Tookie Williams: no clemency
 

Is no one else talking about this?... seems like an important decision.

No clemency for Tookie

I'm not sure what to make of Schwarzenegger's decision here. I go back and forth, but the hours before Tookie is executed are dwindling. As if I could make a difference.

I guess I feel like he *has* earned something, even if it's just a pardon from the death sentence and the right to live the rest of his life in prison. I don't think he should be let out of jail by any means, but my god, what IS the point of the correctional system if it doesn't give room for people who ARE reforming? :|

He's being executed for the crimes that he committed... not for the person that he's become...

The nobel prize nomination is a nice touch... but truthfully anyone could be nominated for the nobel prize...

i've got to agree with maleficent. he was this person when he committed the crimes...people change, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they did previously. oh, and i voted yes.

Uh, he is living out the rest of his life in prison.

Ah, but clemency doesn't mean he wouldn't be responsible for his crimes. It just means he wouldn't die for them. Nothing would change in terms of responsibility; he would remain in jail. He would still be held accountable.

I guess I have a hard time with the death penalty, especially in cases like this.

The guy formed one of the most violent gangs there is... He executed people in cold blood -for a measly 100 dollars... When he first got to prison, he was responsible for a lot of attacks on other prisoners and rapes of prisoners...

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him...

I don't care eitherway if the guy get executed.
Even if he's not guilty for the crimes he was convicted on
He's guilty of many others

I'm just watching for the riots to start.
wondering if we will see the protests turn to insanity.

Maybe for me it's less about the person and more about the death penalty in general. I guess I am working it out as I think through this. Hell, I don't even know what I would vote, but I have my leanings.

I guess I am surprised that there are so few on TFP who are against capital punishment.

Give the European and Canadian members a chance to weigh in... :)

I'm against the death penalty in all cases, so I don't think he should be executed. At the same time, I don't see anything special about Mr.Williams other than that he has some celebrity friends, so it would have been ridiculous to offer him clemency without offering it to every other inmate.

The only problem I have with the death penalty
is the way it is handled in some cases.
I believe it should apply to cases where the evidence
is undisputable, such as DNA, video ect.
Tookies case can be disputable
however, his overall history is not
There are people on death row who shouldn't be there
Many others should be IMO

they're gonna kill him and I'm glad for it and the reasons are two-fold:

one - he deserves it.
two - there is going to be a riot over this, good opportunity to test some of my what if scenarios through watching an honest to goodness riot.


I believe he has changed as a person, I think he's done a lot of good, but that's between him and whatever god he believes in.

European: He is being executed for what he did, in my mind premeditated murder (as well as a few other crimes) provided the proof behind the conviction is complete (ie: they are most assuredly guilty not just mostly guilty) then the death penalty is the correct punishment, to remove the human rights of another is to remove them from yourself... I can't consider people who delibrately kill others (not war scenarios etc) to truly deserve human rights anymore. Look at the failed suicide bombers, the first thing they do is claim their human rights, which they denied to others, leave em to the crowd and justice would be done.

canadian here: i voted yes.

*applause*

He apologized years ago.

Nothing that I say or think on the subject matters whatsoever. I can get up on my soapbox and rant about the death penalty, or rehabilitation, or any of the many things I believe regarding this case, but in the end he will die in three hours. Nothing short of an extremely successful armed revolt will prevent that, and there isn't enough support for that to happen. All we can do is either silently or vocally condone this, or to silently or vocally disagree with those in power who couldn't care less about what we think.

I don't think that he should be offered clemency. He killed. There is no doubt that he didn't. It is great that he is sorry and has changed, but you can't unkill someone.

I can't say that I am against the death penalty. Do I wish that there was a better way? Yes, I do. But the only reason I am for the death penalty is because I have to pay for the criminals living their lives out in prison. I buy their meals, their clothes, pay their utilities. I know that living in prison isn't by far a luxury lifestyle, but I am still paying for it. I may not live in California, but I don't want to pay for this guy to live in prison for the rest of his life because he has changed.

Like I said, I wish there was a better way. Maybe the US should get an Austraila.

So what IS the point of a correctional system? when it actually works, and we still kill people... is it some need for revenge?

What are the ramifications of building a society on revenge? Where is the line between revenge and justice?

Is there room for grace?

say hallalujiah!!!

