Why capitalism can never work - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pai mei · 02-20-2009, 12:00 AM

Dragonlich yes I have that wall feeling too

Crime will disappear, there will be nothing to steal. People will stop being lonely, and each for himself, hating others that are "better off". There will be communities where all know each other, so you why steal or do harm to your friends ?
Did you know that in the Maldive islands until 1960 when India established a police post there, there were no thieves ? The concept itself was unknown to the locals.

Also see this :
First contact with Amazon tribe:

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You have church groups, relief agencies, military operators, social scientists, archeologist's, etc...all dying to get their hands on people like this. Of course, they would get killed trying to do it from the ground, these tribes will out and out kill you as an outsider. The west shows up with radios and food, they look at it hastly and toss it aside, tell you to leave. One kid starts messing with the radio and picks up some music, people in the tribe start to get intrigued. They open up the food, and have a taste, its good and safe. A few weeks later, a landrover shows up with more things, they communicate in archaic means, give them t-shirts with Nike logos and shoes to boot. These tribes are all now big pimpin.
They move into the nearest big city, get shaved up, loose the war paint and get a job cleaning urinals at the local Hilton hotel. Before you know it, the tribe has lost contact with each other and the people individually begin to enter into a deep cycle of poverty, they are unbelievably sad. They get a group of people back together, by shear luck, they take a bus to the border of the inhabited areas, they go and take rental cars as far as they can go. They walk back into their lands, its nothing but smoke, machinery, cane fields and a totally lost culture. They go back, live off the rest of their lives a miserable existence. In Brazil, we talked to Army guys that were born into these kinds of situations, they can talk about this stuff at great length. It so sad to listen to, they were living a fairly decent life. They had death and other issues, but at the very least they were happy, until man showed up and tempted them. The story gets repeated over and over again so many times people have lost count. When I would train in areas like this in S.A., we would run into friendly tribes, I always told them to just hold onto what you have and ignore us. We cannot do anything better for you than you can for yourself. We are just passing through. The only time I'd do anything for them was to help someone who was injured, I had medicine so I gave it to them. Never stayed to see if the antibiotics worked out, but thats about the limit of my engagements. They need to be left alone, its better in the jungle than in the city.

And these:
Face to face with Stone Age man: The Hadzabe tribe of Tanzania | Mail Online

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The plan by the Arabs to buy their land is all the more ironic: the Hadza have no concept of private property, roaming unchecked for thousands of years alongside the animals they hunt.

Nevertheless, the Tanzanian government has repeatedly tried to 'tame' the Hadza, building houses and trying to teach them to grow crops. One attempt to resettle them ended when a dozen perished when they were forced into modern homes.

"They just rotted inside and died," said Charles Ngereza, a tribal expert.

Sir Humphry meets the natives - Berwick Today

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FIVE tribesmen from the South Pacific Island of Tanna, one of the most southerly islands of the nation of Vanuatu, visited Britain recently to observe the country's tribes working class, middle class and upper class

Visiting their first British city is an exciting and eye opening experience for the islanders but they are saddened to discover how many homeless people are living on the streets.
How, they ask, is it possible for a city with so much wealth to contain people with no home or family to shelter them?

In a community you never leave your childhood friends behind. You never compete for survival against your friends from school. Friendships go on trough the entire life. How advanced are we, competing for survival against friends! But wait, what is a "friend" today ? In a tribe you helped others knowing you will be helped anytime you need help. That was their life time insurance. That's why tribes worked, and they did not disband at the first famine. See the story of Crazy Horse, I posted it somewhere above.

Look at those stories. Our "civilized" world must be very lonely for them. Look at those people - moved into modern homes they died. Not having the freedom to go anywhere and do what they like killed them. That is real freedom. We are half humans, or we are "anesthetized", and we don't know it, this is the only reason we are able to live in this crazy system.

For me an advanced civilization is measured by the way people behave to each other. Not by how much technology they have. Technology can be good, not in the way we use it today. - to get money.

I am sure people will not be bored in my society, there will be plenty of organizations going on and doing stuff. Even build a space shuttle if you get enough to want it. They will work to see their dream come true, they know they are not working for the good or the comfort of the boss. He is just there to organize stuff, he gets nothing extra. Maybe he gets "fame" if he is good.
There will be no democracy in choosing him. He will chose himself others will just approve him, or another, because there is nothing forcing them to work under him if they don't like it. Only really good and skilled people will be listened by others.

