this is like Christmas for Buffy fans. They have been waiting for you to come back to television so we have this news tonight, and we have your Office episode tomorrow night, it's like this perfect storm of a Whedonverse holiday.
If it was six more things, it would be Chanukah. I'll work on that.

ELIZA DUSHKU

Congrats on the show—this is so exciting. First off, how did it come about?
It was the best scenario. Basically, I went in with Peter [Chernin] and all the heads over at Fox, and they really honestly and really confidently told me that they wanted me to come in as a producer and an actress. They told me to bring them the material that in my heart, I wanted to do.

So, I sat on it for a couple of weeks, and I knew that Joss was working on other things, and his Wonder Woman stuff, but he's been a friend since I moved out here, when I was 17. He became my favorite writer/genius, and I've always said I'll follow that guy anywhere. So, I called him just to have coffee, and talk about life and what I was going to do with this deal. And we got to talking. He just gets women, which is the most amazing thing. He gets them, and I think that that was clear from all his past things, from Buffy.

He can use the science fiction, and he can use these metaphors or exaggerations—but he gets women, and he gets people. He gets down to the real human emotion and the real beating heart.

So, we talked about life, and we were telling each other crazy stories about the things we had done in the past time since we had talked, and the Internet and download that thing, and we talked about hunting, and that person with that fetish, and that thing we were trying to do, and that woman we knew, and that fear that we had, and all of the sudden, it was locked in, and the rest was history, and we have this crazy, exciting bomb-ass new show.

Are you already prepping to be Echo?
Yes, I'm already training and getting ready for it. I'll be a different Echo every week, which is great for my ADHD personality, it's truly—the stars aligned in this one, the timing, the people, the creative ability, the potential is really there. I can't wait for the fans to finally hear about it, because I've been asked about it for years, is there going to be a spinoff. Everything happens for a reason, and timing is just right here.

It sounds like you guys developed it together. Can you talk about how you came up with Echo, and the concept of the actual Dollhouse, and not just the show?
We did kind of come up with it together, and that's one of the cool things—I'll be one of the producers of the show and it's eventually kind of a story of my life. I've had kind of a crazy life, traveling around the world with my mother at a young age, going on these crazy trips and adventures, and then being in this business. It is the story of who I am, in this business especially, like the objectification of people, and who people want to make other people into, and people clicking a button and thinking they can make something happen.

We have so much control in this day and age with the Internet and television and what we want and our desires and fantasies and thinking we can make them come true. And all of this, I think, just makes this such a smart concept, because it's all infiltrated in there, and it's part me and it's part the world. It's part people's fantasies, people's demons, their high times, their low times, their hilarious times and in between, mixed with—I gotta have some serious action, because that's just, like, I realized that a procedural show isn't right for me. I need to be jumping out of a car or kicking butt or making love.

It sounds like you'll get to do all of that with this. Another thing I liked about the pitch was that there's a whole bunch of you, you're all in this dollhouse, and you're all trying to find each other one way or the other. Can you talk about other parts, other casting? Anything like that yet?
Yeah, we have, and it's nice, again, that we kind of have similar tastes. I think that we all know, we can kind of see it and feel it and taste it, and it's just kind of about putting it together, and getting the orchestra and getting all the variables into the equation. But we're both major fans of some of the previous people that we've worked with in other shows, and we also have writers from Buffy that are going to be coming over and joining us. It's just going to be—it's gonna be fun to watch I think. Because I think people are going to be excited at what we have.

Everyone is super-super-excited I guarantee you; I squealed.
The Red Sox won the World Series again, and things are good—I have my boy [Brad Penny], and he's going to be playing baseball for Fox next year, and I'll be here shooting my show for Fox. It's all gonna be good.
Other stories here and here and here and here.

Well, I'm still waiting for Ripper to come to be. And would have loved to see a Faith spin-off, which I assume is completely dead. Of course, my truest desire would have been an announcement of a new Firefly project, preferably the resumption of the show, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't very, very excited. This season has been an almost complete flop of new shows, Veronica Mars isn't around anymore, and Battlestar Galactica will soon begin its final season. Joss to the rescue...

Willravel 10-31-2007 07:22 PM

OH THAT'S WHAT HE'S WORKING ON. Everyone said it was Firefly.

I'll watch.

squeeeb 10-31-2007 08:51 PM

i bet it's gonna be really good and get cancelled after the 7th show, or it will suck and last 3 seasons....i'll still watch it...

Charlatan 11-01-2007 05:08 AM

Bring it on...

Redlemon 11-01-2007 05:52 AM

The title got my heart racing, but I had a little bit of dread, which came true when I saw that three letter word: FOX. There's a very common phrase on the TiVo boards, which is "Burn in hell, FOX!". There have been far too many quality programs dumped too early by that network.

guthmund 11-01-2007 11:59 AM

Same here. The Fox connection has me a bit leery...

That and Eliza Dushku. :sad:

Frosstbyte 11-01-2007 02:12 PM

I have full confidence in a Whedon-Dushku alliance, but I cannot BELIEVE he's entrusting another creation to the fuckstains at Fox. The potential brilliance of the show is outweighed only by the potentially immediate cancellation order from a network that hates shows that don't have immediate returns. With our luck, they'll show episode 7 first opposite the Super Bowl (yeah I know Fox is showing the SB, but they'll figure it out) and then wonder why people don't keep tuning in and why they don't have an immediate audience.

I'm not sure what other network would be any better, but Fox's track record is...shall we say...not good.

xxxafterglow 11-01-2007 02:21 PM

Thanks for posting that! Funny, I was just reading through the very thorough Buffy episode caps on Wikipedia.

I'm a bit leery of Eliza as well but hopefully she has expanded her acting range.

Still, something to look forward to... that and buying the big Buffy DVD set.

