Tookie Williams: no clemency - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

abaya · 12-12-2005, 03:52 PM

Is no one else talking about this?... seems like an important decision.

No clemency for Tookie

Quote:

SAN FRANCISCO - Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger refused to block the execution early Tuesday of Stanley Tookie Williams, rejecting the notion that the founder of the murderous Crips gang had atoned for his crimes and found redemption on death row.

With a federal court refusing to grant a reprieve, Williams, 51, was set to die by injection at San Quentin Prison just after midnight for murdering four people during two 1979 holdups.

Williams' case became one of the nation's biggest death-row cause celebres in decades. It set off a nationwide debate over the possibility of redemption on death row, with Hollywood stars and capital punishment foes arguing that Williams had made amends by writing children's books about the dangers of gangs.

But Schwarzenegger suggested that Williams' supposed change of heart was not genuine, noting that the inmate had not owned up to his crimes or shown any real remorse for the countless killings committed by the Crips.

"Is Williams' redemption complete and sincere, or is it just a hollow promise?" Schwarzenegger wrote less than 12 hours before the execution. "Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Williams' supporters were disappointed with the governor's refusal to commute the death sentence to life in prison without parole.

"Too often I hear the governor and many who are around him talk about his values system," said NAACP President Bruce S. Gordon. "In this particular case, those values seem to be cast aside. There is absolutely no recognition given to redemption."

Williams stood to become the 12th person executed in California since lawmakers reinstated the death penalty in 1977.

He was condemned in 1981 for gunning down convenience store clerk Albert Owens, 26, at a 7-Eleven in Whittier and killing Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Williams claimed he was innocent.

Just before the governor announced his decision, the 9th U.S. Circuit of Appeals denied Williams' request for a reprieve, saying there was no "clear and convincing evidence of actual innocence." His lawyers planned to take their case to the U.S. Supreme Court.

The last California governor to grant clemency was Ronald Reagan, who spared a mentally infirm killer in 1967. Schwarzenegger — a Republican who has come under fire from members of his own party as too accommodating to liberals — rejected clemency twice before during his two years in office.

In denying clemency to Williams, Schwarzenegger said that the evidence of his guilt was "strong and compelling," and he dismissed suggestions that the trial was unfair.

Schwarzenegger also pointed out the brutality of the crimes, noting that Williams allegedly said about one of the killings, "You should have heard the way he sounded when I shot him." According to the governor's account, Williams then made a growling noise and laughed for five to six minutes.

In addition, the governor noted that Williams dedicated his 1998 book "Life in Prison" to a list of figures that included the black militant George Jackson — "a significant indicator that Williams is not reformed and that he still sees violence and lawlessness as a legitimate means to address societal problems."

Schwarzenegger also noted that there is "little mention or atonement in his writings and his plea for clemency of the countless murders committed by the Crips following the lifestyle Williams once espoused. The senseless killing that has ruined many families, particularly in African-American communities, in the name of the Crips and gang warfare is a tragedy of our modern culture."

Williams and a friend founded the Crips in Los Angeles in 1971. Authorities say it is responsible for hundreds of deaths, many of them in battles with the rival Bloods for turf and control of the drug trade.

Among the celebrities who took up Williams' cause were Jamie Foxx, who played the gang leader in a cable movie about Williams; rapper Snoop Dogg, himself a former Crip; Sister Helen Prejean, the nun depicted in "Dead Man Walking"; Bianca Jagger; and former "M A S H" star Mike Farrell. During Williams' 24 years on death row, a Swiss legislator, college professors and others nominated him for the Nobel Prizes in peace and literature.

"If Stanley Williams does not merit clemency," defense attorney Peter Fleming Jr. asked, "what meaning does clemency retain in this state?"

The impending execution resulted in feverish preparations over the weekend by those on both sides of the debate, with the California Highway Patrol planning to tighten security outside the prison.

A group of about three dozen death penalty protesters were joined by the Rev. Jesse Jackson as they marched across the Golden Gate Bridge after dawn Monday en route to the gates of San Quentin, where they were expected to rally with hundreds of people.

At least publicly, the person apparently least occupied with his fate seemed to be Williams himself.

"Me fearing what I'm facing, what possible good is it going to do for me? How is that going to benefit me?" Williams said in a recent interview. "If it's my time to be executed, what's all the ranting and raving going to do?"

