lindalove

My lovable but always right brother Andrew is currently 'helping' his ex-girlfriend/current sex buddy with some of her degree work. She's doing some kind of Art degree, and she's currently doing a project that involves her making small models and dressing them in clothes she's made. The only thing is that my brother has made all the models for her as she apparently can't.

Am I right in thinking that he shouldn't be helping her with this kind of thing? I have vague memories of having to sign things at college while handing work in stating that it was all my own work but I'm not sure if thats the case.

My Mom and I mentioned that we thought it perhaps wasn't the best thing he could do for her and Andrew got quite defensive about it.

So, are we just interfering old biddies or do we have a point?

maleficent

To be perfectly honest, why is it any of your business?


Back in college, I had people borrow notes, I'd help someone with different assignments, heck, I had someone else help me with assignments... I'd say it's a smart business decision to have someone do something that you can't do...

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ziadel

I'm with mal, who cares?

it's not hurting you, or your brother, only person its really hurting is this girl, and its her decision..

*shrug*

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filtherton

I was going to say that you're only hurting someone if you're doing work for them that they are expected to do. But then i saw that it was for an art degree.

It really depends. Some classes simply function as hoops for the student to jump through. If her goals don't involve knowing how to make dolls, then i wouldn't sweat it.

Willravel

It's none of your buisness, so don't do anything aboout it. It is obviously very wrong and she deserves to be expelled and he deserves to be put on acedemic probation.

lindalove

You guys are right, it's really none of my business. I just don't like the idea of my brother being involved in any wrong doings.

albania

I agree with all the people that have posted so far, this isn't something to get involved in, it's not as if he is ruining his life or something, he is old enough to make his own decisions(I assume). You have to pick your battles otherwise when its something important your brother may too defensive to listen to reason.

tecoyah

Talk to him....express your dissapointment....and move on.

You have done your sisterly duty....and he can decide his course.

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maleficent

Is he actually doing something wrong... when you were in college, you had an honor code-- Did he sign one? (you can't inflict your moral code on other people - even family members)

Is what he's doing actually cheating -- what's her project in? Fashion design or in dollmaking?

Sounds like you are more annoyed that he's helping her - than what he's actually doing...

Did he tell you what he's doing is wrong - or are you making some assumptions?

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Rodney

Don't give up so easily; is it your business? Well, if you think your bro is doing something sleazy, in good conscience you should tell him so. He's your bro, and you care. And if he disagrees, he can tell you right back. That's how healthy families work: they're messy and somewhat contentious. And that's what you did. Who's right in these situations? There's no hard and fast rule. We just all try to tell other family members that their actions worry us, with the best intentions. And we know when to back off, but that doesn't mean we don't say anything at all.

"It's his business" can be a slippery slope. Is it his business if he starts loaning all his money to some girl he's having sex with? Starts smoking too much dope because she encourages him? You can't stop him from doing anything. But by telling what you think, you are at least a counterpoint to the person who's trying to encourage him to do things that are questionable. And sometimes people need to hear that, even if they don't want to; helps them remember there are two sides to the question, especially if side 1 is trying to blot out all other arguments by spreading her legs persuasively.

Anything potentially bad that involves somebody you care about is your business, at least enough to tell them so, and why you think they could be in trouble.

lindalove

Andrew's not the one doing the degree so he doesn't have to sign anything I guess.

The degree is art but not fashion design or dollmaking, but that's all I know. I guess I am kind of annoyed that he's helping her as to me it seems dishonest to get a degree when someone else has helped do the work-but if the work is graded simply on the outfits and not the models then there is nothing wrong with it. He has done some drawing for her before as well, as he is quite a talented artist but didn't have the staying power to complete his art course. I guess I am making assumptions on what Andrew has told me but that is very little, he refuses to discuss it so in the end it's his choice.

I'm curious as to where universities stand on this kind of thing though.

highthief

Well, I think its wrong. If someone is being allowed to obtain an artificially high mark, and there is competition for graduate studies, for instance, or even some programs where the low marks, even if passing, are culled from year to year (some law schools do this, for example) then other people are being hurt by the cheating.

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Charlatan

I'm not sure it's wrong at all.

She is creating art and since she is creating something this is "dolls with clothes" my guess is that it is "conceptual art".

The key here here is, did the ideas for the piece originate from her. Many artists who work in conceptual art, don't do the final fabrication. The fabrication is sort of beides the point really.

Now, if she were making a painting and he painted it, that would be very different.

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Toaster126

I'm surprised at the general consensus of the forum is to butt out... I figured there would be a lot more of the finger-wagging and "FOR SHAME" posts.

Yeah, I think they are big fat cheaters, but what can you do about it? Not much... talking to your brother seems like the only sane thing you can do about it.

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highthief

Unless the course outline says "ask your boyfriend to do your homework for you", it's wrong.

Academic honesty = good.

Academic dishonesty = bad.

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Zeraph

Hurts everyone with a degree really, it cheapens them.

Just playing devil's advocate.

krwlz

If I were him, I wouldnt do it for her, but hey... whatever floats you're boat. When its crunch time at school, I've slacked off in courses that don't matter so much to my major, and consequently caught up through many differant means, some less honest than other.

But cmon it is an art school, and engineering degree (What I'm in school) just feels a little bit differant.