As a resident in Los Angeles, I strongly believe that there will be an armed revolt in the form of a new wave of rioting; unfortunately it won't change the fact that Tookie will indeed be dead. A lot of white people are going to die with Tookie tonight.

Maybe it's possible to unkill yourself?

Think about the message his death will send to criminals worldwide: If you're convicted, you're dead. No ifs, ands, or buts. That means you can kill as many people as you like and the only thing that might happen is your sentence will be sooner rather than later. Martin Luther King, Jr. himself said, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." Please don't take this personally, but I think it has left you blind to the fact that prisons are a necessity; not only to keep the 'bad' separated from the 'good,' but also to rehabilitate. If rehabilitation is not an option, we might as well do away with police altogether and hand every citizen a sword and a gun.

We're well on our way to anarchy. Maybe that's what we need, though.

Just so you know, it actually costs more to execute a prisoner on average than it does to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives. We could change that if we were okay with killing more innocent people, but I don't think most of us are.

Whatever happened to "SWIFT and just." he shouldn't have been given the chance to become a different person. If he was going to be excecuted for his crimes, it should have been done 20 years ago. How's a death sentence 20 years after the fact a deterrent,which I think is the most compelling argument for capital punishment. That and people like that dude who molested and buried that little girl alive in Florida. Letting guilty people out who go on to kill more innocent people seems to happen with far greater frequency than putting innocent people to death.

Anway - something about the whole situation is unsettling to me. I chose "I don't know"

Do you pro-executionists think these guys should also be put to death?

(Re)former gang members

Seems like their case is the same as Tookie's, 'cept they didn't get caught. I can't imagine anyone on this board condemning these people to death, and yet you condemn Tookie.

Again I don't have a clear answer for any of this. Tookie will die in a few hours, and the debate will go on. But my question is, how do you define reformation? What role does revenge play in our justice system?

I voted "no"

I just don't see how society will be served by his death. Here we have a person with some capacity to effect positive change in the world, and we're going to extinguish him.

His death may or may not bring comfort to the relative of his victims, but it's definately going to demoralize those who he has pledged to help. That's a lost opportunity and a real shame.

Since you mentioned it, my vision of an ideal world (stopping short of a utopia, assuming that crime still happens,) is one in which the death penalty is unnecessary because potential perpetrators of violent acts are killed by their intended victims before they are able to do harm. In this world, I would imagine that violent crime would drop sharply. Realistically, I thnk that well over three quarters of people are not mentally capable of killing another person and that therefore we have what we do now.

Although I don't approve of the death penalty and am firmly against this execution, I think that it's unfortunate that Tookie and his cohorts were not the ones who died in that robbery 26 years ago.

They didn't get caught......there is the point.
Where is the evidence of murder?
How are these people simular? except being in a gang

I lived in a bad neighborhood,
associated with my neighbors
am I complisit with their crimes?

It's about detainment/confinement
do you want pyscopath killers
who would kill you for a dime
living next door?

Precisely. It's about confinement, not about death. Did anyone say this guy was gonna be living next door to you? The point of the clemency would have been for him to be imprisoned for life, not to be put to death. He would not have walked free.

Or any other democracy, Mal. We are the last Democracy to stand by capital punishment in the "civilized" world.

Mal knows me well from a prior time when I would have gladly participated in the killing of a murderer. Ten years have passed since then and I am greatful that I never had the chance to exact my "revenge."

How is it that we remain the last democracy to champion the death of an inmate as justice, but an abortion of a zygote is equated with murder? Can anyone explain this contradiction in pro-life terms to me?

My personal belief is that our government should not assume God-like powers over life or death, in some sort of old testiment justice of eye-for-an-eye. More importantly, the constitution spells out the right of the states over the federal government. I am adament about reducing federal government intrusion, and I am fully in support of state rights to self-government.

While I understand the point of people who are against capital punishment, I see no other alternative.

It's not like people are being executed for trivial things - this guy took it upon himself to remove people from this existence. IMO, he lost all of his rights as a citizen at that point. I see no probs with executing him on the spot. Case closed, sentenced handed... bullet in the brain. Save the time and money.

People might argue, "What right does anyone have to take HIS life?" Well, either way, he's in prison for life. His life is already over except for the fact he's still conscious. Why keep such a being alive?