I'm not sure what to make of Schwarzenegger's decision here. I go back and forth, but the hours before Tookie is executed are dwindling. As if I could make a difference.

I guess I feel like he *has* earned something, even if it's just a pardon from the death sentence and the right to live the rest of his life in prison. I don't think he should be let out of jail by any means, but my god, what IS the point of the correctional system if it doesn't give room for people who ARE reforming?

maleficent · 12-12-2005, 03:56 PM

He's being executed for the crimes that he committed... not for the person that he's become...

The nobel prize nomination is a nice touch... but truthfully anyone could be nominated for the nobel prize...

radioguy · 12-12-2005, 04:01 PM

i've got to agree with maleficent. he was this person when he committed the crimes...people change, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they did previously. oh, and i voted yes.

Coppertop · 12-12-2005, 04:02 PM

Uh, he is living out the rest of his life in prison.

abaya · 12-12-2005, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by radioguy

people change, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they did previously.

Ah, but clemency doesn't mean he wouldn't be responsible for his crimes. It just means he wouldn't die for them. Nothing would change in terms of responsibility; he would remain in jail. He would still be held accountable.

I guess I have a hard time with the death penalty, especially in cases like this.

maleficent · 12-12-2005, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

I guess I have a hard time with the death penalty, especially in cases like this.

The guy formed one of the most violent gangs there is... He executed people in cold blood -for a measly 100 dollars... When he first got to prison, he was responsible for a lot of attacks on other prisoners and rapes of prisoners...

I don't have a lot of sympathy for him...

alpha phi · 12-12-2005, 04:20 PM

I don't care eitherway if the guy get executed.
Even if he's not guilty for the crimes he was convicted on
He's guilty of many others

I'm just watching for the riots to start.
wondering if we will see the protests turn to insanity.

abaya · 12-12-2005, 04:30 PM

Maybe for me it's less about the person and more about the death penalty in general. I guess I am working it out as I think through this. Hell, I don't even know what I would vote, but I have my leanings.

I guess I am surprised that there are so few on TFP who are against capital punishment.

maleficent · 12-12-2005, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

I guess I am surprised that there are so few on TFP who are against capital punishment.

Give the European and Canadian members a chance to weigh in...

maximusveritas · 12-12-2005, 04:37 PM

I'm against the death penalty in all cases, so I don't think he should be executed. At the same time, I don't see anything special about Mr.Williams other than that he has some celebrity friends, so it would have been ridiculous to offer him clemency without offering it to every other inmate.

alpha phi · 12-12-2005, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Maybe for me it's less about the person and more about the death penalty in general. I guess I am working it out as I think through this. Hell, I don't even know what I would vote, but I have my leanings.

I guess I am surprised that there are so few on TFP who are against capital punishment.

The only problem I have with the death penalty
is the way it is handled in some cases.
I believe it should apply to cases where the evidence
is undisputable, such as DNA, video ect.
Tookies case can be disputable
however, his overall history is not
There are people on death row who shouldn't be there
Many others should be IMO

ziadel · 12-12-2005, 04:47 PM

they're gonna kill him and I'm glad for it and the reasons are two-fold:

one - he deserves it.
two - there is going to be a riot over this, good opportunity to test some of my what if scenarios through watching an honest to goodness riot.

I believe he has changed as a person, I think he's done a lot of good, but that's between him and whatever god he believes in.

AngelicVampire · 12-12-2005, 04:48 PM

European: He is being executed for what he did, in my mind premeditated murder (as well as a few other crimes) provided the proof behind the conviction is complete (ie: they are most assuredly guilty not just mostly guilty) then the death penalty is the correct punishment, to remove the human rights of another is to remove them from yourself... I can't consider people who delibrately kill others (not war scenarios etc) to truly deserve human rights anymore. Look at the failed suicide bombers, the first thing they do is claim their human rights, which they denied to others, leave em to the crowd and justice would be done.

MexicanOnABike · 12-12-2005, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Give the European and Canadian members a chance to weigh in...

canadian here: i voted yes.

ziadel · 12-12-2005, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mexicanonabike

canadian here: i voted yes.

*applause*

CityOfAngels · 12-12-2005, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Da Governator

"Without an apology and atonement for these senseless and brutal killings, there can be no redemption."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tookie Williams at [url

http://www.tookie.com/apology.html][/url]
Twenty-five years ago when I created the Crips youth gang with Raymond Lee Washington in South Central Los Angeles, I never imagined Crips membership would one day spread throughout California, would spread to much of the rest of the nation and to cities in South Africa, where Crips copycat gangs have formed. I also didn't expect the Crips to end up ruining the lives of so many young people, especially young black men who have hurt other young black men.