More stories :

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At the age of 33, Matthew Maury, an officer in the U.S. Navy, found that his hopes of advancement in the Navy were ended, having sustained disabling injuries in an accident. From then on, he studied the ocean with the logbooks available to him in his work at the Naval Observatory. Writings include his 1855 Physical Geography of the Sea. Maury is known as the father of modern oceanography and naval meteorology and one of the most important scientists of the nineteenth century.

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Fired from his job as editorial cartoonist of the New York Daily Journal, John Barrymore joined a theatrical company in Chicago headed by a distant relative. He is frequently called the greatest actor of his generation

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Convicted of manslaughter and violent acts in prison, Robert Stroud was imprisoned in Leavenworth for thirty years. He developed a keen interest in birds after finding an injured bird in the recreation yard. In time he was allowed to breed birds and maintain a laboratory inside two adjoining isolation cells. As a result of this privilege, Stroud was able to author two books on canaries and their diseases, having raised nearly 300 birds in his cells, carefully studying their habits and physiology. He even developed and marketed medicines for various bird ailments. Although it is widely debated whether the remedies he developed were effective, Stroud was able to make scientific observations that would later benefit research on the canary species.

Imagine what people would do if they were free do do what they like. Not saying "don't have time for play". Play is life. If you do something you like, even as an adult, that is "play" it's the continuation of the creative person you once were as a child, when you "played" all day. You need no reward for it, the activity and result itself is the reward.

pai mei · 02-23-2009, 02:14 PM

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Figuring out what’s wrong has become a global preoccupation. People of all ages are working on it —people of every social and economic class, every political persuasion. Ten-year-old kids are trying to work it out. I know this because they talk to me about it. I know this because I’ve seen them pause in the midst of play to give it their attention.

Every year more and more children are born out of wedlock. Every year more and more children live in broken homes. Every year more and more people are bruised and battered by crime. Every year more and more children are abused and murdered. Every year more and more women are raped. Every year more and more people are afraid to walk the streets at night. Every year more and more people commit suicide. Every year more and more people become addicted to drugs and alcohol. Every year more and more people are imprisoned as criminals. Every year more and more people find routine entertainment in murderous violence and pornography. Every year more and more people immolate themselves in lunatic cults, delusional terrorism, and sudden, uncontrollable bursts of violence.

The theories that are advanced to explain these things are for the most part commonplace generalities, truisms, and platitudes. They are the received wisdom of the ages. You hear, for example, that the human race is fatally and irremediably flawed. You hear that the human race is a sort of planetary disease that Gaia will eventually shake off. You hear that insatiable capitalist greed is to blame or that technology is to blame. You hear that parents are to blame or the schools are to blame or rock and roll is to blame. Sometimes you hear that the symptoms themselves are to blame: things like poverty, oppression, and injustice, things like overcrowding, bureaucratic indifference, and political corruption.

These are some of the common theories advanced to explain what’s gone wrong here. You’ll hear others. Most of them have to be deduced from the remedies that are proposed to correct them. Usually these remedies are expressed in this form: All we have to do is . . . something. Elect the right party. Get rid of this leader. Handcuff the liberals. Handcuff the conservatives. Write stricter laws. Give longer prison sentences. Bring back the death penalty. Kill Jews, kill ancient enemies, kill foreigners, kill somebody. Meditate. Pray the Rosary. Raise consciousness. Evolve to some new plane of existence.

From "The Story of B" by Daniel Quinn

pai mei · 03-24-2009, 11:20 AM

telekinetic · 03-24-2009, 12:02 PM

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Originally Posted by pai mei

Dragonlich you say people need to work ? Of course they need to work to survive. If by technology we escape that work isn't that a good thing ? Then do whatever you want, party all day.

And who will develop this technology, manufacture it, implement it, and why? You say technology like it's some independent thing that automatically advances unrelated to anyone doing work to advance it.

You repeat over and over that with the proper technology, agriculture could be efficient enough to sustain the world at a subsistence level existence with a fraction of the population working.