Of course, there are people in prison for life for other less important crimes (such as drug smuggling), but that argument of "exessive sentencing" is for another thread.

He should have been the man that he is now before he bothered to kill those people.

Be the change you want in the world.

And yet, he will be killed in a few hours. How does a nation founded in christianity, not give any value to the life of of this man, and ignore that Williams' justice is in the hands of God? When did we receive the order of executioner?

I have no respect for this man, but he will be judged and so shall we.

Because church and state are separate?

We became executioner the very second he committed a crime against society and lost his rights as a citizen.

[edit]
I think if everything was REALLY based on Christian ideals, all a murderer would have to do to be given a second chance at life is "repent to Jesus" and pretend to be sorry. I don't think that'd be such a good idea!

Thank you.

Hey a guy faced with death turns a new leaf?

Gee go figure.

Don't care, the only thing unfortunate is it took so long to execute him.

Uh, no. We have legally chosen to renew the death penalty, and he never lost his rights as a citizen. I don't get your point, unless you have confused my personal viewpoint with law.

I would like an explanation about why the death of a zygote is murder, but the death of a man is not. It's a very simple question that doesn't involve church v. state.

I don't think the death of a zygote is murder, nor do I think the execution of this man is murder, so I think you're askin the wrong person ;)

I voted I dont know because it depends largely on the people he killed. He is worth more to society alive than he is dead because of the way he has changed his life. For that reason his murders of other gang members are pardonable because they chose to put themselves in a position to be murdered. However, murders of innocents cannot be excused, and those he should die for regardless of the restitution hes made.

...and I think he did lose his rights, otherwise he wouldn't be getting executed. People who murder should have their rights taken away. They defied the very society that's giving them rights, so why should he retain em?

It's just my opinion that at the point when he chose to take someone else's life, the life of his own was not his anymore and instead is left up to the state to decide. If they decide execution, then so be it. I just don't understand why there was such a long wait. I mean.. how long does it take to inject someone?

he chose a path to walk and committed the crimes with full knowledge of what may happen. he removed at least 4 people who contribute to society from the face of the earth and his only contribution then was the founding of the Crips. in essence we are trading those 4 lives for his 1 -- which i don't even think is fair at all.

those arguing against execution saying that his execution doesn't bring back the dead. but in the same sense, if i ran a stop light and caused this huge accident, me paying fines and what not does nothing to reverse the effects, why pay? are we going to do away with the whole system because it doesn't reverse anything? no. it was the understood consequence of my action and i have to learn to deal with them.

he killed at least 4 people. are we for sure he has conformed? we talk about the potential positive effects he may have on society if released but have we stopped to think about the negative effects?

keeping him in prison for the rest of his life? in an already crowded prison system?

The appeals process is unnecessarily lengthly in many cases but the system of appeals is needed because we rely on an uninformed jury of peers to decide the guilt of a person in life or death situations. The opinions of the layman must be vetted by experts in order for the death penalty to be humane and have a place in a civilized society

while I still stand by my statement, it doesn't mean that I don't want him to get stayed from his appointment with death.

In my opinion the death penalty is a deterrent to some people for some crimes just like incarceration. While it doesn't bring back those that were intitially killed, I do feel that it does serve a purpose for example.

If you don't punish someone exactly for something that can make someone think twice before acting and you don't follow through with it, then why bother to punish them at all?

Our justice system allows for multiple pleas to a higher court for any number of reasons. If you might think that I am some pinky knee-jerk liberal, please let me assure you otherwise. My vision is no death penalty, but life in prison will not be a place anyone would choose to go. Seems much more of a "deterent" than living another 20 some years or so playing the legal system. Cheaper for the tax payers, as well.

Eh, what do I know?

A Zygote or anything there after is defenseless and innocent. Tookie is a murderer by his own actions, he made a concious choice. By more of his own actions, sending a ripple effect through all of our existence, the man has allowed/facilitated/committed unspeakable evils to be committed. At this point it is of no matter whether he lives or dies.

1) obviously there should be a consequence for killing someone. I just don't think killing the murderer is the right consequence. I am not saying to do away with the whole system, man... don't be dramatic. I am saying this part of the system, the death penalty, is not effective except for to carry out revenge and demonstrate further violence.