Raymond was murdered in 1979. But if he were here, I believe he would be as troubled as I am by the Crips legacy.

So today I apologize to you all -- the children of America and South Africa -- who must cope every day with dangerous street gangs. I no longer participate in the so-called gangster lifestyle, and I deeply regret that I ever did.

As a contribution to the struggle to end child-on-child brutality and black-on-black brutality, I have written the Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence children's book series. My goal is to reach as many young minds as possible to warn you about the perils of a gang lifestyle.

I am no longer "dys-educated" (disease educated). I am no longer part of the problem. Thanks to the Almighty, I am no longer sleepwalking through life.

I pray that one day my apology will be accepted. I also pray that your suffering, caused by gang violence, will soon come to an end as more gang members wake up and stop hurting themselves and others.

I vow to spend the rest of my life working toward solutions.

Amani (Peace),

Stanley "Tookie" Williams, Surviving Crips Co-Founder,
April 13, 1997

He apologized years ago.

MSD · 12-12-2005, 05:57 PM

Nothing that I say or think on the subject matters whatsoever. I can get up on my soapbox and rant about the death penalty, or rehabilitation, or any of the many things I believe regarding this case, but in the end he will die in three hours. Nothing short of an extremely successful armed revolt will prevent that, and there isn't enough support for that to happen. All we can do is either silently or vocally condone this, or to silently or vocally disagree with those in power who couldn't care less about what we think.

Rubyee · 12-12-2005, 06:02 PM

I don't think that he should be offered clemency. He killed. There is no doubt that he didn't. It is great that he is sorry and has changed, but you can't unkill someone.

I can't say that I am against the death penalty. Do I wish that there was a better way? Yes, I do. But the only reason I am for the death penalty is because I have to pay for the criminals living their lives out in prison. I buy their meals, their clothes, pay their utilities. I know that living in prison isn't by far a luxury lifestyle, but I am still paying for it. I may not live in California, but I don't want to pay for this guy to live in prison for the rest of his life because he has changed.

Like I said, I wish there was a better way. Maybe the US should get an Austraila.

abaya · 12-12-2005, 06:08 PM

So what IS the point of a correctional system? when it actually works, and we still kill people... is it some need for revenge?

What are the ramifications of building a society on revenge? Where is the line between revenge and justice?

Is there room for grace?

uncle phil · 12-12-2005, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ziadel

they're gonna kill him and I'm glad for it and the reasons are two-fold:

one - he deserves it.
two - there is going to be a riot over this, good opportunity to test some of my what if scenarios through watching an honest to goodness riot.

I believe he has changed as a person, I think he's done a lot of good, but that's between him and whatever god he believes in.

say hallalujiah!!!

CityOfAngels · 12-12-2005, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

...Nothing short of an extremely successful armed revolt...

As a resident in Los Angeles, I strongly believe that there will be an armed revolt in the form of a new wave of rioting; unfortunately it won't change the fact that Tookie will indeed be dead. A lot of white people are going to die with Tookie tonight.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubyee

It is great that he is sorry and has changed, but you can't unkill someone.

Maybe it's possible to unkill yourself?

Think about the message his death will send to criminals worldwide: If you're convicted, you're dead. No ifs, ands, or buts. That means you can kill as many people as you like and the only thing that might happen is your sentence will be sooner rather than later. Martin Luther King, Jr. himself said, "an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind." Please don't take this personally, but I think it has left you blind to the fact that prisons are a necessity; not only to keep the 'bad' separated from the 'good,' but also to rehabilitate. If rehabilitation is not an option, we might as well do away with police altogether and hand every citizen a sword and a gun.

We're well on our way to anarchy. Maybe that's what we need, though.

maximusveritas · 12-12-2005, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubyee

I can't say that I am against the death penalty. Do I wish that there was a better way? Yes, I do. But the only reason I am for the death penalty is because I have to pay for the criminals living their lives out in prison. I buy their meals, their clothes, pay their utilities. I know that living in prison isn't by far a luxury lifestyle, but I am still paying for it. I may not live in California, but I don't want to pay for this guy to live in prison for the rest of his life because he has changed.