Willow: I think we have Dracula factoids.
Xander: Like any of that's enough to fight the Dark Master (beat as everyone looks at him) bator
...........
Xander: I think you're drawing a lot of crazy conclusions about the Unholy Prince! (beat as everyone looks at him) bator

hagatha 11-02-2007 08:08 AM

I will definitely check it out, but part of me feels like maybe Joss's best days are behind him. And am I the only one who thinks Eliza's acting skills are pretty much unidimensional?

flat5 11-20-2007 04:46 PM

..

blahblah454 11-24-2007 11:13 AM

I don't know who Eliza Dushku is so I google imaged her... one of the first things to come up was some fat dude fucking a chick, not what I wanted to see.

I have only seen a few episodes of buffy but I loved Firefly.

LuxoDave 11-24-2007 03:18 PM

I automatically season pass all Joss Whedon shows. :)

El Pollo 11-27-2007 06:08 PM

I'm not too crazy about the concept for the show. But then again, I wasn't crazy about the concepts for Buffy, Angel, and Firefly and I wuickly fell in love with those shows. So, yeah, I'll be checking it out.

guy44 05-15-2008 04:52 PM

So I thought it was time for an omnibus update on Dollhouse as more info about the show has been released lately:

1. It will begin in January, on Monday nights, as the show leading in to 24. It has a 13-episode buy already. Also, Fox is desperate to reinvigorate the moribund TV industry, and will therefore air Dollhouse (as well as next season's other major-name series on Fox, J.J. Abrams' Fringe) with half as many commercials as other shows get.

2. The show has been cast (actually, they just finished shooting the pilot). Here is the cast list:

Eliza Dushku
Tahmoh Penikett
Fran Kranz
Dichen Lachman
Enver Gjokaj
Olivia Williams
Harry J. Lennix

And Joss Whedon also announced on Whedonesque who the first recurring roles will be played by:

Amy Acker
Miracle Laurie

You may remember Tahmoh Penikett from his role as Helo in Battlestar Galactica, Olivia Williams from Rushmore (and being incredibly beautiful), Harry Lennix from the last two Matrix movies, and Amy Acker from Joss Whedon's Angel, of course.

3. Here are the first publicity stills:

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/arti...5092854571.jpg

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/arti...5092853634.jpg

http://tvmedia.ign.com/tv/image/arti...5092855774.jpg

4. The Trailer!



5. OK, there is no 5. I'm just really, really excited after seeing that trailer. This looks like it'll be Joss Whedon-ey heaven, at least until Fox tries to throw Paris Hilton in as a guest star or something.

MexicanOnABike 05-15-2008 06:51 PM

looks interesting. but the video is dead. :(

sapiens 05-15-2008 07:24 PM

I enjoy Joss Whedon shows, especially Firefly, but I am having trouble getting excited by a show starring Eliza Dushku. I have not been impressed by her acting in the shows and movies I have seen her in.

guy44 05-15-2008 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MexicanOnABike
looks interesting. but the video is dead. :(

Yeah, apparently Fox didn't want that video out quite so early. Lucky for us, though, the internets rulz all!

Check out the trailer .

jewels 05-16-2008 03:23 AM

The trailer reminds me of The Pretender. :confused:

Redlemon 05-16-2008 04:59 AM


m0rpheus 05-19-2008 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guy44
Joss Whedon is returning to TV with a new show. Summary: he's developing it with Fox, has seven guaranteed episodes, and it will star Eliza Dushku.

Joss Whedon and Fox. Two words (okay three) that scare the living shit out of me. Why? Because odds are good I'm going to watch Dollhouse, and love it. Then Fox will cancel it.

guthmund 05-19-2008 01:34 PM

Christ...

Dushku and Helo?

/bangs head against the desk

Maybe not so bad...I don't like SMG too much either and yet I kind of dig Buffy....

guy44 02-14-2009 01:00 PM

Dollhouse finally premiered last night. My early thoughts: Good, not great.

The Bad:

Whedon's signature dialogue was missing, which may or may not be a feature instead of a bug. I guess we'll see.

The show was very...slick. In that overproduced, Fox Network kind of way. Which worries me, because I know how Fox likes to have all their shows be shiny and shallow and that Whedon likes them to be, you know, good, and that there's already been substantial disagreement between the two. Hopefully, the show thrives anyway and Whedon will be allowed to do whatever he wants but with a massive budget.

Eliza Dushku was alright, but I need to see more out of her in the future. This show was literally created to display her acting chops, and she needs to step it up a bit. That said, Whedon's gotten fantastic performances out of some pretty shitty actors (Sarah Michelle Gellar, anyone?), so it isn't out of the realm of possibility.

I hate straight-jacketing shows to be more "stand-alone" and less serialized. I'm a massive geek, and I love to delve into a huge and uncompromisingly intimidating mythology, which is part of why I love Joss Whedon shows. No human being could pick up Angel or Buffy smoothly by season 3 or 4. Fox clearly hates this, and may force the show to be too one-off for my tastes.

The Good:

The show was action-packed, sexy, complex and complicated, touched upon a huge range of moral and ethical questions, and still managed to get out an ass-load of exposition. In other words, it many ways it was a typical Whedon series premiere.

Whedon's shows tend to get better and better over the first 5 or 6 episodes, as he has to explain the basics of his always complicated fictional universe less-and-less. Huge amounts of exposition is the curse of sci-fi/fantasy TV, and things tend to look much better after that initial awkward phase is dealt with.

The set looks simply incredible.

Olivia Williams and Amy Acker. Oh yes.

The show is clearly bursting at the seams with possibility. The cast is really, really talented (Harry Lennox, anyone) and the show's very premise allows it to stretch in many different interesting directions. So long as Fox doesn't, you know, do anything to it, and enough people watch despite Fox putting into a Friday death slot, Dollhouse could really go places.