2) there is no talk about him being released. Where are people getting this idea? And yes prisons are overcrowded but that's a lousy excuse to kill someone. It is indeed cheaper to imprison someone for life than to kill by lethal injection.

hmmm... as it stands there's lots on boths sides there, some states don't have death penalty and others do, and yet there are plenty of criminals on death row or lifetime sentences.

All I know is that I have to foot the bill either way.

Cyn, my "thank you" was sincere. I am not certain that you took it that way.
:(

I did think you said it with all sincerity. I realized on reading it that I never took a stand or stated my view on this subject.

We agree on many levels here.

I realize that you stated "some people", but I disagree that the death penalty serves as a deterrent in any significant number of cases. I cant imagine any case where a person hasnt committed murder for fear of the death penalty yet they would commit the crime in the face of life in prison.

The death penalty is more societies way of enacting revenge against predators, not preventing future deaths.

for you it's not a deterrent, for some people that I have met in my lifetime it has, just like in Singapore people I met were afraid to be caned.

I imagine those places where your hand gets cut off for stealing, that's a great deterrent for some people.

It doesn't have to be any significant number, since the reason we vet out the whole appeals process is to ensure that not 1 innocent person is killed by mistake. One seems to be enough most of the time.

Another sincere thank you.

We can discuss the pros and cons of our capital punishment law, but none of us are actually facing it. I would like to believe that we are better than the few nations left that have a death penalty statute.

Mostly, I believe we have lost much in world opinion because of this and other abuses of human rights. I would like to see my country take the moral high ground I always believed in.

Ayup, just call me Pollyanna.

I agree, which is why we should bring back torture prior to the execution, none of this painless crap.

There are exceptions to every rule but I dont believe that the death penalty is a deterrent to most people that commit murder. I know a few people that have committed multiple murders and none of them consider the death penalty to be a worse sentance than life in prison, perhaps thats related to the reason they chose to commit murder. I would be interested in hearing about the people that made the decision not to commit murder based on the death penalty.

Fear of punishment is universal, but in the case of the death penalty we are discussing the fear of death being greater than the fear of life in prison. I am interested to know to what sort of person that distinction is material.

The death penalty has not proven to be a deterrent to murder in multiple studies over many years. The murderer that killed my employee is now getting 3 hots and a cot, and liking it.

I say hang the fuckers, it may not be a deterrent, but i'm a firm believer in revenge.

None of this bullshit spending years on death row either, you get sentanced to death, they schedule a time within a few months, boom, off the gallows you go.

That i think may have a better effect.

The death sentance only needs to discourage one person from murdering another and it's done it's job as far as i'm concerned.

I wouldn't take another life and I wouldn't allow my government to take one on my behalf.

My only take on this whole matter is this-

People always say prison is supposed to be more about rehabilitation than punishment.

So here's my simple query: If jail is to rehabilitate, no matter how horrible the crime, and enough rehabilitation is reached to cause the person to become some sort of positively-contributing member of society... then why are we still killing him?

Let him die in jail, sure, but let him spend his remaining years CONTINUING to lead kids away from the pressures of gangs, to keep working for no money towards keeping children out of the mindsets that put them into the gang scene.

You can talk about how he should die in jail for his crimes in the past, but if this case shows us anything, it's that the notions of prison being for "rehabilitation", which many of us know to be bullshit anyway, are totally unfounded. He's doing community service work- GOOD community service work. Working to turn around the harm he caused before. Is there no benefit to be gotten from free community service that helps others from following in his footsteps? From him saying, look, I'm gonna die in here. And for what? Because I thought i was cool in a gang? Have more respect for yourself than that.

Now, the message is, no matter how much you try to do good, people will only see the past, and just simply don't give two shits about your many, many years of positive service to the world. I don't give a damn who you are, or what you did- when you spend so many years writing books and doing all this work to try and keep other generations of kids from making your mistake, teaching them to be better people, I think you should at least not get shrugged off like a common fucking criminal who never tried to give something back.

stevie667, carrying out the sentence quickly would be ok if the person is always guilty.

A problem with the death sentence is the person is not always guilty.
A prosecuting team wields great power. The power and resources of the state.
Like the man just killed said "I don't see no millionares on death row".

I decided to read more on this, and the more I read the more I wonder why anyone gives crap if this piece of human debris lives or dies.