Just so you know, it actually costs more to execute a prisoner on average than it does to keep them in prison for the rest of their lives. We could change that if we were okay with killing more innocent people, but I don't think most of us are.

matthew330 · 12-12-2005, 06:19 PM

Whatever happened to "SWIFT and just." he shouldn't have been given the chance to become a different person. If he was going to be excecuted for his crimes, it should have been done 20 years ago. How's a death sentence 20 years after the fact a deterrent,which I think is the most compelling argument for capital punishment. That and people like that dude who molested and buried that little girl alive in Florida. Letting guilty people out who go on to kill more innocent people seems to happen with far greater frequency than putting innocent people to death.

Anway - something about the whole situation is unsettling to me. I chose "I don't know"

abaya · 12-12-2005, 06:36 PM

Do you pro-executionists think these guys should also be put to death?

(Re)former gang members

Quote:

What happens to a gang member fortunate enough to grow old?
By Hugo Kugiya The Associated Press

LOS ANGELES — Entering middle age, Chico Brown lives in the world of children. He greets them at school, settles their fights, listens to their problems, watches them finish their homework, coaches their basketball teams, offers them rides home, reads their letters.

He has four of his own children, too, most of them nearly grown. But "they didn't know me," he says; for most of their lives, he was in prison.

Now a gang-intervention specialist, dedicated to keeping kids from following his path, Brown was once a notorious crack-cocaine dealer. He was a member of the Crips, the gang co-founded by Stanley "Tookie" Williams.

Williams is scheduled to be executed at 12:01 a.m. Tuesday. The state Supreme Court late Sunday refused to grant a stay of execution. He has appealed to a federal court and also has sought clemency from Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger.

His supporters say he has reformed in the 25 years since he was sentenced to death for the murders of four people — writing children's books, renouncing his gang ties, preaching an end to violence and gangs. To kill him, his supporters say, would be a crime; he is capable of great things.

Lost in the extremes of Williams' story are the stories of other men who grew up in the same place, in the same times, with many of the same problems and opportunities. Original gangsters like Williams are difficult to find. If they survived, they disappeared into the woodwork of unremarkable lives.

Some old Crips have reformed, men like Chico Brown. The old Crips who survived often look back at their youth with regret.

"I never saw families torn apart, parents hooked on crack, crack babies in intensive care, kids growing up without their parents ... " said Brown, 40. "There is an entire generation of people that don't own houses because they were on crack, or in prison."

The old Crips see gangs that have only grown more menacing since their day, even as rap music has glorified the culture that surrounds them.

In Los Angeles, there were about 750 gang-related murders last year, almost twice the number of murders the year Williams was arrested. The number of gang members nationwide has grown to more than 650,000.

But the people who were there at the start also remember the circumstances that led them to join the gang in the first place, and what it was like before crack and guns changed everything.

The Crips began in the early 1970s as a loose association of boys from Compton, neighborhood toughs with a reputation for being good with their hands. The fighting, the posing, the clothes, all seemed like good, clean fun at the time.

"It was the end of the Vietnam War, and there were a lot of young, delinquent youth without any kind of political or religious philosophy," said Wes McBride, a retired Los Angeles gang investigator who policed the early gangs. "The gangs grew out of poverty and despair."

Membership did not require much, just the willingness to fight and the desire to belong. "Everyone I knew was in a gang, for one minute," said Malcolm Dinwiddie, 50, a real-estate consultant who grew up in Compton. "[The Crips] were just the guys in the neighborhood, guys you talked to standing on the corner."

Like many boys in Compton, Ronnie Gibson's family was poor and he had a head full of conflicting ideas. His mother, a devout Christian, preached Jesus' love. The Black Panthers around the corner talked about the "blue-eyed devil," and his father left the family and married a white woman. It left Gibson, one of seven children, angry and distrustful.

Meanwhile all his boyhood friends at Centennial High School were in a gang, the Crips. They kept pit bulls, smoked dope, pimped, sold drugs. The ones with charisma and the gift of gab became the best drug dealers.

"We were not trying to kill people, but we weren't afraid to do it," said Gibson, 50.

He was in and out of jails, but because he was good at talking to cops, because he always hid his drugs and guns when they came around, he avoided prison. The police would always ask, "What are you doing hanging with these guys?"