I'm going to copy and paste my answer from your last thread, as it still applies here. I'm not going to put it in quotes, because people tend to read past them, but here goes:

What about the people who manufacture and engineer the farming equipment?
What about the people who drive the trucks and trains and planes to distribute the goods, and the people who build them?
What about the people who process the food, and the people who build the machines that process the food?
What about the power generation and distribution to power all of this utopia, both due to the electric grid and the petroleum needed to fuel the farm and transportation equipment?
What about the computers to coordinate the production and distribution of this food, and the networks to support that coordination?
What about the distribution centers for the food?
What about the space industry needed to support the network of satellites that allows GPS to function, thus enabling super efficient automated farming? Now we need rocket scientists, too!
And that is just for food! We also need to manufacture and distribute clothing and shelter, and all of the things that go along with both of those. I'd assume we still need running water, so you still need that utility company as well, and we'll need roads constructed and maintained to get the food to everyone, so we still need civil engineers and construction workers. Plus, if we're going to have vehicles driving and flying around, we need repair shops, and subassembly manufacturers (I make seatbelts!).

What you are describing is a society benefiting from extreme specialization, but without any of the neccessary industries to support that specialization. If you want to maintain the level of efficiency you seem to desire in agriculture, I think you would need to maintain a startlingly large segment of the manufacturing and engineering base.

(end quote)

From: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/general...ml#post2562298

We are such a web of related technologies that to suggest abolishing any arm leads to so many cascading shortages all the way up and down the industrial base it's damn near incomprehensible.

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Originally Posted by ASU2003

Solar Heater

This is the cheap and easy passive solar that I was talking about. Sorry about the confusion. You can build even cheaper ones than this, or more elaborate 'professional' looking attached green houses or sun porches.

People use solar water heaters to heat swimming pools and to get hot water too.

Welcome to The Sietch - Projects Build Your Own Solar Thermal Panel

I would expect more people to look into this form of heating in the south and southwest, and you don't need expensive solar panels (the equivalent active solar panel energy needed to run a furnace or hot water heater would be huge).

This is going to sound like I'm being way more of a dick than I intend to be, but here's the materials list for your cheap and easy passive solar heater:

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Ingredients:
2x8 lumber
2x6 lumber
2x4 lumber
2x2 lumber
glass, plexiglass, or some kind of clear material.
black aluminum window screen
caulking, paint, screws, lag screws, staple gun + other tools

Do you personally know how to manufacture all of those things? What Pai Mei is talking about is a complete eradication of the industrial base as we know it.

I know that if I personally were dropped in the woods naked, it would take me probably a couple years before I could make a decent 2x4, let alone plexiglass, window screen, caulk, and some lag screws, and you're fooling yourself if you think you could do any better. Tools make tools to make materials to make tools to make parts that make stuff, and once you break that chain it's really hard to go back.

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Originally Posted by pai mei

I feel like I'm talking to some wall here.

I feel like I'm talking to someone who has never worked in any manufacturing or engineering or agricultural industry or spent any more thought on this idea than "Man, working for a living sucks. Couldn't we just have robots grow us food and feed us? Then I could backpack around Europe and putter around in my garden! Yeah that would rule!"

pai mei · 03-24-2009, 01:35 PM

I said 20 % work. Now 3 % work in agriculture. So until 20% you have the rest that build the farming machines and hospitals and schools - to maintain knowledge, and people are free to use it. Not forced to have only what the system gives. There will be no more power grid, unless someone builds it because he wants to. The system will not cook your food. Will not build your home. But there will be no hungry or homeless people. So lazy to not cook your food or build a home when you have all the free time ? Sorry for that. But there will be communities. People will help each other build homes and improve their surroundings. And maybe one day , bored after a party that lasted years, peopel will say "let's build this or that, to show the others from the next town what we can". This is the way an advanced civilization behaves as I see it. Building and inventing just for fun.

See here :
http://www.monitorulsv.ro/Local/2009...aceeasi-celula
In this village the water destroyed the bridge. Because the company that was supossed to build it back was lazy or wanted to keep getting money for nothing being friends with the mayor or whatever, the villagers got together and built a bridge. No money no nothing. And now they face jail for "building a bridge on a public road". This is the crazy world we live in.