I can't even find where he says he is sorry for what he did, not that I would care that much.

This is precisely why I converted from being a staunch supporter of the death penalty, to opposing it.
Guarantee me that everyone put to death, by the state, is in fact, 100% guilty. Not beyond a "reasonable doubt", but beyond any shadow of a doubt...then maybe.

There are instances that do shake my resolve. For example, cases where children are abducted, raped and killed. If anyone truly "deserves" to die...then it would be, in my opinion, those that can commit such crimes. But again, I need to be shown beyond any shadow of a doubt that it was this man that actually did it. Not just because it was easy for the police to make a case, and the guy couldn't get descent defense counsel.

Analog has given one of the best reasons why I am against the death penalty.

There are more reasons but this is one of the best.

Frankly... I don't know.
On the one hand, I don't see the death penalty as revenge, but rather a safety mechanism for the masses. There are some people who are just never going to be safe - they are always going to be killers/rapists/maiming whatever. Those people... just kill them. Get them out of our society pronto.

On the other hand... what if they're not actually guilty?

If a police officer catches someone red-handed - they see that person raping someone and she's obviously not consenting - just shoot the fucker and be done with it, right? But that would require depending on the police officer's ability to make an objective decision. It's the same problem with a jury. I don't trust them to be able to cut through the defense and the prosecution's bullshit.

You know they have image consultants? People giving advice on how to dress, how to act, to gain the sympathy and/or trust of the jury?
How is that a fair and just process anymore, if it ever was?

One more time: He HAS been out of society. That is the whole point of incarceration; removal from society. If he had been granted clemency, he would not have walked free from jail. He would have remained in jail for life.

This is the 3rd or 4th post I have made to correct the idea (in this thread) that if you get rid of the death penalty, then you get rid of all punishment for crimes. Look man, the death penalty is NOT the whole system. It is one of the bad parts of the system, if you ask me. Precisely because of what flat5 and others have said; there is NO guarantee of guilt. Money has a big impact on these kinds of decisions... again, no rich people are sitting on death row.

And thank you, Analog, for addressing that issue at last... what is the point of our prison system if it doesn't give credit to prisoners who DO reform and try to change their ways?

Frankly, the blood-thirstiness of some people on this thread shocks me.

... anyway, he's gone now. They had trouble finding the vein, apparently... took 12 minutes to administer the injection last night. Jesus.

It is belived he ordered hits on people while in jail. Just a fyi.

Key words: "It is believed." What is your source? I think it's also crucial to know *when* he ordered those hits, if at all... early in his prison term? If it happened in the last 5-10 years, well, I'd be willing to listen. But a news article is not going to convince me. Too much bias.

Also, if people knew he was ordering hits from jail, then why did they let him make contact with anyone? If true, then it's another flaw in the system.

Hmmm, I dunno.

Is prison really an effective rehabilitator? If it is, then yes I think he should be spared. If it isn't, then I don't really care whether he lives or dies. His supposed "enlightening" and finding God does not affect me one bit. Everyone finds God in prison.

I know a guy who has been in and out of jail many times and has been in prison once. He apparently found God, but is he rehabilitated? Hell no. He just got arrested again last week for armed robbery. I kinda think prison is a joke. I know another guy who got 7 years in prison for dealing coke. Was he reformed when he got out? Hell no. And according to him, neither are his 12 other buddies who got arrested with him.

In fact, the guy who ratted him out got only 2 years, when he committed the same freakin crime. Is he rehabilitated? Highly doubtful. People say all kinds of bullshit when they are faced with their actions. Talk is cheap; there are too many pieces of shit who lie through their teeth to get away with stuff, and a lot of times they do.

But then again I'm a bitter and jaded product these times, so what do I know.

Didn't read the whole thread, but...

You'd have a point if he apologized for the murders he commited. He didn't do that in what you quoted.

edit - and "An eye for an eye leaves the world blind" was said by Mohandas Gandhi, if I recall correctly.

Oh yeah, I forgot to comment on that too.. He didn't apologize for the murders.. he kinda sorta apologized for starting one of the most violent gangs in the US.

Because kinda sorta apologizing for something like that means a lot. How about telling the pigs what you know about being a Crip leader you stupid fuck?

I'm not saying he hasn't been. My post was meant to illustrate that I am torn on the subject. Life in prison is a waste if they're not being rehabilitated... and let's face it, most of them aren't.