A call to religion, in 1981, finally took him away from the thug life. He went to college, got married to a professor of biblical studies and started a ministry in Riverside. "It's not fate," Gibson said. "I call it amazing grace."

For Zane Smith, it may have been just a matter of maturity.

About 30 years ago, Smith joined a group of boys that became the Crips, and learned how to concoct and sell a drug called angel dust. It was around then, he said, that he helped recruit Tookie into the group.

Smith was imbued with a sense of racial injustice but had no cause to harness. He was the oldest of six children, born to a Filipino mother and black father, whom he resented for having abandoned the family when he was young.

He had a lot of anger, above-average athletic skills, a high tolerance for pain, a misguided sense of righteousness and a fascination with gangsters. His mother died in 1992, an event that he said moved him to try a more honest way of making a living. He tried producing records, running a trucking business. Now 51, he and his old high-school friend and fellow Crip Walter Wheeler — aka Big Squeak — offer to speak with and counsel kids.

"We're trying to redeem ourselves. We're trying to apologize for our youthful ignorance," Smith said. The gang, said Wheeler, was "something we did when we were children. Men today are following in the footsteps of little boys. That's what we were then."

More than anything, they wish they could erase the effects of what they did. "Our children's children are suffering from what we started," Smith said. "It really backfired on our culture. I'm ashamed of what it turned into."

Seems like their case is the same as Tookie's, 'cept they didn't get caught. I can't imagine anyone on this board condemning these people to death, and yet you condemn Tookie.

Again I don't have a clear answer for any of this. Tookie will die in a few hours, and the debate will go on. But my question is, how do you define reformation? What role does revenge play in our justice system?

fresnelly · 12-12-2005, 06:38 PM

I voted "no"

I just don't see how society will be served by his death. Here we have a person with some capacity to effect positive change in the world, and we're going to extinguish him.

His death may or may not bring comfort to the relative of his victims, but it's definately going to demoralize those who he has pledged to help. That's a lost opportunity and a real shame.

MSD · 12-12-2005, 06:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CityOfAngels

If rehabilitation is not an option, we might as well do away with police altogether and hand every citizen a sword and a gun.

Since you mentioned it, my vision of an ideal world (stopping short of a utopia, assuming that crime still happens,) is one in which the death penalty is unnecessary because potential perpetrators of violent acts are killed by their intended victims before they are able to do harm. In this world, I would imagine that violent crime would drop sharply. Realistically, I thnk that well over three quarters of people are not mentally capable of killing another person and that therefore we have what we do now.

Although I don't approve of the death penalty and am firmly against this execution, I think that it's unfortunate that Tookie and his cohorts were not the ones who died in that robbery 26 years ago.

alpha phi · 12-12-2005, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by abaya

Do you pro-executionists think these guys should also be put to death?

Seems like their case is the same as Tookie's, 'cept they didn't get caught. I can't imagine anyone on this board condemning these people to death, and yet you condemn Tookie.

Again I don't have a clear answer for any of this. Tookie will die in a few hours, and the debate will go on. But my question is, how do you define reformation? What role does revenge play in our justice system?

They didn't get caught......there is the point.
Where is the evidence of murder?
How are these people simular? except being in a gang

I lived in a bad neighborhood,
associated with my neighbors
am I complisit with their crimes?

It's about detainment/confinement
do you want pyscopath killers
who would kill you for a dime
living next door?

abaya · 12-12-2005, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alpha phi

It's about detainment/confinement
do you want pyscopath killers
who would kill you for a dime
living next door?

Precisely. It's about confinement, not about death. Did anyone say this guy was gonna be living next door to you? The point of the clemency would have been for him to be imprisoned for life, not to be put to death. He would not have walked free.

Elphaba · 12-12-2005, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by maleficent

Give the European and Canadian members a chance to weigh in...

Or any other democracy, Mal. We are the last Democracy to stand by capital punishment in the "civilized" world.

Mal knows me well from a prior time when I would have gladly participated in the killing of a murderer. Ten years have passed since then and I am greatful that I never had the chance to exact my "revenge."

How is it that we remain the last democracy to champion the death of an inmate as justice, but an abortion of a zygote is equated with murder? Can anyone explain this contradiction in pro-life terms to me?

My personal belief is that our government should not assume God-like powers over life or death, in some sort of old testiment justice of eye-for-an-eye. More importantly, the constitution spells out the right of the states over the federal government. I am adament about reducing federal government intrusion, and I am fully in support of state rights to self-government.