I can't wait to see what happens from here.

P.S. Dollhouse, Friday Night Lights, Psych, Battlestar Galactica, and Terminator: TSCC are all on Friday nights right now. How come Fridays have better shows than the rest of the week put together?

Reese 02-14-2009 04:14 PM

I highly doubt Joss Whedon will let this become a bunch of stand alone episodes. I thought the first episode was too stand alone-ish but hopefully it was just to give you an idea of what they do at the dollhouse. We'll see what the next few episodes bring... Apparently it didn't have many viewers.. sad because it does have potential.

Willravel 02-14-2009 05:33 PM

Despite what I see as a strong and engaging format, the Dollhouse series premier had really bad ratings.
'Dollhouse' premieres soft; 'Terminator' dives--The Live Feed

It's frustrating.

Charlatan 02-14-2009 06:35 PM

I've heard that the series gets rolling at ep 5 (written by Wedon).

fresnelly 02-14-2009 07:48 PM

It put me to mind of shows like Charlie's Angels and Remington Steele but I enjoyed it well enough and will keep watching. Initially it had a Cinemax Soft-Core kind of vibe (how many times will she be going under cover as a stripper, prosititute, model, portrait-photograher I wonder...) but then gained its edge over the course of the Kidnapping plotline.

You could also see the groundwork being laid for the series arc so I look forward to that.

Frosstbyte 02-14-2009 07:53 PM

Having just re-watched the beginning of BtVS, I can't say Dollhouse was any better or any worse, really. It has potential, for sure, and could make for an interesting series, but....9 PM on Friday night is fucking murder. I hope they take into consideration the number of people who watch it on demand and on DVR at this point, too, since I imagine it'll get a lot of viewership from people that way.

Just gonna have to see....

guy44 02-14-2009 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fresnelly (Post 2595620)
Initially it had a Cinemax Soft-Core kind of vibe (how many times will she be going under cover as a stripper, prosititute, model, portrait-photograher I wonder...)

Joss Whedon is famously a strong feminist and has been quoted as saying that he's not going to shy away from the reality that an "active" would likely be hired out often for sexual reasons. He also said he's going to deal head-on with all that implies. I guess we'll see.

m0rpheus 02-15-2009 07:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2595584)
Despite what I see as a strong and engaging format, the Dollhouse series premier had really bad ratings.
'Dollhouse' premieres soft; 'Terminator' dives--The Live Feed

It's frustrating.

Maybe it would have helped if they even advertised it was coming. Hell I forgot it was starting this week. Shit. Hopefully I can find the first episode before next week.

guy44 02-15-2009 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0rpheus (Post 2595754)
Maybe it would have helped if they even advertised it was coming. Hell I forgot it was starting this week. Shit. Hopefully I can find the first episode before next week.


Frosstbyte 02-15-2009 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m0rpheus (Post 2595754)
Maybe it would have helped if they even advertised it was coming. Hell I forgot it was starting this week. Shit. Hopefully I can find the first episode before next week.

You must not have watched Fox at all this week. There were Dollhouse/Terminator commercials on during almost every commercial break.

m0rpheus 02-16-2009 04:57 PM

I was busy last week and didn't really watch that much TV but before last week? Nothin I can remember.

exizldelfuego 02-17-2009 04:03 PM

Whoa, Dichen Lachman? Talk about exotic…how’ve I never heard of her?

777 02-19-2009 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2595584)
Despite what I see as a strong and engaging format, the Dollhouse series premier had really bad ratings.
'Dollhouse' premieres soft; 'Terminator' dives--The Live Feed

It's frustrating.

Well, it's a tough fight for ratings when the show is on Friday nights...

Frosstbyte 02-24-2009 10:48 AM

I think the problem with this show so far is that it's all potential and little payoff. The writing has been very weak compared to previous Whedon outings and Dushku hasn't been on her game. These facts have only been emphasized by the fact that I'm currently re-watching Buffy. It's apparent that Whedon can get good performances out of her, but so far there just hasn't been any meat or spunk to the character. For that matter, basically none of the characters have had a lot of meat or spunk so far.

As I said, there's a lot of potential, and I'm worried that it's not going to get to develop enough for that potential to turn into something before Fox pulls the plug.

Cynthetiq 02-24-2009 11:46 PM

2nd episode was much better than the opener. The mythos is being laid out, and the antagonists are being fleshed out.

It's been interesting but the dialog and whedon writing isn't up to par. I'm game for a while longer and it doesn't interfere with anything else on the Tivo.

guy44 02-26-2009 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2600567)
2nd episode was much better than the opener. The mythos is being laid out, and the antagonists are being fleshed out.

It's been interesting but the dialog and whedon writing isn't up to par. I'm game for a while longer and it doesn't interfere with anything else on the Tivo.

I agree completely. Whedon shows always had a very unique quality to them, a writing style and (especially) dialogue that seemed to come from another, slightly awesomer and funnier, dimension. For the most part, that quality has been lacking. Of course, it's only 2 eps in, and there was that great line about "4 brothers, none of them Democrats."

I'm still really hopeful.

sapiens 02-26-2009 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte (Post 2600237)
I think the problem with this show so far is that it's all potential and little payoff. The writing has been very weak compared to previous Whedon outings and Dushku hasn't been on her game. These facts have only been emphasized by the fact that I'm currently re-watching Buffy. It's apparent that Whedon can get good performances out of her, but so far there just hasn't been any meat or spunk to the character. For that matter, basically none of the characters have had a lot of meat or spunk so far.

I've never been impressed by Dushku's acting, even on Buffy. She doesn't have much range. Her role on Dollhouse seems like it would be better suited for a good character actor. I did like the second episodemore than the first, but that may have been because Dushku didn't have much dialogue.