Like it's been said, lots of people sing differently when they're face with actual consequences. But once those consequences are dealt with (get out on probation), they suddenly stop caring. That's my problem with the Tookie thing - sure, he's so helpful now. I wonder how long he's been trying to get out of the death penalty. I honestly believe that some people will never change - most of us do not change our basic natures significantly over our lifetimes. Thus, why not remove the problem rather than allow it to continue to affect us?

On the other hand...what if they actually are innocent??

And that made me cringe just reading it. So it's not like I'm sold on the death penalty either. It's a complex issue. I don't believe there is an easy answer. But that answer has got to involve prison policy reform - it's clear that it's not helping/working/anything right about now.

Jess--I think you've got it. That's the whole point, that the US prison policy is screwed up these days. We have to take people out of society when they break our rules, but once we remove them, we have no idea what to do with them. Maybe most of them don't reform. So it IS a waste, then. But what are the other options?

If, as you say, most people never change over their lifetimes... well, that's pretty depressing. We might as well kill any criminal as soon as they are "found guilty," since even if they go to prison they'll always be a corrupt criminal and a scourge on society.

I don't know if I can say that no one is capable of reform.

(Btw, I didn't mean to accuse you of being blood-thirsty; that was aimed at others who have voiced very clear opinions on "hanging the fuckers" and whatnot... was very surprised to hear that on TFP, I guess.)

I do not favor the death penalty. And before everyone points it out, yes I have killed as a soldier in time of war. Everyone can change their point of view...

I disapprove of the death penalty in general. And the prison system still has a lot of kinks to work out, too.

i'm not a big fan of the death penalty
but i don't think indirectly watching the news qualified me to make a decision on this one

I've never favored the death penalty as it is currently practiced. I think it should be extremely rare. Tim McVeigh would get the penalty. Scott King would not. In cases which involve a tremendous loss of life and an anti-social hatred of society, I would favor the death penalty.

Karla Faye's jealous rage killing? No. Tookie? Yes. Just based on his founding of the Crips alone, he started a genocidal army over half a million strong that has exacted a tremendous loss of life and has practiced an anti-social hatred of society.

As he "reformed", he still maintained that he never murdered those four people. I strongly suspect that in reality, those are the only four cases that were tried. I would bet there are probably several dozen that we never heard about.

Two problems that I have from the previous posts:

The fines you pay go towards repairing the damages you caused, paying the police officers, firemen and ambulances and yes, also punishment. Punishment is punishment, yes, but there are varying degrees for a reason. While I understand your analogy, I don't think it works in this case. You can't equate the punishment received for running a red light with the punishment received for murder.

When an inmate is in prison, it is not for rehabilitation - they are held there awaiting their death. It just happens that they're in the same building as other inmates who are, supposedly, there for punishment AND rehabilitation. Whether or not that works...

Tookie just happened to be rehabilitated while he was awaiting his sentence. The fact remains that he was there waiting to die, not to be rehabilitated. That he was rehabilitated apparently has no weight in the matter, as evidenced by the fact that his sentence is being carried out.

I would argue that he could have a greater good on society if granted clemency than by being some kind of example - a weak one at that. If you murder someone, you will be sentenced to death... in 20 years or so? Not very effective, if you ask me. A review of the system seems to be in order. There must be a better way, if for nothing else than efficiency.

-Tamerlain

I don't think anybody, including the state, has the right to kill somebody unless in self-defense. I don't see capital punishment as serving any useful purpose to society whatsoever, and it violates the sanctity of human life. I also find it sickening, and appalling that medical experts are involved in facilitating executions.

And that's all independent of the fact that 95% of all defendants can't afford a lawyer, that executions are raced based (if your victim is white you're much more likely to be executed than if your victim is black), that capital punishment does not deter and is more likely to increase the murder rate (to eliminate witnesses), that's it's less costly to society not to execute, etc. etc.

I agree 100%. I'm serious, too.

I don't even think lethal injection is that much of a deterrent because of how painless it is.

Hell, the first injection is 5000 mg of pentothol.. 100-150 mg is typically used in surgery, so you know the person is OUT. I think 5000mg is even lethal itself. In any case, he felt nothing and didn't know what hit him.