Stompy · 12-12-2005, 07:59 PM

While I understand the point of people who are against capital punishment, I see no other alternative.

It's not like people are being executed for trivial things - this guy took it upon himself to remove people from this existence. IMO, he lost all of his rights as a citizen at that point. I see no probs with executing him on the spot. Case closed, sentenced handed... bullet in the brain. Save the time and money.

People might argue, "What right does anyone have to take HIS life?" Well, either way, he's in prison for life. His life is already over except for the fact he's still conscious. Why keep such a being alive?

Of course, there are people in prison for life for other less important crimes (such as drug smuggling), but that argument of "exessive sentencing" is for another thread.

Cynthetiq · 12-12-2005, 08:00 PM

He should have been the man that he is now before he bothered to kill those people.

Be the change you want in the world.

Elphaba · 12-12-2005, 08:01 PM

And yet, he will be killed in a few hours. How does a nation founded in christianity, not give any value to the life of of this man, and ignore that Williams' justice is in the hands of God? When did we receive the order of executioner?

I have no respect for this man, but he will be judged and so shall we.

Stompy · 12-12-2005, 08:04 PM

Because church and state are separate?

We became executioner the very second he committed a crime against society and lost his rights as a citizen.

[edit]
I think if everything was REALLY based on Christian ideals, all a murderer would have to do to be given a second chance at life is "repent to Jesus" and pretend to be sorry. I don't think that'd be such a good idea!

Elphaba · 12-12-2005, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cynthetiq

He should have been the man that he is now before he bothered to kill those people.

Be the change you want in the world.

Thank you.

Ustwo · 12-12-2005, 08:10 PM

Hey a guy faced with death turns a new leaf?

Gee go figure.

Don't care, the only thing unfortunate is it took so long to execute him.

Elphaba · 12-12-2005, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stompy

Because church and state are separate?

We became executioner the very second he committed a crime against society and lost his rights as a citizen.

Uh, no. We have legally chosen to renew the death penalty, and he never lost his rights as a citizen. I don't get your point, unless you have confused my personal viewpoint with law.

I would like an explanation about why the death of a zygote is murder, but the death of a man is not. It's a very simple question that doesn't involve church v. state.

Stompy · 12-12-2005, 08:14 PM

I don't think the death of a zygote is murder, nor do I think the execution of this man is murder, so I think you're askin the wrong person

Sho Nuff · 12-12-2005, 08:17 PM

I voted I dont know because it depends largely on the people he killed. He is worth more to society alive than he is dead because of the way he has changed his life. For that reason his murders of other gang members are pardonable because they chose to put themselves in a position to be murdered. However, murders of innocents cannot be excused, and those he should die for regardless of the restitution hes made.

Stompy · 12-12-2005, 08:21 PM

...and I think he did lose his rights, otherwise he wouldn't be getting executed. People who murder should have their rights taken away. They defied the very society that's giving them rights, so why should he retain em?

It's just my opinion that at the point when he chose to take someone else's life, the life of his own was not his anymore and instead is left up to the state to decide. If they decide execution, then so be it. I just don't understand why there was such a long wait. I mean.. how long does it take to inject someone?

slant eyes · 12-12-2005, 08:28 PM

he chose a path to walk and committed the crimes with full knowledge of what may happen. he removed at least 4 people who contribute to society from the face of the earth and his only contribution then was the founding of the Crips. in essence we are trading those 4 lives for his 1 -- which i don't even think is fair at all.

those arguing against execution saying that his execution doesn't bring back the dead. but in the same sense, if i ran a stop light and caused this huge accident, me paying fines and what not does nothing to reverse the effects, why pay? are we going to do away with the whole system because it doesn't reverse anything? no. it was the understood consequence of my action and i have to learn to deal with them.

he killed at least 4 people. are we for sure he has conformed? we talk about the potential positive effects he may have on society if released but have we stopped to think about the negative effects?

keeping him in prison for the rest of his life? in an already crowded prison system?

View Poll Results: Should Tookie be executed?
Yes	67	58.26%
No	34	29.57%
I don't know	14	12.17%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

12-12-2005, 03:56 PM	#2 (permalink)
maleficent Junkie Moderator Emeritus Location: Chicago	He's being executed for the crimes that he committed... not for the person that he's become... The nobel prize nomination is a nice touch... but truthfully anyone could be nominated for the nobel prize... __________________ Free your heart from hatred. Free your mind from worries. Live simply. Give more. Expect less.