I kinda get the impression that you don't like you're brothers girlfriend/fuck-buddy, could this have some influence on you're attitude toward it?

Bottom line though, is it is his and her business, and no one elses.

little_tippler

Your brother sounds like a nice guy, and his "ex" sounds like she's taking advantage. I wouldn't say he's doing anything wrong, but if it's an art degree then she should be making the models. Even if it is just to hang clothes on, don't tell me that the look of the models she places them on won't affect the opinion of who grades her on the work. Of course it does - but she didn't make them. It's dishonest. But hey, college is not always about that, true. Also you said he's drawn stuff for her before...is he taking the degree or is she? But like everyone else has said, it's not your business. It does seems like your brother just doesn't know how to say no and this girl knows it.

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Charlatan

Honestly, we don't know enough about the assignment to judge. In my experience, the work that goes into conceptual art is the theory and the presentation behind it... The actual piece is kind of besides the point.

Did Marcel DuChamp fabricate this urinal? No. He did sign it though.


When creating this peice it is very likely that the artist didn't drive the earth mover require to build it.


I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the artist of this piece didn't do the welding (though he or she probably did).

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Lead543

Well, I'm sure she had to make the dolls for a reason, otherwise she could just go to a craft store and buy the ones they sell there. How is it any different than him writing a few paragraphs for an essay? Her name is going on work 1/2 done by him.

I think you and your Mom have a point but unfortunately, your brother is an adult and will do what he pleases. You've told him how you feel about it and that's all you really can do.

Willravel

Yes, some artists are posers.

Poppinjay

he's fortunate she's still an art student. When she graduates, she'll have to charge much more for the sex.

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Suave

I'd say it could be perceived as academic dishonesty on the part of his ex. He's probably getting more sex though.

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Willravel

Well done!

lindalove

Had a quick chat with Andrew this morning before he went back to his ex's house. The degree is in illustration and the mark will be based on all the work, including the models. I've spoken to him and I'll leave it at that.
I must admit I was amused when he showed me the back of his head where he's been cutting his own hair off to put on the model-thats dedication!

Gilda

College professor here.*

It depends highly upon what the exact parameters of the assignment were. If she was supposed to make the dolls herself, or 's being evaluated based on the dolls and the clothes, then, yes, it's cheating.

If, on the other hand, she's clear that she didn't make the dolls, and gives credit to who actually did, and accepts her grade based on that, it's perfectly kosher.

If she tries to pass the dolls off as her own work, she's cheating and should be failed on the assignment.

On the other hand, it really isn't your place to be turning her in, though I personally would strongly discourage Sissy from doing anyone else's work for them, which is a nice way of saying that if I found out she was helping someone cheat, she'd get the ass chewing of a lifetime. We've got a non-standard sister relatiionship, though, as I'm kinda half parent in addition to being the big sister.

Gilda

*Hee hee. This is the first time I've gotten to do this, throw out my credentials.

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Jinn

Well I'll go against the grain here and say .. "What is academic dishonesty, anyway?"

I'm paying a university to instruct me, not for me to learn. Most bad college instructors know this, and realize their only duty is to teach you, not for you to learn. If they teach me and I am not learning, I shouldn't (and don't) get a refund. Likewise, if I chose to let someone do my homework for me (I wouldn't, usually because I'd do it better) I wouldn't feel any guilt or moral dissonance. I've paid them, they've instructed me. If I do not learn what I should be learning, that is my fault any the only person I truly hurt is myself. Why should anyone else give a damn? If I get a job and I don't know the things I should, that is reflective upon me, not the degree. School is NOT a competition, and I think it offends me a little bit that people are competing for grades, when they SHOULD be focusing on actually learning the things they pay to learn. I'd be much happier to get a D in a class and learn a ton than get an A in a class and learn nothing -- but I get the feeling most people want the A just because it looks good -- THAT's the thing that bothers me.

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Charlatan

Actually it reflects upon the school quite a bit. Imagine if Harvard Law School just let anyone get a degree, including those who plagerize, cheat on tests, etc. with the attitude of, Well, they paid, do what do we care?

When you, with your Harvard Degree showed up a law firm and couldn't do the work assigned, the firm would think again before hiring a Harvard grad. Eventually, students wouldn't choose Harvard to attend because their degree isn't worth the paper upon which it's written.

No students. No tuitions.

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filtherton

Actually, it does reflect on the degree and the school. If it becomes common knowledge that you can get a degree from school A without actually being capable of the doing the things you should be able to do with the degree, then why would anyone want to hire someone from school A?

School doesn't have to be a competition, but for many people, the idea of competition is a motivational one.

I could get a D in all of my classes, no problem. It would actually be a lot easier and i could probably do it without learning much of anything. For most classes, getting an A requires that i understand what the class requires and more.

Suave

In post-secondary, there is a chance, however slim, that if your work is good enough, it might be up to be published. The grades you get affect scholarships you are awarded. Later on, they can affect the grants you get for graduate work. You can end up cheating a shitload of money out of other people if you cheat well enough and hard enough. This isn't highschool where everyone wins and gets self-esteem points. There is a lot of money put into post-secondary academic performance.

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"Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are even incapable of forming such opinions." - Albert Einstein

"Wise men talk because they have something to say; fools, because they have to say something." - Plato