I did live in the country and know about cooking food and living with no tv and electricity.

But all this I see as a transition phase to a society where there is no system anyomore and people live in vilalges self sustainable and so on. But that is kind of impossible. Need to be much less people on the planet to live in villages and be sustainable and without modern farming. So I remain with my idea, I am sure the destruction of the planet would be slowed down a lot in that kind of world.

pai mei · 03-28-2009, 11:03 PM

Think I am trying to destroy civilization ? What civilization ? Make the police and army disappear, and you will realize that they were the only thing holding us together in this form. Chaos will follow.
This crisis will not end. There will be people who live in tents, and houses will be empty. There will be people who are hungry but there will be enough food. Very advanced.

People use masks each day. A mask at work "the good servant of Mr. Boss". A mask on the street "the respectable citizen". Some have even a mask at home, because they wore the mask for so long that they think they are that mask, that person. These masks allow us to simulate "order". To sleep and think of how "civilized" we are. And are not enough, we need an external force too - the police.

Imagine that we get a news that an asteroid is coming towards us. There will be panic, and everything will break down. Because everything is artificial. It's not us. It's not even ours. You build a great building but you can't touch it. Go live in a tent. It's built while we are wearing masks, or forced to wear them to survive.
Aren't we always "advancing" ? Isn't there a level under which we cannot descend ? No, it appears not. Cave people with technology we are. We do not know how to behave but call ourselves "advanced".

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"As a child I understood how to give, I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized."
-Luther Standing Bear, Oglala

"It was our belief that the love of possessions is a weakness to be overcome. Its appeal is to the material part, and if allowed its way, it will in time disturb one's spiritual balance. Therefore, children must early learn the beauty of generosity. They are taught to give what they prize most, that they may taste the happiness of giving."
-Ohiyesa (Charles Alexander Eastman) - Wahpeton Santee Sioux

Look at the extinct american indians. What do you think they would do in case they knew an asteroid would wipe them out ? Looting ? Killing ? Chaos ? No. Because they had no masks to put on each day. They cannot break out and be "wild and free", they already were wild and free. Their behavior was sincere each day. They did not need police to protect them from themselves.
They had this concept that telling another what do to was a very rude act. In fact it showed weakness by the one who did it. So nobody was telling another what to do. Yet they stayed together. Not forced, not slaves to each other, and not unhappy. Amazing.

pai mei · 04-01-2009, 01:12 PM

A tribe in Brasil.
The Marvelous Piraha

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The Piraha, a small tribe of hunter-gatherers in Brazil, have resisted, with breathtaking consistency, all the developments in linguistic abstraction, representational art, number, and time described above.

While this tribe has been in contact with other Brazilians for two centuries, for some reason they have maintained an extreme degree of linguistic and cultural integrity, remaining monolingual to this day. Significantly, in not just one but all the areas described in this chapter, they exhibit very little of the separation implicit in modern symbolic culture. They do not impose linearity onto time. They do not abstract the specific into the generic through numbering. They do not usually genericize individual human beings through pronouns. They do not freeze time into representation through drawing. They do not reduce the continuum of color to a discrete finitude by naming colors. They have little independent concept of fingers, the basis for number, grasping, and controlling; nor do they use fingers to point.

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The Piraha language is nearly devoid of any sort of abstraction. There is no semantic embedding, as in locutions like "I think she wants to come." ("She wants to come" is a nominalized phrase embedded in "I think [X]"). The lack of nominalized phrases means that words are not abstracted from reality to be conceived as things-in-themselves. Grammar is not an infinitely extendible template that can generate meaning abstractly through mere syntax. Words are only used in concrete reference to objects of direct experience. There are, for example, no myths of any sort in Piraha, nor do the Piraha tell fictional stories. This absence of abstraction also explains the lack of terms for numbers.

Even colors do not exist in the abstract for Piraha. While they are clearly able to discern colors and to use words like "blood" or "dirt" as modifiers to describe colored objects, these words do not refer to any color in the abstract. One cannot say, for example, "I like red things, " or "Do not eat red things in the jungle" in Piraha.

Even the very idea of abstract representation is apparently impossible to explain to the Piraha.