Another thought: Dushku's character is effectively a slave who gets attacked and raped nearly every episode. A bit disturbing.

SecretMethod70 02-27-2009 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens (Post 2601284)
Another thought: Dushku's character is effectively a slave who gets attacked and raped nearly every episode. A bit disturbing.

This is my main problem with the show. It's not that I have a problem watching disturbing stories. One of my favorite movies (Irréversible) has a terribly raw and gut-wrenching 9 minute long rape scene with no cuts. The difference between that and the scenes in Dollhouse is that Irréversible respects the gravity of what it is showing. Watching someone who has no real control over their actions get pimped out and raped and then have their knowledge of the event wiped away should not be filmed as a "sexy" scene. There is nothing "sexy" about watching Dushku's character have sex with these clients. She's very attractive, and under any other circumstances I'd certainly enjoy watching her be scantily dressed and in sex scenes. But these scenes should not be filmed like any standard old TV sex scene - and they are. So what's disturbing to me is not the subject manner, but the presentation - because that presentation has little to no relevance to what's going on.

Cynthetiq 02-27-2009 11:34 AM

While I agree with you for the most part, maybe that's what will fuel her to turn into another kind of Alpha. She's obviously gaining some sort of recognition as to something isn't right.

Whedon isn't an idiot, I'm sure he's going to use that device in some manner to turn and burn the character.

Just like she's having flashbacks to the past, maybe she's going to have flashbacks to clients. And get fucking pissed off....

Note that Amy Acker is just a guest star... maybe she's going to get knocked off. I also can't see her sticking around with all that make up appliances every week, but who knows, it worked for ST: TNG and DS9

SecretMethod70 02-27-2009 11:58 AM

Basically, I agree with the concept, and I think it could go somewhere interesting like you propose... I just don't like watching the scenes and having the sensory dissonance where I know they want me to be enjoying watching Dushku in a sex scene (you can't argue that they're not filmed to be titillating) yet instead I'm revolted by the fact that this character is being raped before my eyes and the cinematographer/producer/director don't seem to appreciate that fact.

For the story, I think it could be great and interesting. I just don't think it's handled well on the technical side of things. I'll give them that it probably can't be handled appropriately on network TV, but that's no excuse to treat it like any regular sex scene.

---

On a different topic, I also think this show concept has limited life. To be done well, I think it should be 2, absolute max 3 network TV seasons. Of course, that's also just a personal preference. I enjoy shows a lot more than have fewer episodes per season and/or shorter life spans. They tend to have tighter plot focus.

sapiens 02-27-2009 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SecretMethod70 (Post 2601848)
Basically, I agree with the concept, and I think it could go somewhere interesting like you propose... I just don't like watching the scenes and having the sensory dissonance where I know they want me to be enjoying watching Dushku in a sex scene (you can't argue that they're not filmed to be titillating) yet instead I'm revolted by the fact that this character is being raped before my eyes and the cinematographer/producer/director don't seem to appreciate that fact.

Yes, that's what I was thinking. The creators don't present the rape and abuse in a way that expresses the gravity of the rape and abuse. The viewer isn't at all challenged. It's presented in the same manner that a normal sex scene in bad television is often presented.
Quote:

For the story, I think it could be great and interesting. I just don't think it's handled well on the technical side of things. I'll give them that it probably can't be handled appropriately on network TV, but that's no excuse to treat it like any regular sex scene.
Good point. I can't imagine network television handling the frequent rape with an appropriate tone.

Cynthetiq 02-27-2009 12:24 PM

but that's the crux of this... she's not really being raped. she's consenting. the premise for the consent is flawed, but at the time of the act, she's consenting.

RetroGunslinger 02-27-2009 12:44 PM

I'm going to give it the season. Sure, Firefly did well with just one season (it wasn't enough to quench my thirst, but it was amazing), but Buffy is arguably Joss' best show and frankly, the first season wasn't that great. By the time it was done however, I was addicted. If Joss and crew can create some new twist midway through, I believe this could be a pretty nice ride.

Besides, the second episode--despite a simple, not-too-original premise--was a pretty big jump up in script quality and cracked open enough doors to make me believe this could be something exciting and addictive. We'll see.

And besides all that, if Sarah Connor can get a second season, so should this.

sapiens 02-27-2009 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2601863)
but that's the crux of this... she's not really being raped. she's consenting. the premise for the consent is flawed, but at the time of the act, she's consenting.

I don't see how a person being neurologically manipulated can be consenting. Isn't it akin to drugging and then having sex with a person?

ratbastid 02-27-2009 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens (Post 2601888)
I don't see how a person being neurologically manipulated can be consenting. Isn't it akin to drugging and then having sex with a person?

Well, see, it brings up all sorts of questions about identity. Inside the Dollhouse (as they've pointed out to the point of absurdity), Echo isn't even a person. She's an empty shell. When she's on assignment, then... who is she? Is she the implant? Or is she some former human that once inhabited those neurons?

It's a thorny question. The FBI guy (who I can't help but call "Hilo") seems to think that the proto-Echo person is a victim of the evil Dollhouse wranglers. But Echo almost certainly wouldn't think so.

And remember the first scene of the pilot--with Echo (except she was called, I think, Caroline?) sitting across from Ms. Whatsit (the Brit who runs the place). In that scene, it's clear she made a conscious, well-informed decision to put herself in the Dollhouse. Given that, you'd have to say she consented to just about anything her physical person would be subjected to.

Cynthetiq 02-27-2009 01:45 PM

It could be that exactly.

