clavus

Instead of sending me the expected rejection letter, the fine folks at cartoonStock.com told me that they want to represent my work.

Does anybody have any experience with these guys? I wonder if this is my big break, or if I am about to get burned.

cartoonStock sure looks legit to me, but...I have almost no experience with the business side of art, and I don't have any friends who do.

Hmmm... now that I think about it, I don't really have any friends who are visual artists....in fact, I don't have any friends.... I'M SO ALONE AND I DON't KNOW WHAT TO DO!

Wait. I got carried away there. Ignore that last part. What about cartoonStock? Anybody?

__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

Dizzet

Well i dont know anything about catoonstock but this should help you not to get burned as a visual artist...

Top 10 Lies told to Naive Artists and Designers
Mark W. Lewis

1 "Do this one cheap (or free) and we'll make it up on the next one."
No reputable business person would first give away their work and time or merchandise on the hope of making it up later. Can you imagine what a plumber would say if you said "come in, provide and install the sink for free and next time we'll make it up when we need a sink." You would be laughed at! Also the likelyhood is that if something important came along, they wouldn't use you.

2 "We never pay a cent until we see the final product."
This is a croc, unless the person is leaving the door open to cheat you out of your pay. Virtually every profession requres a deposit or incremental payment during anything but the smallest project. Once you have a working relationship, you may work out another arrangement with a client. But a new client should not ask you to go beyond an initial meeting and, perhaps some preliminary sketches without pay on the job!

3 "Do this for us and you'll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in!"
Baloney. Tell a plumber "Install this sink and my friend will see and you'll get lots of business!" Our plumber friend would say "You mean even if I do a good job I have to give my work away to get noticed? Then it isn't worth the notice." Also the guy would likely brag to everyone he knows about how this would normally cost (X) dollars, but brilliant businessman that he is he got if for free! If anyone calls, they'll expect the same or better deal.

4 On looking at sketches or concepts: "Well, we aren't sure if we want to use you yet, but leave your material here so I can talk to my partner/investor/wife/clergy."
You can be sure that 15 minutes after you leave he will be on the phone to other designers, now with concepts in hand, asking for price quotes. When you call back you will be informed that your prices were too high and Joe Blow Design/Illustration will be doing the job. Why shouldn't they be cheaper? You just gave them hours of free consulting work! Until you have a deal, LEAVE NOTHING CREATIVE at the clients office.

5 "Well, the job isn't CANCELLED, just delayed. Keep the account open and we'll continue in a month or two."
Ummm, probably not. If something is hot, then not, it could be dead. It would be a mistake to *not* bill for work performed at this point and then let the chips fall where they may! Call in two months and someone else may be in that job. And guess what? They don't know you at all.....

6 "Contract? We don't need no stinking contact! Aren't we friends?"
Yes, we are, until something goes wrong or is misunderstood, then you are the jerk in the suit and I am that idiot designer, then the contract is essential. That is, unless one doesn't care about being paid. Any reputable business uses paperwork to define relationships and you should too.

7 "Send me a bill after the work goes to press."
Why wait for an irrelevant deadline to send an invoice? You stand behind your work, right? You are honest, right? Why would you feel bound to this deadline? Once you deliver the work and it is accepted, BILL IT. This point may just be a delaying tactic so the job goes through the printer prior to any question of your being paid. If the guy waits for the job to be printed, and you do changes as necessary, then he can stiff you and not take a chance that he'll have to pay someone else for changes.

8 "The last guy did it for XXX dollars."
That is irrelevant. If the last guy was so good they wouldn't be talking to you, now would they? And what that guy charged means nothing to you, really. People who charge too little for their time go out of business (or self-destruct financially, or change occupations) and then someone else has to step in. Set a fair price and stick to it.

9 "Our budget is XXX dollars, firm."
Amazing, isn't it? This guy goes out to buy a car, and what, knows exactly what he is going to spend before even looking or researching? Not likely. A certain amount of work costs a certain amount of money. If they have less money (and you *can*) do less work and still take the job. But make sure they understand that you are doing less work if you take less money that you originally estimated. Give fewer comps, simplify, let them go elsewhere for services (like films) etc.

10 "We are having financial problems. Give us the work, we'll make some money and we'll pay you. Simple."
Yeah, except when the money comes, you can expect that you will be pretty low on the list to be paid. If someone reaches the point where they admit that the company is in trouble, then they are probably much worse off than they are admitting to. Even then, are you a bank? Are you qualified to check out their financials? If the company is strapped to the point where credit is a problem through credit agencies, banks etc. what business would you have extending credit to them. You have exactly ZERO pull once they have the work. Noble intentions or not, this is probably a losing bet. But if you are going to roll the dice, AT LEAST you should be getting additional money for waiting. The bank gets interest and so should you. That is probably why the person is approaching you; to get six months worth of free interest instead of paying bank rates for credit and then paying you with that money. Don't give away money.

Now, this list wasn't meant to make anyone crazy or paranoid, but is designed to inject some reality into the fantasy.