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The Piraha similarly abstain from projection into the future, sharing with other hunter-gatherers the nonchalance and disdain for food storage described in Chapter One. They are aware of food storage methods such as drying, salting, and so forth, but only use these techniques to make items for barter. For themselves they store no food, explaining to Everett, "I store meat in the belly of my brother". In other words, says Everett, "They share with those who need meat, never storing for the future." A further level of interpretation of this statement is also possible, however: taken literally, it suggests a different conception of self-interest and therefore a different conception of self. To help another is to help oneself. We are not separate.

Like other hunter-gatherers, the Piraha have few material possessions, and those they do possess are very impermanent: baskets that last a day or two, dwellings that last until the next storm. Their material culture makes no provision for security in the future, no provision for progress, betterment, or accumulation.

Piraha People and Language - Amazon Tribe of Brazil - Crystalinks

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The Piraha people have no history, no descriptive words and no subordinate clauses.

That makes their language one of the strangest in the world - and also one of the most hotly debated by linguists. The language is incredibly spare. The Pirahã use only three pronouns.
They hardly use any words associated with time and past tense verb conjugations don't exist. Apparently colors aren't very important to the Pirahãs, either -- they don't describe any of them in their language. But of all the curiosities, the one that bugs linguists the most is that Pirahã is likely the only language in the world that doesn't use subordinate clauses. Instead of saying, "When I have finished eating, I would like to speak with you," the Pirahãs say, "I finish eating, I speak with you."

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The principle is that the Piraha see themselves as intrinsically different from, and better than, the people around them; everything they do is to prevent them from being like anyone else or being absorbed into the wider world. One of the ways they do this is by not abstracting anything: numbers, colours, or future events.

To mee they seem like a tribe of natural zen masters, avoiding to categorize the world, not caring about what time is it, unable of any abstraction, can't even count to 2, and living always in the here and now.

Labeling the World

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The destructive potential of language is contained within the very nature of representation. Words, particularly nouns, force an infinity of unique objects and processes into a finite number of categories. Words deny the uniqueness of each moment and each experience, reducing it to a "this" or a "that". They grant us the power to manipulate and control (with logic) the things they refer to, but at the price of immediacy. Something is lost, the essence of a thing. By generalizing particulars into categories, words render invisible the differences among them. By labeling both A and B a tree, and conditioning ourselves to that label, we become blind to the differences between A and B. The label affects our perception of reality and the way we interact with it.

Hunter-gatherers, who were closer to a time before generic labels, were animists who believed in the unique sacred spirit of each animal, plant, object, and process. I can imagine a time when a tree was not a tree, but a distinct individual. If it is just a tree, one among a whole forest of trees, it is no great matter to chop it down. Nothing unique is being removed from the world. But if we see it as a unique individual, sacred and irreplaceable, then we would chop it down only with great circumspection. We might, as many indigenous peoples do, meditate and pray before committing an act of such enormity. It would be an occasion for solemn ritual. Only a very worthy purpose would justify it. Now, having converted all of these unique, divine beings into just so many trees, we level entire forests with hardly a second thought.

The "discriminating mind" :
http://www.rosenoire.org/archives/Hagakure.pdf

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When Yamamoto Gorozaemon went to the priest Tetsugyu in Edo wanting to hear something about Buddhism, Tetsugyo said, "Buddhism gets rid of the discriminating mind. It is nothing more than this."

And a story :
http://www.ashidakim.com/zenkoans/16notfar...buddhahood.html

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A university student while visiting Gasan asked him: "Have you ever read the Christian Bible?"

"No, read it to me," said Gasan.

The student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for rainment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow. They toil not, neither do they spin, and yet I say unto you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these... Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an enlightened man."

The student continued reading: "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth, and he that seeketh findeth, and to him that knocketh, it shall be opened."

Gasan remarked: "That is excellent. Whoever said that is not far from Buddhahood.

pai mei · 04-07-2009, 03:11 AM

Dubai:

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I approach a blonde 17-year-old Dutch girl wandering around in hotpants, oblivious to the swarms of men gaping at her. "I love it here!" she says. "The heat, the malls, the beach!" Does it ever bother you that it's a slave society? She puts her head down, just as Sohinal did. "I try not to see," she says. Even at 17, she has learned not to look, and not to ask; that, she senses, is a transgression too far.