But that's the premise that is flawed. It's just like brainwashing someone ala Patty Hearst.

sapiens 02-27-2009 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid (Post 2601897)
Well, see, it brings up all sorts of questions about identity. Inside the Dollhouse (as they've pointed out to the point of absurdity), Echo isn't even a person. She's an empty shell. When she's on assignment, then... who is she? Is she the implant? Or is she some former human that once inhabited those neurons?

They imply that she is not an empty shell, that she still possesses some semblance of her original identity.

Quote:

And remember the first scene of the pilot--with Echo (except she was called, I think, Caroline?) sitting across from Ms. Whatsit (the Brit who runs the place). In that scene, it's clear she made a conscious, well-informed decision to put herself in the Dollhouse. Given that, you'd have to say she consented to just about anything her physical person would be subjected to.
From the scene you reference, it seemed more like she had limited choice and was unable to give informed consent.

ratbastid 02-27-2009 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens (Post 2601909)
From the scene you reference, it seemed more like she had limited choice and was unable to give informed consent.

I don't know about that. She obviously wasn't happy about it. But "actions have consequences", she said at the end of the scene. I think she had to know what she was getting into, and was clear the trade-off she was making.

Frosstbyte 02-27-2009 03:57 PM

Not gonna lie, guys, if you want to get caught up in whether she's being "raped" and didn't consent, I think you should probably pass on this show.

You are certainly supposed to be uncomfortable with the fact that these people are imprinted shells, but that first scene shows without question that she made a choice to enter the program in exchange for...well, we don't know yet. I'm sure they made quite clear the kinds of things that would happen to her if she entered the dollhouse, and, while she might have liked the alternative to joining even less (if you want to call it a forced choice, fine) that doesn't change the fact that she chose to do so.

SecretMethod70 02-27-2009 04:36 PM

Actions have consequences...

When someone does something knowing the consequence could be getting killed by the mob, and then accepts that inevitable consequence when it comes (does not put up a fight), does that become suicide just because they submit to their lack of real choice?

The Dollhouse is clearly an illegal organization which corners these people into this "consequence" as the result of some predicament they're in. As she also says in that opening scene, "I don't have a choice, do I?" Clearly not consent.

It's true that the personalities which inhabit Echo's body are consenting to their actions, but we as the audience know that Caroline is not. The presentation ought to acknowledge that rather than try to titillate the viewer.

Cynthetiq 02-27-2009 04:43 PM

maybe that will be how the series unfolds, making the sex scenes become more uncomfortable... we'll see what happens tonight.

sapiens 02-27-2009 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2601984)
maybe that will be how the series unfolds, making the sex scenes become more uncomfortable... we'll see what happens tonight.

Now THAT would be interesting....Lulling people into appreciating typical sex in a television show and then showing that the sex (that they enjoyed watching) was not consensual.

Frosstbyte 02-27-2009 08:05 PM

"I don't have a choice" doesn't mean "I don't have a choice." It means, "You're giving me an option I dislike, but my alternative is even worse." I read that first scene to mean that Caroline's alternatives were death or lifetime imprisonment or exile and that if she agreed to do five years with the Dollhouse, she'd avoid those consequences entirely.

Again, I think you have to run with this as part of the premise. She's there because she understood what would happen to her and decided it would still be better than the alternative. I think as Echo "awakes" we'll gradually get less comfortable with what the Dollhouse does to people, even though it's the core of the show. But I wouldn't expect that it will occur in the form of "ewwww she's really being raped isn't that terrible?!?" kinds of stuff.

Edit: For clarity, I don't think the Dollhouse caused the duress. If someone is pointing a gun at you and says "do this or I will shoot you" then you don't have any choice. I think the Dollhouse was an option given by them to avoid duress coming from another source, hence why I think there is ample consent. I could find myself entirely wrong.

guy44 02-28-2009 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte (Post 2601957)
Not gonna lie, guys, if you want to get caught up in whether she's being "raped" and didn't consent, I think you should probably pass on this show.

I disagree...I think one of the main themes of the show is consent/control over your own life, and Whedon very explicitly wants the issue of rape to be part of this. Dollhouse is all about questioning the nature of identity, willpower, control over one's life, memory, etc., and this is one (important) part of that discussion.

It's not like this is an original conceit - it's a sci-fi classic. Think Blade Runner or, if we're onto the question of identity/memory/sexual consent, Jude Law's character in A.I. I'm sure there are a million other examples people can think of.

Edit: And now that I think about it, it isn't like this is the first time Whedon has tread these waters. Think of the Season Six Buffy episode where the Trio brainwash Warren's old girlfriend and basically attempt to rape her. In Firefly, issues of consent and responsibility are brought up repeatedly for Inara, the geisha-like 'Companion,' especially in the episode Heart of Gold. Hell, even the very first Angel episode featured a brilliant metaphor for the 'casting couch' when a powerful, rich vampire lures Cordelia to his mansion with a promise to make her a star. The difference with Dollhouse is that these issues are much more central than with his other shows.

telekinetic 02-28-2009 10:57 AM

http://penny-arcade.com/images/2009/20090227.jpg

Cynthetiq 02-28-2009 11:02 AM

why are they looking up at his nutsack be it stamos or whedon????

Frosstbyte 02-28-2009 07:22 PM

I thought last night's episode was better, again, than previously. More snappy dialogue, better use and abuse of the Active concept. I think that PA may be a little fatalistic, since even if it's not as great as other Whedon stuff, it's still better than most of the stuff on TV these days. I just hope the trend continues.

guy44, I guess my point is that there's a difference between seeing that as part of the concept of the show and trying to screw down if she's "consented to having sex with people" and/or if we should be forced to be uncomfortable with that instead of titillated. I think there is a meaningful difference with being currently uncomfortable with the notion of the Dollhouse while still going witht he show and not enjoying the ride because you're so worried about the fact that it's not showing the lack of consent in a more disturbing light.

Cynthetiq 02-28-2009 07:25 PM

3rd episode was interesting.

The idea that she went "off mission" or did she rides close to the very idea of what we are talking about. It really depends on the point of view and reference.

Dialogue was much better, some really good lines.

guy44 02-28-2009 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frosstbyte (Post 2602550)
guy44, I guess my point is that there's a difference between seeing that as part of the concept of the show and trying to screw down if she's "consented to having sex with people" and/or if we should be forced to be uncomfortable with that instead of titillated. I think there is a meaningful difference with being currently uncomfortable with the notion of the Dollhouse while still going witht he show and not enjoying the ride because you're so worried about the fact that it's not showing the lack of consent in a more disturbing light.

I think I see where you're coming from. This discussion reminds me of the film Funny Games, which is basically a horror film designed entirely around the idea that the audience should be discomfited by the thought that they go to see people suffer horribly in movies for entertainment.

...FWIW, I think this ep was better than the pilot but a step down from last week's. Eliza Dushku herself is telling people that the first five episodes are more or less stand-alones designed to allow anyone to start watching (at the insistence of Fox), but that beginning in episode six Whedon's voice starts becoming much clearer and it begins to resemble his previous shows more.

Cynthetiq 02-28-2009 10:03 PM

Interesting that NYTimes has an article this week about something about memory and losing your identity for a short period of time.
Quote:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/01/ny...pagewanted=all

“It’s weird,” Ms. Upp said a few weeks ago over a cup of tea in a Hell’s Kitchen cafe, the first time in the five months since her rescue that she had talked publicly about her experience. “How do you feel guilty for something you didn’t even know you did? It’s not your fault, but it’s still somehow you. So it’s definitely made me reconsider everything. Who was I before? Who was I then — is that part of me? Who am I now?”

Frosstbyte 02-28-2009 10:12 PM

Interesting you bring that up. I really disliked Funny Games, and I imagine that if Dollhouse tries to really drive the wedge in the same way the movie did, I'd probably start to like it less, too.

777 03-06-2009 10:13 PM

Hey, did anyone catch those moments at the end of the last 2 episodes?

At the end of the second one, after the head of security goes off on a rant about how people keep dieing around Echo, she slaps her shoulder the way her date taught her too.

And at the end of the 3rd, Seira has this bright smile as she eyes Echo across the room and walks toward her. Only to be shot down as Echo gives a disaproving shake of the head. What was that about?!

Cynthetiq 03-06-2009 10:21 PM

I believe that it is a nod to the fact that she is "remembering" things even after she's been wiped...

777 03-06-2009 10:35 PM

Look what I stumbled upon (no pun intended) while visiting Hulu:

Hulu Blog Dollhouse's Joss Whedon Answers Your Questions

And the video that's on the page is the first episode of Dollhouse, which I'm sure we've all seen by now.

Here's a good one:

Quote:

Adelle's mentioned that Echo is highly requested among Actives. Why is that? — Jennifer

She's got that spark that no one else has. We call it the "She's Eliza Dushku, For god's Sake" factor.

Joss Whedon


Zeraph 03-07-2009 09:49 AM

I love Whedon. Watched the first couple episodes but it just didn't hook me. I'll check back in again with the show after a season.

Frosstbyte 03-07-2009 08:07 PM

I would guess you'll just miss the show, then, zeraph. Unless something crazy happens in the next few weeks, this one's probably going on a long walk off a short pier. Ratings continue to be...poor.

SecretMethod70 03-09-2009 07:12 PM

A painfully honest review of the latest episode by Den of Geek:
Quote:

Dollhouse has a toneless hour when it really needed a colourful one...

Published on Mar 9, 2009

The fourth episode of Dollhouse is called Gray Hour, and watching it, I started to get annoyed that this show hasn’t yet kicked the tyres and lit the fires, so to speak. I so wanted to like Dollhouse because of its creative heritage, but so far the only similarity between this and the best of Buffy and Firefly is the running time.

It didn’t really help that the whole story this week is encapsulated by two really stupid plot points that could only be attributed to sloppy writing at best. The story starts with Echo being a midwife on top of a mountain! WTF? I know medical insurance isn’t cheap, but that is the lamest excuse for erasing a person’s brain I can come up with! Surely if it was important, you wouldn’t subject a pregnant women and unborn child to the blood pressure and oxygen deficit issues associated with high attitude? Plain stupid.

Then we move to Eliza Dushku playing a hooker, again. I didn’t buy that in the first episode, but it seems to be a personal fantasy of the Dollhouse creative team, so they keep doing it repeatedly.

Except this time she’s faking err…faking, and she’s actually an expert thief intent on getting two criminals and an antiquities expert into a secret vault beneath the hotel she’s flaunting herself about.

From this point things go well until they actually get into the vault, and the antiquities expert takes a very small piece of the Elgin Marbles (the person who wrote this bit has obviously never seen them…) and locks Echo and the two bag men inside the vault.

They’ve got 30 minutes to get out, before the security in the building is aware of them, conveniently. There are two complications. The first is that the rat that ran off with the statue stabbed one of the men. And just to make things really fun, Echo has a phone call that alters everything. She’s telling Boyd what’s happened, when the sound of an analogue modem interrupts, and amazingly resets her memory to blank.

Oops. Now these two men are trapped in a vault with Echo the expert in blank pages, and not ‘Taffy’ the criminal mastermind.

It’s obviously the work of renegade Alpha, but it takes them at least another 25 minutes for the Dollhouse team to work that out. In the meanwhile, they give Sierra the same imprint they gave the first Echo to try and get her out.

Much happens that is of little consequence, and then the alarms go off, bringing a small army of security guards down on them. Cue the second WTF moment!

A gun fight breaks out, at which point the stabbed guy fishes out a smoke grenade he picked up earlier and they both use the ‘cover’ to entirely escape. I thought I’d tuned out for a moment or something, but on rewind, no, it was that simple to get past all the guards. Did the last page of this script read ‘we build to an exciting escape... if anyone can think one up on the day we shoot it'?

This show needs to cut out the terminally dumb stuff, and get so much more interesting at least two episodes ago. I’m bored with everyone other than Echo and Boyd being bad guys, and I’m bored waiting for her to run into Agent Ballard, and I’m bored with the adolescent Eliza Dushku sex fantasies, and I’m bored not seeing Alpha’s face. I’m bored, and I’m getting progressively more bored with each episode.

I think it needs to get to the point, before it’s too late for there to be one to Dollhouse.

sadistikdreams 03-09-2009 08:34 PM

I'm actually not a Joss Whedon fan, mainly because I'm pissed off that Firefly got Dark Angel cancelled.

Although, it's pretty intriguing. I mean, the concept. In practice, it's kind of.... eeh. Not as satisfying as I though it'd be. But it's still a fun show. Especially when you put it after TSCC.

Frosstbyte 03-10-2009 01:10 AM

Never actually found someone who was a fan of Dark Angel. Wow. I always thought that show only stayed on for as long as it did because it starred Jessica Alba and had James Cameron throwing money at it. I would take Firefly every day of the week.

Dunno, I think that review is unfortunately pretty accurate. They need to get to the Joss episodes and fast, because it's not looking up for this latest venture of his. I'm hoping six is everything they say it is.

TSCC is another question entirely. I think it's really spectacularly subtle, but I don't think it's giving enough people what they expected and is suffering for it. The show is way creepier and more cerebral than anything else in the Terminator series. Losing your timeslot to 24 probably didn't help either. Curse Fox putting my sweet sci-fi shows on Friday night and curse them for not counting DVR towards ratings.

Reese 03-10-2009 01:48 AM

I liked Dark angel. Then again, I watched the entire series in a span of a week so even if there were a few disappointing episodes I soon passed them and was on to better, more memorable episodes. I just hate that it didn't get a finale.

I am still watching Dollhouse. It gives me something to watch on my DVR while BSG is recording. I really can't get into the stand alone episodes. It's like I'm watching just to see the 2 minutes of story of Helo, I mean Paul looking for the Dollhouse. We also get the tiny bits of relationship forming between the mind wiped Sierra and Echo but it's so little that I'd rather just wait for these so called good episodes that Joss and Eliza keep talking about and figure out what's going on then.

Cynthetiq 03-16-2009 08:43 AM

this past episode was interesting. the idea that victor is stimulated by another while in dollhouse state shows that their system is cracking or at least isn't known as to what and where the human begins and ends.

the dialogue was much better this go round too, with the man response and topher's reaction to the victor's erection was humorous. Spoiler: They other guy, I don't know why or how he showed up but I don't get why he didn't just finish it if that's his intention. There was little to nothing to stop him.

Willravel 03-20-2009 09:22 PM

I wish the whole series was as interesting as tonight's episode.

SecretMethod70 03-21-2009 12:08 AM

It's getting better, but this past episode was billed as a game-changer and it was far from that. Spoiler: And making Agent Ballard's neighbor an "active" was predictable in the worst way. The kind of predictable where you can totally see it coming but you really hope you're wrong, only to find out you're not.

guy44 03-21-2009 01:06 PM

Oh, I disagree. I loved the episode. Spoiler: I like how Patton Oswald(!) destroyed Ballard's holier-than-thou persona in like two seconds, I like how Oswald displayed how the purpose behind the Dolls can be sweet and really fucking wrong at the same time, I like the action sequences, I like the twist about how Sierra's handler was raping her, I like that the fact that these people are basically constantly being raped was brought out into the open, and even though everyone already figured out that Millie was a sleeper I like how badassedly she took out the rapist guy.

And I didn't even mention the mole within the Dollhouse or Ballard losing his job or the finally excellent dialogue.


It's possible this episode isn't a game-changer, but it certainly could be.

777 03-21-2009 11:37 PM

Wow, they must have had extra help from the writing department, since the Jossy dialogue is in the Full Servive Station.

And the action wasn't bad this time around :) (Not like when we had the Gun Vs Bow face off).

Cynthetiq 03-22-2009 09:09 PM

I reminisced about Faith that last episode. It was much more fighting that Eliza was doing as Faith so it looked a bit more staged and blocked than from Buffy.

The episode was very interesting. Those that wondered just about the morality portion, it was finally addressed and in a very interesting way.

I hope that more episodes are like this in the future.

robot_parade 03-23-2009 08:38 PM

I agree, the last episode whipped out the awesome in a big way.

Am I the only one who completely missed that kaylee was a sleeper doll until it happened?

guy44 03-23-2009 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robot_parade (Post 2612809)
I agree, the last episode whipped out the awesome in a big way.

Am I the only one who completely missed that kaylee was a sleeper doll until it happened?

Kaylee is the sweet, loving mechanic on Firefly who pines after a doctor. Mellie, on the other hand, is the sweet, loving neighbor on Dollhouse who pines after an FBI agent. You may remember Willow from Buffy seasons 1 and 2 as the sweet, loving nerd who pines after Xander. Hell, even on Angel, sweet, loving Fred pined after Angel at first. As much as I love Joss Whedon's work, he does have his archetypes.

Locobot 03-25-2009 09:49 AM

Quote:

Spoiler: And I didn't even mention the mole within the Dollhouse or Ballard losing his job or the finally excellent dialogue.

Spoiler:

Ballard is suspended, not yet fired. You can be sure that his involvement with the FBI isn't yet over. The mole dialogue was a feint planted by DeWitt.