12-12-2005, 04:20 PM	#7 (permalink)
alpha phi seeker Location: home	I don't care eitherway if the guy get executed. Even if he's not guilty for the crimes he was convicted on He's guilty of many others I'm just watching for the riots to start. wondering if we will see the protests turn to insanity. __________________ All ideas in this communication are sole property of the voices in my head. (C) 2005, 2006, 2007, 2008, 2009 "The Voices" (TM). All rights reserved.

12-12-2005, 04:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	Maybe for me it's less about the person and more about the death penalty in general. I guess I am working it out as I think through this. Hell, I don't even know what I would vote, but I have my leanings. I guess I am surprised that there are so few on TFP who are against capital punishment. __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

12-12-2005, 04:47 PM	#12 (permalink)
ziadel Myrmidon Location: In the twilight and mist.	they're gonna kill him and I'm glad for it and the reasons are two-fold: one - he deserves it. two - there is going to be a riot over this, good opportunity to test some of my what if scenarios through watching an honest to goodness riot. I believe he has changed as a person, I think he's done a lot of good, but that's between him and whatever god he believes in. __________________ Ron Paul '08 Vote for Freedom Go ahead and google Dr. Ron Paul. You'll like what you read.

12-12-2005, 04:01 PM	#3 (permalink)
radioguy Registered User Location: Texas	i've got to agree with maleficent. he was this person when he committed the crimes...people change, but that doesn't mean they aren't responsible for what they did previously. oh, and i voted yes.

12-12-2005, 04:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Uh, he is living out the rest of his life in prison.

12-12-2005, 04:37 PM	#10 (permalink)
maximusveritas Winner	I'm against the death penalty in all cases, so I don't think he should be executed. At the same time, I don't see anything special about Mr.Williams other than that he has some celebrity friends, so it would have been ridiculous to offer him clemency without offering it to every other inmate.

12-12-2005, 04:48 PM	#13 (permalink)
AngelicVampire Insane	European: He is being executed for what he did, in my mind premeditated murder (as well as a few other crimes) provided the proof behind the conviction is complete (ie: they are most assuredly guilty not just mostly guilty) then the death penalty is the correct punishment, to remove the human rights of another is to remove them from yourself... I can't consider people who delibrately kill others (not war scenarios etc) to truly deserve human rights anymore. Look at the failed suicide bombers, the first thing they do is claim their human rights, which they denied to others, leave em to the crowd and justice would be done.

12-12-2005, 05:57 PM	#17 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Nothing that I say or think on the subject matters whatsoever. I can get up on my soapbox and rant about the death penalty, or rehabilitation, or any of the many things I believe regarding this case, but in the end he will die in three hours. Nothing short of an extremely successful armed revolt will prevent that, and there isn't enough support for that to happen. All we can do is either silently or vocally condone this, or to silently or vocally disagree with those in power who couldn't care less about what we think.

12-12-2005, 06:02 PM	#18 (permalink)
Rubyee I'm baaaaack!	I don't think that he should be offered clemency. He killed. There is no doubt that he didn't. It is great that he is sorry and has changed, but you can't unkill someone. I can't say that I am against the death penalty. Do I wish that there was a better way? Yes, I do. But the only reason I am for the death penalty is because I have to pay for the criminals living their lives out in prison. I buy their meals, their clothes, pay their utilities. I know that living in prison isn't by far a luxury lifestyle, but I am still paying for it. I may not live in California, but I don't want to pay for this guy to live in prison for the rest of his life because he has changed. Like I said, I wish there was a better way. Maybe the US should get an Austraila. __________________ You don't know from fun.

12-12-2005, 06:08 PM	#19 (permalink)
abaya Location: Iceland	So what IS the point of a correctional system? when it actually works, and we still kill people... is it some need for revenge? What are the ramifications of building a society on revenge? Where is the line between revenge and justice? Is there room for grace? __________________ And think not you can direct the course of Love; for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course. --Khalil Gibran

12-12-2005, 06:19 PM	#23 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Whatever happened to "SWIFT and just." he shouldn't have been given the chance to become a different person. If he was going to be excecuted for his crimes, it should have been done 20 years ago. How's a death sentence 20 years after the fact a deterrent,which I think is the most compelling argument for capital punishment. That and people like that dude who molested and buried that little girl alive in Florida. Letting guilty people out who go on to kill more innocent people seems to happen with far greater frequency than putting innocent people to death. Anway - something about the whole situation is unsettling to me. I chose "I don't know"

12-12-2005, 06:38 PM	#25 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	I voted "no" I just don't see how society will be served by his death. Here we have a person with some capacity to effect positive change in the world, and we're going to extinguish him. His death may or may not bring comfort to the relative of his victims, but it's definately going to demoralize those who he has pledged to help. That's a lost opportunity and a real shame. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

12-12-2005, 07:59 PM	#30 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	While I understand the point of people who are against capital punishment, I see no other alternative. It's not like people are being executed for trivial things - this guy took it upon himself to remove people from this existence. IMO, he lost all of his rights as a citizen at that point. I see no probs with executing him on the spot. Case closed, sentenced handed... bullet in the brain. Save the time and money. People might argue, "What right does anyone have to take HIS life?" Well, either way, he's in prison for life. His life is already over except for the fact he's still conscious. Why keep such a being alive? Of course, there are people in prison for life for other less important crimes (such as drug smuggling), but that argument of "exessive sentencing" is for another thread. __________________ I love lamp.

12-12-2005, 08:00 PM	#31 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	He should have been the man that he is now before he bothered to kill those people. Be the change you want in the world. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

12-12-2005, 08:01 PM	#32 (permalink)
Elphaba Deja Moo Location: Olympic Peninsula, WA	And yet, he will be killed in a few hours. How does a nation founded in christianity, not give any value to the life of of this man, and ignore that Williams' justice is in the hands of God? When did we receive the order of executioner? I have no respect for this man, but he will be judged and so shall we.

12-12-2005, 08:04 PM	#33 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	Because church and state are separate? We became executioner the very second he committed a crime against society and lost his rights as a citizen. [edit] I think if everything was REALLY based on Christian ideals, all a murderer would have to do to be given a second chance at life is "repent to Jesus" and pretend to be sorry. I don't think that'd be such a good idea! __________________ I love lamp. Last edited by Stompy; 12-12-2005 at 08:08 PM..

12-12-2005, 08:10 PM	#35 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Hey a guy faced with death turns a new leaf? Gee go figure. Don't care, the only thing unfortunate is it took so long to execute him. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

12-12-2005, 08:14 PM	#37 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	I don't think the death of a zygote is murder, nor do I think the execution of this man is murder, so I think you're askin the wrong person __________________ I love lamp.

12-12-2005, 08:17 PM	#38 (permalink)
Sho Nuff Addict Location: Harlem	I voted I dont know because it depends largely on the people he killed. He is worth more to society alive than he is dead because of the way he has changed his life. For that reason his murders of other gang members are pardonable because they chose to put themselves in a position to be murdered. However, murders of innocents cannot be excused, and those he should die for regardless of the restitution hes made. __________________ I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

12-12-2005, 08:21 PM	#39 (permalink)
Stompy Banned from being Banned Location: Donkey	...and I think he did lose his rights, otherwise he wouldn't be getting executed. People who murder should have their rights taken away. They defied the very society that's giving them rights, so why should he retain em? It's just my opinion that at the point when he chose to take someone else's life, the life of his own was not his anymore and instead is left up to the state to decide. If they decide execution, then so be it. I just don't understand why there was such a long wait. I mean.. how long does it take to inject someone? __________________ I love lamp.

12-12-2005, 08:28 PM	#40 (permalink)
slant eyes Psycho Location: cali	he chose a path to walk and committed the crimes with full knowledge of what may happen. he removed at least 4 people who contribute to society from the face of the earth and his only contribution then was the founding of the Crips. in essence we are trading those 4 lives for his 1 -- which i don't even think is fair at all. those arguing against execution saying that his execution doesn't bring back the dead. but in the same sense, if i ran a stop light and caused this huge accident, me paying fines and what not does nothing to reverse the effects, why pay? are we going to do away with the whole system because it doesn't reverse anything? no. it was the understood consequence of my action and i have to learn to deal with them. he killed at least 4 people. are we for sure he has conformed? we talk about the potential positive effects he may have on society if released but have we stopped to think about the negative effects? keeping him in prison for the rest of his life? in an already crowded prison system? __________________ no man or woman is worth your tears - and the one who is, won't make you cry question authority, don't ask why, just do it!