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My patience frayed by all this excess, I find myself snapping: doesn't the omnipresent slave class bother you? I hope they misunderstood me, because the woman replied: "That's what we come for! It's great, you can't do anything for yourself!" Her husband chimes in: "When you go to the toilet, they open the door, they turn on the tap – the only thing they don't do is take it out for you when you have a piss!" And they both fall about laughing.

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As soon as he arrived at Dubai airport, his passport was taken from him by his construction company. He has not seen it since. He was told brusquely that from now on he would be working 14-hour days in the desert heat – where western tourists are advised not to stay outside for even five minutes in summer, when it hits 55 degrees – for 500 dirhams a month (£90), less than a quarter of the wage he was promised. If you don't like it, the company told him, go home. "But how can I go home? You have my passport, and I have no money for the ticket," he said. "Well, then you'd better get to work," they replied.

Sahinal was in a panic. His family back home – his son, daughter, wife and parents – were waiting for money, excited that their boy had finally made it. But he was going to have to work for more than two years just to pay for the cost of getting here – and all to earn less than he did in Bangladesh.

He shows me his room. It is a tiny, poky, concrete cell with triple-decker bunk-beds, where he lives with 11 other men. All his belongings are piled onto his bunk: three shirts, a spare pair of trousers, and a cellphone. The room stinks, because the lavatories in the corner of the camp – holes in the ground – are backed up with excrement and clouds of black flies. There is no air conditioning or fans, so the heat is "unbearable. You cannot sleep. All you do is sweat and scratch all night." At the height of summer, people sleep on the floor, on the roof, anywhere where they can pray for a moment of breeze.

The water delivered to the camp in huge white containers isn't properly desalinated: it tastes of salt. "It makes us sick, but we have nothing else to drink," he says.

The work is "the worst in the world," he says. "You have to carry 50kg bricks and blocks of cement in the worst heat imaginable ... This heat – it is like nothing else. You sweat so much you can't pee, not for days or weeks. It's like all the liquid comes out through your skin and you stink. You become dizzy and sick but you aren't allowed to stop, except for an hour in the afternoon. You know if you drop anything or slip, you could die. If you take time off sick, your wages are docked, and you are trapped here even longer."

He is currently working on the 67th floor of a shiny new tower, where he builds upwards, into the sky, into the heat. He doesn't know its name. In his four years here, he has never seen the Dubai of tourist-fame, except as he constructs it floor-by-floor.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...ai-1664368.htm

pai mei · 04-14-2009, 02:22 AM

Mentally sane and mentally insane groups of people.

Logical and natural sharing of necessary work :
A group of sane Homo Sapiens of the 21 century on a mountain trip. In the evening someone gathers wood, someone cooks, next evening another and so on. Then all eat. Or they all go after some wood each evening, and take turns to cook, means less work for all. That is nice.

Now let's see how insane people organize themselves:
A group of mentally ill escaped from some hospital on a mountain trip : in the evening someone gathers wood, someone cooks, then they are the only ones that eat. Same thing next evening. The group is large, they can't fit all together near the pot , so they cannot all cook. They can all gather wood but there is no need.
So they being as crazy as they are say "who does not work does not eat !". No matter that there is no need for all to work, and not even that, sometimes there is no room enough. They decide "all who want food must work ! whatever , we don't care !" So some crazy people start cutting the forest to make wooden easter bunnies, some are sent to dig holes then fill them up again, some run around just being crazy, and so on.
The idea of dividing the necessary work to all, gaining lots of free time for all cannot pass trough their minds. Free time in which they can obtain other non essential stuff as they wish. They are crazy after all, hate each other, and they hate happy people with nothing to do the most. What can you ask..

If I add the money system ? The insane people get complicated start printing little green papers, play a game called "economy". They trash the mountain, playing the game, working to produce garbage, but because of the rules of the game they get more and more green papers, which they can trade for food.
All is well until some "crisis" appears in their over complicated system, and the ones doing non essential work are again left without food, someone among them decided that. Being crazy they can eat their pieces of green paper, that is an advantage.