Yep, episode six was pretty great; lots of storylines coming to a head, twists, and the morality of each character was brought into question. Aside from the Dolls, there isn't a character without questionable motives. As far as I know there isn't a show on right now with this level of complexity or moral ambiguity. Add in Wheadon's penchant for peppering in incredibly lascivious situations and dialogue without being explicit and I'm hooked.

Taja 03-29-2009 04:22 PM

I'm absolutely THRILLED to see that Alan Tudyk is going to play Alpha!

... then again
... is anyone else having trouble imagining Wash as Alpha?? :D

m0rpheus 03-30-2009 10:34 AM

Tudyk is Alpha?? Really??? That is FUCKING AWESOME! Nope I don't have a problem seeing him as Alpha at all because it means more Tudyk written by Joss.

Cynthetiq 04-01-2009 01:12 AM

this last episode brought up the HOW she ended up signing up for the group, well based on the last few minutes of the episode.

the teaser for the following episdoe Dollhouse: The Awakening, that's got some promising twists.

guy44 04-05-2009 08:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taja (Post 2615978)
Spoiler: I'm absolutely THRILLED to see that Alan Tudyk is going to play Alpha!

... then again
... is anyone else having trouble imagining Wash as Alpha?? :D

Holy crap, put a spoiler tag around that! I did NOT want to know this ahead of time!

Jeez...

Halx 04-07-2009 11:21 AM

Seems like last episode tied up all the loose ends except 2... the agent and Alpha.

genuinegirly 04-07-2009 11:41 AM

I'm not so sure that it has tied up any ends. I think the "closure" that Echo felt will disappear. She will realize that it was a false scenario created to appease or confuse her.

FuglyStick 04-07-2009 12:22 PM

I can't watch that show. Dushku is an awful, awful actress.

CinnamonGirl 04-07-2009 12:29 PM

*averts eyes from all posts*

So, I work on Friday nights. I'd planned on marathon-ing what's been aired so far on Hulu. My plan was ruined when I realized that Hulu only hosts full episodes for a certain amount of time, so the first two or three eps aren't available anymore... gah!

So. 1) If I started watching now, would I be completely lost? and, 2) Are there other sites where full episodes are available (from the first ep on), that don't include downloading a special player or other software?

Cynthetiq 04-07-2009 12:39 PM

I believe that the first 4 episodes were stand alone episodes where you could watch without it really impacting the season story arc. Many tuned in expecting to see Whedon's writing only to be disappointed in it not being there yet. His touch is more apparent in later episodes.

Frosstbyte 04-07-2009 03:31 PM

I don't really know what fox's website itself requires in order to view episodes, but I'm pretty sure they have the entire season so far hosted. That'd be my recommendation.

As for your comment, fugly, I don't really know that worrying about Dushku is your best use of your time as far as this show goes. I really feel like she's nothing more than a framework for the rest of the show. I'm pretty sure that every other character is loads more interesting than she is-whether she's being herself, a doll or an agent. You might give it a try and see what you think.

Halx 04-07-2009 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuglyStick (Post 2620778)
I can't watch that show. Dushku is an awful, awful actress.

She is... I agree. She also lacks any semblance of sexuality whatsoever. I watch it for the storyline over anything.

Cynthetiq 04-07-2009 04:49 PM

i thought she was hotter when she was Faith.... now not so much.

mrklixx 04-07-2009 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx (Post 2620914)
She is... I agree. She also lacks any semblance of sexuality whatsoever. I watch it for the storyline over anything.

Aww c'mon, that miniskirt with the thigh-high white stocking combo was pretty sexy.

Although Miracle Laurie (November/Mellie) gets my vote for hottie du jour.

Willravel 04-09-2009 11:47 AM

Dollhouse has officially been canceled. And they're not even going to play the 13th episode.

Thanks a lot, Fox.

‘Dollhouse’ Cancelled -

Cynthetiq 04-09-2009 11:49 AM

yeah i just heard this at the watercooler.... I've been John Doe'd yet again.

Willravel 04-09-2009 11:57 AM

I'm sure we'll see Whedon on Fox again in a few years with another interesting concept for a show, earning him the nickname "One-Season Whedon", which is a shame because that doesn't really rhyme.

Now all eyes move to Sarah Conner Chronicles, which has also been performing poorly.

Cynthetiq 04-09-2009 11:58 AM

and hasn't been announced to be picked up for a 3rd season. Since the movie comes out next month, it's a no brainer that it's just a vehicle to stoke the Terminator fires.

CinnamonGirl 04-09-2009 12:44 PM

Sorry, guys, it's my fault... I started watching it. Same thing happened with Drive. As soon as I started catching up on eps, sha-ZAM. Cancelled.


Kinda saw this coming, though... and I'm not sure why Whedon even considered Fox after Firefly. Sigh.

Halx 04-09-2009 12:49 PM

I'm pretty shocked.

Networks today have no patience to let a show come into its own.

Frosstbyte 04-09-2009 01:28 PM

I'm neither surprised nor too upset. Dollhouse has been interesting and fun to watch, but none of it has been in the same league as Whedon's other work, despite having higher production values. Also, hello, Fox? This show needed to come roaring out with every Whedon fanboy and then some showing up drooling over every episode and bringing all of his friends for it to get a chance. For whatever reason (and I don't believe that Fox is solely to blame), it did not. It lost casual viewers and Whedon fans alike early and often and while, for Friday night, it has not been...horrible...I think it's an expensive show that's not bringing in the returns you'd hope from a guy as high profile as Whedon is.

Not gonna lie, if I were making the decision, I'd probably give it the axe too. Dollhouse has not been what any of us expected, though it's still pretty douchey of them not to let it at least end its run.


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