You are GOING to be dealing with people who are unlike yourself. Their motivations are their own and their attitudes are probably different than yours. There are going to be demands, problems, issues and all the hassles that go with practically ANY work/job/money situation. Too many times I see the sad example of someone walking in to a situation with noble intentions and then getting royally screwed, because what they see as an opportunity and a labor of love, the other party sees as something else entirely, not at all romantic or idealized, but raw and simple.

How can you deal with this stuff and still do good creative work? Good question. THIS is why an education is important. You learn, out of the line of fire, how to deal with the art at it's own level and also how to deal with the crap that surrounds it. You may have tough teachers and think that it can't be worse, but wait until a business person has a hundred grand riding on your art! Then you will know what "demanding" means. You will then thank all those tough teachers for building up the calluses that enable you to enjoy the job rather than just feeling like it is all a big waste of time!

In the end, working commercially, being a terrific artist is about 25% of the task. If that is the only part of the task that you are interested in, do yourself a favor. Don't turn "pro."

__________________
I am a pretty little Girl

FngKestrel

Are you contracting for them? Or are they getting a cut for commissioning you? Are you set up as an LLC? Or some sort of legal protection?

exile2k4

One of the main things to be aware of is what you're actually selling. There are essentially 3 different things you can sell, and they're all seperate:

1) Selling the physical object. This is fairly straightforward, you sell the buyer the board/canvas/paper/whatever, and they then own it. They do not own the right to reproduce the image.

2) Selling the limited reproduction rights. You sell the client the intellectual right to reproduce your work within a specific limited framework, for example you sell a picture to be reproduced as a magazine cover. They do not then have the right to re-use the image as a flyer, or in another magazine, or on any other product - if they wanted to re-use the image, they would have to negotiate another fee with you. They do not own the physical object, you do.

3) Selling the unlimited (sometimes called "world") reproduction rights. You sell the client the unlimited intellectual right to reproduce your work, as many times and in as many places as they see fit. They are not required to pay you another fee. They do not own the physical object, however you no longer own the right to reproduce your work, nor can you sell reproduciton rights to anyone else.

The most common one in a cartoon-type field is #2, be wary of people who try and get you to go for #3 - it's not always a bad idea, just bear in mind what it actually means. Also, remember that violating reproduction rights isn't the biggest deal in the world from a legal point of view. Unless you have a lot of money and the inclination to pursue legal cases for the principle, the only time you're likely to get anywhere in court is if someone makes a serious amount of money off of work that they don't have the right to reproduce and is clearly yours.

Spanxxx

I wanted to comment on exile's three options..

I've recently worked with an artist and talked to many artists in the fantasy/comic genre in getting someone I was satisfied with for a project for my business.

The deal we worked out with our artist and what I've found is pretty common is :

4) The buyer/purchaser of the art purchases unlimited reproduction rights of the art in any form and has the rights to manipulate or modify the image(s). The artist retains the copyright to the image itself and retains "print" publication rights - meaning they are allowed to sell prints of their original work, but are not allowed to license the picture to any other party for use.

I went to GenCon and DragonCon this year and spoke to many artists while I was there and most of the ones that I discussed licensing with said they pretty much worked out a deal very similar to the one I listed above when they did things like pictures for CCG cards (Magic: the Gathering, Legend of the Five Rings, Warlords, Star Wars, etc..). Frequently, the artist will ask that the artwork retain his signature in the artwork. Most companies do this. This is what we did with our artist. It is a good way to identify the art and it is good advertising for the artist.

__________________
I think that's what they mean by "nickels a day can feed a child." I thought, "How could food be so cheap over there?" It's not, they just eat nickels. - (supposedly) Peter Nguyen, internet hero

clavus

Thank you for all the feedback.

CartoonStock is sending me a contract. I'll read it carefully before I sign anything. In the mean time, I managed to talk myself into the door with a major US newspaper. I have a meeting with them in a few days. They basically told me that they generally don't buy anything from freelancers (me), so I'll ask what THEY think of stock houses.

So if they don't buy from people like me, why do they want to meet me? Good question. One of their senior writers has my cartoons taped to his desk. I've never met the guy and he's on my side. How sweet is that?!

__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

FngKestrel

Good luck with everything clavus.

Charlatan

clavus... get the major newspaper's interest and then go to one of the larger cartoon syndicators like King Features...

I figure if you can land one newspaper, they should be interested enough and be able to land you the rest.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

clavus

YA. Good thought. King Features is already sitting on my comic strip proposal. Maybe I can get them to budge...or take on my single panel cartoons.

__________________
Ass, gas or grass. Nobody rides for free.

Giant Hamburger

Go Clavus Go!

Fly

yeah clavus.........kick the door down man.



it's your time.

__________________
BASTARD

SterlingStudios

Ishmal

any news lately Clavus???

i hope things r goin well!

__________________
"Despite the high cost of living, it remains popular."

majik_6

Good luck with all your upcoming opportunities!

I don't know anything about cartoonStock, but I do second the suggestions to be careful. A lot of my professors have told me how common it is to get "stiffed" in the art world!

__________________
it's all about self-indulgence