The only pain he felt was the psychological effect of, "in 30 minutes, you'll be dead."

"Well, I won't even know I'll be dying, so I guess it doesn't matter." doesn't seem like much of a deterrent for me. If I REALLY wanted to kill someone, was willing to deal with the consequences, and all I had to face was lethal injection, that'd be cake. On the other hand if I had a more... nasty way of dying, such as electrocution... screw that. I'd skip the crime.

http://www.johnandkenshow.com/archiv...victim-photos/


The photos of the murder victims...for what it's worth. Just a heads-up: while I found them to be only mildly gruesome (and I'm somewhat squeamish), they are shots of the murdered people. One shows a disfigured face (shot there maybe?). I believe it's the last of the 3 people mentioned.

Amen. Most everything I'd want to say has been said here, but Amen. And if that's not enough, let's be "greedy." The death penalty costs more than life in prison, and the only way for it to cost less is to reduce the checks and balances that help uncover innocent people who were found guilty. Like the over a dozen people discovered in Illinois not long ago. Of course, the really sad thing about that is that the innocence of a few of those people was uncovered by private investigative work, not the normal means available to the prisoners.

While I'm by no means squeamish I didn't need to see that last one. Of course I looked before you edited.

Ummmm, they're still dying.

Hey now, lethal injection is a "humane" form of punishment! :rolleyes: *cough*bullshit*cough*

Sorry about that Ustwo. It slipped my mind when I first posted, and I added the edit there within 20 seconds or so. Apparently not fast enough, though. Again, my apologies.

So, what is the point of posting these photos? No one is saying that these people aren't dead. The questions are whether or not Tookie was indeed guilty, and also whether or not capital punishment is a fair and effective (not vengeful, since that's not what justice is supposed to be) punisment.

Exactly. Death Row is not in any way intended as a place of rehabilitation, it's a holding tank.

I am greatly saddened by the fact that prison - yes, supposed to be a place of rehab --is absolutely not doing *anything whatsofreaking ever* to rehab offenders. I understand it's a place of punishment as well, but punish offenders by making them contribute to society somehow, in unpleasant, manual-labor, whatever type ways. Locking them up and letting them rot is a complete waste, and accomplishes less than nothing. I do think America needs a wide-scale prison reform, and I can't imagine what in the world could bring that to pass. :(

I used to be all for the death penalty, but my views on that, like on many things I saw in black and white in my youth, is changing.

No problem, I should have known better, but after 'generic' "young man in pool of blood", and "older woman in bloody jeans" I wasn't expected "woman missing 1/3rd of face".

Buh bye Tookie, may you find your just reward.

There are attempts made to rehabilitate. My mom has taught in several prisons, and teaches them all kinds of things - from ABC's to history. It's just that on average, they just consider this "the price of doing business". It's not a deterrent. What do they always say about addicts and going to rehab centers? It won't work unless the person is dedicated to changing their lives. It's the same for prisoners - they are just hanging out, getting their 3 squares a day, and will go back to doing the same shit all over again. Because they don't want to change.

However, if prison wasn't so easy, perhaps they'd be less eager.

Rehab was an experiment of 19th century America (its where we get the name penitentiary, as in doing penance) it has failed so far. I'm all for punishment modeling again, though if you wanted to use them as a form of slave labor I have no problems with that.

There is a time in ones life where the values of society can be instilled. I think few people are just geneticly 'bad' (though with some violent types I think this is true), but the problem is that by the time you get to prison many are beyond that stage. At this point we just lock them up so they can't hurt anyone else, and in some cases, kill them.

How is that one prison in Arizona working out? They meals to feed the guard dogs costs more than to feed the prisoners. Also instead of being inside nice buildings, many prisoners are held in out door tent cities where they also do several hours of manual labor in the blistering heat. That sounds pretty legit to me.

I may have been unclear...I don't equate Death Row with prison (and prison's need for rehab). I also have no problem with punishment, but since most of the people in prison will be eventually released, it would benefit us all to instill some behavior modifications, via negative reinforcement, or rehab, or a combo, whatever works.

This is true, and inescapable.

Welp, being against the death penalty in general, I can't agree with the execution.

In particular, if someone is genuinely doing good works to atone for their past sins, even if the scales don't balance out, I favour clemency. I see the death penalty as serving no purpose other than revenge, whereas if a person is doing good things for society to some degree, that does serve a purpose.

Tookie never apologized or atoned for the "sins" or "high crimes" of which he was found guilty, that being the brutal execution style killings of four people.

He got what he deserved. Sad part is, it took so long to give him what the jury of his peer's decreed.

The emprical evidence indicates that the death penatly is a short-lived deterrent, to the extent it deters at all.

Murders drop for a short period (1 to 2 months after) and then rise to higher levels thereafter. If anything, it seems to indicate that the death penalty is counter-productive. It isn't even a wash due to the fact that murders increase after the decrease.


But, having met many of Tookie's supporters in person, and knowing a handful of people who have worked with him, interviewed him, and know him as a person, as well as being on the floor of a number of people involved in the innocence project and other criminologists, in general, I need to point out the three main categories of beliefs surrounding this case:

1) people who believe in a general notion of punishment for rehabilitation.
These people believe that our sysem of punishment ought not to be based on retribution. They are general opponents of the death penatly. It could be based on practical reasons or moral reasons, but Tookie is less important to them than the overarching notion of abolishing the death penatly.

2) people who believe in Tookie's personal redemption
he ought to be given a chance to live based on his changing personal views and behavior, to these people. Most often, I find the people who have personally met him to hold this view.

3) people who are supporters of the message he sends to young children regarding gang violence. These people may or may not believe in the effectiveness of the death penatly as a deterrent, but they know first hand young boys who have mentioned Tookie as deciding factors in their desire to leave gang life. My wife, who works as a youth counselor as her day job, first learned of Tookie from a young boy. Whether his influence is overstated, or his creation of the crips is apocryphal (my personal belief), is immaterial in this portion of the debate. The reality is he has some influence, but unanswered is how much. I'm unaware of any studies on the issue (possible master's or doctorate thesis plug for budding criminologists, btw). One must decide for oneself whether his influence warrants clemency from death.


People may suscribe to one or all of these categories of beliefs.
Personally, I am opposed to the death penatly in general on both moral and utilitarian grounds. A close second to that is my belief that Tookie does create at least some social good due to his anti-gang messages. Lastly, and very distant as a fact to be honest, is the notion that he is reformed as a person. Not that I don't believe him, just that it isn't really relevent to me given my thoughts on the first two reasons.

Finally, I thinkan interesting scientific/biological case can be made that Tookie wasn't the same person as the one who comitted the crimes when he was a young man. If his personality has changed and if all the cells in his body have been replaced by new ones after nearly 30 years (and I'm aware of evidence suggesting this is so), then one could reasonably say that he wasn't the same person at all when he went to his death last night. Of course, this brings up matthew330's (valid, in my opinion) point that he shouldn't have been allowed to live long enough to become a different person. So there you go,

I voted that he should have received clemency.

BTW,

I also think that if the victims' families needed this 30 years later to get over the pain and etc., then they have deeper issues they need help with. This is not intended to be a slight on them by any means, just that what they perceive to relieve their pain will over time in no way compensate and may even increase their feelings of guilt/pain or whatnot. Revenge in my experience certainly feels good, but I don't know how effective it is as a healing mechanism and certainly not after such a protracted period of time.

And, ustwo, rehabilitation has not been utizilzed in our penal system...and not in any correctional system to date, that I am aware of. While penitentiary does stem from the word, pennance, it definately did not equal rehab. Pennance meant sitting in a single cell praying to god until one's death (the usual punishment for all sorts of crimes in our early days of punishment). It certainly had no notions of forgiveness coupled with release into the community as a reformed person attached to it.

elphaba,

3 hots and a cot is jail time.

If he's been convicted and sentenced, he's in prison...which would be 3 smokes and a poke.

...just to add to your lexiCON and hopefully give you a slight smile...


(sorry folks, I read the first 1 1/2 pages, started answering some things, and then continued by reading backwards...)

Smooth, thank you for the excellent additions to this thread.

Quite a large one actually. :D Would it be so.

That's only sad if you have absolutely no interest in keeping innocent people from being put to death. Far too many people in my state and others have been proven innocent while sitting on death row, and many of them for quite a long time.

Didn't DNA testing prove several death row prisoner's innocent, and a moratorium on capital punishment was instituted by Illinois' governor? I would hope that Texas would follow that lead.