How did we as a civilization got to fear free time ? All the inventions we made, were they not meant to free us from work ? To help us work less ? Yes they were, and the first organization - the one of the sane people was what the inventors had in mind if they were thinking of more free time for the poor workers. But no, we being crazy have chosen the second way to organize ourselves, making all the inventions useless. More and more work, trash the planet ! All must work !

The_Jazz · 04-14-2009, 01:57 PM

There comes a point where a thread is no longer a discussion and starts to transform into a blog. We've reached that point here. Thread closed until someone other than pai mei has something to say. If that's you, let a staffer know.

03-24-2009, 11:20 AM	#43 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	__________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

03-24-2009, 01:35 PM	#45 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	I said 20 % work. Now 3 % work in agriculture. So until 20% you have the rest that build the farming machines and hospitals and schools - to maintain knowledge, and people are free to use it. Not forced to have only what the system gives. There will be no more power grid, unless someone builds it because he wants to. The system will not cook your food. Will not build your home. But there will be no hungry or homeless people. So lazy to not cook your food or build a home when you have all the free time ? Sorry for that. But there will be communities. People will help each other build homes and improve their surroundings. And maybe one day , bored after a party that lasted years, peopel will say "let's build this or that, to show the others from the next town what we can". This is the way an advanced civilization behaves as I see it. Building and inventing just for fun. See here : http://www.monitorulsv.ro/Local/2009...aceeasi-celula In this village the water destroyed the bridge. Because the company that was supossed to build it back was lazy or wanted to keep getting money for nothing being friends with the mayor or whatever, the villagers got together and built a bridge. No money no nothing. And now they face jail for "building a bridge on a public road". This is the crazy world we live in. I did live in the country and know about cooking food and living with no tv and electricity. But all this I see as a transition phase to a society where there is no system anyomore and people live in vilalges self sustainable and so on. But that is kind of impossible. Need to be much less people on the planet to live in villages and be sustainable and without modern farming. So I remain with my idea, I am sure the destruction of the planet would be slowed down a lot in that kind of world. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 03-24-2009 at 01:59 PM..

04-14-2009, 02:22 AM	#49 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Mentally sane and mentally insane groups of people. Logical and natural sharing of necessary work : A group of sane Homo Sapiens of the 21 century on a mountain trip. In the evening someone gathers wood, someone cooks, next evening another and so on. Then all eat. Or they all go after some wood each evening, and take turns to cook, means less work for all. That is nice. Now let's see how insane people organize themselves: A group of mentally ill escaped from some hospital on a mountain trip : in the evening someone gathers wood, someone cooks, then they are the only ones that eat. Same thing next evening. The group is large, they can't fit all together near the pot , so they cannot all cook. They can all gather wood but there is no need. So they being as crazy as they are say "who does not work does not eat !". No matter that there is no need for all to work, and not even that, sometimes there is no room enough. They decide "all who want food must work ! whatever , we don't care !" So some crazy people start cutting the forest to make wooden easter bunnies, some are sent to dig holes then fill them up again, some run around just being crazy, and so on. The idea of dividing the necessary work to all, gaining lots of free time for all cannot pass trough their minds. Free time in which they can obtain other non essential stuff as they wish. They are crazy after all, hate each other, and they hate happy people with nothing to do the most. What can you ask.. If I add the money system ? The insane people get complicated start printing little green papers, play a game called "economy". They trash the mountain, playing the game, working to produce garbage, but because of the rules of the game they get more and more green papers, which they can trade for food. All is well until some "crisis" appears in their over complicated system, and the ones doing non essential work are again left without food, someone among them decided that. Being crazy they can eat their pieces of green paper, that is an advantage. How did we as a civilization got to fear free time ? All the inventions we made, were they not meant to free us from work ? To help us work less ? Yes they were, and the first organization - the one of the sane people was what the inventors had in mind if they were thinking of more free time for the poor workers. But no, we being crazy have chosen the second way to organize ourselves, making all the inventions useless. More and more work, trash the planet ! All must work ! __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

04-14-2009, 01:57 PM	#50 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	There comes a point where a thread is no longer a discussion and starts to transform into a blog. We've reached that point here. Thread closed until someone other than pai mei has something to say. If that's you, let a staffer know. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo